One more thing, to get the timing exactly right, the frame you trim at 1:38:33 should be the last frame before the cut, and the frames you add at 47:37 should be the first frames after the wipe is complete. Uh.. at least I think so...
Teeceezy said:
My expertise in film audio is virtually non-existent. I've used ACID, Audacity and FL Studio for a few years, and have done a bit of video production at University, but it's unlikely anything I ouput would be at the same standard as a lot of the audio work on this forum. So far I have aligned the digital rips against other GOUT-synced audio sources, and patched the disc change gaps with the analogue captures of the theatrical mixes. Outside of that, and matching the master gain to fall in line with other mixes I have not made any changes.
I will scan over these in the next few days, and see what needs fixing. Does anyone know of any particular defects that are in these mixes already?
ROTJ GOUT NTSC-based audio (unfortunately, this includes most of our GOUT-synced audio resources) will fall out of sync with PAL-based projects (all of our big ones) at about 47:37 (just after Luke's last scene on Dagobah) and will continue to be out-of-sync until 1:38:33 (after some Ewoks jump over a log), after which the sync problem becomes so minor you don't notice it anymore. It's worst when you're watching Han speak--other characters either don't move their mouths as much, or speak more slowly, so it's always worst with Han. At its worst, it's only a two-frame sync problem, so some don't notice it at all, but I sure do.
The easiest way to fix this is, once you're done syncing to NTSC, trim one frame from 1:38:33, and then add two frames to 47:37, and patch over the transitions to smooth it out. Ta-daa, it now syncs perfectly with Harmy/dark_jedi/You_Too's projects.
As for the digital rips in particular, I just casually listened enough to declare they sounded great, and to hope someone synced them, sorry ;)
EDIT: Although I'd certainly be willing to give your files-in-progress a test-listen... ;)
First of all--yes, this project has the whole trilogy available in all languages. The subs are in various formats depending on what you're looking for--SRT for software/HTPC playback and SUP for DVDs, Blu-rays, and AVCHDs. English has a couple variations just on its own--typical and SDH (hard of hearing).
The complete project (all languages/all movies/all formats) is available on MySpleen and a.b.starwars. The project package is big, because it has everything. MKVCorp said he uploaded the SRT files only to some web hosters, and you could contact him for the links. I'm a little hands-off on this project right now due to a new baby, so hopefully that will be enough to get you going.
Teeceezy said:
As far as I am aware schorman has these, and they are part of the Star Wars Laser Disc Audio Archive on the 'Spleen. I am looking into syncing these rips to match the other GOUT-synced mixes, as the jump between the Digital rips and the Analogue ones is night and day.
Excellent news. Please consider patching over any problem areas (dropouts, pitch warbles) with the best available other sources, and also making the ROTJ sync match the PAL framecount. Can't wait to hear these all synced up--you're right they sound pretty great unsynced already.
Oh I know. There's definitely going to have to be some sort of sanity checking of any adjustments, but I thought it could be a good first step.
AntcuFaalb said:
The 1985 CAV P&S LD of The Empire Strikes Back might be a good color reference.
I know that the 1985 CAV P&S LD of A New Hope has surprisingly-accurate colors, as it was pressed from a 1982 master.
Would it be possible to see some screencaps of both? i.e. using the Star Wars caps, we could see if there's any global problems to that master/transfer (such as desaturation, weak yellows, poor contrast, etc) because we have such good references there. Then we could look at the Empire screencaps and see if it could possibly be that we could apply the same global fixes there. Just a thought.
Speaking of audio, Belbucus' Audio Resources seem to be missing many critical parts AFAICT (it's pretty old). If anyone can help, let me know.
For those still not quite sure what the difference is between Andrea's project and my own, it's the old and sometimes controversial distinction between "subtitles" and "dubtitles".
Dubs are rarely literal translations of the original dialogue and necessarily introduce some changes. My project's subs attempt to be literal translations of the English audio; this project would create subs that literally match the dubs. Both are "literal", but based on two different audio references. Feel free to use any of my subs as a starting point or reference if it would help.
yoda-sama said:
What I'm wondering is in what aspects exactly does it best it? ...did they somehow mess up how things sound in general; are the audio channels perhaps messed up, or something sound weird throughout, etc.?
I think an audio guy might have a more technically accurate description of what they did, but in 2004, they really screwed up the audio globally, and they never really undid it. It's really screwed up for sure, but I can't say which knobs the audio guy couldn't stop messing with. All I know is they should have fired him for the 2006 DVDs, and they appear to have promoted him so he could do the Blu-rays. The 97 mix wasn't bad, except for the SE changes.
yoda-sama said:
...in '77 in a backwater theater that only had the mono track...
Actually in '77, I believe the term for that sort of theatre was a typical theatre. But yeah, times change and I think that of the original mixes, the 70mm mix has aged best, YMMV.
michaelkirschner said:
So let me ask you guys a question. If I was a Star Wars purist what is the definitive audio track? I have heard that The Beatles in mono is considered the "pure" experience over the stereo track, is this similar for Star Wars or are all audio options equal?
Depends on how you define purist, I'm afraid. All three 77 mixes are original, the rest is arguing over relatively minor details.
msycamore said:
Alderaan shooting first is the worst IMO.
I dunno, for me it's about even with Luke biting the Rancor first.
SilverWook said:
Eddie 2 was an ill conceived follow up when the original film (which didn't make a dent at the box office) became popular on cable and home video, and the soundtrack sold well. I can't even think of a song from the sequel off the top of my head.
I hope you realize we've both just seriously dated ourselves. Now I've got "On the Dark Side" in my head.
Man, and I thought Eddie and the Cruisers 2 epitomized pointless sequels.
analog said:
I thought Harmy had given up on including the 85 stereo mix, as it needed to still be GOUT synched?
Molly synced an LD rip to the GOUT, I haven't done any painstaking verification, but it seems pretty good. It may have imperfect sync or small dropouts here and there, but some of our other tracks seem to as well so I guess that's not unusual.
Harmy--if the lossless file is too big and you don't already have the 85 mix in lossy, I have an AC3 of the same. PM me if you need it.
hairy_hen said:
Thus far in the digital version I have identified 13 audio dropouts, two instances of pitch distortion due to tape damage, and one spot in which the entire stereo image shifts radically to the left due to the right channel dropping in level before returning to what it should be.
Jesus, good ears!
As soon as I have more time I'll be taking care of this, and then uploading DTS-HD MA encodes of the stereo, mono, and '93 mixes for use on the upcoming Bluray. The '85 and 70mm mixes have been provided already, I believe. There is a slight problem in that I'm not actually able to listen to the resulting files once they're encoded, but since I have the official DTS software and its verification capability, there shouldn't be any problems.
That all sounds fantastic. I provided the '85 stereo mix with a minimal 255k core. If that was a bad call, feel free to override me, I don't mind.
chyron8472 said:
I'm sorry, I just find the additions to the Bluray release bordering on offensive.
No need to apologize. I doubt you'd find many here who don't feel similarly or more strongly on this matter. It's why we're here.
animemaakuo said:
I don't have the official Blu-ray on me right now, is the audio difference fairly noticeable?
Yes, and the 6-channel reconstruction used by Harmy is always distinctly better. I don't think it's even subjective.
Please read:
http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Notes-on-Piracy-Please-Read/forum/17/topic/13347/
If you buy used copies, Lucasfilm won't see it as a sale of their crap offering. Also, damaged discs may be available at a discount for those who have no intention of ever watching them. I've found that gluing all of the Blu-rays together and throwing away the cases allows them to take up less room.
I only have one question I'd want answered by a sequel trilogy:
Why was the sequel trilogy made?
Considering that the Star Wars film saga, as far as anyone cared about it, was fully resolved and closed in 1983, what exactly is the point of adding to a story that's already done? What we really do not need is another three movies that cannot even justify their own existence let alone entertain us.
I'm not saying it can't be done, but one of the best things about ROTJ was that it ended the story. Not necessarily well, or entirely satisfactorily, but it ended the story nonetheless. It will be hard to write past that ending.
The GOUT transfer is generally pink-shifted, desaturated, and overly bright compared to the better color references Harmy used. This is due to the GOUT being based on a different print on different filmstock, the fading properties of that filmstock, and just the way it was scanned so many years ago.
Also Harmy tried to adjust the badly mangled Blu-ray colors to match his references, and sometimes he was less successful than other times. He wasn't starting off from a clean, good scan, so there are occasional imperfections. Not that it didn't still result in the best-looking transfer I've ever seen.
TV's Frink said:
The five minute chapter has something to do with AVCHD.
It's the default chapter setting in tsmuxer, if you forget to/don't add your own chapter list. Harmy does already have real chapter stops for the Blu-ray.
Harmy, please consider including a warning in the future that people should not wear their best pants when viewing this. Thanks.
yoda-sama said:Wow, this gives me some inspiration on how to one day approach this with my future children... I've been wondering about it for a while, really hate dubs and haven't been wanting to introduce such things to them in what I feel is sub-par/wrong version.
I was totally trying not to further add to this thread derail. Did everyone notice how good I was being? For like half an hour, even. Nevertheless, don't get too excited about the prospect of your kid liking subbed movies. My oldest boy also didn't mind watching (coincidentally!) subbed Kiki when he was three. Now he's five and he has no patience at all for it. Perhaps because he can read now, but not fast enough to keep up, and the subs are frustrating for him.
What is good one day can be bad the next, that's parenthood. Also don't get excited about your toddler who's not at all afraid of swimming, or who likes eating vegetables. Things change. Every day! Then they change back again just to throw you off.
jdshald said:
ok thanks catbus. and thanks for doing the subs for 2.1 release btw.
ps do you like watching my neighbor totoro in english dub or in japanese with subs. lol just wondering. kinda a studio ghibli fan. the only ghibli films I don't watch with subtitles are howl's moving castle, my neighbor totoro and castle in the sky. All the rest I prefer it in Japanese besides Nausicaa which I like watching in french with English subs.
I've got young kids, so while I prefer to watch everything subbed (and I'm even one of those snooty ones who also prefers the literal subs on the Japanese discs), I'll be watching with dubs exclusively for many, many years and they may grow on me. FWIW I do like one dub--the French dub for Porco Rosso is phenomenally good. I often choose to watch that movie dubbed in French with English subs (I don't know any French). Okay, back on-topic ;)