CatBus

Yeah, Hindi’s a bit of a mess, but we’re working on it. I don’t consider a language “supported” unless it’s got full subtitles for the whole trilogy. Hindi subtitles are just a few lines to cover the Greedo/Jabba dialogue, when you’re watching with the dub. And even then, some lines are translated by someone who knows the language and some are Google Translate by-products. I’m working on fixing that last part right now.

So, as for showing up as the default track, I’m updating my MKV instructions so that none of the subs are on by default (change the “default track” flag for all subtitle tracks from “determine automatically” to “no”). As for not showing up at all, you won’t see them unless you watch the Greedo scene or the Jabba scenes–there’s no subtitles to see in any other scenes.

If you live in an area with a big Hindi-speaking population, you can help! First off, the dubs–if any broadcaster shows the trilogy with the Hindi dub, record it (audio only is fine). I can use this to fill the gaps in the Hindi audio and make them complete. Even friends with old VHS tapes could help here. Secondly, the subtitles–I’ve got someone who I think is onboard only for translating a few alien dialogue lines, but can’t commit to translating the whole deal. However, translating everything is a much, much easier job when a dub exists (i.e. for the most part, you just need to transcribe the dub, not make a new translation), so you may be able to rope someone into doing this, using our English template files and the incomplete dubs.

As far as I know there’s no limit for MKV. DVD and Blu-ray are each limited to 32 subtitle tracks, so for those formats, you’ll need to prioritize which ones you really want. I’ve given some suggestions for how to do this in the README file, but really it’s subjective based on what your target is (i.e. I prioritize based on number of speakers, but if you’re targeting Europe, you may want to skip Korean and include Finnish). Some tools might complain when you go over 32 due to this limit, but I haven’t seen anything indicating it’s a problem inherent in MKV or even M2TS.

No, what Frink’s saying is that if User A requests something from anyone reading the thread, and User B sends them a PM, User B posting in the thread that they sent a PM serves the function of preventing users C-Z from feeling they also need to send PM’s to User A. The post in the thread isn’t actually for User A to read, it’s for Users C-Z.

I’m afraid I use this a lot in my thread as getting multiple–and possibly different–responses to a single request could be very confusing for non-native English speakers. Probably my case differs a bit from the MySpleen case, but the basic premise is the same. It’s not an easy problem to solve.

Just finished Breaking Blue by Timothy Egan, and it was pretty good. It’s historical with a true crime/police procedural/character study flavor. Basically the story of the investigation of a very, very old murder case. There’s not much suspense (although there is the occasional surprise)–you know exactly who did it pretty much all along. It’s a question of digging through scant evidence, old/dying witnesses, and fighting the “blue wall” going back decades.

So it’s not your typical murder mystery or true crime story. It would appeal more to people who read books about historical events. I thought the main investigator was a great example of someone who was a good decent person, who did good work and did the right thing, and nevertheless came off as a pretty big pain in the ass. But that you pretty much have to be a big pain in the ass to break the blue wall.

Also, some software players don’t like DTS-MA tracks, so you may need to select an alternate Dolby Digital track.

Williarob said:

CatBus said:

No, synced is a timing thing. All GOUT-synced audio will work with any GOUT-synced video, so people’s lips match up with the words coming out of their mouths, etc. Silver Screen isn’t GOUT-synced, so you are a little more limited in your audio options (or you add dark frames for the missing video to make it GOUT-synced, either way).

…

Just to clarify: Star Wars Silver Screen Edition v1.0 is not GOUT sync’d but v1.6 is.

Glad to hear. Do you know if filling in the gaps was accomplished with GOUT frames or black frames, or some other method?

Faithwyn said:

The same applies to Catbus’s subtitles, which I believe I could
add up to around 30!

Edit: Wow! I’m late on this one, I’ll let Cat field these! LOL!!!

Aw, shucks 😉 Also, FWIW, the subtitles in Project Threepio are GOUT-synced, but the project includes utilities that allow people to resync them to other sources. Subtitles are easier to resync than audio, so it can be fully automated.

yaboykevin01 said:

I think I understand about the sync thing. It’s synced to GOUT, but not to, say, the 2004 DVD because of additional scenes like the Jabba scene, which would throw off the whole thing. Sound effects and takes of lines are different according to the track, but it would still line up with when they happen in the movie. Is that right?

No, it’s even more specific. Let’s say the GOUT has 170,000 frames (made up number alert). Then let’s say Silver screen has 169,880 frames. It’s the same movie, same version, same cut, same scenes, but one simply runs a bit longer than the other because of extra frames at reel changes. And the audio from one won’t work with video from the other. It only takes two frames for audio to be annoyingly out-of-sync, and they’d be off by a lot more than that. It would be like an 80’s Hong Kong dub, except where the sound effects don’t line up either.

yaboykevin01 said:

I’ve seen some comparisons of the stereo and mono before. Do you know exactly what the differences between the 6-channel and the stereo were?

They’re extremely similar. I know there’s a kind of spitting sound Luke makes in the part where he says Han’s going to get himself killed. It’s in the 6-channel but not the stereo.

Empire had three original mixes, the 35mm stereo, the 16mm mono, and the 70mm 6-channel. The 70mm version was a different video cut, and we don’t have a good preservation of that (there’s an 8mm digest which has bits of it, if you want your mind blown).

Do you know which versions (official home release or fan preservation) use each TESB mix? I’m inclined to believe the Grindhouse would use the 35mm stereo, insofar as it also uses the 35mm video. Assuming the 70mm 6-channel audio is lost along with the video, is there a good place to find the 16mm mono track?

It’s included with Despecialized, originally from Puggo. You are correct that Grindhouse uses 35mm stereo. Never say never on the 70mm cut, but yeah, nothing good-quality has surfaced. The 8mm digest is the best we really have, and it’s barely worth mentioning.

No, synced is a timing thing. All GOUT-synced audio will work with any GOUT-synced video, so people’s lips match up with the words coming out of their mouths, etc. Silver Screen isn’t GOUT-synced, so you are a little more limited in your audio options (or you add dark frames for the missing video to make it GOUT-synced, either way).

They don’t sync because projection prints are often missing a frame or two at the ends of reels. Also the GOUT may very well have included more frames than any theatrical print would have included. Either way, the audio for one won’t line up with the video from the other.

All of Harmy’s versions are GOUT-synced, so you’ve got the widest range of audio options. Film scan-based preservations can’t really be GOUT-synced unless you add the extra frames from another source (or blank frames) at the reel ends. There are lots and lots of GOUT-synced audio tracks, not just the tracks from the GOUT.

For the OT, ask yourself this question: is what you’re looking for exactly what people saw in the theaters, projection prints with dirt/scratches/burn marks included, or are you looking for what a respectful Blu-ray release would have looked like, going back to original negatives and getting a high-res scan that actually shows a little more detail than would have been visible in the theatre, but still using all-original elements.

If it’s the latter, I’d recommend Harmy’s Despecialized for all three. SW 2.7 is the one I’d recommend, although it’s still far from perfect. I can see why people would prefer Silver Screen even if they’re looking for the respectful Blu-ray treatment, so it’s worth a look, but it’s not for me. For ROTJ, 2.5 is easily the best presentation IMO. ESB 2.0 is nearly as good as ROTJ 2.5, but not quite. A few warts that will hopefully be fixed soon in ESB 2.5. Yes, they technically include SE elements, but at this point it’s nearly impossible to find them unless you’re a much, much pickier fan than me.

There are lots of original audio options. Star Wars in 1977 had three different soundtracks (6-channel, stereo, and mono), which had different content (although the 6-channel and stereo were very, very similar). All of them are “original” (and I’m ignoring the fold-down options because that confuses matters even more). Lots of people here like mono best, because it’s what most theatres were equipped to play in 77. I prefer the 6-channel reconstruction because, again, it’s what a respectful Blu-ray release would have sounded like. Empire had three original mixes, the 35mm stereo, the 16mm mono, and the 70mm 6-channel. The 70mm version was a different video cut, and we don’t have a good preservation of that (there’s an 8mm digest which has bits of it, if you want your mind blown). The 6-channel option you get with Despecialized is essentially just a tasteful upmix of the original stereo mix. Jedi only had stereo and 6-channel, and again our 6-channel option is essentially a tasteful upmix or the original stereo, since we don’t have any references for the 6-channel (but we think it’s content-identical).

The 2006 bonus DVD were the theatrical video, as far as anyone’s able to say with certainty (there’s a few dubious quibbles). The main gripe is that they just suck, quality-wise. Also the audio isn’t theatrical at all, which is most relevant for Star Wars and Empire, since there are content differences between the mixes they used and the theatrical mixes (they used the 93 remixes for all three films).

You’re not supposed to play the RARs directly, you’re supposed to extract the media files inside the RARs (typically MKV files). A RAR is like a ZIP file, it’s just a container for other files. I’m guessing that because the Star Wars RAR filename includes the MKV extension, VLC can figure out more about the contents of Star Wars RAR than it can with Empire, and I guess that means it can play the RARs directly. But you don’t need to do it that way.

Vietnamese subtitles were added relatively recently, so older versions of Despecialized don’t have them (such as Empire). You can download the current version of Project Threepio (also on TehParadox, see first post) and add them yourself.

I definitely would want some checking done with the Vietnamese subs. These are random SE fansubs I found on the Internet, that I modified to match Harmy’s versions. They could have major problems (from the original or my conversion), for which I apologize. If you have corrected text or even complete corrected SRT files, you can PM me.

Swift S. Lawliet said:

clutchins said:

Swift S. Lawliet said:

I have some other suggestions:

1. I think the English mono tracks for Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back should be LPCM 1.0 instead of DTS-HD Master Audio since there is little difference in quality and/or size and LPCM has increased compatibility compared to DTS-HD Master Audio.

2. I also think that the English 35mm Stereo mixes should be Dolby TrueHD instead of DTS-HD Master Audio so that there can be surround matrixing similar to the LaserDisc audio.
   Dolby TrueHD has this Dolby Pro Logic capability but for DTS-HD Master Audio, I’m not sure.
   There was apparently something called DTS Stereo which was used on some LaserDiscs and theatrical releases but I’m not sure if it can be used in the modernized DTS and DTS-HD codecs.
   I also think that the alternative English LaserDisc mixes should also be in Dolby TrueHD, if it is still allowed in the 48MBps bitrate limit of Blu-ray.

3. What do you think of the isolated score being in LPCM 2.0? Already posted about it but barely anyone replied to it.

I second this

Wait. I also forgot:

4. I think the 5.1 mixes should be in 6.1 or 7.1 instead (most likely 6.1)
   I actually talked to hairy_hen about this, he said he probably couldn’t perfectly test this as he only has a 5.1 system and is not entirely sure on how good it would sound.

I’m not sure of the value of this. If the whole point of the 5.1 mix is to approximate the theatrical 6-channel mix, wouldn’t adding extra channels move it further from that goal? It’s already a little bit off because 5.1 doesn’t quite equal 4.2–but there’s no home video 4.2 standard, so 5.1 is about as close as you can get. I suppose you could do 6.1 and have the two rear channels duplicate the center rear (effectively 4.1), but that seems a lot of effort (and duplicated audio data) for a dubious return, and you could accomplish more-or-less the same with a phantom center in 5.1 if that was your goal. It’d upmix to sound exactly like that on 6.1 systems anyway.

Now if the point was to make an entirely new and spiffy 6.1 or 7.1 mix, without any attempt to be authentic to the original, maybe that’d be fine.

cybrsage said:

yoda-sama said:

My God… it is the coming of the Frinkpocalypse…

I heard he was tapped to be Trump’s Internet Czar…

That’s not what Trump meant by “I’d tap that!”

That’s OK. That applies to any dub, any language, any time.

For my purposes (meaning: to sync to the GOUT), all I need is audio in the best possible quality. No video required, no sync of any sort required, no commercials edited out, etc. I’m willing to wait for the whole trilogy, though, it’s not like I don’t have plenty else to do in the meantime.

If, however, there are subtitles to cover things like the crawl or alien dialogue that they opted not to dub over, then I’d need that text. Screenshots or transcriptions are fine, video isn’t required.

The only copy I know of is on the newsgroups (still? i dunno), and don’t ask me for any help regarding newsgroups

simps said:

So, those “theatrical versions” were only made for those GOUT DVDs from 2006? They weren’t the “original” dubs that were released to theaters?

No, from what I can remember, they are at least supposed to be the same as the original theatrical dubs. My guess is that if they took the original dub and laid it over revised audio, it would be pretty easy to check. Just check the Star Wars cell block shoot-out scene for the sound of shattering glass. If that sound effect isn’t there, that is probably the original dub straight through. If shattering glass is there, then they took the original dub and laid it over revised audio.

I’m excluding SE dubs from this discussion because I know nothing about them.

The Japanese GOUT discs have two dubs apiece for SW and ESB, and one for ROTJ. All of these are preserved, I believe, on a.b.starwars. That would be the theatrical and home video (VHS/Laserdisc) dubs for SW and ESB, and the home video dub for ROTJ, in two-channel Dolby Digital form. The home video versions of these are available in the Despecialized Editions. I typically don’t keep more than one dub around per language, so I no longer have the theatrical dubs.

I don’t know how many iterations of the home video dub there are–I don’t think the actual dub was ever done more than once, but there were other audio revisions for SW in 85 & 93, and ESB and ROTJ in 93, at least in the English releases. That means if you include the same dub overlaid on different soundtrack as a different dub, you get potentially four SW dubs, three ESB dubs, and two ROTJ dubs, not including SE dubs.

FWIW, the English 93 audio revisions for ESB and ROTJ had no significant content changes other than a missing sound effect in ESB, so it may not be worth collecting this particular variant.

I don’t know anything about a TV dub that’s different in any way from the home video dub. I guess it’s possible there are variations where the broadcaster dubbed over the crawl, etc.

By the way, I have trouble following all the different interconnected projects, but what’s the color correction strategy for Poita/DeEdvWhatever? Is it DrDre utilities, color references, old skool, winging it, or some combination of the above? Does Harmy correct what he gets from Poita, or does he consider what he gets from Poita to be already a color reference? That sort of thing.

Once we have a dub, our next job is to track down someone with a good grasp of Tagalog to convert them to subtitles, then we can get dubs and subtitles at once.

Regarding software, for rendering the graphical ones, I’ve gone through many pieces of software and decided I’m just too particular and wrote my own. It’s a Python script included in the project files (which in turn relies on ImageMagick, Pango, and some font files). It’s pretty customized to this project’s needs and I don’t know how well it would work for other projects.

Regarding Tagalog, just capture what you can and wait for the missing parts to get filled in later. I can wait a long time.

This is a general appeal for help. I’m working on Turkish dubs for the trilogy, and the only major problem is that the (1997SE?) sources I’m using have been re-edited to match the 2011SE. This isn’t a big deal except for the Emperor scene in ESB, which is significantly different between the 1997SE and the 2011SE. Of the three sources I’ve found, two just use English audio for that scene, and one uses a not-very-seamlessly edited mix of Turkish and English, and it’s in lower quality than the others too.

So, if anyone knows where I can find an unedited and complete version of the Emperor scene in Turkish, that would be really helpful. Just that scene, I’ve got everything else covered. I’m pretty crap at searching some of the darker recesses of the Internet, but also I’d be happy with YouTube at this point.

If you get another shot at the Tagalog dub, let me know – I’m still interested. FWIW I’m not interested in working with prequel of sequel dubs, just the OT. This project is about making these specific lost films available to a worldwide audience – if it’s possible to buy, rent, or stream a film, then I believe you should just buy, rent, or stream it.