RogueLeader said:
I think this is definitely along the right line.
This isn’t an issue with you’re writing, just the story in general, but I’m curious about something. What is Kylo thinking Palpatine’s endgame is? Okay, so Palpatine wants Kylo kill Rey for whatever reason. Okay, let’s say he does, but then what? Kylo gets the fleet, but then what happens to Palpatine? He’s just gonna chill out on Exegol while Kylo rules the galaxy with his fleet that he’s spent the last three decades building? I mean, Kylo asks him “What could you give me?” but he doesn’t even bother to ask him, “What’s in it for you?”
Lemme first just say how legit insightful and extremely useful everything you’ve written is, and it’s very helpful to me going forward.
Like the movie, the novel doesn’t really answer this question; it just avoids it. I personally hadn’t really got a specific answer either, so I was intending to simply leave it avoided, but I think it would be a waste not to address it meaningfully.
That’s something I liked about JediPaxis’ early TROS leaks. Supposedly in an earlier version of the film, Palpatine told Kylo that he was dying for good, and he wanted Kylo (and Rey) to be his successors:
According to the leak:
After obtaining Vader’s device Kylo travels to the place specified by the wayfinder. It takes him to the Unknown Regions and a dead planet of flat, black rock. I previously reported that the planet where Kylo finds Vader’s wayfinder was called Exogol. Since then my understanding has evolved and I’ve been told that this planet actually bears that name. Kylo lands outside a giant cube, floating just above the ground and begins walking toward it. Kylo walks between the cube and the ground and once he reaches the center he discovers an elevator leading down below the planet’s surface. He follows teh lift down and finds an old man, near death and lying in bed and being tended to by cloaked aids. My source believes these aids to be referred to as Sith Loyalists. The old man identifies himself as Darth Sideous. Kylo initially dismisses the old man, knowing that the Emperor had died over 30 years prior over the forest moon of Endor. Feeling that this must be a trick, Kylo claims that there must be some other explanation, such as this man being a clone. My sources specifically tell me that the Palpatine refutes the idea of him being a clone and affirms that he survived his fall. After his defeat at Endor, he left the known galaxy and traveled to the Unknown Regions to rebuild his Empire. Despite his skepticism, Palpatine begins to reel Kylo in and subsequently tells him of something known as a “Force Dyad”. The Force produces two incredibly strong users and when they unite together, both become stronger than either one could be on their own. Palpatine believes Kylo Ren and Rey to be the two halves of this dyad and shares this knowledge with Rey. (Note: I previously wrote that Palpatine wanted them to become “master and apprentice” since then this has been clarified to me as Palpatine seeking the two members of the Dyad) Palpatine claims that he seeks the Dyad because he is weak and dying and he wants the Dyad to rule together once he’s gone. Palpatine orders Kylo to bring Rey to him and turn her so that the Dyad will be a strong, unified force of darkness. Palpatine also reveals that he has been amassing an armada of Star Destroyers equipped with Death Star tech, each one capable of destroying a planet on its own. Generals Hux and Pryde are tasked with rounding up children in large numbers to train and staff his armada.
In this apparent earlier cut, Palpatine’s trick was very similar to what you’re proposing. Once Rey and Kylo are both there, he reveals that he didn’t want them to succeed him, and instead uses their Dyad bond to rejuvenate himself. So, like your version, Palpatine knew of the Dyad from the beginning, and it was always his plan to take their life Force.
I avoided all leaks before I saw the film, and once I’d seen it, it never occurred to me to go back and read any of them. So that’s new information to me, and really interesting that by trying to unpick the tangle I wound up back at that same earlier point. That’s gotta be a good sign! Is it worth me seeking the leaks out and reading them, like the DOTF screenplay, do you reckon?
Seeing Ben arrive pleases Sideous. He then uses his power to bond them together and begins to syphon power from that bond and direct it into himself. As the power flows into him, the once silky and decrepit Palpatine stands tall and strong once again, restoring himself to a much younger, healthier state.
I think you run into some logical issues with the way it is now. I mean, what is stopping Kylo from just killing Palpatine and taking the fleet from him? It’s not like his cult could really oppose him. And if they could, why would Palpatine even need Kylo to kill Rey? If you don’t mind, I would like to suggest some different options.
I never really worried about this issue specifically; I mean, just killing Palpatine wouldn’t automatically transfer control of the Sith Eternal to Kylo - I figure it’s like how John Wilkes Booth didn’t become the President of the United States.
First, I think either Palpatine or the Oracle should tell Kylo about the Dyad. As the story is right now, Kylo brings up the Dyad out of nowhere halfway through the movie. This is important information that I believe should be revealed earlier in the movie. And I think the Oracle would be the perfect person to reveal this info to Kylo. He is called an “oracle” after all, and this is apparently concerning another prophecy. Kylo would think he knows something that Palpatine doesn’t, but then Palpatine could even later reveal that the Oracle was a part of the plan. He wanted Kylo to think he had the upper hand.
I personally prefer the Dyad to be part of the big reveal at the nadir of Rey’s arc; Kylo knowing something about her that she doesn’t is important, I think, especially something that connects the two of them. It gives her a more personal reason to believe maybe she’ll join him, and it also means the two options Kylo presents for her are “you turn to the Dark Side and become more evil than Palpatine, or, you turn to the Dark Side but you do it with me, someone who you already have a personal connection with,” which makes his preferred choice a lot more palatable to her. I think it should also be a reveal to the reader, since we’ve already seen all the evidence of the two being uniquely connected (Force Skyping etc), and now we finally get an explanation which we didn’t expect but makes sense in retrospect.
I definitely agree about Kylo thinking he knows something Palpatine doesn’t, because Palpatine wanted Kylo to think he had the upper hand. The way the text of the book is written is actually really conducive to this - we follow characters from their points of view and get their thoughts and opinions on things, but we don’t always get the context of what they’re thinking. For example, we know Hux is plotting something treasonous because he thinks about the pieces of his plan falling into place as it’s happening, but it’s still kept a mystery to the reader what his plan actually is, without ever feeling like the text is intentionally dancing around something. Kylo is the same way when we’re following him. It’s a strength of how Rae Carson wrote it, so I can’t take credit for it.
On the other hand, if Palpatine wants Rey dead, I think Palpatine should stress to Kylo that he is dying and wants Kylo to be his successor, because he has watched Kylo from the beginning and is everything he hoped he would be. But to prove to Palpatine that he really has become what Vader could not, he must kill Rey before him. She is a threat to his rule… but not in the way he thinks… Then the twist could be, like you said, she’s not going to destroy the Sith, she will become one. Maybe Kylo could say that she will even kill him in order to take the throne. Then when she almost kills Kylo on the Death Star, it freaks her out because it means the vision might be becoming true.
I actually think there is merit in the idea of Palpatine wanting Kylo to just bring Rey to him, too, and not to kill her. First of all, since Snoke wanted Rey dead and that got him killed, I feel like it would make sense that Palpatine would try a different approach. Maybe you could go with the early TROS idea, where he wants them to begin a new Sith dynasty to take his place, but Kylo will need Palpatine’s help to turn her, since he failed to do so himself in TLJ. But that is pretty similar to the set up of the showdown in ROTJ…
But here is an alternate set up. When they first meet, instead of Palpatine repeating the “The dark side is a pathway to many abilities…” line, they could have this interaction.
Kylo: You’ll die first.
Palpatine: I have died before. Kill me, and my spirit will pass into you, as all the Sith live in me.
This gives Kylo a clear reason why he simply can’t kill Palpatine right now. And then, Palpatine could offer Kylo what he really wants.
Kylo: What could you give me?
Palpatine: Everything. A new Empire. The might of the Final Order will soon be ready. Become what your grandfather Vader could not. You shall rule all the galaxy as the new Emperor… and Empress. She will be yours, if you do as I ask…
Kylo lowers his saber, and Palpatine gives a menacing smile.
This leaves us with a little mystery. What does Palpatine want Kylo to do? Then, in the hangar scene, Kylo could reveal that if she strikes Palpatine down in anger, he will possess her and become the new vessel for the Sith. This is when Kylo tries to offer her an alternative. They’re a Dyad in the Force, and together they can use their powers to find another way to destroy Palpatine for good. I think this would create an interesting and shocking dilemma for Rey. She wants to kill Palpatine, but now if she tries to, she might become seduced by the dark side and become the next Sith. At this point she knows she has darkness in her, so she doesn’t know if she will be strong enough to resist the power of the dark side. And this would be even more of a reason why she would go into exile rather than face Palpatine. And I think it makes Rey appear even braver when she chooses to face Palpatine knowing that he could possess her. She doesn’t know if her willpower is strong enough to resist it. I also think it makes Kylo a little sympathetic, because going against Palpatine’s plan shows he cares about who Rey is as a person, and he doesn’t just want her as a possession by any means necessary.
I think this would work well for Palpatine’s Dyad plan too, because Kylo would think he knows Palpatine’s plan (to possess Rey), but in reality Palpatine knew all along about their bond, and wanted to exploit it. Maybe this would make things complicated, but I think it leaves less logical gaps, and it makes each character appear smarter than they currently do in the film.
I want to avoid the stuff about killing him = he can possess you, since I don’t really see the logical connection between the two things. It’s something I found distracting when I watched the movie for the first time - it feels like a pair of unconnected events.
That said, I really like the shape of everything you’ve described, and also, I idea of Rey going into the final confrontation not sure if she has the willpower to resist Palpatine in that way. I agree that your version also makes everyone much cannier than they are in the extant version of the story, which I like. I feel like we’re both reaching for the same thing but with slightly different preferences of how it gets there along the way.
Anyway, some food for thought. Sorry for rambling.
It really is food for thought. I feel like I’ve sounded somewhat negative in my responses but that isn’t intentional! I mean it when I say that I really like everything you’ve said, and how useful it is. They’re all clever ideas and it makes me very enthused to keep tinkering with this whole thing. I can tell you right now I’m definitely going to use some of what you’ve suggested.