Collipso

TV’s Frink said:

Collipso said:

Zak fett said:

One part of the discussion we need. The boy at the end
Info
• Name is temri blagg
• force sensitive
• fathier carer
• Abandoned by parents (like rey)
• Slave (like anakin)
What are your thoughts on the matter and what role do you think he’ll get in IX

I think he’s meaningless and basically there to show that the Rebellion will live on. I really don’t think he’s important - it’s established that millions or billions of kids are force sensitive: he’s not special.

Nothing has been established yet.

In the prequels it was established that there were at least thousands of force sensitive kids in the galaxy, and that the jedi were extremely purists as to who they want to train. That’s what I was referring to.

If you only acknowledge the OT and the ST though, it has never been established, you’re right.

Zak fett said:

One part of the discussion we need. The boy at the end
Info
• Name is temri blagg
• force sensitive
• fathier carer
• Abandoned by parents (like rey)
• Slave (like anakin)
What are your thoughts on the matter and what role do you think he’ll get in IX

I think he’s meaningless and basically there to show that the Rebellion will live on. I really don’t think he’s important - it’s established that millions or billions of kids are force sensitive: he’s not special.

TV’s Frink said:

DrDre said:

TV’s Frink said:

Not everyone needs a happy ending. You do. Don’t watch new Star Wars. Problem solved.

Yeah, but isn’t this why forums like this exist? To discuss why we jump on or off the band wagon, or why we like or dislike certain elements, or what makes a Star Wars film work for you, or not? It’s not, because we all agree. If we all agreed, we would have a first post on some random subject, followed by a few dozen: I agree! I agree! This! You’re a genius, give me more!

There’s no “why” contained in

Collipso said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

Collipso said:

Jeebus said:

Collipso said:

Just like VIII would explain Rey’s magical force powers?

All force powers are magical.

I meant how she magically acquired them.

The reason is there if you bother to look and think. Imagining that Luke’s training was typical or normal is the first problem. And then realizing that we’ve never seen anyone else’s training in the films. So Rey is only the second Jedi we have followed through the process. I’m not sure how many times Yoda has to point out the flaws in Luke’s thinking for people to realize that Yoda was desperate or Luke would never have been trained at all.

I just don’t buy your reasoning. Rey copying Kylo doesn’t work for me, because watching someone walking a tightrope, doesn’t mean I can also instantly do it. Like I said learning to access and use the Force was intimately connected to personal growth in both the OT and the PT. That element has now been completely removed. The Force awakens in you, because it somehow needs to be in balance, which would then also mean, since it awoke in Rey to counter Kylo, the Force has somehow also predetermined she’s to be or is a force for good. Though I’m not a big fan of the PT’s Chosen One angle, that at least questioned the whole idea of believing in a prophecy predicting balance, and whether the end justifies the means. Anakin did bring balance to the Force, but at a terrible price. Was Anakin created by the Sith? It was hinted at, and Lucas ultimately decided to leave it as a question mark. So, was he ultimately a force for good, or evil? With Rey it thusfar seems pretty well answered, as in my view she’s never been seriously tempted.

I think you’re making a false comparison. Walking a tightrope is a very specified skill that takes a lot of balance. It’s something very artificial because you don’t find tightropes in nature. However if you compare to other things like painting, drawing, singing, math, pod racing, flying, building things, and a host of other items, there’s a lot more realism in what they’ve done with Rey than you seem to give them credit for. People try something and discover that the course they’ve taken in life has prepared them for it and they’re good at it from the moment they start. I’m not saying that Rey is just picking up these skills on the Fly, I’m saying that her life on Jakku prepared her and that she started out in tune with nature and the force even though she didn’t know how to use it and when she sees kylo use it she can see what he’s doing and is copying him, and if it first she doesn’t get it right she does it again until she does get it right. It’s almost as if she can see what he’s doing on a level that lets her copy it precisely. Sort of like if you’re a computer programmer and you’re watching over someone shoulders as they write code that you’ve never tried to do before and you see exactly what they’re doing and so you go to your computer and you try to do the same thing and it doesn’t work the first time but then you to do it again and get it right. It is an unusual though not unheard of ability and we are seeing it in action with the force. Where Luke’s background on Tatooine did not prepare him. Yoda had to retrain him. He had doubts he had dreams and they all got in the way of him accessing the force. When he needed it and didn’t doubt it it was there. But when he thought the X-Wing was too big he couldn’t lift it. Rey sees how Kylo does things so she knows it can be done, sees how to do it, then does it herself. It is not magic. The force is often equated with magic, but the way Rey is picking up these skills is totally believable.

The old Jedi training (which we have never seen in it’s entirety) begins early in childhood. Even 9 year-old Anakin is too old. It progresses, teaching them how to access the force and what they can do with it in a slow methodical process to avoid the temptation of the dark side and build a sure and confident Jedi. The closest we have gotten to that is in Rebels. Ezra has been picking up things faster and easier than Luke. Rey is basically a force genius. Nothing magical about it at all. Let’s take a real world example. T.E. Lawrence was a cartographer. He became a great leader. What training did he have in being a general? He was just a lieutenant. He certainly had no experience. Yet the failures he encountered were not at the beginning. Then let’s take Einstein an his theory of relativity. He came up with the idea in a bus and turned his daydream into provable mathmatic equations. When they make movies about them do they bother explaining how they learn? Nope. They focus on their personal development. Sometime learning a skilled is the story, sometimes that comes too easy and the interesting story lies in other parts of their life. We spent one movie watching Luke struggle to overcome his doubts. Doing it again would be repetative. We skipped that part of Anakin’s life. With Rey, the interesting part is not her learning the force, but her role in the Skywalker saga as the foil to Kylo and part of the Resistance/Rebellion.

You seem to forget, that even Einstein went to school. Genius doesn’t just magically happen. It’s not like some random bus driver suddenly invents the theory of relativity. Genius is an extreme of talent, but it is not boundless, and it doesn’t happen instanteously, as it does with Rey. There’s no level of understanding with Rey, as there is with genius, no learning curve. That’s not how genius works, or the Force.

TLJ is different, not because it tells a very different story set in the same universe. It tells a very similar story set in a different universe. The Star Wars universe and it’s rules were broken to force different outcomes in almost identical situations. TLJ is a mix of TESB and ROTJ set in an alternate universe with similar aesthetics. The most obvious example is the character of Luke , who was deconstructed and then reassembled to fit into this alternate universe. You accept the alternate universe, then you accept this Luke Skywalker, but for people like me he’s a different character.

I agree. This universe is also pointless to the previous one, since that one told a complete story.

Plus the new one makes the previous one completely pointless as well.

I give you credit, you put thought into your posts. Collipso does as well, but that one is just whining for whining’s sake. Both statements are also factually incorrect.

The thing is that I don’t feel like the ST is part of the Star Wars saga. The OT tied up all of its loose ends, and the PT is just backstory badly executed.

The ST is just meh. I’m really glad you enjoy it though. It’s nice to see other people happy.

I do really like theatrical RotS. Only prequel movie I don’t watch fan edited. I watch an extended edition.

TV’s Frink said:

I’ll ignore your ROTS ranking to just say that this absolutely does not compute.

Collipso said:

5. AotC

I knew it!! Hahaha

Edit: I haven’t watched the original version in a long time though, Hal’s version all the way.

TV’s Frink said:

Collipso said:

This universe is also pointless to the previous one, since that one told a complete story.

Oh ok, then don’t ever watch ESB again, since ANH told a complete story.

ANH did leave loose ends, such as Vader still alive and Luke still wanting to become a Jedi. However, it works perfectly as a standalone as well. Not the same thing.

RotJ tied up all loose ends and was a happy ending.

1. TESB
2. SW
3. RotJ
4. RotS
5. AotC
6. R1
7. TLJ
8. TFA
9. TPM
10. TCW

I’d love to. But I’m not entirely sure when I’ll have time to do so.

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

Collipso said:

Jeebus said:

Collipso said:

Just like VIII would explain Rey’s magical force powers?

All force powers are magical.

I meant how she magically acquired them.

The reason is there if you bother to look and think. Imagining that Luke’s training was typical or normal is the first problem. And then realizing that we’ve never seen anyone else’s training in the films. So Rey is only the second Jedi we have followed through the process. I’m not sure how many times Yoda has to point out the flaws in Luke’s thinking for people to realize that Yoda was desperate or Luke would never have been trained at all.

I just don’t buy your reasoning. Rey copying Kylo doesn’t work for me, because watching someone walking a tightrope, doesn’t mean I can also instantly do it. Like I said learning to access and use the Force was intimately connected to personal growth in both the OT and the PT. That element has now been completely removed. The Force awakens in you, because it somehow needs to be in balance, which would then also mean, since it awoke in Rey to counter Kylo, the Force has somehow also predetermined she’s to be or is a force for good. Though I’m not a big fan of the PT’s Chosen One angle, that at least questioned the whole idea of believing in a prophecy predicting balance, and whether the end justifies the means. Anakin did bring balance to the Force, but at a terrible price. Was Anakin created by the Sith? It was hinted at, and Lucas ultimately decided to leave it as a question mark. So, was he ultimately a force for good, or evil? With Rey it thusfar seems pretty well answered, as in my view she’s never been seriously tempted.

I think you’re making a false comparison. Walking a tightrope is a very specified skill that takes a lot of balance. It’s something very artificial because you don’t find tightropes in nature. However if you compare to other things like painting, drawing, singing, math, pod racing, flying, building things, and a host of other items, there’s a lot more realism in what they’ve done with Rey than you seem to give them credit for. People try something and discover that the course they’ve taken in life has prepared them for it and they’re good at it from the moment they start. I’m not saying that Rey is just picking up these skills on the Fly, I’m saying that her life on Jakku prepared her and that she started out in tune with nature and the force even though she didn’t know how to use it and when she sees kylo use it she can see what he’s doing and is copying him, and if it first she doesn’t get it right she does it again until she does get it right. It’s almost as if she can see what he’s doing on a level that lets her copy it precisely. Sort of like if you’re a computer programmer and you’re watching over someone shoulders as they write code that you’ve never tried to do before and you see exactly what they’re doing and so you go to your computer and you try to do the same thing and it doesn’t work the first time but then you to do it again and get it right. It is an unusual though not unheard of ability and we are seeing it in action with the force. Where Luke’s background on Tatooine did not prepare him. Yoda had to retrain him. He had doubts he had dreams and they all got in the way of him accessing the force. When he needed it and didn’t doubt it it was there. But when he thought the X-Wing was too big he couldn’t lift it. Rey sees how Kylo does things so she knows it can be done, sees how to do it, then does it herself. It is not magic. The force is often equated with magic, but the way Rey is picking up these skills is totally believable.

The old Jedi training (which we have never seen in it’s entirety) begins early in childhood. Even 9 year-old Anakin is too old. It progresses, teaching them how to access the force and what they can do with it in a slow methodical process to avoid the temptation of the dark side and build a sure and confident Jedi. The closest we have gotten to that is in Rebels. Ezra has been picking up things faster and easier than Luke. Rey is basically a force genius. Nothing magical about it at all. Let’s take a real world example. T.E. Lawrence was a cartographer. He became a great leader. What training did he have in being a general? He was just a lieutenant. He certainly had no experience. Yet the failures he encountered were not at the beginning. Then let’s take Einstein an his theory of relativity. He came up with the idea in a bus and turned his daydream into provable mathmatic equations. When they make movies about them do they bother explaining how they learn? Nope. They focus on their personal development. Sometime learning a skilled is the story, sometimes that comes too easy and the interesting story lies in other parts of their life. We spent one movie watching Luke struggle to overcome his doubts. Doing it again would be repetative. We skipped that part of Anakin’s life. With Rey, the interesting part is not her learning the force, but her role in the Skywalker saga as the foil to Kylo and part of the Resistance/Rebellion.

You seem to forget, that even Einstein went to school. Genius doesn’t just magically happen. It’s not like some random bus driver suddenly invents the theory of relativity. Genius is an extreme of talent, but it is not boundless, and it doesn’t happen instanteously, as it does with Rey. There’s no level of understanding with Rey, as there is with genius, no learning curve. That’s not how genius works, or the Force.

TLJ is different, not because it tells a very different story set in the same universe. It tells a very similar story set in a different universe. The Star Wars universe and it’s rules were broken to force different outcomes in almost identical situations. TLJ is a mix of TESB and ROTJ set in an alternate universe with similar aesthetics. The most obvious example is the character of Luke , who was deconstructed and then reassembled to fit into this alternate universe. You accept the alternate universe, then you accept this Luke Skywalker, but for people like me he’s a different character.

I agree. This universe is also pointless to the previous one, since that one told a complete story.

Plus the new one makes the previous one completely pointless as well.

TV’s Frink said:

Porkins4real said:

yotsuya said:

Collipso said:

Jeebus said:

Collipso said:

Just like VIII would explain Rey’s magical force powers?

All force powers are magical.

I meant how she magically acquired them.

The reason is there if you bother to look and think. Imagining that Luke’s training was typical or normal is the first problem. And then realizing that we’ve never seen anyone else’s training in the films. So Rey is only the second Jedi we have followed through the process. I’m not sure how many times Yoda has to point out the flaws in Luke’s thinking for people to realize that Yoda was desperate or Luke would never have been trained at all.

This just seems REALLY wrong. The PT had lots of information on training Jedi. If you add in the Clone Wars (which you may choose to ignore) you get even more.

You may also choose to ignore the prequels.

TLJ doesn’t, which makes his complaint valid and comparisons with the prequels totally acceptable.

TV’s Frink said:

Collipso said:

Just like VIII would explain Rey’s magical force powers?

I didn’t realize the middle movie of a trilogy was required to provide all the answers.

I never said VIII should explain everything. But a lot of people said after TFA “wait for the sequel”.

Happy new year everyone!!!

SparkySywer said:

One thing that bothered me about the prequels, and is in the Last Jedi, is that they all use the same recording of the opening theme. TLJ uses the same recording as TFA. I’d change that.

On that same note, other than the Yoda scene, not a fan of them reusing old music. I’d also edit that out, where possible.

Which opening theme version would you suggest?

Jeebus said:

Collipso said:

Just like VIII would explain Rey’s magical force powers?

All force powers are magical.

I meant how she magically acquired them.

DominicCobb said:

Collipso said:

Just like VIII would explain Rey’s magical force powers?

Part of what yotsuya is saying is that when all is said and done, the things that the ST is actually about will be clear, rather than what fans think the ST should be about or want it to be about.

I can see that.

If not for Rey I think I’d love the ST. Makes me sad that I don’t like her as much.

Just like VIII would explain Rey’s magical force powers?

Hal 9000 said:

Collipso said:

What are you going to do about the musical number? I personally don’t like any of the versions, but the harmonica player from the Special Edition is not that bad at all.

Lapti Nek all the way.

Do you plan on trimming down some of the “look at how cute this Ewok is” moments?

LordPlagueis said:

My suggestions.

1. Restore the deleted scene of Darth Vader in his meditation chamber calling out to Luke as he constructs his new green lightsaber. The scene seamlessly connects the opening Death Star sequence with the Tatooine rescue sequence, which seem disconnected in the theatrical version.

2. Improve the pacing in the Tatooine rescue sequence. Cut the droid torture scene. Cut the song and dance routine. Cut the dancer falling through the trap door. Cut Leia haggling with Jabba over the bounty for Chewbacca. Cut the thermal detonator. Cut Leia bumping into wind chimes. Cut C-3PO warning Luke that he is standing upon a trap door. Cut the herd of Banthas. Cut the barge sailing over the sand. In general, trim the first act as much as possible.

3. Boba Fett should use a flamethrower before dying valiantly.

4. The Dagobah scene should be transposed to before the Emperor’s arrival on the Death Star.
   The order of events should be a) Vader’s arrival, b) Tatooine rescue mission, c) Luke’s visit to Dagobah,
   d) the Emperor’s arrival, and e) the rebel briefing. The Emperor’s prediction that Luke will seek out Vader is more meaningful after Yoda confirms they are father and son.

5. Restore the deleted footage of Yoda confessing, “Obi-Wan would have told you long ago, had I let him.”

6. Replace the wallpaper background for the docking bay.

7. Cut the Emperor’s surprise at Vader’s revelation that Luke is among the rebels on Endor.

8. Since you will not edit the prequels, you should cut Leia’s description of her mother to eliminate a contradiction with Revenge of the Sith.

LUKE: Leia, do you remember your mother? Your real mother?

LEIA: She died when I was very young. (looks up) Why are you asking me this?

He looks away, in anguish.

LUKE: I have no memory of my mother. I never knew her.

9. Cut Leia’s line, “Somehow, I’ve always known.”

10. Keep all elements of the Special Edition ending other than Hayden Christensen playing Anakin’s ghost.

He’s not going to use deleted footage from the movie in this edit.

What are you going to do about the musical number? I personally don’t like any of the versions, but the harmonica player from the Special Edition is not that bad at all.

adywan said:

Collipso said:

I think that lots of criticism towards both movies upon release are the same, from what the link SilverWook provided tells and from what I can see of TLJ’s reaction.

However, some criticism towards TLJ isn’t about the moviemaking aspect. It’s about the literal core of the characters, with lots of people thinking Luke was ruined, or that Rey doesn’t obey the rules of the universe, etc etc.

And those complaints aren’t going away. They’re problems the audience has with the core of the movie, and I see it as different from the criticisms TESB received upon release.

There were many criticisms about the characters when ESB came out. Claiming they ruined Leia because they turned her into a cow that tossed aside Luke and there is no way she would ever have been interested in Han. That they ruined Luke. They turned him from this hero that was powerful enough to destroy the Death Star and now he is this winging kid who is now a failure because he can’t do some simple tricks that the muppet asks him to do and then who gets his ass kicked and cries like a baby. And having 3P0 & R2 split up for most of the film also received a lot of flack .

I don’t see how those complaints would be in the same level as TLJ’s complaints. It would be if we were all angry that Rey is struggling to succeed/learn, how Poe isn’t choosing the right person to date, or something like that.

However, I can see that some of the TLJ Rey/TESB Luke criticisms/nitpicks would be the same, or at least of the same kind. They are complaints about their journey so far. From what you say, people thought that Luke’s Journey was too hard and nowadays some of us think Rey’s is too easy. I personally think that a difficult journey is more compelling, and makes you care more about the character, seeing him fail, etc.

I guess that if Rey was struggling super hard with something else to compensate for her force powers she’d be a more interesting character, but I don’t see this other struggle some people have mentioned.

Regarding TLJ Luke and TLJ itself, I think that several people are complaining about how they undermined some of the deepest themes from the other six movies, like DrDre pointed out, and traits and characterization aspects for Luke in order to advance the new guys’ story. Unfortunately the main hero falls flat to a lot of people. Oh well.

So while I can see that some of the criticisms for both movies are similar, all in all I think the TLJ ones go much deeper. You must take into account that the franchise has existed for over 40 years now, so it has a lot more going for it than at the time of TESB. It has more established aspects and rules that ought to be respected and weren’t.

Matt.F said:

Collipso said:

I think that lots of criticism towards both movies upon release are the same, from what the link SilverWook provided tells and from what I can see of TLJ’s reaction.

However, some criticism towards TLJ isn’t about the moviemaking aspect. It’s about the literal core of the characters, with lots of people thinking Luke was ruined, or that Rey doesn’t obey the rules of the universe, etc etc.

And those complaints aren’t going away. They’re problems the audience has with the core of the movie, and I see it as different from the criticisms TESB received upon release.

No, there is no difference between the nitpicks of Empire and The Last Jedi. Only different in your mind. You must unlearn what you have learned.

It’s unwise to deal in absolutes. It’s also somewhat rude.

I think that lots of criticism towards both movies upon release are the same, from what the link SilverWook provided tells and from what I can see of TLJ’s reaction.

However, some criticism towards TLJ isn’t about the moviemaking aspect. It’s about the literal core of the characters, with lots of people thinking Luke was ruined, or that Rey doesn’t obey the rules of the universe, etc etc.

And those complaints aren’t going away. They’re problems the audience has with the core of the movie, and I see it as different from the criticisms TESB received upon release.

The movie itself was, until now apparently, undeniable proof that she beat him. Who knows…

SilverWook said:

Mielr said:

Warbler said:

which obviously for years I didn’t think were choking noises.

Someone check the closed-captioning to see if it says: “(CHOKING NOISES)” 😉

Hot damn! I was thinking that just as I saw your post! Get out of my mind! :p

Anyway, here’s the scene in question.
https://youtu.be/LLbO16m3nNI?t=1m9s

The top comment is “Luke force choking…” lol.

Edit: simply by the look on his face I think one can assume he’s force choking the guards.

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

Mocata said:

DrDre said:
Either way none of the films suggested balance of the Force implies dark and light balancing each other, and dark rising to balance light or vicd versa. In any case this interpretation has been debunked by Lucas himself.

To be fair this is inconsistent in the prequels like everything else. Lucas is hardly creating a fully developed canon ahead of time for later film makers to reference. In TPM they say the Sith were extinct, and the boy could just be “the one”. Then in (I think ROTS) this changes suddenly when Obi-wan says Anakin was destined to create balance by “destroying the Sith”. Who were extinct.

I agree, and I never really liked the Chosen One/balance angle, since it was little more than a plot device, and pretty underdeveloped.

I was actually fine with Rey’s depiction in TFA, and accepted that she was able to figure some things out for herself. She initially failed in using the Jedi mind trick, and Kylo Ren was seriously injured, and I expected her to be trained by Luke in TLJ, but in the end all she got from Luke were a couple of incomplete lessons, and some books, and despite this her Force powers continued to grow to the extend, that she beat Luke in a duel, saved Kylo in their battle with Snoke’s guards, and moved a ton of rocks with ease. That’s where I checked out.

1. She did not beat Luke in that duel

So, Luke wasn’t put on his back with Rey grabbing and pointing a lightsaber at him? I think she had the high ground, a sure win in the Star Wars universe since 2005. :p

They were in a stick duel, which Luke won because he knocked hers out of her hand. Taking out the lightsaber was cheating, of course he fell back because all he had was a stick, I don’t see how that could be construed as her winning.

2. She didn’t “save” Ren, she just helped him

She helped him, such that the guard wouldn’t kill Ren, ergo it makes sense to conclude she saved him.

She just gave him the saber, he saved himself. This just shows them working as a team - using this to suggest she is more powerful than him is pretty silly.

3. We didn’t actually see her lift the rocks, so we don’t know how “easy” it was

They didn’t show any strain on her face, like for example with Yoda in AOTC, or Luke in TESB. Therefore it makes sense to assume it was easier for her than either of those characters. Also, Luke wasn’t able to perform such an act after being trained by Yoda, straining to keep a few rocks afloat during the training sequence.

Yoda makes it clear that Luke could lift the x-wing if he had the right mindset. This isn’t like training to lift weights or being at a high level in a video game to do a certain power. It’s a matter of tapping properly into your potential.

I have problems with this scene myself but I don’t see anything wrong with the simple fact of her having the ability to lift rocks.

I don’t think that Luke would’ve been able to lift the X-Wing if he had the right mindset, as if his mindset was the only thing stopping him from being able to do so. I think it was more of a test from Yoda to see if he would give up or not. (I do realize I’m probably pushing it a little bit)

I always thought he had to get more in tune with the force and that that was like learning to play an instrument, getting to a point where you basically have mastered it.

That’s one of the reasons why I think time is required for one to improve, but not necessarily a teacher to oversee it all. That’s why Luke’s character is believable to me and Rey’s isn’t.

I must say though, you guys are somewhat convincing me that she isn’t as unrealistic as I thought.

liamnotneeson said:

I would see Episode 9 before deciding to take Rose out or not. She may play a big part

This edit is going to work as the finale of the Star Wars saga.