Hal 9000

Very well. I am unafraid.

Stand aside, I have no time for this nonsense. Let me pass.

Yeah, I guess.

I must cross this bridge. Go back to the shadow; the dark fire will not avail you.

Phil Dragash, Kerr and myself are collaborating for a revamping of the three-film fan edit of LOTR. This will, by the way, coincide with an HD version of Kerr's book cuts. (Kerr is doing most of the actual editing this time, for which I am thankful.)

From the beginning, I had wanted to make two sets of LOTR fan edits. The first was to be akin to the TTT Purist Cut that had circulated the internet since 2002. The other was to be akin to Phil Dragash’s abandoned book cuts (later taken up and greatly exceeded by Kerr’s own book cuts).
The 3-film formatted edits, hitherto known as Sharkey’s Purist Edits, did not concern themselves with the narrative structure but sought to make the films ‘historically accurate’ in that the content itself was to be made to fit into a puristy mindset. The POV still shuffles across many narrative strands at once, and even some things not portrayed in the main body of LOTR (such as the romance of Aragorn and Arwen) were included (although that particular example still needed much work to make it puristy enough to be kept). To me, the 3-film fan edit must be something suitable for theatrical exhibition and for a hypothetical first time viewer. It must not feel like anything other than a polished film in and of itself. For these reasons, the nature of the 3-film fan edit prevents it from being as puristy as a 6-part one. 
The 6-part ‘book cut’ fan edit can be free to go hog wild. Much more can be done with this one in the way of puristy alterations that would not work as well in a 3-film structure. Most notably, the narrative structure of the films is forced into the template laid out by the book, and is given an episodic or serial feel. An example is the literal “eye” of Sauron floating atop Barad-dûr. In a six part narrative that follows a specific strand is able to afford the lack of a clear, central antagonistic presence. However, an earlier attempt at including the removal of the eye left the film trilogy lacking, so I reluctantly re-included it and I think the edits are better off for it. 


We are in the planning stages, gathering ideas and throwing mockups together. Any new ideas will be considered. 

Release date is unknown, and will probably be a ways off. Kerr is still waiting for his new computer, necessary for editing in HD. The final format will most likely be AVCHD discs, possibly two per film if it makes sense.

While there are many new edits we are planning to make, the single largest is the removal of the literal floating eye of Sauron. I have wavered on this point in the past, but intend on maintaining this purist point.

Here is a brief list of some of the changes we are considering:


If it is fluid and does not cause issues, it would be nice to trim some of the prologue’s racism toward men: “… who above all else desire power” and “but the hearts of men are easily corrupted.”

Cut Sauron stepping on Narsil, implying that Isildur swung a full sword and Sauron. 


Merry and Pippin fooling around with Gandalf’s fireworks has to go. Hopefully, with a little sound effect replacement, we can keep the actual dragon firework. But Merry and Pippin’s horrible introduction has to be cut even if it means losing the dragon firework altogether, I think.


Have the Black Rider that rides by Maggot say only “Baggins” and not “Shire.” This makes the Black Riders seem less incompetent, and less like zombies moaning, “braaaains.” 


Cut Sam holding Frodo’s hand back. Frodo resists the call of the ring on his own.

Include Kerr's edits that make Bree less scary.

If it can be done without issue, remove Aragorn’s line “blinded by their greed” from his description of the Nazgul. Less racism toward men, which fuels Aragorn’s excised doubt subplot.

I would like to find a better way to transition from Frodo passing out to him waking up in Rivendell that doesn’t include the weird images we get in the film. If nothing else, at least make sure Arwen’s prayer is gone.

I am always perplexed at the scene where Frodo reunites with Merry and Pippin. I can understand why M and P are so excited and happy (because Frodo is okay) but why is Frodo so over-the-top with silly happiness? I don’t suppose anything can be done about it.

The main bit of Elrond’s racism that remains thus far in these edits is his scornful description of Isildur to Gandalf and generalization of men being too weak. The only way I can imagine keeping this backstory of Isildur while discarding the baggage would be to bake the Isildur backstory into the Council of Elrond. I doubt it can be done fluidly, but I can live with a little bit of racism from Elrond if I have to.

I think we should just throw out the scene at Aragorn’s mother’s grave, rather than salvage bits of it as I had done.

Cut the scene from the EE as the Fellowship approaches Moria, because it adds to the strong suspicion of Boromir that we are trying to tone down.

Cut Merry and Pippin throwing rocks into the water and Aragorn chastising them for it. In the book, Boromir was the one throwing rocks, so it’s not an innately foolish thing, and it only serves to further characterize Merry and Pippin as idiots.

I was skeptical of cutting the 'dead dwarves' at the entrance of Moria, but Kerr did it so well that I support it now.

I don’t suppose we could, but it’d be cool to make Glamdring glow blue as well.

Several strange lines in Lorien will be cut, such as "The Enemy knows you have entered here," and "We shall not meet again."

If it can be done without seeming like an obvious edit, I’d like to remove the scene where Aragorn lets Frodo go and the subsequent distraction by Merry and Pippin. But only if it is fluid and works well. (I tried a few mockups, but they all fell flat. The Uruks appear to come out of nowhere, and that’s not good.)

Cut Grima and Eowyn’s scene with the line “Oh, he must have died sometime in the night.” It is fabricated and appropriates Aragorn’s loving words as Grima’s cruelty. 

Removing the Aragorn and Arwen dream scene; I don't know why I left it in the first place.

As in Kerr's edits, remove Frodo's lies about Gollum to Faramir.

Throughout the battle, trim extraneous shots of women and children when easily done.

Use the theatrical version of the Gollum interrogation, as it is less harsh on Faramir.

Cut Legolas taking a cheap shot at a dead orc to even his score with Gimli. (I’d be willing to lose this scene altogether if it’d make for a more effective transition to Faramir’s contemplation scene that uses the boat dream scene.)

The parley with Saruman will be different. The 'information' sub-plot will be crippled, Saruman won't express knowledge of Frodo's mission, nor of Aragorn's identity.

Cut the scene with Aragorn and Legolas on the balcony, as it serves to remind the audience of things as the third movie begins, whereas it now is at the end of the second film and is not needed.

As a rule, we'll be removing as much of Gothmog as we possibly can.

As the soldiers march out of the citadel to ride to Osgiliath, cut the shot of some producer’s kids who were hobbits earlier.

Cut Gimli interrupting Aragorn staring down the mountainside at the king of the dead.

General note. I wonder if it’d be doable to darken Minas Tirith and the surrounding geography as Sauron sends the clouds forth. Phil did something like this in his unfinished edit of Book V, though neither of us still have it. (I lost a few CD spindles full of this sort of precious junk when I moved.)

If easily done, cut any cries of, “Fire!”

If it can be done well, possibly darken Shelob's lair. It would make Galadriel's gift relevant, rather than drawing Shelob near right away.

Possibly featuring Phil Dragash as the voice of the Witch-King of Angmar.

Cut the shot of the Dead sweeping across the citidel. Lessens the damage of the deus ex machina.

Cut Aragorn murdering the Mouth of Sauron.

As long as it will work in the context of a 3-film edit that cuts across the various narratives, I’d like to have the ring apparently be destroyed right as it hits the lava. (This might not be doable, given the need to cut back and forth.)

This may be an outrageous and unfeasible idea, but brainstorming never hurts. What if we could stretch Merry and Pippin to be just a little taller during the few shots where all four hobbits stand together?

Cut away from the coronation scene just before Frodo’s dry lips cleave. It only requires shaving half a second of footage, and the audio could be smoothed over anywhere in the next thirty seconds as it need not sync to anything else on screen for a little while.

Butter pats.

"But... that's... not-the-way-it-happened."

bigmonkey2382 said:

 lucas but raped our childhood.

Fixed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCZrdNBBxMA

Will this sound be somewhere in your edit?

Catnip for the pussy

Fishstick

Chigger

Holy hell, are you guys about to get the thread announcing that the forum is unmoderated LOCKED?

Yeah, you all shaddup you face!

Whoa, perfect job with those sabers!

Nailed it.

lol, sorry. I was just about to go edit my post but I see that you already noted that my suggestion was already suggested by someone who suggested it before I suggested it.

That being said, I'm glad it'll be in the edit. Strikes the perfect tone right off the bat.

Want to use this maybe?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUm8wtDQgTU&feature=mh_lolz&list=FLGoAAiS8_gofE5D_6EEho6Q

"Mark, how ya doing? It's George Lucas. Just wondering if you wanted to come in today and re-shoot the ending of Return of the Jedi?"

http://flappingcrane.com/rotj.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0Asjh-HjRE

Okay, now I've seen the rest too. Comments:

You cut Bilbo's freakout when he sees the ring again, as well as his ensuing remorse. Why? It happens in the book and there's nothing un-purist about it. It makes for a harsh transition to the next scene too.

You removed Frodo asking Gandalf if Mordor is "left or right," which I felt was an appropriate illustration of Frodo's need for the company. Also, pacing.

You cut Merry and Pippin's antics with Boromir as they are practicing swordplay. This is okay, though it does build a relationship with the one who will save their lives. I can go either way.

The scene on the mountainside with Boromir picking up the ring is gone, which has pros and cons. It eliminates some of the suspicion building about Boromir, but we lose a poignant comment about the importance of the ring. I'd leave it in, but it's not necessarily a bad thing to lose it.

I agree about removing the conversation from the EE between Gandalf and Boromir about the weight of the ring, Frodo's shoulder, and a growing threat from within the fellowship. It removes some of the suspicion of Boromir. Plus it's kind of a dead weight scene anyway.

You removed Merry and Pippin throwing rocks, and Aragorn warning them not to disturb the waters. This is all right, but we lose what little of the buildup to the Watcher we are given. In the book it was Boromir who was throwing rocks, so I agree that I don't like having Merry and Pippin do it. It just makes them look juvenile.

You removed the "tomb" aspect to the entrance of Moria. This causes continuity and pacing problems, causing more harm than good.

You cut Pippin squeezing a skeleton, having the fall caused by him accidentally bumping it instead. Quite a clever edit; I like this one!

You cut the cave troll altogether. I trimmed it heavily, but having it totally gone removes the payoff of the Mithril subplot. :(

You removed the fellowship being surrounded by orcs, but this is jarring.

You cut Gandalf telling Aragorn to lead them on. This is thematically important. I suppose you meant not to imply that Aragorn needed to be told this.

You cut Frodo freaking out as Gandalf dangles over the bridge. I don't object to this in principle, but it's very difficult to hack up the movie's "guitar solo" and have it feel smooth.

When Frodo looks into the mirror of Galadriel, he immediately sees the Eye. I understand that since Sam wasn't present he couldn't see the Shire, but this way it looks like Galadriel was being a jerk. As soon as he peers in, there's the Eye screaming at him.

I like the removal of the line, "It is what will come to pass if you should fail." That is not true at all. Why didn't I think of that? (As long as it can be done smoothly.)

You removed most of Galadriel's speech about what she'd do with the ring. I agree that the film makes it look strange, but it's totally valid. I sure wouldn't cut it.

You removed the introduction to the elven bread as well as Merry and Pippin's associated antics. I'd cut the latter and not the former.

Sam doesn't ask Galadriel for a dagger, and this makes him seem less impolite. So, that's good, it fluid.

You cut Gimli's fluttering in answer to Galadriel, which I could go either way on.

You cut Galadriel's line about not seeing Aragorn again. In the film's version, this is true. In the book, they do meet again at the wedding. Meh, either way is consistent with itself.

You cut Gimli's complaining at Aragorn's directions, which I like. Shut up, Worf.

You totally cut 100% of the closing orc battle. We just suddenly see Aragorn run up to the dying Boromir. It makes no sense to the viewer, and is bad pacing. I'd be okay with this change in principle maybe, but not in practicality.

That being said, there are some truly good ideas in there! I hope you do another one for TTT and ROTK. I'd like to do another version of these edits in HD, but I do not have the hardware or the skill to do so. I'd feel kind of silly going back and updating these edits with anything less than HD at this point. So I think it'll have to wait.

But you never know.

All right, I just watched the first six of your videos. Some nice ideas! A lot of them probably wouldn’t be possible because it leaves the end result choppy and harsh. I had a hard time with some edits, even giving up on them because it couldn’t be done without sticking out like a sore thumb. I’d like to comment on some of the changes you made, and get some insight from you about your logic behind them. I may need to go back and do an updated version to incorporate these ideas!

(In the following reactions, I ask some questions and can seem harsh. I only want to know your thoughts behind each edit, that’s all. Also, once or twice I refer to Kerr’s book cuts. Have you seen them too? If not, check ‘em out!)

You removed most of the “racism” toward men, both on the part of the opening narration and from Elrond. I like this. 

You removed Sauron smacking soldiers around, and made Isildur look more competent by not having Sauron step on Narsil. These are both good ideas, and something I’d want to play with and make sure it can be done smoothly. 

You removed two instances of a Hobbit picking his ear. Good idea, as long as it can be done fluidly. 

You cut Frodo telling Gandalf that he’s late, but left his reply. Is Gandalf just supposed to know what he’s thinking? It also leaves a jump cut mid-shot. 

You removed Bilbo musing that “there’s always been a Baggins under the hill…” Why was this?

You removed Frodo telling Gandalf that he’s been labelled “a disturber of the peace.” Why? I’d say that’s a pretty accurate statement.

You removed Gandalf’s ‘forthcoming’ firework display for the kids, yet left in the laughter. This makes it look like he’s just a mean old man, and isn’t a good idea. We would have to cut the whole bit, kids and all, if we were to remove the forthcoming fireworks. I don’t think it’s a big deal anyway; in the book the narrator can just tell us that he does fireworks, but in the movie we see them shortly. No biggie, but it’s one of those things that I would edit out if it can be done totally smoothly. It’s a purist change to make, but one of no consequence.

You removed Gandalf’s head bump, which I had done in a previous version of Sharkey’s edit. I put it back in because I liked it, so I could go either way on this one. You also snipped Bilbo talking with his mouth full, which is a good idea.

You removed two instances of Sam and Rosie: you cut Frodo getting Sam to dance with her, as well as Sam’s defense of her as they leave the pub later. Why is this? I know it isn’t in the book, but it helps set up their relationship at the very end. It’s nice to be able to think back to these things and remember that we’ve “met” this girl before, and it’s not like Sam just picks a person that we’ve never seen. I’d say leave these bits in.

You trimmed part of Bilbo’s troll story and I can’t figure out why.

You removed Merry and Pippin jacking with the fireworks, which I had tried many times to do but could not without it looking choppy and/or removing the “big” firework. I will try to take your order of editing and see if it can be done nicely. On second thought, it might just be worth it even if we have to lose the big firework altogether.

You cut Gandalf peering down at the ring at Bilbo’s door and the “flash” of the eye of Sauron. The problem with that is that it is what launches Gandalf into his deep thought and hurrying off to research it. For that reason I suggest it stay, because, though it is a purist change to make, it messes up the film’s logical progression. And it’s not a big deal anyway.

You cut the Nazgul departing Barad-dur. This allows the viewer to learn about this stuff from Gandalf and Saruman telling us in later dialogue. However, the music transition may not work well. Plus, it’s not a purist change to make. So I’m not sure about this edit.

I noticed that you re-ordered part of the scroll of Isildur for some reason, also removing the incorrect year. I’d leave the year there for pacing reasons. Please explain why you moved parts of Isildur’s scroll around, as I’m sure there’s a reason that I just don’t realize.

I do like that you had the Black Rider say, “Baggins” only, and not “Shire.” It makes it seem like he knows what he’s asking, rather than just being a mindless zombie running around yelling, “Brains!”

You trimmed Saruman taking a shot at Gandalf for enjoying Hobbit weed. This makes sense, since it turns out that Saruman had a love of the leaf as well. However, I always appreciated the line as a hypocritical thing for him to say. I say leave this line in, because it makes him look like a hypocrite, and I believe this is in on purpose.

(Here’s a clip from Unfinished Tales: Yet in truth Saruman's spying and great secrecy [concerning the Shire - H-I] had not in the beginning any evil purpose, but was no more than a folly born of pride. Small matters, unworthy it would seem to be reported, may yet prove of great moment ere the end. Now truth to tell, observing Gandalf's love of the herb that he called "pipe-weed" (for which, he said, if for nothing else, the Little People should be honoured), Saruman had affected to scoff at it, but in private he made trial of it, and soon began to use it; and for tins reason the Shire remained important to him. Yet he dreaded lest this should be discovered, and his own mockery turned against him, so that he would be laughed at for imitating Gandalf, and scorned for doing so by stealth. This then was the reason for his great secrecy in all his dealings with the Shire even from the first before any shadow of doubt had fallen upon it, and it was little guarded, free for those who wished to enter. For this reason also Saruman ceased to go thither in person; for it came to his knowledge that he had not been all unobserved by the keen-eyed Halflings, and some, seeing the figure as it were of an old man clad in grey or russet stealing through the woods or passing through the dusk, had mistaken him for Gandalf.)

I like that you removed some of the “The nine? OMG Frodo!” because it is old news to the audience.

I agree that the wizard fight should be removed, and I dislike Merry and Pippin’s somewhat silly meeting with Frodo and Sam. However, jump-cutting away from both of them leaves problems of both pacing and logic. Where did they pick up Merry and Pippin? I would prefer to shorten the wizard fight, but I was even unable to do this without problem. Sorry, but I don’t think this good idea is doable.

You shortened the tension with their first encounter with a Rider, which I thought was too short. The Rider gets down, sniffs, and then just flies away. 

You cut Merry’s line “That rider was looking for something or someone.” Why? Just to lessen their role? It’s not a big deal, but I could see cutting it if it can be done smoothly.

You cut two sections of “scarey” people in Bree, a philosophical choice I agree with. The “scarey” walk to Bree is safely cut, and can be done just fine. Kerr was able to edit out the scarey faces as Frodo slips into thought before Pippin calls him out at being a Baggins. So I know it can be done, and I like it.

You removed the silliness around Pippin wanting to get a pint, which I agree if it can be done smoothly. However, removing too much of Merry and Pippin can have the adverse effect of making them seem useless and for sucking too much of the life out of the film. I remember when a friend of mine agreed to watch Sharkey’s edit with me, he asked me “Did you remove a lot of the humor from the film?” I told him I had kept most of it.

Why did you remove Strider’s line, “Are you frightened? Not nearly frightened enough!”? I liked that one.

Haha, I like your idea to make it look like the gatekeeper let the Nazgul into Bree. I laughed out loud at the ingenuity. I’m not so sure it can be done believably, but I’d be in favor of it if it could. This is another example of a purist change to make, but doesn’t have any consequence.

You removed Aragorn describing the Nazgul as having been blinded by greed, another great way to remove the subtle hints at the larger theme of men being weak.

You removed Pippin’s concern about not having all his meals, which I feel is too humorous and characterizing to cut. I’d cut some of their other antics, but not this one.

You removed the Lay of Lúthien! Why? Even if (though I wouldn’t want to) we totally removed almost all of the Arwen love story, it’s okay to hear the Lay of Lúthien, as we do in the book anyway. It could still be a subtle insight into the woman he does eventually marry, even if the viewer doesn’t spend much time with her.

You removed Aragorn telling the hobbits to stay put while he looks around. This is subtle, but it removes some hobbit condescension. Bravo on this one!

I like how you were able to make the hobbits’ fire look merely like a fire, and not have Frodo freak out over it. I’d still want to play with it but I think this one is doable.

You removed the next cut to Gandalf entirely, removing the viewer seeing orcs equipping for war. You also removed Gandalf’s later conversation with Elrond about what he saw. I can understand cutting one or the other, but not both. It’s good to see Saruman equipping for war, especially since I already removed his efforts being directly ordered by Sauron. This way he is more of his own entity in this fight. 

You had an interesting idea with the flood, editing in some of Elrond’s voice. I see the logic, but I don’t think it could be done convincingly. The only thing I could see would be to just cut Arwen’s chanting and let the floods come on their own and let us wonder why. 

I’d love to find a better way to transition between Frodo passing out and Frodo waking up. I’m not sure a jump cut is the answer, but it’s about as good as what’s there already.

I like the idea of removing some of Saruman’s temptations for Gandalf to join with Sauron, again because it makes it more like he’s an independent player. As long as it can be done smoothly.

I agree with your decision to edit out the scene in Rivendell where Sam and Frodo seem to think they’re done with the ring and can just go home. By this point Frodo had known for a while that he was going to have to take the ring to Mordor.

I’d be okay with removing most of Gandalf and Elrond’s conversation, since it makes it look like Elrond doesn’t care about Middle Earth. I think we’d need to include a little of it just so that it can smoothly transition to the council of Elrond.

Because we lose that conversation, baking Elrond’s flashback to Isildur into the Council of Elrond makes sense and could probably be done smoothly enough. 

I understand your reasons for shifting parts of the Council around, but it leaves pacing problems.

You cut Gimli’s attempt at destroying the ring, which is all right. I’d do this as long as I can see that it is smooth. We do loose a visual lesson about how the ring can be destroyed, but we already get an additional mention of the only way to destroy it in this scene due to the flashback of Isildur.

I know it’s a deviation from the book, but I can’t see cutting the shouting match at the Council. Having Frodo bolt up and volunteer causes continuity and pacing problems.

I would not mind cutting Merry and Pippin’s silliness, but I’m not sure I can without problems of music and such.

nvm

Whoa! I just logged in and will begin watching these at once.

These pressing school assignments can wait, this is too important. I'll let you know what I think after I've seen them!

TV's Frink said:

Wow.

Now if only they could fix the SE Glitch.

Actual LOL