Which one do you like more? The Prequels or the Sequels? And why? — Page 4

Again I hate Attack of the Clones, and the sequels are better in a lot of technical ways, but saying that that means the sequels overall are better is just crazy. I think people here 1. just wanted to see X Wings and TIE fighters again, and/or 2. are just being contrarian like Sparky said.

For all their faults, the prequels actually go somewhere. They have a clear end point where things have changed drastically and there’s a purpose to it all. You have the Clone Wars, Order 66, Palpatine’s rise, Vader’s creation, etc. You can say that that all comes from the original trilogy’s backstory, and that’s true, but it still had to be executed with some artistry and vision.

The sequels are in an even worse position in that way, because they inherit what should be a completely new status quo after the original trilogy, and then reverse back to repeating everything from the original trilogy again. And no, it’s not just The Force Awakens remaking Star Wars 1977 or Rise of Skywalker having Palpatine again. It’s full of rehashes. The Last Jedi repeats Hoth, repeats Yoda, and repeats the Emperor’s throne room before TROS repeats it AGAIN. The whole setup is designed to keep everything rebels vs. stormtroopers, X Wings vs. TIE fighters forever with no changes. The end status quo is exactly the same as it is immediately after the original trilogy, except with Rey being in charge of the Jedi instead of Luke.

The prequels were all about new ideas and new designs, for better or worse. Some of the ideas and designs were awful, but some of them were great. The same cannot be said for the sequels. All of the good designs are variations on what was already done in the OT. The aliens, props, ships, character designs are all forgettable other than maybe Kylo’s crossguard lightsaber.

I appreciate the practical effects where they appear, but the amount that that actually happens is overstated, and the amount of practical effects, particularly models and miniatures, that appear in the prequels is understated. The sequels are still full of CG, especially where ships or vehicles are involved. With the exception of Jar Jar, the gungans, and a handful of aliens, Phantom Menace feels just as tactile and real as the OT.

For idiotic nonsense plots, they’re roughly even. The political situation is just as confused and unexplained (within the movies themselves, not ancillary material.) The map to Luke doesn’t make sense, the Canto Bight fuel subplot doesn’t make sense, Holdo withholding information doesn’t make sense, absolutely nothing in TROS makes sense. There’s just as much childish drivel in TLJ (and arguably TROS) as there is in any of the three prequels, particularly in the Canto Bight scenes. It starts with a yo momma joke.

oojason said:

Get out of my mind! 😉 👍
 

I didn’t see suited Vader hunting down and killing Jedi in the prequel like I pictured as a kid. Or the Clone Wars so I didn’t get what I wanted.

Mandalorian army, and Jedi Clones is what I pictured.

Somehow, I imagined a completely different prequel movie in my head reading the Return of the Jedi novelization. The slow seduction to evil. Anakin being a good man and all the things Ben said he was before his fall.

Even the way Anakin was named Darth Vader was more lame in actuality than what we imagined.

And why did The Emperor have to be a Darth. Why Have a lightsaber at all.

Why did Yoda need a lightsaber. There are so many things I would change. But Its not my movie.

Why a trade federation? Why Space Taxes. Why Anakin as a virgin birth. Midichlorians et al.

I’ll give Force Awakens a bit of leeway for trying to bring back that Star Wars flavor the prequels lacked. But as Mark Hamill you can never go home again and the band isn’t getting back together.

But for a moment it was Star Wars again, you had Luke’s lightsaber and you had the Millennium Falcon and you had Chewie and Han. You had that swashbuckling flavor of the OT. The prequel did not have. And then it was all gone with the Last Jedi going in a different direction. A subverted Empire Strikes Back as it were or a reverse Empire Strikes Back. Without a lightsaber duel. The throne room battle was horrendously bad. Luke didn’t even train Rey.

You had Luke astral projecting himself and looking like an Epic myth. You had one or two nice scenes with Leia and Luke, and one with Artoo, another with Yoda. There are moments of things I like in the first two sequels but they are all nostalgic appeal. The third one fails on everything. I felt nothing, In fact I was insulted by Luke’s cameo in that. He lifts the X-wing, A Jedi weapon deserves more respect. I was a coward, I was afraid.

The unnecessary course correcting that fixed nothing and was actually worse than the last jedi.

Both of these trilogies failed in so many ways. To recapture Star Wars. They are rewarding for those who genuinely enjoy them, but I feel like they are a chore to watch.

JadedSkywalker said:

Why a trade federation? Why Space Taxes.

Space taxes is barely even a focus in the TPM. Trade Federation are only the villainous focus for that one movie.

But for a moment it was Star Wars again, you had Luke’s lightsaber and you had the Millennium Falcon and you had Chewie and Han.

Is this Star Wars? I’d disagree, more seeing it as aspects within a Star Wars trilogy.

The dialogue in the prequel is so bad. I hate sand. Its course and rough and irritating. And the speech in episode III so Its love that has blinded you.

No one talks that way and the line delivery.

I also had forgotten just how bad Ian’s lines were in Episode II.

To be honest I did a rewatch of I, and I’m kind of dreading watching II and III. After watching a video about Hayden’s bad delivery 0f wooden dialogue.

Watching the movies with George’s commentary is fun too. Its designed to be that way like a 1930s serial. funny.

The sequel has all of its great dialogue and I mean that in jest in the Rise of Palpatine. They fly now, Somehow Palpatine returned.

Visually the sequels look better than the prequel. Especially the ones shot on 35mm, except for The Phantom Menace which Lucas did shoot on film.

I like the OT lightsaber duels especially Bespin over the other two trilogies. Though I don’t mind Return of the Jedi and the Force Awakens duels. Duel of the Fates is okay I guess. Anakin and Dooku as well. Not a fan of Yoda fighting in II. And Episode III is lackluster too much twirling. Just because Spielberg directed the previz does not make it good.

The entire thing looks cgi even knowing some of the elements were shot separately as real special effects plates like the lava. Though it feels so fake. Too many lens flares too much busyness in the frame.

The duel of Yoda and Sidious is very cartoonish when they start throwing around those senator pods.

I wanted the Anakin and Obi-Wan duel to feel more personal and to be less about the background setting or special effects.

Dagenspear said:

JadedSkywalker said:

Why a trade federation? Why Space Taxes.

Space taxes is barely even a focus in the TPM. Trade Federation are only the villainous focus for that one movie.

But for a moment it was Star Wars again, you had Luke’s lightsaber and you had the Millennium Falcon and you had Chewie and Han.

Is this Star Wars? I’d disagree, more seeing it as aspects within a Star Wars trilogy.

It’s not a focus but it is considered an important enough piece of context to put in the opening crawl. Which puts it on the same tier as something like the Death Star plans or Vader’s search for Luke. It’s also brought up as the motivation for the Trade Federation to do what they do.

It isn’t “a” Star Wars trilogy, it’s THE Star Wars trilogy.

That’s a very interesting question and one that I’ve definitely juggled in my head.

I think overall though? I much prefer the Sequel Trilogy over the Prequels and this is gonna take some time to explain. To start with the baseline though? I don’t like TPM, can’t stand to sit through AOTC and only kind of like ROTS. Meanwhile, I love TFA, really enjoy TLJ and TROS I only start disliking when I think about it as being this climax to a nine-film saga though it didn’t start like this. Way back in the day, I loved the prequels, I was happy to get more Star Wars, remember fondly going to see ROTS in theaters when it came out. playing Battlefront I and II and loving playing as the Clones and so much more. Then at some point, I made it a tradition to rewatch all the movies in May and I’d always insist on chronological order and that’s where I started seeing the problems and as I’ve rewatched them time and time again? The problems keep making themselves more known. You know how people will say TCW essentially fixes the prequels? As a lover of that series, I can safely that series makes me even more frustrated with them. Now to be clear, I don’t hate any of these movies, I think these days I can’t bring myself to hate anything Star Wars and I have to say, I do appreciate these in a way as being George Lucas being completely unfiltered and able to just make the movies he wants to make, especially in these current times where one becomes so familiar with hearing how executives and shareholders keep getting in the way of the creatives. Also, as everybody has said about the prequels, the basic ideas and concepts presented here are great. The idea of exploring the Clone Wars and seeing Anakin and Obi-Wan’s friendship before it crumbles is cool. I also do appreciate in retrospect the idea of presenting a bit of a slowburn where we see Palpatine manipulating a war to weasel his way into power since that’s genuinely interesting, the idea of having each villain kind of in a way being an aspect of Darth Vader with Grievous being the culmination is fantastic.

That being said, oh my lord do I not enjoy watching them and I think it’s from watching fanedits like Hal9000’s takes that I really have zeroed in on what it is I don’t like.

The prequels are an exercise in excess and bloat. Star Wars traditionally runs about 2 hours and yet the originals and the new films never feel like they go on for that long. The prequels however you feel EVERY minute that passes. TPM and AOTC hit points for me where I catch myself nearly dozing off during some scenes it can be that hard to sit through. So many scenes feel like they’re just there and in part, it’s because unfortunately for all the guff people give the sequels for not being planned? The prequels kind of went through the same deal. The Droid Factory scene was famously just thrown in because George thought it up on a car ride, Anakin’s fall in Episode III feels very shaky because clearly Lucas didn’t want to commit to really showing Anakin as the dark bad guy and really wanted to show that he could still turn back, the whole Sifo-Dyas thing being because of a typo when the original “Sido-Dyas” idea was genuinely much simpler and much better and you feel it as you watch it. In a lot of ways, the prequels feel kind of scattered in the focus and then you have just so much dialogue that is completely unnecessary while bits that should be present are removed such as for instance, the subplot in ROTS that’s supposed to show basically the beginnings of the Rebel Alliance which was cut and thus left Padmé with ZERO purpose in ROTS other than to give birth to Luke and Leia and die. Moving back to the dialogue, George has always said Star Wars is for 8-year olds and while I won’t deny that it has always been for kids? At times, it feels like the movies assume the kids watching are incredibly dumb and thus they need to restate many points or throw in lines and moments that just serve to pad out the movies or they’re completely baffling decisions like the very off-putting romance in AOTC which has Anakin admit to Padmé that he slaughtered innocent Tuskens but she’s seemingly not perturbed by that because the movies need us to feel bad for Anakin. Then there’s the VERY wooden acting and at points very sterile direction which results in these movies being very difficult to get invested in beyond when the funny meme lines show up and considering I can easily bring them up on YouTube along with the few bits I like? They lose all purpose. I just can’t with the prequels. I have tried many times but I really cannot.

As for the sequels? I think already we need to start with the rundown of the problems and other points. Yes, these things should’ve been planned out better. TROS should’ve been delayed, they should’ve dropped the May date as soon as possible, yes they should’ve done more to set up the state of the galaxy, there’s a lot of points to make about these films. However, nothing will change just how worried I was going into TFA, expecting I’d likely hate it… and then promptly going back to see it six more times afterward I loved it that much. These movies felt like life was just being injected back into my veins. TFA has ACTUAL emotion running the show with its actors. I got to hear performances with real life and character again, the writing at times wasn’t always the best but it felt more Star Wars but with some modernization with the bits it could be hokey being more in line with what I’d expect out of this franchise. The action was more intense and fun, finally gone was the overchoreographed light shows with flips and spins that at many points felt like they existed to waste time, we had fights where emotion and motivation was at the forefront. The mix of practical and CG was much better, using CG for elements that are absolutely necessary and reflect how far we’ve come since the days of the OT when we were fairly limited on what we could do because of the need to always have practical sets but at the same time, it’s not just abusing it because it can and really, it did its job well as a comfort film, a way of showing people Star Wars was in good hands and that we could get classic-feeling Star Wars again before getting something a bit more gritty in Rogue One and then TLJ.

And I’ll say it, I love TLJ. That love is tempered now after rewatches because I can see where them having to work toward a May date before delaying to December was a problem and where the movie could be tightened up in areas but I LOVE this movie. I’m glad it subverted expectations and went off in a bold direction, mostly because I liked the direction it was going. To me, Star Wars does not exist to be preserved in amber. If I want to relive my memories? I can rewatch the OT or play a video game or whatever. I want Star Wars to do new things. Part of why I could not get into the EU was that a lot of it felt like Star Wars by way of fanfic writers who cling too tightly to the OT. I was not wanting to see Legends Luke Skywalker. Granted, I also wasn’t expecting the Luke we got but I really grew invested in this take. I loved seeing this broken Luke who cut himself off from the Force, especially since really, there was no way to continue from where TFA left off in any other manner beyond something totally ridiculous like I guess he’s on permanent planet arrest but is free to be visited or he’s just a coward which the movie takes great pains to show he isn’t and really dig into why he’s there. The bit between him and Ben that people keep citing is chilling, hearkening back to the OT and how Luke was in some of his darkest moments there and also what we see of just his family line in general. It’s a movie that deconstructs Star Wars… but it also reconstructs it and does so in a manner that I think is thoughtful and at the very least, even if someone doesn’t like the movie? It’s refreshing to get a film that does challenge the audience as much as it does and it leaves the door open for genuinely intelligent spirited discussion which… we tragically didn’t get but still. Really, I stand by that it left us open for a very cool Episode IX if it followed up on the themes and ideas of TLJ and committed to them.

Then unfortunately, Carrie Fisher passed away, Iger seemingly was not about to delay IX anymore after Trevorrow really struggled following Fisher’s passing and with Kennedy’s recent comments in mind? We can also assume investors got concerned after the reaction to TLJ so we got TROS, a VERY frustrating movie. Now I did not say bad because truth be told? It’s not that bad. TROS is a thrill ride that I have fun with. It has plenty of elements of the previous sequels that I like and many bits I still enjoy and can quote. The problem is all down to the story decisions and how they basically tried to do the impossible task of pleasing everybody but ended up pleasing no one. I saw someone once put it that it’s like TLJ told the story of what followed TFA only for JJ to go “Okay, but I’d ALSO like to tell that story.” and the result is a mess. It’s the only one of these movies I can say feels like FANFICTION and even though I personally will say the Legends take on this idea was worse? It pains me to say that. But in some respect? I’ve gotta give it to TROS because not only is there plenty that I enjoy from it but also it was the movie that got me thinking about how NONE of the trilogy enders have exactly been fantastic. ROTJ is a damn fine movie… but once you think about how Lucas intended initially for there to be nine movies and this became the finale because of the reaction to ESB and him not wanting to be stuck making Star Wars for so long? The cracks show in how the movie rushes to the finish, clumsily recycles bits of ANH and throws in plotpoints that are unnecessary like Leia being Luke’s sister which unlike the twist in ESB which worked so well off what was in ANH it shocks people when they learn that it wasn’t planned initially, it DOES feel forced and like Lucas just hastily wanted to pay off the “There is another.” line when he could’ve just made Leia strong in the Force. ROTS was the first of the prequels to have some merit to it but honestly? I think it kind of tricks people. The opening scene is fantastic, the ending basically sets all the pieces in place for ANH and reminds you of the Star Wars you like… but everything else is still the nonsense I don’t care for from these movies so to have TROS still not stick the landing that well? Honestly, it makes me kind of chuckle.

I overall will gladly rewatch the sequels so many times over compared to the prequels. This is not me being contrarian or joking. I honestly derive FAR more enjoyment from the sequels. I love two films and like the third meanwhile I can’t say the same for the prequels.

AspiringCreator said:
And I’ll say it, I love TLJ. That love is tempered now after rewatches because I can see where them having to work toward a May date before delaying to December was a problem and where the movie could be tightened up in areas but I LOVE this movie. I’m glad it subverted expectations and went off in a bold direction, mostly because I liked the direction it was going. To me, Star Wars does not exist to be preserved in amber. If I want to relive my memories? I can rewatch the OT or play a video game or whatever. I want Star Wars to do new things. Part of why I could not get into the EU was that a lot of it felt like Star Wars by way of fanfic writers who cling too tightly to the OT. I was not wanting to see Legends Luke Skywalker. Granted, I also wasn’t expecting the Luke we got but I really grew invested in this take. I loved seeing this broken Luke who cut himself off from the Force, especially since really, there was no way to continue from where TFA left off in any other manner beyond something totally ridiculous like I guess he’s on permanent planet arrest but is free to be visited or he’s just a coward which the movie takes great pains to show he isn’t and really dig into why he’s there. The bit between him and Ben that people keep citing is chilling, hearkening back to the OT and how Luke was in some of his darkest moments there and also what we see of just his family line in general.

I’ve argued with all of this ad nauseam so I’ll just focus on this part. You could have easily continued where TFA left off with a little bit of creativity.
Maybe Luke is looking for answers for why his Jedi project fell apart, hence why he went looking for the first Jedi temple to get back to its original roots. This is the primary option hinted at in TFA, makes much more sense than “this is a great place to commit suicide.”
Maybe he went to find something to beat Snoke and didn’t want anyone to follow him because it was too dangerous.
Maybe he’s concerned about himself falling to the dark side and worried about the danger he poses to others.
Maybe there’s some mystery of the Force he needs to unlock but he can’t be disturbed or distracted, even by his friends and allies.
Maybe he has more students and he wants to teach them in a safe, isolated location where they won’t be found or brought into contact with the war.

The EU version of Luke was never completely identical to how he was at the end of ROTJ either. He did have his own moments of darkness, but it still reflected a clear character progression, rather than a pointless leap backwards that puts him in exactly the same situation as ANH Obi Wan or ESB Yoda but less useful.

This Luke became a sadsack loser who hates the Jedi thing was something Rian CHOSE to do because it reflects his worldview, it’s not something he was locked into unfairly. JJ changed the ending of TFA at his request.

Vladius said:

It’s not a focus but it is considered an important enough piece of context to put in the opening crawl. Which puts it on the same tier as something like the Death Star plans or Vader’s search for Luke. It’s also brought up as the motivation for the Trade Federation to do what they do.

It isn’t “a” Star Wars trilogy, it’s THE Star Wars trilogy.

But that doesn’t equate to TPM being about it or even what the trilogy is about, same with the trade federation not being what the trilogy is about.

There are three, so it’s what I refer to as a trilogy.

AspiringCreator said:

it’s because unfortunately for all the guff people give the sequels for not being planned? The prequels kind of went through the same deal.

How is that the same? One is a basic story with scenes changed and added and another is just no structure from movie to movie I think.

Anakin’s fall in Episode III feels very shaky because clearly Lucas didn’t want to commit to really showing Anakin as the dark bad guy

How do you think that, when the movie has him kill kids and choke his pregnant wife?

and really wanted to show that he could still turn back, the whole Sifo-Dyas thing being because of a typo when the original “Sido-Dyas” idea was genuinely much simpler and much better and you feel it as you watch it.

How does it make more sense for the Jedi to trust an army made by a random person they know nothing about?

we had fights where emotion and motivation was at the forefront.

How are ROTS’s fights not driven by motivation? Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon are motivated by duty I think in TPM. Padme is driven by care for her people. In AOTC’s, I think Anakin’s near always driven by emotion and motivation I think, similar in ROTS. I think Obi-Wan is always driven by a heroic sense and duty.

I’m glad it subverted expectations and went off in a bold direction, mostly because I liked the direction it was going. To me, Star Wars does not exist to be preserved in amber. If I want to relive my memories? I can rewatch the OT or play a video game or whatever. I want Star Wars to do new things.

Why do you like TLJ, if you wanted Star Wars to do new things? Because, as far as I think, TLJ is more of the same, a remix of TESB/ROTJ. An empire with a stormtrooper army led by a black clad dark sider and opposed by a small rebel group with a single heroic Jedi character. What’s the difference? Even the story itself falls back on all that by the end.

I loved seeing this broken Luke who cut himself off from the Force, especially since really, there was no way to continue from where TFA left off in any other manner beyond something totally ridiculous like I guess he’s on permanent planet arrest but is free to be visited or he’s just a coward which the movie takes great pains to show he isn’t and really dig into why he’s there.

How does it dig into it? And how is Luke not a coward, when he’s shown to purposefully hide from what he did and shirk responsibility for his actions, by, I think, pinning it on others?

The bit between him and Ben that people keep citing is chilling, hearkening back to the OT and how Luke was in some of his darkest moments there and also what we see of just his family line in general.

I don’t think Luke ever pulls a weapon out to murder anyone he cares about whose defenseless and has done not actions against him in the OT.

It’s a movie that deconstructs Star Wars… but it also reconstructs it and does so in a manner that I think is thoughtful and at the very least, even if someone doesn’t like the movie? It’s refreshing to get a film that does challenge the audience as much as it does and it leaves the door open for genuinely intelligent spirited discussion which… we tragically didn’t get but still.

How does it do these things?

ROTS was the first of the prequels to have some merit to it but honestly? I think it kind of tricks people. The opening scene is fantastic, the ending basically sets all the pieces in place for ANH and reminds you of the Star Wars you like… but everything else is still the nonsense I don’t care for from these movies so to have TROS still not stick the landing that well? Honestly, it makes me kind of chuckle.

How is everything else in ROTS nonsense?

AspiringCreator said:

That’s a very interesting question and one that I’ve definitely juggled in my head.

I think overall though? I much prefer the Sequel Trilogy over the Prequels and this is gonna take some time to explain. To start with the baseline though? I don’t like TPM, can’t stand to sit through AOTC and only kind of like ROTS. Meanwhile, I love TFA, really enjoy TLJ and TROS I only start disliking when I think about it as being this climax to a nine-film saga though it didn’t start like this. Way back in the day, I loved the prequels, I was happy to get more Star Wars, remember fondly going to see ROTS in theaters when it came out. playing Battlefront I and II and loving playing as the Clones and so much more. Then at some point, I made it a tradition to rewatch all the movies in May and I’d always insist on chronological order and that’s where I started seeing the problems and as I’ve rewatched them time and time again? The problems keep making themselves more known. You know how people will say TCW essentially fixes the prequels? As a lover of that series, I can safely that series makes me even more frustrated with them. Now to be clear, I don’t hate any of these movies, I think these days I can’t bring myself to hate anything Star Wars and I have to say, I do appreciate these in a way as being George Lucas being completely unfiltered and able to just make the movies he wants to make, especially in these current times where one becomes so familiar with hearing how executives and shareholders keep getting in the way of the creatives. Also, as everybody has said about the prequels, the basic ideas and concepts presented here are great. The idea of exploring the Clone Wars and seeing Anakin and Obi-Wan’s friendship before it crumbles is cool. I also do appreciate in retrospect the idea of presenting a bit of a slowburn where we see Palpatine manipulating a war to weasel his way into power since that’s genuinely interesting, the idea of having each villain kind of in a way being an aspect of Darth Vader with Grievous being the culmination is fantastic.

That being said, oh my lord do I not enjoy watching them and I think it’s from watching fanedits like Hal9000’s takes that I really have zeroed in on what it is I don’t like.

The prequels are an exercise in excess and bloat. Star Wars traditionally runs about 2 hours and yet the originals and the new films never feel like they go on for that long. The prequels however you feel EVERY minute that passes. TPM and AOTC hit points for me where I catch myself nearly dozing off during some scenes it can be that hard to sit through. So many scenes feel like they’re just there and in part, it’s because unfortunately for all the guff people give the sequels for not being planned? The prequels kind of went through the same deal. The Droid Factory scene was famously just thrown in because George thought it up on a car ride, Anakin’s fall in Episode III feels very shaky because clearly Lucas didn’t want to commit to really showing Anakin as the dark bad guy and really wanted to show that he could still turn back, the whole Sifo-Dyas thing being because of a typo when the original “Sido-Dyas” idea was genuinely much simpler and much better and you feel it as you watch it. In a lot of ways, the prequels feel kind of scattered in the focus and then you have just so much dialogue that is completely unnecessary while bits that should be present are removed such as for instance, the subplot in ROTS that’s supposed to show basically the beginnings of the Rebel Alliance which was cut and thus left Padmé with ZERO purpose in ROTS other than to give birth to Luke and Leia and die. Moving back to the dialogue, George has always said Star Wars is for 8-year olds and while I won’t deny that it has always been for kids? At times, it feels like the movies assume the kids watching are incredibly dumb and thus they need to restate many points or throw in lines and moments that just serve to pad out the movies or they’re completely baffling decisions like the very off-putting romance in AOTC which has Anakin admit to Padmé that he slaughtered innocent Tuskens but she’s seemingly not perturbed by that because the movies need us to feel bad for Anakin. Then there’s the VERY wooden acting and at points very sterile direction which results in these movies being very difficult to get invested in beyond when the funny meme lines show up and considering I can easily bring them up on YouTube along with the few bits I like? They lose all purpose. I just can’t with the prequels. I have tried many times but I really cannot.

As for the sequels? I think already we need to start with the rundown of the problems and other points. Yes, these things should’ve been planned out better. TROS should’ve been delayed, they should’ve dropped the May date as soon as possible, yes they should’ve done more to set up the state of the galaxy, there’s a lot of points to make about these films. However, nothing will change just how worried I was going into TFA, expecting I’d likely hate it… and then promptly going back to see it six more times afterward I loved it that much. These movies felt like life was just being injected back into my veins. TFA has ACTUAL emotion running the show with its actors. I got to hear performances with real life and character again, the writing at times wasn’t always the best but it felt more Star Wars but with some modernization with the bits it could be hokey being more in line with what I’d expect out of this franchise. The action was more intense and fun, finally gone was the overchoreographed light shows with flips and spins that at many points felt like they existed to waste time, we had fights where emotion and motivation was at the forefront. The mix of practical and CG was much better, using CG for elements that are absolutely necessary and reflect how far we’ve come since the days of the OT when we were fairly limited on what we could do because of the need to always have practical sets but at the same time, it’s not just abusing it because it can and really, it did its job well as a comfort film, a way of showing people Star Wars was in good hands and that we could get classic-feeling Star Wars again before getting something a bit more gritty in Rogue One and then TLJ.

And I’ll say it, I love TLJ. That love is tempered now after rewatches because I can see where them having to work toward a May date before delaying to December was a problem and where the movie could be tightened up in areas but I LOVE this movie. I’m glad it subverted expectations and went off in a bold direction, mostly because I liked the direction it was going. To me, Star Wars does not exist to be preserved in amber. If I want to relive my memories? I can rewatch the OT or play a video game or whatever. I want Star Wars to do new things. Part of why I could not get into the EU was that a lot of it felt like Star Wars by way of fanfic writers who cling too tightly to the OT. I was not wanting to see Legends Luke Skywalker. Granted, I also wasn’t expecting the Luke we got but I really grew invested in this take. I loved seeing this broken Luke who cut himself off from the Force, especially since really, there was no way to continue from where TFA left off in any other manner beyond something totally ridiculous like I guess he’s on permanent planet arrest but is free to be visited or he’s just a coward which the movie takes great pains to show he isn’t and really dig into why he’s there. The bit between him and Ben that people keep citing is chilling, hearkening back to the OT and how Luke was in some of his darkest moments there and also what we see of just his family line in general. It’s a movie that deconstructs Star Wars… but it also reconstructs it and does so in a manner that I think is thoughtful and at the very least, even if someone doesn’t like the movie? It’s refreshing to get a film that does challenge the audience as much as it does and it leaves the door open for genuinely intelligent spirited discussion which… we tragically didn’t get but still. Really, I stand by that it left us open for a very cool Episode IX if it followed up on the themes and ideas of TLJ and committed to them.

Then unfortunately, Carrie Fisher passed away, Iger seemingly was not about to delay IX anymore after Trevorrow really struggled following Fisher’s passing and with Kennedy’s recent comments in mind? We can also assume investors got concerned after the reaction to TLJ so we got TROS, a VERY frustrating movie. Now I did not say bad because truth be told? It’s not that bad. TROS is a thrill ride that I have fun with. It has plenty of elements of the previous sequels that I like and many bits I still enjoy and can quote. The problem is all down to the story decisions and how they basically tried to do the impossible task of pleasing everybody but ended up pleasing no one. I saw someone once put it that it’s like TLJ told the story of what followed TFA only for JJ to go “Okay, but I’d ALSO like to tell that story.” and the result is a mess. It’s the only one of these movies I can say feels like FANFICTION and even though I personally will say the Legends take on this idea was worse? It pains me to say that. But in some respect? I’ve gotta give it to TROS because not only is there plenty that I enjoy from it but also it was the movie that got me thinking about how NONE of the trilogy enders have exactly been fantastic. ROTJ is a damn fine movie… but once you think about how Lucas intended initially for there to be nine movies and this became the finale because of the reaction to ESB and him not wanting to be stuck making Star Wars for so long? The cracks show in how the movie rushes to the finish, clumsily recycles bits of ANH and throws in plotpoints that are unnecessary like Leia being Luke’s sister which unlike the twist in ESB which worked so well off what was in ANH it shocks people when they learn that it wasn’t planned initially, it DOES feel forced and like Lucas just hastily wanted to pay off the “There is another.” line when he could’ve just made Leia strong in the Force. ROTS was the first of the prequels to have some merit to it but honestly? I think it kind of tricks people. The opening scene is fantastic, the ending basically sets all the pieces in place for ANH and reminds you of the Star Wars you like… but everything else is still the nonsense I don’t care for from these movies so to have TROS still not stick the landing that well? Honestly, it makes me kind of chuckle.

I overall will gladly rewatch the sequels so many times over compared to the prequels. This is not me being contrarian or joking. I honestly derive FAR more enjoyment from the sequels. I love two films and like the third meanwhile I can’t say the same for the prequels.

The typo thing is a myth, it’s not true. A fan made the typo when transcribing the older draft, and people mistakenly assumed Lucas made it.

NFBisms said:

Nothing so fanatical or ideological as worldview, but an expression of taste and feelings re: genre and storytelling, sure. Every artist has something to say, absolutely, but it’s not so didactic or important. It’s a fingerprint, an instinct. The movie certainly never engages with the material critiques of the Jedi or the old Republic (that you are familiar with as they are your bug bears), or and then even the baseline fascism the Empire iconography is automatically bundled with. It’s not about the world, Johnson is talking genre. From Brick toying with the noir, Brothers Bloom to the con movie, Knives Out to the murder mystery. There is an alchemy there that works for people – I hesitate to use the buzzword of subversion, but that’s not just about ‘the opposite’, but how that interplays into a different, idiosyncratic thing. It’s an alchemy not contrarianism. And again, that’s just his creative voice. It’s not a lack of, but a different direction.

The Last Jedi works best in conversation, ironically, with the old Expanded Universe in that way. ‘What Is A Star War’ as genre is something that has the weight and expectations of 30+ years in novels, comics, games, etc. Not just the 6 (7) movies preceding it. It assumes the aforementioned Jedi critiques, so Luke doesn’t really have to get into it. Going further, it assumes one has had their fill of Luke Skywalker adventures, from Bimmisaari to Zonama Sekot. It’s not outrageous for him to pull off an old Fallanassi technique / some shit that Han’s ex Salla did once. Leia had training in the Force, of course she did! Maybe she didn’t have a red lightsaber, maybe Han never had that ex. It’s the nature of the new canon, but what’s important is that the old EU wasn’t literally erased. Star Wars didn’t end in 2005, and where TLJ fails as a middle part of a trilogy, it’s a pretty great Star Wars movie about Star Wars imo. It set the board for the franchise to evolve past its worst tendencies

Aesthetics and storytelling preferences are a part of worldview. Premodern, modernist, and postmodern storytelling are all different because they originate from different frames of mind. That touches art as much as it touches politics, religion, etc.

The original Star Wars comes from a boomer Californian living in a world that grew out of World War 2, with a standard Christian background mixed with a vague hippie spirituality by way of fascination with Asia (samurai movies, Buddhism) and Joseph Campbell, and an interest in science fiction serials. The people working on the project were similarly post-WW2 Americans and British. It stood out at the time as optimistic, in contrast to a lot of the 1970s pessimism and darker science fiction. John Williams’s score has its own musical influences with their own pedigree and specific historical context. Even choosing classical music for the score instead of rock, synth, etc. is an aesthetic choice with its own implications.

Regardless of who they are, for better or worse, someone making a movie in 2017 is going to have a different worldview. By definition it has to be thoroughly postmodern due to coming after “the end of history” and decades of hyper self-aware media saturation. That isn’t necessarily bad by itself, but it depends on what you do with it. This is where all the “deconstruction” and “subversion” talk comes in.

Abrams TFA is highly self-aware and consciously decides to be an imitation. This is where the criticism for it comes from. It’s a cargo cult movie. If we include all the stormtroopers and X Wings and the Millennium Falcon and Chewbacca, the planes will show up and shower us with goods. (It worked though.)

TLJ is also highly self-aware and consciously chooses to be anti-tradition, anti-identity, anti-individualism, and embraces subjective preferences and noble lies rather than objective truth. I don’t need to rehearse all the ways that that’s the case. You’ll need a paragraph of counter-explanation and cross-examination to try to wave away each example because the truth of it is obvious. Most people that like the movie like it because it consciously takes that worldview, they just don’t like that it sounds bad when you put it in those terms.

The Prequels. Without a doubt. They feel so much more alive and original than the “Sequels”. Sure, the slapstick is over the top in places and dialogue is a bit rusty, but then again Star Wars has a reputation for rusty dialogue. It’s part of the charm.

Well, I don’t really like the Prequels or the Sequels. The only bit of the Prequels that I enjoy is “Duel of the Fates” (the music and the duel). Besides that one scene, I don’t feel the need to ever watch the Prequels or Sequels ever again. But, since I do like that one scene, I guess I prefer the Prequels over the Sequels.

There are things I like, and things I don’t like, about both the prequels and sequels. ROTS is a top 3 SW movie for me, and the final scene with Anakin & Kenobi on the side of the high ground is probably my favorite scene across all SW movies, so I’ll go with the prequels.

Prequels are so much better than the sequels. Every time you rewatch episode 8 and 9, it gets worse bc of the more plot holes you find. 8 and 9 are so bad it ruins 7. At lest 1, 2 and 3 were all watchable

JadedSkywalker said:

Both were cinematic magic in terms of visuals, both suffered in their plotting and direction.

I appreciate the sequel for using practical sets, shooting on film. The art design, the cinematography and I think the acting is better. No not somehow Palpatine returned, or they fly now.

I also think the sequel has more likable people, no one in the prequel except for Qui-Gon was likable. Maybe Padme and young Ani in Phantom Menace.

So yes, I do put Rey, Finn, Poe ahead of Hayden Anakin in likability. And i would take Jake Skywalker everyday of the week over Hayden Vader.

I usually agree with most of your opinions but Anakin in Revenge of the Sith was more interesting to me than Rey, Finn, Poe. Finn really should have also been on the Jedi path. You didn’t think Kenobi was likeable ?

I sufficiently dislike the Rise of Skywalker. Or the Rise of Palpatine as I call it. You don’t have to convince me, It’s worse than Episode II Attack of the Clones, which I always thought was the worst one. I struggle to find something good to say about Hayden and that film. I like maybe one or two things.

I also did not like Rey being a Palpatine as the answer to the fans who called her a Mary Sue. She was more powerful than Luke for reasons, she is the heir of Sidious and wields his power and authority. Yet somehow chooses to be known as a Skywalker like Leia or Luke.

If its adopted or found family, its a little too late and unplanned for the third one. She could have started the trilogy as Luke’s kid or even the daughter of Han and Leia. If they always planned a bloodline answer.

I like the idea of Rey as a scavenger. Not a fan of the Finn who yells Rey and doesn’t lead a Stormtrooper rebellion or become a Jedi.

I have all these ideas for the characters they did not use. But he does become a General along with Poe, they become like the Han Solo and Lando of the new trilogy, but its not earned. I’m not going to argue they plotted these movies well, or that the characters motivations make sense or are the same between each feature because they are not.

The only thing I see consistency in in is JJ’s desire to make Kylo a wannabe Vader. Rian smashed that helmet to bits so he could be the new Supreme leader. He cut Space Gollum in half because fans idea Snoke was Plagueis was ridiculous, your Snoke Theory Sucks.

The films couldn’t even decide who the new Han was Poe or Finn. And it changed between movies. But it was obvious they wanted Rey to be the new Luke, I thought that was plain from episode 7 with the fake Tatooine Jakku. Like Anakin and Luke they wanted her to hail from a desert planet and have humble origins.

It was dumb she is better at being a Skywalker than Luke, knows how to pilot the Falcon better than Han. Its very fanfiction like. Its not a throw the movie in the trash issue for me, but it is annoying.

I can almost enjoy parts of the new movies if I see them as what if or Infinities. But If I have to see them a canonical extension from Return of the Jedi, No I cannot. I don’t try to fool myself into thinking these are the films Lucas would have made in the 1980’s if hadn’t stopped in 83, He had a divorce and went off to be a dad to his kids for 16 years before Phantom Menace came around.

I’m almost afraid what a post prequel sequel he would have made would have been. Too connected to Filoni nonsensical Clone Wars. Or deeply tied into a videogame and an unmade tv series. That Darth Maul videogame and Star Wars UnderWorld.

And what JJ did was remake Star Wars. to undo the damage of the prequel and he did his own damage. Star Wars like Lucasfilm itself is gone. Lucasarts is gone, the expanded universe was thrown in the trash.

I think its all a mess and As much as don’t like or admire Filoni, I wouldn’t want his job to have to right the ship, so to speak. To undo all the damage. I don’t think he will or its possible really.

JadedSkywalker said:

I sufficiently dislike the Rise of Skywalker. Or the Rise of Palpatine as I call it. You don’t have to convince me, It’s worse than Episode II Attack of the Clones, which I always thought was the worst one. I struggle to find something good to say about Hayden and that film. I like maybe one or two things.

I also did not like Rey being a Palpatine as the answer to the fans who called her a Mary Sue. She was more powerful than Luke for reasons, she is the heir of Sidious and wields his power and authority. Yet somehow chooses to be known as a Skywalker like Leia or Luke.

If its adopted or found family, its a little too late and unplanned for the third one. She could have started the trilogy as Luke’s kid or even the daughter of Han and Leia. If they always planned a bloodline answer.

I like the idea of Rey as a scavenger. Not a fan of the Finn who yells Rey and doesn’t lead a Stormtrooper rebellion or become a Jedi.

I have all these ideas for the characters they did not use. But he does become a General along with Poe, they become like the Han Solo and Lando of the new trilogy, but its not earned. I’m not going to argue they plotted these movies well, or that the characters motivations make sense or are the same between each feature because they are not.

The only thing I see consistency in in is JJ’s desire to make Kylo a wannabe Vader. Rian smashed that helmet to bits so he could be the new Supreme leader. He cut Space Gollum in half because fans idea Snoke was Plagueis was ridiculous, your Snoke Theory Sucks.

The films couldn’t even decide who the new Han was Poe or Finn. And it changed between movies. But it was obvious they wanted Rey to be the new Luke, I thought that was plain from episode 7 with the fake Tatooine Jakku. Like Anakin and Luke they wanted her to hail from a desert planet and have humble origins.

It was dumb she is better at being a Skywalker than Luke, knows how to pilot the Falcon better than Han. Its very fanfiction like. Its not a throw the movie in the trash issue for me, but it is annoying.

I can almost enjoy parts of the new movies if I see them as what if or Infinities. But If I have to see them a canonical extension from Return of the Jedi, No I cannot. I don’t try to fool myself into thinking these are the films Lucas would have made in the 1980’s if hadn’t stopped in 83, He had a divorce and went off to be a dad to his kids for 16 years before Phantom Menace came around.

I’m almost afraid what a post prequel sequel he would have made would have been. Too connected to Filoni nonsensical Clone Wars. Or deeply tied into a videogame and an unmade tv series. That Darth Maul videogame and Star Wars UnderWorld.

And what JJ did was remake Star Wars. to undo the damage of the prequel and he did his own damage. Star Wars like Lucasfilm itself is gone. Lucasarts is gone, the expanded universe was thrown in the trash.

What is your opinion of Star Wars Legacy? The comics with Cade Skywalker?

I think I read them once and enjoyed Legacy part I and I was not sure if I liked or hated Legacy II with the Han Solo descendant who isn’t force sensitive. I like the idea that Luke was successful and his order lasted over a hundred years unlike in Disney where it didn’t last in between 6 and 7.

There are things I did not like about New Jedi Order, Fate of the Jedi and Legacy of the Force. The big one Jacen Solo becoming Hayden Skywalker 2.0. Mara’s death. Anakin Solo dying in NJO. The books redoing the prequel story with Darth Caedus.

Though there was a bit of fan arguing over Boba Fett training Jaina to kill her brother. People hated the idea Luke went nuts and killed Lumiya. A lot the EU is to say imperfect by a long shot. I’d probably do a page one rewrite myself from Vision of the Future on if I was a novelist and in any way talented.
The Skywalker lineage continued.

Allana Solo Jacen Solo’s daughter, Ben Skywalker Luke and Mara’s son, Jaina Solo Leia and Han’s daughter all were there to make stories of if Sword of the Jedi and the future stories were written.

They shipped them off to legends and made no more content. Crucible was the end of the line for the big three in a major way.

JadedSkywalker said:

I think I read them once and enjoyed Legacy part I and I was not sure if I liked or hated Legacy II with the Han Solo descendant who isn’t force sensitive. I like the idea that Luke was successful and his order lasted over a hundred years unlike in Disney where it didn’t last in between 6 and 7.

There are things I did not like about New Jedi Order, Fate of the Jedi and Legacy of the Force. The big one Jacen Solo becoming Hayden Skywalker 2.0. Mara’s death. Anakin Solo dying in NJO. The books redoing the prequel story with Darth Caedus.

Though there was a bit of fan arguing over Boba Fett training Jaina to kill her brother. People hated the idea Luke went nuts and killed Lumiya. A lot the EU is to say imperfect by a long shot. I’d probably do a page one rewrite myself from Vision of the Future on if I was a novelist and in any way talented.
The Skywalker lineage continued.

Allana Solo Jacen Solo’s daughter, Ben Skywalker Luke and Mara’s son, Jaina Solo Leia and Han’s daughter all were there to make stories of if Sword of the Jedi and the future stories were written.

They shipped them off to legends and made no more content. Crucible was the end of the line for the big three in a major way.

I agree. All the “sequels” have issues. My favorite is Legacy I with Darth Krayt and Talon and then the core New Jedi Order books. Legacy of the Force was entertaining but trash in the end, very similar to the Sequel trilogy. I totally disagree with the way Jaina killed her brother like “Die!!!” Not Jedi like at all. Say what you want about TLJ but the way Luke “defeated” Kylo is one of the most Jedi-like things in the entire series. He defeated him spiritually with non violence. I know you are familiar with Tales of the Jedi, what about Dawn of the Jedi comics? I have been marathoning Dawn of the Jedi with Tales and I think they tie in together nicely making a very rich history for star wars despite the artwork being vastly different. And the irony is Lucas had absolutely nothing to do with them and they are excellent.

Jan Duursema did those all well Dawn of the Jedi I do remember the third book amongst other books squeezed in before Disney and Dark Horse comics license ran out.

I saw recently something where the company purchased to be stripped and they fired Mike Richardson. I’m a Dark Horse comics person I have tons of trade editions and comics. I collected all the Star Wars and Indiana Jones books.

And there are several volumes of Dark Horse Manga I have to pick up before the inevitable happens. What happens when a company ceases to publish or exist like things from another world, or even diamond comics distributors.

I’ve been buying Dark Horse since 91 or 92. Its a shame. I don’t care all that much for the rebranded Star Wars under Disney Marvel with few exceptions. All that living lightsaber crystals like mood rings, the ones they bleed. Kyber I guess they call them.