CatBus

Haarspalter said:

Darth Cracker said:

Seems every time there’s an anniversary we all get our hopes up and then… (insert Vader-esque “Nooooooooooo!!!” here)

We should create a [Crushed OUT Hopes Memorial Thread]. Imagine the discussions about the OUT in 60 years: “You know what, STAR WARS’ 100th anniversary is coming up. Oh well, since McDonalds bought Disney after the Third World War we should get our hopes high that we will finally get the OUT.”

Thread already exists:

http://originaltrilogy.com/topic/Star-wars-40th-anniversary/id/51223/page/2

I still have dubs on the 50th, 100th is still available.

Revolution said:

Is there even a true source of the 70mm 6 channel audio?

We have an in-theatre recording, but those aren’t really good enough to turn into a real soundtrack. They make fine references though.

Err, and here’s my “wrong movie” original answer (about Star Wars, not Empire):

The track we have now is assembled from “true enough” sources for my tastes. As hairy_hen said earlier, the 70mm mix was based on a four-channel master, which can mostly be gotten back to via the 35mm matrixed stereo. Then, we have an in-theatre recording of the 70mm audio which allows us to know the timing and relative volume of the differences from the 35mm version, minus the channel info. And we have SE audio which contains these differences, which can be mixed in at the appropriate places, to achieve a pretty accurate reconstruction of at least the four main channels of the 70mm mix. I’m not sure how h_h handled the LFE audio, but that may have involved a little more guesswork, adjusting and modifying the equivalent SE channels to create something more faithful to the original.

hairy_hen said:

The 8mm version, contrary to what was stated earlier, is not at all the same as the 70mm. While it does use a number of the early visual composites created for the 70 which were replaced in the 35, the audio track is entirely separate, and its numerous differences in ADR are not present in the 70mm mix.

Good to know. I assumed if we were seeing 70mm visual differences, the audio differences would have to be from 70mm as well. I guess that’s what I get for assuming 😉

Faithwyn said:

Edit: Had to add this! I just watched a bit of ROTJ with the ‘Tamil’ Dub,
only the “Vader arrives” part. Damn, they got a creepy guy to do Vaders
voice! I thought the lip syncing by the Commander looked real good too!

If you’re already watching with the Tamil dub, go ahead and watch a bit more. It is by far the weirdest dub I’ve found. In particular, the “heavy breathing” by any character who’s onscreen not saying anything, and the fact that some of the Ewok lines are dubbed… either in Tamil or in a nonsense language by Tamil voice actors, I can’t tell which. Also watch Empire for snatches of English phrases spoken by the Tamil speakers, such as Luke telling R2 to shut up, or Han telling Luke “I hate you” after Leia kisses Luke. Seriously, it’s wild. I wish we had the whole thing.

Okay I’ve given up (for now) on getting improved sources for the Turkish dubs, so I’m uploading them in their current state now. Links will be posted at the usual places within a few days.

Similar to the situation with the Hindi dubs, I was working with audio that had already been edited. However, the quality of the editing was much better this time, and I was able to get complete dubs for both Star Wars and Jedi. Empire, however, still has the Emperor scene in English, presumably because the Turkish dub originally went with the 1997SE, but had been edited in my sources to go with the 2011SE, and the editors couldn’t make it fit. (actually, I found a version that did translate some of those lines into Turkish, but the quality was poor, and it was still incomplete, so I didn’t incorporate that audio)

The next version of Project Threepio will include Turkish “titles” subs, which subtitle only the parts not translated by the dub–just the crawls in this case, plus the Emperor scene.

Thanks to ccfilms for helping me shop around for sources, and putting out an appeal for the missing audio on a Turkish-language Star Wars fan site.

Possessed said:

I think the 1997 mix is the best for the original star wars though. It sounds really good.

Agreed. SE changes aside, the 97 mixes were very good. They didn’t start really mucking things up in general until 2004. Same with the colors.

Possessed said:

So wait does the stereo theatrical mix from the laserdisc actually sound better than the blu rays (content aside) or are people just being dramatic? Legitimate question because I’m working on my own personal custom mux of the film.

Better is subjective, but IMO it sounds a lot better. But people care about different things: the Blu is often (but not always) better in things like clarity and noise, but in every other respect, mixing levels, EQ, etc, it’s a lot worse.

Moth3r said:

What are the minor differences between the 35mm and the 70mm audio? I seem to remember something about a missing effect during the snowspeeder crash.

Am I correct in thinking that the list of audio differences in the wikipedia article is incorrect and actually represents differences between the theatrical and SE mix?

I wouldn’t classify them as minor myself–yes, effects and mixing are very similar, but there’s different dialogue in a number of places. The most jarring one being what the Cloud City escort says to Han, but there’s also a few extra C-3PO lines (not the same as the 16mm ones). I think that’s also where some of the SE alternate takes come from (“get the shelter built” vs. “get the shelter up”, etc). It’s really worth downloading and watching the Puggo Edition 8mm digest (which is based on a 70mm reduction), even though it’s not the complete film. It’s really odd to hear (and see) the changes. And in one case, Leia’s line in the 35mm mix didn’t line up with her lip movements, but her alternate line in the 70mm mix does (the “I know where Luke is” scene)!

EDIT: Also, the missing snowspeeder crash was a problem with the 93 mix. Since hairy_hen derived his 1980 5.1 mix from the 1993 mix, he took the snowspeeder crash from another source.

To do DTS-MA, you need the DTS Encoder Suite, commercial software. That’s part of why WAV files/PCM audio is so popular for lossless stereo tracks.

EDIT: Whoops, missed the whole last page…

Revolution said:

CatBus said:

yaboykevin01 said:

What is the difference between the 5.1 1980 mix and the 2.0 1980 mix? Are there any content differences, or are they just mixed through more channels?

Also, does the 16mm mono track differ from those two in any way?

IIRC, the 5.1 1980 mix is just the matrixed stereo upmixed to 5.1, with some of the LFE channel from other sources like the Blu-rays where they still seem decent. In other words, it’s a nice, tasteful upmix of the stereo mix. Unlike Star Wars, it is NOT an attempt to reproduce the original six-channel mix. And unlike Jedi, we know that there are content differences from the six-channel mix, but the six-channel mix didn’t apply to this cut of the film. So no content differences, just more channels, technically not theatrical but not actively revisionist in any way.

The 16mm track is way different. C-3PO gets some different lines (ones that later showed up in the Special Editions), and the mixing is occasionally a bit different too.

So in other words the 5.1 is just stereo? It does sound amazing but just interested as i thought it was a pure 5.1 source. Is there any interest in obtaining a true 5.1 source or using the 6.1 source from the blu rays etc?

• Rev

No, it’s an upmix of matrixed stereo, not plain stereo, which gives you 4 distinct channels. Mix in the LFE and it’s true 4.1, upmixed to 5.1. The channels aren’t as distinct as a modern discrete mix but they’re distinct enough. However, it is just the stereo mix, i.e. sound effects and dialogue specific to the stereo mix. No content from the original mono or six-channel mixes.

The point of the 1980 six-channel mix is to be authentic yet multichannel. You could certainly get more channels from the Blu-ray, but you’d lose everything else–quality, authenticity, etc. 4.1/5.1 is about as good as you can expect in this regards when the cadillac best-of-breed audio in 1980 was 4.2. The only thing theoretically better would be a preservation of the 70mm version of the video with accompanying six-channel audio, but that’s unlikely–and frankly I don’t like the 70mm cut as well, so what we have now is still better, IMO.

alexp120 said:

It is possible to insert 6.1 sound from the Blu Ray to the Despecialized edition, however the Blu Ray is the special edition cut with added shots not seen in the Despecialized edition.

Also the audio quality on the Blu-rays is fairly tragic, so if you can find a nice, alternative lossless source (which we have), you’ll end up with considerably better results than anything using the Blu-rays as a significant source. You’re not going to improve anything by pulling in audio from an inferior source, regardless of the nominal channels.

yaboykevin01 said:

CatBus said:

yaboykevin01 said:

What is the difference between the 5.1 1980 mix and the 2.0 1980 mix? Are there any content differences, or are they just mixed through more channels?

Also, does the 16mm mono track differ from those two in any way?

And unlike Jedi, we know that there are content differences from the six-channel mix, but the six-channel mix didn’t apply to this cut of the film.

Which cut of the film does the six-channel mix apply to? And where can I find a list of differences between the original stereo and the six-channel mix?

The six-channel mix goes with the 70mm cut of the film. The 35mm cut only had stereo (and mono in the 16mm reductions). I’m not sure there’s a complete catalog of audio changes, but if you search for differences between the 70mm version of Empire and the 35mm version of Empire, some audio differences are included in the mix. You can also watch Puggo’s 8mm digest to see and hear many of them.

mkmossop said:

Anyone know if there’s a plan to do Episodes V and VI? For some reason I got it in my mind that this was all three episodes and was disappointed to see it was only Episode IV (I am still very grateful for just this one though).

Empire and Jedi have already been done, and IMO are already in much better condition than Star Wars. They have separate discussion threads in this forum. A newer version of Empire is currently in the works.

yaboykevin01 said:

What is the difference between the 5.1 1980 mix and the 2.0 1980 mix? Are there any content differences, or are they just mixed through more channels?

Also, does the 16mm mono track differ from those two in any way?

IIRC, the 5.1 1980 mix is just the matrixed stereo upmixed to 5.1, with some of the LFE channel from other sources like the Blu-rays where they still seem decent. In other words, it’s a nice, tasteful upmix of the stereo mix. Unlike Star Wars, it is NOT an attempt to reproduce the original six-channel mix. And unlike Jedi, we know that there are content differences from the six-channel mix, but the six-channel mix didn’t apply to this cut of the film. So no content differences, just more channels, technically not theatrical but not actively revisionist in any way.

The 16mm track is way different. C-3PO gets some different lines (ones that later showed up in the Special Editions), and the mixing is occasionally a bit different too.

whaleman said:

Harmy said:

Chewtobacca’s NTSC DVD5 is now available through tehp.

Video: NTSC DVD-5
Audio: AC-3 5.1 at 448kbps (hairy_hen’s latest mix)
GOUT chapter-stops

Thanks as always, Chewtobacca!

Hey guys, a question about the Chewtobacca DVD5 of RotJ 2.5. Does this contain a menu or just the movie itself? I burned the files and it plays in my dvd player but it goes straight into the movie…awesome quality by the way:) Just wanted to know if there is a menu that I am missing out on by burning it wrong? Thanks guys and keep up the AWESOME work!!

It’s just the movie.

FWIW, Czech subs are a much better match for the Slovak dub than Slovenian, if you have to choose a mismatched language with hopes of intelligibility.

Heh, Slovenian and Slovak are different (but related) languages, language code slv and slk respectively. The difference between dialects and languages is always a fuzzy area and often has a little politics mixed in for spice.

Slavic languages have varying degrees of mutual intelligibility, and I don’t particularly care to delve into what qualifies as a distinct language versus a dialect. If it gets a different language code, I call it another language. Besides, writing systems throw a whole different spanner into the mix–Serbian and Croatian are the same language when spoken, but Croatian is written exclusively in Latin characters, while Serbian can use Cyrillic or Latin. Same with Urdu and Hindi–they’re mutually intelligible dialects when spoken, but they use totally different alphabets when written and are indecipherable to each other. So what’s the same language for a dub may be two different languages for subtitles!

In more practical news, I have been trying to rope pittrek into making me some Slovak subtitles. No luck yet.

yaboykevin01 said:

CatBus said:

No video preservation that I know of has the full 70mm audio, since no preservation has the 70mm video. Even then, we’d be talking mono tracks from in-theatre recordings or reconstructed from the 8mm digest. It’d be pretty ugly, although maybe possible if you wanted mismatched audio badly enough.

Didn’t morgands1 preserve a tape recording of The Empire Strikes Back from a 70mm showing in 1980?

EDIT: A recording of the audio, not the video.

That’s what I meant by a mono in-theatre recording. Yes, it’s technically possible, but it’s a pretty odd request. The 35mm video was never shown with 70mm audio, so it wouldn’t be so much a preservation as a fan-edit. And the result wouldn’t sound very good either, so I suppose that’s why nobody’s jumped on it: i.e. it’s a custom version of Empire that’s not the least bit authentic and also sounds bad.

No video preservation that I know of has the full 70mm audio, since no preservation has the 70mm video. Even then, we’d be talking mono tracks from in-theatre recordings or reconstructed from the 8mm digest. It’d be pretty ugly, although maybe possible if you wanted mismatched audio badly enough.

Check the first post of Project Threepio, for a link to tehParadox. That’ll get you pointed in the right direction.

FWIW, I’ve gotten radio silence from RonSolo for quite a while, so I’m assuming we’re in a holding pattern waiting for another victimvolunteer to be our voice talent.

Everything’s NTSC now.

I try to post info on dubs here:

http://originaltrilogy.com/topic/International-Audio-including-Voice-Over-Translations/id/14451

…and the descriptive audio thread is here:

http://originaltrilogy.com/topic/Star-Wars-films-with-audio-description-Can-anyone-help-out/id/4933

But to answer the question more specifically, I think the only dubs added would be incomplete dubs for Hindi and Tamil, and the Slovak dub has also been improved. There’s also an incomplete Turkish dub I haven’t released yet because all I need is one stupid little bit of audio and then it will be complete. Argh. Incomplete dubs, BTW, are because the source material comes from torrents that apparently weren’t very carefully edited and were missing chunks. I’ve got someone checking a Turkish Star Wars fan forum for me, fingers crossed.

As for descriptive audio–check the relevant thread. I’ve written the scripts using the Special Edition descriptive tracks as a reference and all I need is voice talent for the voiceover. Please tell me one of you is Cate Blanchett. Then I just splice and dice and we’ve got descriptive audio tracks. The descriptive track for Star Wars needs work, so it’d be included in the package.

I’m not interested in “despecializing” the SE descriptive tracks because the voiceover makes despecialization even trickier, and the quality is so poor that even if I pulled it off, it wouldn’t sound very good. Part of the joy of Star Wars is the impressive score, and it would be particularly galling not to let that shine through on a track for the blind.

Thanks to lusho720, we have a new source for the Han-Greedo scene. It’s also an old VHS capture with some muffling, but the quality is good, considering. In its current state, it’s not much different than what we have now, but I think it may respond better to attempts to un-muffle the audio, because it hasn’t already been processed like the other track. We’ll see.

If anyone has any experience un-muffling old VHS tapes, let me know. I’m brand new to this.

EDIT: I think this will result in a marginal improvement. I was able to do a spectrum analysis on the 35mm audio and equivalent section of VHS audio, generate a custom EQ to match, and it comes out still pretty muffled but without the boomy bass of the original VHS section (the 35mm track is a little treble-heavy due to lack of Dolby NR, and that hasn’t changed). So compared with the way it was before, the quality still drops but the EQ matches better. I think that’s a good thing. I’ll give it some more time for listening and correction attempts before I make the call to upload it or not.

I can take care of this.

All subs with “-titles” in the filename just subtitle onscreen text that isn’t dubbed over. It can include the crawl, alien dialogue, and the text on those tractor beam controls in Star Wars. The point of them is so that you can watch with a dub and not have to be able to either read English text, or have an internationalized copy of the trilogy with a translated crawl and alien subs (such as our Krieg der Sterne preservation).

The Hindi dub is a little special in that I don’t actually know if the dub covers the alien dialogue. The copy of the dub I have (from a torrent) is missing many parts, including all of the alien dialogue, and these parts are in English until I can find a more complete source. I don’t plan on providing subtitles for the other gaps because I know those are supposed to be dubbed.