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It’s so weird to me that people see Luke vs. Guards as something other than a force choke.
I personally never thought Luke used the Force in Episode IV
Luke used the force to aim at the Death Star exhaust port (Ben told him “use the force, Luke” and then he turned off his targeting computer).
Yeah well I thought he just basically relied on his instincts, just like Anakin in Episode I, not used the force to literally aim the torpedo etc.
While time dilation is a real thing I don’t think it happens here, plus it doesn’t really fit with SW. In Empire I assumed the journey took much longer since the Falcon had to travel slowly, then Luke jumped into light speed and arrived a lot faster at Bespin. It also means Leia and Han had more time to grow on each other. At a guess… a month. Unless we believe that each piece of training is one day.
In TLJ I’m sure that 3 tests = 3 days = same 72 hours of fuel that the Resistance flagship had. I can’t be certain.
ROTS… 9 weeks? Who really cares.
I thought the cruiser had 18h of fuel left.
Besides the frequently criticized Mace Windu action scene is seen through the eyes of a young boy. It’s indeed not supposed to be realistic but to represent the Jedi as a Legend (something someone else did on a very recent SW flick by the way 😉).
There’s also Yoda literally wrecking huge tanks without any effort in Coruscant, which contrasts with the not incredibly easy time he had taking the X-Wing out of the water.
I personally never thought Luke used the Force in Episode IV and never thought Anakin used the Force in Episode I. I think I might be the only one to think this way on this site.
So because of this, I think Rey being as powerful as she was in TFA was absurd. And it continues through TLJ.
TFA:
- mind trick out of her ***
- beating Kylo Ren’s force pull
- beating Kylo Ren period.
TLJ:
- it bothered me a little bit how she was so instantly connected to the force in the scene where Luke explains it to her, but at the same time I think it’s not a valid complaint.
- she beats Luke
- she kicks everyone’s *** in the throne room for no reason
- she can lift 10x more rocks than Luke even after Luke had several training sessions and Luke had an extremely high potential to be powerful with the force too.
Aye, she really kicked Snoke’s arse in the throne room alright. She was that powerful if it wasn’t for the greed and lust for power of Ren that she’d be dead.
Well, I was talking about the guards.
I personally never thought Luke used the Force in Episode IV and never thought Anakin used the Force in Episode I. I think I might be the only one to think this way on this site.
So because of this, I think Rey being as powerful as she was in TFA was absurd. And it continues through TLJ.
TFA:
TLJ:
Edit: also, in-universe Star Wars always seemed to me like a very equal place in terms of sexism. Neither men nor women have any duty or are viewed in a certain way simply because of the fact that they’re men/women. You see both as equals in all films.
But I still think women were severely misrepresented in the OT, and in the PT, to lesser extent.
I’d say there’s an invisible logical barrier, where an audience member would stop believing in what the force can or cannot do.
That’s why the 2D 2003 Clone Wars cartoon is quite stupid sometimes, it just makes the force a videogame device to several characters which makes it all look stupid. Of course, it was somewhat of the intention of the show.
The largest thing someone moves with the force in the movies is Yoda moving the X-Wing, and he apparently had to really focus and he’s the most powerful force user alive. So if all of a sudden Obi-Wan was moving Star Destroyers with his mind it would’ve been weird.
That’s the “invisible logical barrier” thing. I don’t know exactly where it is, but at some point I know I’d stop believing in what characters can do with the force.
Rey kicking Kylo’s butt makes him seem very weak period. Plus there is no plausible explanation. But this thread isn’t the place for this kind of discussion.
Not if you’re watching revisited RotJ once it comes out in 2028! 😄
I’m thinking you could have asked this question in either of…
the ‘General Star Wars Random Thoughts’ thread
or
the ‘General Star Wars Questions’ thread
😉
Ok, I will.
Thanks!!
I’m really not sure about RotS. I always figured it would be a month, maybe more because Padme gives birth in the final scene and in the first scene she basically tells Anakin she just found out she’s pregnant.
TESB I’d say a couple of months, but that wouldn’t really make complete sense. But if it was only a few days it would make even less sense.
What do you guys think?
[cue several (more) pages of complaints about Rey still being a Mary Sue]
Don’t you think that final scene where she lifts all the rocks undermines the one in TESB, where Luke struggles so much to do the same thing?
Edit: and I loved how she’s a nobody. Her parents being special would’ve been no excuse for her unrealistic abilities.
Wow this was a funny coincidence.
I think the need to tell vs. show comes down to what matters to the story. Which matters more, what came before or what is happening now? The dialog satisfied me. Luke saw a darkness that scared him and instinctively drew and ignited his lightsaber. The fear passed, reason returned, but the damaged had been done it was the final straw that broke Ben Solo and turned him into Kylo Ren. Leia and Han sending Ben off to what amounts to boarding school with his uncle didn’t turn out well. The reasons for the past actions are not as important as how the characters react and develop in the current story. Luke is now a supporting role, not a starring role. How this relates to Rey and Kylo is the story at hand and we are given enough to justify the current state of affairs. Luke was always a bit petulant and his reaction to the events at his new Jedi temple are just an older version of the whiny farm boy who complained about not getting to go to Toche Station. Yes he has grown, but the trait remains, as it does with most people.
Rey has her own journey and that is what the story was focused on. She is trying to find her role and Luke did not help her at all, except for giving her access to the Jedi texts (which she stole… or scavanged?). Luke is now in the Ben Kenobi role.
I find it funny that we got so much more from Luke on how Kylo Ren fell than we got from Ben Kenobi back in 77. Have we asked the question of why Ben was in the Tatooine desert? He was a powerful Jedi Knight. What is he doing there? He tells us a great deal, but didn’t show us anything. And it turns out, as the story developed, that what he told Luke was a pack of lies. A carefully orchestrated story to get Luke involved and start his training. Why didn’t Ben fight to the death to try to defeat Vader and Palpatine. Luke is facing a much larger foe. Rather than 2 sith it is a whole band of dark knights and Snoke. The combination of scope of his failure plus the might of those massed against him and it makes sense. We don’t need more than what we were told.
Maybe it would work better if Rey wasn’t a badly written character.
You do make a good point.
I disagree.
What happened to Obi-Wan and Yoda:
- Jedi purge aided by Obi-Wan’s former apprentice now Darth Vader
- Galactic Empire takes over the galaxy
- Yoda and Obi-Wan face off against Sidious and Vader despite terrible odds
- Yoda fights Sidious to a stalemate and is forced to flee, as troops arrive
- Obi-Wan defeats Vader, leaving him for dead
- Obi-Wan and Yoda are now hunted by the Empire, branded traitors with the approval of the Senate, and are forced into hiding
- Obi-Wan and Yoda hide Luke and Leia
- It takes twenty years for the Rebel Alliance to become a significant threat to the Empire’s powerbase
- Leia asks Obi-Wan for help in their most desparate hour, Obi-Wan answers their call
What happened to Luke:
- Luke’s Jedi Academy is destroyed by his former apprentice partly caused by Luke’s unfortunate mistake
- New Republic controls most of the galaxy
- FO is growing in power, but at this point still a fringe government
- Despite the fact that there’s still plenty of opportunity to stop the FO with the help of the Resistance and the Republic fleet, Luke doesn’t even try, and goes into exile, leaving everything behind
- In Luke’s absence the FO grows in power to the point, that it is able to destroy the Republic capital and take over the galaxy
- Luke refuses to help even after his sister Leia through Rey informs him of their situation, and his best friend has been murdered
Except let’s look at what is going on in each instance. In the PT (or even the OT backstory prior to the PT), the Empire has taken over, the Jedi have been hunted down. Ben and Yoda are in hiding. Waiting for something. They have hope that something will change.
Luke has just had his entire new order of Jedi wiped out (either killed or turned to the dark side). We don’t really know how many, but it wasn’t a lot. The facility is wiped out and the leader is none other than his own nephew. He fears that if he trains anyone else, the same thing will happen again. And Snoke and the Knights of Ren make a force that he does not have the power to combat. He would not kill his father in ROTJ so I’m sure he would not kill his nephew.
So the situations are vastly different in terms of what is at stake personally. Also remember, that Ben and Yoda were fully trained Jedi masters. They had learned to put their emotions behind them. When did Luke learn that lesson. We see in ROTJ that he is still prone to letting his emotions take control. He uses that to defeat Vader. As Johnson writes the lines for Luke to speak, he is also addressing fans who have idolized Luke and made him into something that the movies don’t show. The movies never show him attaining true Jedi mastery of his emotions and feelings. And the events that led to his self imposed exile in the ST are ones that, given the character traits shown and mentioned in the OT, would lead him to do exactly what he did. Luke was never perfect, only very determined. He used the Jedi training he had been taught and it failed his padawans. The same way it failed Kenobi in training Anakin. Luke sees that failing but does not know how to correct it. I saw it quite clearly in the PT that Lucas was showing that it wasn’t Kenobi or Yoda who failed, but the Jedi teachings. We are back to that. The Old Republic Jedi order had a major flaw - they didn’t teach their padawan how to avoid the temptation of the dark side. They just said don’t start down that path. They had gotten to a point where they denied attachments because it might lead that way instead of teaching how to avoid and resist the temptation. It is like teaching abstinence instead contraception to avoid teen pregnancies. It doesn’t work. Both Ben Solo and Anakin needed teachings that the Jedi didn’t have and that Luke doesn’t have.
Luke had three choices after Kylo turned. He could go after Kylo Ren and defeat him and the other dark ones. He could build a new order of Jedi to combat them - but the conflict would come eventually and there was no certainty that the new students wouldn’t be cut down or turned like the previous batch. Or he could decide not to kill and go into hiding. Staying and helping Leia really wasn’t an option because Snoke was already there and he would be expected to train new Jedi. And that is what he now fears. Luke rightly sees the Jedi order as flawed. He has given up instead of finding a way to fix it. And if you go back and watch the original, what he did is exactly in keeping with his character traits as established in the OT.
Sorry this really makes no sense to me. Luke refuses to train more Jedi, because he might fail. In stead he allows Snoke to take Ben Solo and to create any number of dark Force users. So, rather than take a risk, which may lead to a victory for the good guys, he opts for certain doom by doing nothing.
If Luke does nothing, the galaxy will be plunged into a second darkness, as there’s nobody to stand in Snoke’s way. If Luke tries to stop Snoke and Kylo, he might prevail, and then retire the Jedi Order, or he might be killed resulting in the end of the Jedi. Doing nothing obvioysly is the worst choice. Luke would be stupid for not being able to deduce this.
This is absolutely not in keeping with Luke’s character, who went on a suicide mission to destroy the Death Star even without significant knowledge of the Force.
Really? Remember in TESB, “I can’t, its too big” of trying to lift his X-wing out of the swamp? And Luke didn’t lead a suicide mission on the death Star. He was one of 30 pilots. And Luke’s failure was huge. He failed Han and Leia, not just Ben and the other students. And with retreat after failure already in him, such a huge setback could easily bring that out again. It is very in keeping with is personality as the OT presented it, though not as the Expended Universe built him up or as many fans have come to see him. This movie really restored humanity to Luke.
Only if you deny Luke’s character development from the moment he failed to lift the X-wing. Discovering Darth Vader is his father, shattered everything Luke believed in. Yet, he overcame it, and ultimately became a Jedi, and redeemed his father.
Additionally the fact that he even for a moment thought about killing his nephew to the point that he activated his lightsaber, when his nephew had done nothing, but be tempted by the dark side, is just not credible. Luke refused to even fight is father, a man who was everything Luke feared his nephew might become and worse. The Luke of ROTJ would have attempted to redeem his nephew, not murder him in his sleep.
Who ignited and swung their saber first? Luke.
After Palpatine had goaded him, and his friends and allies were in real mortal danger. As I stated before ROTJ sets up Luke losing his composure over multiple scenes. TLJ gives us only a single short scene with a Force vision of something that might happen. It’s not the same thing. If TLJ had set up Kylo as being a real danger to Luke’s students, by hurting one of them, it might have worked for me. As it is now Luke’s terrified of a dream, when he kept his cool for a long time in the face of real danger before.
“Terrified of a dream” and not facing any real danger from it is just your interpretation and not supported by anything in the movie.
There’s nothing in the film, that suggest Ben Solo presented an immediate threat. Luke suggests Snoke had won Kylo’s heart, but he mentions only dark thoughts, and not a single incident of Ben using the dark side against the other students or himself. If anything the film suggests it was Luke himself who tipped the scale, and caused Ben to go beserk.
““I saw darkness. I’d sensed it building in him. I’d seen it in moments during his training. But then i looked inside. And it was beyond what i ever imagined ( then you hear lightsabers and screaming). Snoke had already turned his heart. He would bring destruction and pain and death and the end of everything that i loved because of what he would become. And in the briefest moment of pure instinct i thought i could stop it. It passed like a fleeting shadow. And i was left with shame. And with consequence. And the last thing i saw were the eyes of a frightened boy who’s master had failed him.””
You hear the use of lightsabers and lots of screaming as Luke is seeing the vision of the destruction Kylo would cause and Luke’s pained and terrified expression says it all. Everything you needed to know was in that scene, both visually and descriptively.
So Luke acted like TESB Luke would’ve acted, denying all the growth the character should’ve had and had on screen and off screen? I don’t really buy it. I almost buy it solely because of Mark Hamill, but the more I think of it, the less I like it.
Let’s break down Luke vs. Vader in RotJ:
What did Luke learn?
What did we learn in TLJ?
wait what?? what about all of Luke’s failures and how he grew in the OT and all he learned about overcoming darkness? Why isn’t he passing that forward?
He didn’t act like his RotJ self would, but most importantly, like any regular human being that progresses naturally under given circumstances would.
Luke in RotJ only attacked to protect something or someone, but he did it the wrong way, using the dark side.
And how did the Luke that knew that defying all expectations and odds can pay off simply gave up on the galaxy and the ways of the force?
I don’t buy it 😕
Another criticism is the tonal problems. The prequels had the same problems with tone. Really not even considering the gravity of certain moments and jumping straight to buffoonery or bathroom jokes. There is a lot of that in TLJ and also talk about how bad the Jedi are.
Honestly this movie felt like an homage to the prequels and was even worse than them. TFA was at least much better.
The only reason jokes were a tonal problem in the PT was because they were aimed squarely at children, although they were not necessarily things children actually found funny. TLJ just makes normal jokes, and they’re funny jokes. PT jokes aren’t jokes, they’re Lucas’s approximation of jokes. So they’re not funny and don’t fit in at all.
I disagree with this. Comedy and tone are different. Maybe they are sometimes related I guess. But comedy is more subjective. If you think something is funny who can argue you with you? For me, I didn’t find almost anything in this movie funny and it didn’t feel like Star Wars humor either. I’ve seen a lot of people agree.
But tone is more objective. It’s not really about whether something is aimed at children. RLM had some great examples in their prequel criticism videos. I wonder if they will do the same on this movie. It really did feel like watching Attack of the Clones to me.
You misunderstand me a bit.
I think it is possible to achieve a proper tonal balance between drama and comedy. I believe TLJ achieves that balance (not just because the simple fact that the jokes are funny, but because they are well integrated and feel true to the characters and situations, which makes them funny). I do not think the PT does, because I believe the humor is forced in, almost an afterthought, designed to get kids to laugh. That is why the tonal mishaps take place.
Humor is extremely subjective I think. More so than most things. I watched it December 14th first showing, and most people left talking about how most of the jokes were awful. The only ones I thought were funny were Luke tickling Rey and Luke saying she’s from nowhere. The rest was pretty bad.
ps: I thought the humor in Rogue One worked 1,000,000 times better. I didn’t like the humor in TFA. Nor in the prequels.
The scene at the end of TFA is from Rey’s perspective. So it’s epic and momentous - here’s me offering this legendary lightsaber to this legendary person to ask him to save the galaxy. Whatever happens after that doesn’t change the emotion of that moment.
In TLJ, we get a twist on it by seeing how Luke really feels about the “legendary” label. And Luke talks about his feelings about being a legend later in the film - the label is a burden, it caused him great pressure and great shame - it is the reason he has brought himself into exile. In that moment, he’s thinking that that lightsaber brought him terrible emotional and physical pain (remember the last time he saw it?). He doesn’t respect the saber in the way Rey does, he rejects it. Tossing the saber instantly establishes Luke’s feelings about the Jedi and his legendary status (i.e. no thanks).
But that’s okay. That’s just where Luke is at the start of the film. It’s part of his journey here, to coming back around to understanding that he needs to pick up the saber and act once again, to be the legend the galaxy needs. This, by the way, is why he uses that blue saber at the end.
You do realize that if he simply tossed it to the side gently it would be much easier for people to accept it right? The problem is how he comically tossed the lightsaber over his shoulder. The execution was terrible for being the payoff of such a powerful scene in TFA. I, for example, waited 2 years to specifically watch that scene and BAM SNL material right there.
I don’t know what to say except I disagree. I think tossing it gently wouldn’t have the same impact. You need to have the whole throw it over the shoulder thing to show how big the gap is between what Rey wants and what Luke is willing to do at this point. If Luke just politely pushed her aside and said “no thanks,” then the conflict there wouldn’t be nearly as strong.
As for “SNL material”? I don’t even know what to say. It’s a funny scene, it made me laugh. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. Just because there’s humor doesn’t make it “SNL,” especially if that humor is used to define who that character is in this moment.
I suppose we’ll have to agree to disagree.
You do make a good point.
I disagree.
What happened to Obi-Wan and Yoda:
- Jedi purge aided by Obi-Wan’s former apprentice now Darth Vader
- Galactic Empire takes over the galaxy
- Yoda and Obi-Wan face off against Sidious and Vader despite terrible odds
- Yoda fights Sidious to a stalemate and is forced to flee, as troops arrive
- Obi-Wan defeats Vader, leaving him for dead
- Obi-Wan and Yoda are now hunted by the Empire, branded traitors with the approval of the Senate, and are forced into hiding
- Obi-Wan and Yoda hide Luke and Leia
- It takes twenty years for the Rebel Alliance to become a significant threat to the Empire’s powerbase
- Leia asks Obi-Wan for help in their most desparate hour, Obi-Wan answers their call
What happened to Luke:
- Luke’s Jedi Academy is destroyed by his former apprentice partly caused by Luke’s unfortunate mistake
- New Republic controls most of the galaxy
- FO is growing in power, but at this point still a fringe government
- Despite the fact that there’s still plenty of opportunity to stop the FO with the help of the Resistance and the Republic fleet, Luke doesn’t even try, and goes into exile, leaving everything behind
- In Luke’s absence the FO grows in power to the point, that it is able to destroy the Republic capital and take over the galaxy
- Luke refuses to help even after his sister Leia through Rey informs him of their situation, and his best friend has been murdered
This right here. I don’t see how people even compare the 2 situations. Obi-Wan and Yoda literally did everything they could. Luke did nothing.
The scene at the end of TFA is from Rey’s perspective. So it’s epic and momentous - here’s me offering this legendary lightsaber to this legendary person to ask him to save the galaxy. Whatever happens after that doesn’t change the emotion of that moment.
In TLJ, we get a twist on it by seeing how Luke really feels about the “legendary” label. And Luke talks about his feelings about being a legend later in the film - the label is a burden, it caused him great pressure and great shame - it is the reason he has brought himself into exile. In that moment, he’s thinking that that lightsaber brought him terrible emotional and physical pain (remember the last time he saw it?). He doesn’t respect the saber in the way Rey does, he rejects it. Tossing the saber instantly establishes Luke’s feelings about the Jedi and his legendary status (i.e. no thanks).
But that’s okay. That’s just where Luke is at the start of the film. It’s part of his journey here, to coming back around to understanding that he needs to pick up the saber and act once again, to be the legend the galaxy needs. This, by the way, is why he uses that blue saber at the end.
You do realize that if he simply tossed it to the side gently it would be much easier for people to accept it right? The problem is how he comically tossed the lightsaber over his shoulder. The execution was terrible for being the payoff of such a powerful scene in TFA. I, for example, waited 2 years to specifically watch that scene and BAM SNL material right there.
Also the face Luke makes at the end of TFA makes no sense anymore.
“Let’s go chrome dome!”
“You were always scum.”
“Rebel scum”.
Am I being a problem in this thread? Or in the website in general? If so, I’ll just go to spectator mode until my winter break is over, and maybe even further.
I really need to see the film again. All this back and forth about it, and I’ve slept several times since seeing it just the once. I need to refresh my own opinion instead of continually filling my head with what everyone else thinks.
I’ve watched it twice, and honestly I think it was enough. I’m not personally willing to give the people that made a movie I didn’t love more money than that of 2 tickets.
I’m naturally going to buy the Blu-ray though, but only so that I can watch fanedits.
Alleged first official image, from an upcoming magazine story:
Not sure how I feel about it. Han doesn’t look as bad as I thought he would though. We’ll see.
Please explain the ‘dark place’ scene to me. I’ve only seen the film once and forgot about it until now.
What was the point of it? When Luke went in there in ESB, he learned that the ‘thing’ he took with him in the Cave was fear and anger. So, what he got was Darth Vader and that fear and anger would turn him into what he tried to destroy. What lesson was Rey learning from seeing herself in infinity?
The point was to rehash interesting scenes of the OT but this time make them meaningless.
Edit: just kidding, I actually think Rey wanted to see her parents and saw herself because the cave was trying to tell her that she knew who her parents are, and she knew it “doesn’t matter”. That’s what I think at least. I quite like the scene.
