CatBus

The past few days have been, to me, the definition of how Democrats always, always, always fall for it.

For the past decade or so, Republicans have made a habit of getting the name of the Democratic Party wrong, just for yuks. Democrats then spend half their available airtime/screentime/op-ed space explaining what the name of their party is, and their available space for talking about actual policy issues is diminished. Trump spends a surprising proportion of the primary talking about the size of his penis. Democrats then go into a tizzy about who was talking about what idiotic things in the Republican Party debates, instead of, you know, meaningful issues. Now we’re talking about crowd sizes instead of the DOJ switching sides on the Voting Rights Act, or any other major issue of the day.

Yeah, I get it. Getting the name of a major political party wrong makes you look like an idiot. Talking about your penis size makes you look like an idiot. Having a loud and public on-camera argument with reality makes you look like an idiot.

But you know what else makes you look like an idiot? When you’ve got actual important things to talk about and you let your opposition sideline your entire message with this nonsense. Ultimately, it does not matter what the names of our political parties are, or how big our respective body parts are, or if we’re really bad at counting people. But if we can spend four years talking about stuff that doesn’t matter when so much critical stuff is happening all around us, we are really, really done for.

I’ll PM you with a link to the latest files in case there’s a difference between them and what you saw (I don’t think there is, but just to be sure). You can then PM me back with a link to the updated files, or if it’s just a few lines, just send the corrections. The Dutch subs are direct from the GOUT, which generally have been decent but not without problems.

PM sent, and it’s never a problem.

tomalakis said:

CatBus said:

tomalakis said:

One another note about the czech dub. One member named pittrek replied to my original post and send me both czech dub versions for every Harmy’s mkv file and I must say that they fits perfectly, so far I didnt noticed any desync…however that’s not the case for the dub syncs included in the actual mkvs. Some parts are so horribly out of sync that it is practically unwatchable. Especially in ROTJ (Yoda closes his mouth, then you hear him talking…i noticed that one part of Endor battle is about 2 sec desync…etc).
So i would strongly recommend to ask pittrek if he would be willing to include his dub syncs to the mkvs or in some other way made them public, because it would be shame (for czech viewers) to not include them.

Actually I’m finding lots of sync problems in both versions of the dub (I don’t usually pay much attention to lip sync because that can simply be off in dubs, but the lip sync is way off IMO and the sound effects are off quite a bit too). I think I’m going to try to sort this out once and for all and get a solid sync, starting with pittrek’s sources.

and do you mean the pittreks syncs? really? sound effects are off? thats strange i really didnt encounter any desync, but so far i was mainly checking bits where you can clearly match the sound like shots, clanking, saber clashes, button push etc. mouth dont fit 100% with any dub…i was also mainly focusing on the second dub version. i will check the first one more thoroughly too

Yes, but I’m referring to the pre-95 dubs, so maybe the 95 ones are synced better.

tomalakis said:

One another note about the czech dub. One member named pittrek replied to my original post and send me both czech dub versions for every Harmy’s mkv file and I must say that they fits perfectly, so far I didnt noticed any desync…however that’s not the case for the dub syncs included in the actual mkvs. Some parts are so horribly out of sync that it is practically unwatchable. Especially in ROTJ (Yoda closes his mouth, then you hear him talking…i noticed that one part of Endor battle is about 2 sec desync…etc).
So i would strongly recommend to ask pittrek if he would be willing to include his dub syncs to the mkvs or in some other way made them public, because it would be shame (for czech viewers) to not include them.

Actually I’m finding lots of sync problems in both versions of the dub (I don’t usually pay much attention to lip sync because that can simply be off in dubs, but the lip sync is way off IMO and the sound effects are off quite a bit too). I think I’m going to try to sort this out once and for all and get a solid sync, starting with pittrek’s sources.

If anyone can confirm and fix these issues in the current dub, I can handle getting them in the right places. I might also be able to do this, but I’m a little busy ATM.

I keep a copy around mostly as a cautionary tale for family members considering watching a prequel. The upside of the kids only having watched the OOT and the Disney films is obvious – but the downside is that they really don’t know how bad some parts of the Star Wars catalog can get, and could naively end up watching ROTS if they’re not careful. Show them the Holiday Special, assure them all of the prequels are much, much worse, and now they’re pretty safe without any of the pain and scarring. It’s a prequel vaccine, basically. A little cowpox to prevent smallpox.

yoda-sama said:

NeverarGreat said:

I’m still getting used to having 3PO blink at me. I can almost sleep at night.

He honestly does that in the 80’s cartoon series, it is creepy and weird.

This will be cited as proof he’d originally intended it to be that way all along.

yoda-sama said:

@Faithwyn

So, you’re telling me they can fix the colors of this scene, but not Obi-wan’s creepy leering at Luke?

To be fair, on the Blu-ray, Obi-Wan’s eyes blink now.

There’s a one-frame difference in the current ESB video. There are also always minor ADR issues, such as when the take used for the video isn’t the same as the take used for the audio (or even when they’re not saying the same words in both takes, which does happen in Empire). Also, some PC playback software has a decoder delay for certain codecs. I’ve seen the exact same track encoded as DTS-MA and AC3 be both out of sync and in sync, respectively. Use a hardware player to be sure.

19sban said:

So after ESB 2.5 comes out, are you going to start work on the 1080p Despecialized trilogy?

He’s used up all his vacation and sick leave, so he really doesn’t have any choice but to get right back to work.

No, I will be the pattern of all patience; I will say nothing.
– Puggo, from King Lear, Act III, Scene 2

Alderaan said:

I’m not an audiophile, but I found the sound effects for the 5.1 to be amazing while the music cues and dialogue were sometimes too soft. Is that fair or am I crazy?

I’m guessing that’s the stereo mixdown h_h was warning about. 5.1 mixes mixed down to 2.0/2.1 get softer than if they’re played back on a native surround system. I think there’s even some cases where you could hear this on a surround system, if your TV doesn’t do 5.1 passthru on optical, so it mixes down to stereo, then your receiver mixes it back up again.

But basically, the advice holds: if you’ve got a stereo system, listen to the stereo mix. It’ll be clearer due to lack of mixdown.

I don’t know if this project is still being assisted by any active forum members, but I just completed a minor revision of the Latino Spanish dub. Negative1 would typically get a lossless copy from me for this project, but I’m not sure what username to contact anymore for things like this. Let me know. It’s not uploaded quite yet, but will be soon.

I’ve decided to update my “official” copy of the Latino Star Wars dub using the new VHS capture, and I’ll be providing updates in the usual places. Do not expect a miraculous change. The only audio changed at all is the ~1 minute Han-Greedo scene (VHS source), everything else is identical (35mm source). The new audio, like the old audio, is still a VHS capture, this time from a tape so old that other parts of it were completely unusable, but with this bit fortunately surviving.

So, getting rid of the muffling and general lo-fi sound during this scene was never really in the cards. However, I do feel that the new audio blends slightly better with the surrounding audio now (mostly EQ and noise floor differences), and is definitely better… just not as much better as I’d like it to be. Maybe we’ll get another 35mm reel with the Latino dub someday. Until then, this version may have to suffice.

Haarspalter said:

Darth Cracker said:

Seems every time there’s an anniversary we all get our hopes up and then… (insert Vader-esque “Nooooooooooo!!!” here)

We should create a [Crushed OUT Hopes Memorial Thread]. Imagine the discussions about the OUT in 60 years: “You know what, STAR WARS’ 100th anniversary is coming up. Oh well, since McDonalds bought Disney after the Third World War we should get our hopes high that we will finally get the OUT.”

Thread already exists:

http://originaltrilogy.com/topic/Star-wars-40th-anniversary/id/51223/page/2

I still have dubs on the 50th, 100th is still available.

Revolution said:

Is there even a true source of the 70mm 6 channel audio?

We have an in-theatre recording, but those aren’t really good enough to turn into a real soundtrack. They make fine references though.

Err, and here’s my “wrong movie” original answer (about Star Wars, not Empire):

The track we have now is assembled from “true enough” sources for my tastes. As hairy_hen said earlier, the 70mm mix was based on a four-channel master, which can mostly be gotten back to via the 35mm matrixed stereo. Then, we have an in-theatre recording of the 70mm audio which allows us to know the timing and relative volume of the differences from the 35mm version, minus the channel info. And we have SE audio which contains these differences, which can be mixed in at the appropriate places, to achieve a pretty accurate reconstruction of at least the four main channels of the 70mm mix. I’m not sure how h_h handled the LFE audio, but that may have involved a little more guesswork, adjusting and modifying the equivalent SE channels to create something more faithful to the original.

hairy_hen said:

The 8mm version, contrary to what was stated earlier, is not at all the same as the 70mm. While it does use a number of the early visual composites created for the 70 which were replaced in the 35, the audio track is entirely separate, and its numerous differences in ADR are not present in the 70mm mix.

Good to know. I assumed if we were seeing 70mm visual differences, the audio differences would have to be from 70mm as well. I guess that’s what I get for assuming 😉

Faithwyn said:

Edit: Had to add this! I just watched a bit of ROTJ with the ‘Tamil’ Dub,
only the “Vader arrives” part. Damn, they got a creepy guy to do Vaders
voice! I thought the lip syncing by the Commander looked real good too!

If you’re already watching with the Tamil dub, go ahead and watch a bit more. It is by far the weirdest dub I’ve found. In particular, the “heavy breathing” by any character who’s onscreen not saying anything, and the fact that some of the Ewok lines are dubbed… either in Tamil or in a nonsense language by Tamil voice actors, I can’t tell which. Also watch Empire for snatches of English phrases spoken by the Tamil speakers, such as Luke telling R2 to shut up, or Han telling Luke “I hate you” after Leia kisses Luke. Seriously, it’s wild. I wish we had the whole thing.

Okay I’ve given up (for now) on getting improved sources for the Turkish dubs, so I’m uploading them in their current state now. Links will be posted at the usual places within a few days.

Similar to the situation with the Hindi dubs, I was working with audio that had already been edited. However, the quality of the editing was much better this time, and I was able to get complete dubs for both Star Wars and Jedi. Empire, however, still has the Emperor scene in English, presumably because the Turkish dub originally went with the 1997SE, but had been edited in my sources to go with the 2011SE, and the editors couldn’t make it fit. (actually, I found a version that did translate some of those lines into Turkish, but the quality was poor, and it was still incomplete, so I didn’t incorporate that audio)

The next version of Project Threepio will include Turkish “titles” subs, which subtitle only the parts not translated by the dub–just the crawls in this case, plus the Emperor scene.

Thanks to ccfilms for helping me shop around for sources, and putting out an appeal for the missing audio on a Turkish-language Star Wars fan site.

Possessed said:

I think the 1997 mix is the best for the original star wars though. It sounds really good.

Agreed. SE changes aside, the 97 mixes were very good. They didn’t start really mucking things up in general until 2004. Same with the colors.

Possessed said:

So wait does the stereo theatrical mix from the laserdisc actually sound better than the blu rays (content aside) or are people just being dramatic? Legitimate question because I’m working on my own personal custom mux of the film.

Better is subjective, but IMO it sounds a lot better. But people care about different things: the Blu is often (but not always) better in things like clarity and noise, but in every other respect, mixing levels, EQ, etc, it’s a lot worse.

Moth3r said:

What are the minor differences between the 35mm and the 70mm audio? I seem to remember something about a missing effect during the snowspeeder crash.

Am I correct in thinking that the list of audio differences in the wikipedia article is incorrect and actually represents differences between the theatrical and SE mix?

I wouldn’t classify them as minor myself–yes, effects and mixing are very similar, but there’s different dialogue in a number of places. The most jarring one being what the Cloud City escort says to Han, but there’s also a few extra C-3PO lines (not the same as the 16mm ones). I think that’s also where some of the SE alternate takes come from (“get the shelter built” vs. “get the shelter up”, etc). It’s really worth downloading and watching the Puggo Edition 8mm digest (which is based on a 70mm reduction), even though it’s not the complete film. It’s really odd to hear (and see) the changes. And in one case, Leia’s line in the 35mm mix didn’t line up with her lip movements, but her alternate line in the 70mm mix does (the “I know where Luke is” scene)!

EDIT: Also, the missing snowspeeder crash was a problem with the 93 mix. Since hairy_hen derived his 1980 5.1 mix from the 1993 mix, he took the snowspeeder crash from another source.

To do DTS-MA, you need the DTS Encoder Suite, commercial software. That’s part of why WAV files/PCM audio is so popular for lossless stereo tracks.

EDIT: Whoops, missed the whole last page…

Revolution said:

CatBus said:

yaboykevin01 said:

What is the difference between the 5.1 1980 mix and the 2.0 1980 mix? Are there any content differences, or are they just mixed through more channels?

Also, does the 16mm mono track differ from those two in any way?

IIRC, the 5.1 1980 mix is just the matrixed stereo upmixed to 5.1, with some of the LFE channel from other sources like the Blu-rays where they still seem decent. In other words, it’s a nice, tasteful upmix of the stereo mix. Unlike Star Wars, it is NOT an attempt to reproduce the original six-channel mix. And unlike Jedi, we know that there are content differences from the six-channel mix, but the six-channel mix didn’t apply to this cut of the film. So no content differences, just more channels, technically not theatrical but not actively revisionist in any way.

The 16mm track is way different. C-3PO gets some different lines (ones that later showed up in the Special Editions), and the mixing is occasionally a bit different too.

So in other words the 5.1 is just stereo? It does sound amazing but just interested as i thought it was a pure 5.1 source. Is there any interest in obtaining a true 5.1 source or using the 6.1 source from the blu rays etc?

• Rev

No, it’s an upmix of matrixed stereo, not plain stereo, which gives you 4 distinct channels. Mix in the LFE and it’s true 4.1, upmixed to 5.1. The channels aren’t as distinct as a modern discrete mix but they’re distinct enough. However, it is just the stereo mix, i.e. sound effects and dialogue specific to the stereo mix. No content from the original mono or six-channel mixes.

The point of the 1980 six-channel mix is to be authentic yet multichannel. You could certainly get more channels from the Blu-ray, but you’d lose everything else–quality, authenticity, etc. 4.1/5.1 is about as good as you can expect in this regards when the cadillac best-of-breed audio in 1980 was 4.2. The only thing theoretically better would be a preservation of the 70mm version of the video with accompanying six-channel audio, but that’s unlikely–and frankly I don’t like the 70mm cut as well, so what we have now is still better, IMO.

alexp120 said:

It is possible to insert 6.1 sound from the Blu Ray to the Despecialized edition, however the Blu Ray is the special edition cut with added shots not seen in the Despecialized edition.

Also the audio quality on the Blu-rays is fairly tragic, so if you can find a nice, alternative lossless source (which we have), you’ll end up with considerably better results than anything using the Blu-rays as a significant source. You’re not going to improve anything by pulling in audio from an inferior source, regardless of the nominal channels.