The Rise of Skywalker: Ascendant (Released) — Page 354

Neerb, we’re never going to agree on this topic. If you want to keep talking about it you can DM me but this isn’t the right forum for it.

I would respond to what you just said, but it would kind of be a waste of time for both of us.

I wouldn’t want to gut such a pivotal moment in TLJ. The scene would barely make sense without that revelation, it’s such a key moment that shows how unprepared Rey was to face Snoke, and that things aren’t going to go the way she thinks. And even if you remove the line the rest of Snoke’s dialogue still implies he knows exactly what’s going on, so it doesn’t really help TRoS’s case, if anything it heightens the question of whether Snoke knew of the dyad.

It’s clearly shown Snoke is extremely powerful in TLJ, he mops the floor with Rey and effortlessly probes her mind. There’s no need to ‘explain’ how he can do it without dying. The effort would kill Rey, it wouldn’t kill Snoke. And as I said, bridging minds and Force projection seem like two completely different powers. Kylo’s “the effort would kill you” simply foreshadows that extreme uses of the Force drain your life energy. Snoke was probably more powerful than Luke, but even if not it’s easy to assume Force projection might take a higher strain than a bridge of minds.

The dyad is barely explained, Kylo describes it as “two that are one”, and Palpy says it’s “the life force of your bond” and “a power like life itself”. So TRoS doesn’t even directly state that being a ‘dyad’ means having force Skype calls and teleporting objects. Kylo says the power of their dyad will allow them to kill Palpatine and take the throne, which wouldn’t make sense if all there is to it is the mind connection stuff.

I could most definitely keep the conversation up with you too Burbin, but at this point we’re talking about my own personal fan edit that I haven’t shared with anyone. Unless you are meaning to talk to Hal about his opinion on it? In which case carry on I suppose, because this is his forum post.

It just feels like a waste of time for me to respond to all of your arguments because I already know I disagree with most of them, so therefore the only reason for me to respond would be to convince you to agree with me. But I already know that is extremely unlikely.

I’m just going to say this; please be aware that though this is a fanedit, there is more diversity of thought on the opinions of how TFA, TLJ, and TROS can fit together than many of you here are aware. I’ve spent years dabbling in Star Wars fiction, both the stuff considered good and bad. My own edits reflect a specific intent to show as wide of a view into the universe as possible, preserving it so as to let people make up their own minds as to what is true and what isn’t. Removing content is something I scarcely do, by choice, because I believe that there should be room for fans to interpret, and there are many ways to interpret certain lines beyond a simple literal read. Speculating on those details is what fans have done for years, and debating on their meanings often ends up giving rise to new ideas later. Removing those ideas robs fans of the chance to expand on those details into something greater. A single line can often be an entire story of its own to tell at a later date, one that can end up being far more satisfying than the original read. This isn’t a bad thing; it’s part of what makes the Star Wars universe so rich. Some wonderful stories from very talented authors come out of these wacky “retcons” or teases.

I’ve only removed one single conversation from my film edits so far, by choice, because I simply felt the performance on that scene detracted and took viewers out of the moment. I don’t like doing this, and I’ve even had a hadful of people ask me to reverse these decisions. I’m sticking to my guns, but I can understand their arguments. Even the worst lines for me may hold value to many fans that I wasn’t previously aware of, even if they are a canon contradiction, or just poorly written/phrased. Hence the whole “prequel memes” phenomena.

What Hal is doing here with this film is very different from my own approach, and that’s okay. He does remove things, tweaks pacing, and tries to do so in a logical and sensible fashion. And he does a good job too, especially with this trilogy. Most of his editorializing keeps the story largely intact but fixes things like pacing and solves minor gaffes, or makes major cosmetic improvements with the help of talented members in the community; something that is difficult for a single artist like myself to do on my own. I applaud the balance he’s found so far, even if I disagree with a few choices.

Again, retconning major facts about the trilogy is what I feel does not belong in this edit, and like it or not, the nature of the dyad are now major established facts within the Star Wars canon. These ideas will be expanded upon in future lore at some point, no doubt. Likely in ways that will improve their context, because that’s what has been happening with these films ever since the 70s.

I want this edit to stand the test of time. I’d like to show it to others as a good alternative to the official cut, not because of what it removes, but because of what it ads; a much stronger third act and better validation for Star Wars as a 9 film saga and a collection of TV shows fans know and love, nor merely a handful of movies in the 80s. TROS should be an ending to 40+ years of what this fandom has created, and yet the vanilla version only does so very weakly, both in its native story as well as its connections to what came before (its fanservice, if you will). It’s not perfect, but overall v1 of this TROS edit massively improves upon that. I think it found the perfect balance with the script as it is, and I can proudly and excitedly recommend it to others because of that, and the friends I have shown the v1 too agree with me that this is already a much stronger take on the film as it was.

This isn’t my project, not even close. I may still do my own take on the ST someday (though am deliberately choosing not too at this time), but until that time comes, I’d rather have this be the strongest version of the existing canon story that it can be, one that adds to it while still preserving the intent as much as possible, and even if that intent doesn’t line up perfectly with TFA and TLJ in our minds now, I have seen many whom feel it does, and I think it’d be a mistake not to consider that.

I’ll get off my soapbox now. It’s Hal’s edit and I’ve made my case. I just want to make sure all voices are heard clearly on this debate.

Very well written. Thank you. At the end of the day, me bringing up removing that line in TLJ was just me trying to convince everyone not to delete anything else from Ascendant. And I’m not forcing anyone to agree with me on why I feel that line deletion is necessary. I just don’t want this project to deviate too much from its source material.

I will definitely follow this thread when we delve into a more radical “Rey Nobody” edit, or an entirely different project that removes large portions of the film. I probably won’t use them as my preferred edits, but I like to look at other projects for ideas.

Jar Jar Bricks said:

I could most definitely keep the conversation up with you too Burbin, but at this point we’re talking about my own personal fan edit that I haven’t shared with anyone. Unless you are meaning to talk to Hal about his opinion on it? In which case carry on I suppose, because this is his forum post.

Yeah I was just chiming in with my take on the matter since Hal said he’d consider removing the mind bridge line.

Most of my posts have been concerned with my idea to remove the “every voice” bit. To me it seems right in line with other changes Hal has done in his edits. Removing it doesn’t alter or deny the expanded stuff, but it helps improve and streamline the plot in the movie trilogy. Doesn’t seem like a ‘radical’ idea that deviates from the project’s intention. Likewise I wouldn’t remove the ‘dyad’ stuff or the ‘bridged minds’, simply because to me it doesn’t harm or lessen what came before or after.

You believe that removing the bridged minds line is radical, and I feel that removing the voices in your head line is radical.

Ultimately perhaps it’s best not to touch either of them then. But it would really help if others chimed in on this discussion as well.

Perfect Hal, it all sounds really good to me. I agree it’s probably best to keep both lines because of the fact that your edits are so widely used by this community.

My own TLJ edit solves my own niche requirements about the movie, and that’s enough for me. I highly recommend creating personalized versions of some fan edits. Everyone has their own ideal fan edit, and I find it’s much simpler to remove content rather than add it back in.

Jar Jar Bricks said:

You believe that removing the bridged minds line is radical, and I feel that removing the voices in your head line is radical.

Ultimately perhaps it’s best not to touch either of them then. But it would really help if others chimed in on this discussion as well.

I don’t think either removal is radical. I just think removing one harms TLJ, and keeping the other harms TLJ. Basically I don’t want TLJ harmed lol. Ignoring and undoing TLJ seem to be TRoS’s #1 pastime after all, and you can’t undo that, but we can diminish the effects of it.

Thought I agree people should chime in to better inform ideas, as this is only my point of view and hearing others helps make more informed decisions after all.

Another thing we don’t have explanation is about the Emperor’s son… yeah I know he is a failed clone, but… what about deepfaking him to resemble a young Palpatine?

Burbin said:

Jar Jar Bricks said:

You believe that removing the bridged minds line is radical, and I feel that removing the voices in your head line is radical.

Ultimately perhaps it’s best not to touch either of them then. But it would really help if others chimed in on this discussion as well.

I don’t think either removal is radical. I just think removing one harms TLJ, and keeping the other harms TLJ. Basically I don’t want TLJ harmed lol. Ignoring and undoing TLJ seem to be TRoS’s #1 pastime after all, and you can’t undo that, but we can diminish the effects of it.

Thought I agree people should chime in to better inform ideas, as this is only my point of view and hearing others helps make more informed decisions after all.

Where you see harm to TLJ, I see an enhancement.

Snoke was frequently quoting Palpatine’s style of speaking in the throne room. On the surface this appears to be an either not too subtle homage, or even what one considers lazy writing. At best, you might consider it a deliberate representation of the idea that cycles of villainous methods of manipulation repeat themselves.

And yet with the added context of TROS and its revelations about Snoke’s connection to Palpatine, this subtle detail from TLJ goes from being perceived as lazy writing to being a deliberate hint at a much more overt connection, one that became very obvious to me the moment palpatine’s return was confirmed, even if that wasn’t the author’s intent, it lines up very well. Snoke instead becomes yet another byproduct of Palpatine’s legacy, a front line soldier designed to pave the way for the Emperor’s return and trained to operate his agenda while Sheev himself readies the final Order. A tool to take over the Imperial Remnants from within while without putting Palpatine himself (whom is physcially unable to act directly) at signifigant risk. Snoke doesn’t have to be himself a “meat puppet” to accomplish this; the nature of his training can be left ambiguous and up to the viewer’s imagination (though canon has confirmed officially that he does have a mind of his own, if it’s any comfort to you).

This means Snoke dying in TLJ was the right choice, because he was always intended as a disposable ally to pave the way for something greater. The TLJ novel implies that he simply showed up one day and swept into the First Order and took them over, either through treachery or perhaps even by force. This makes a lot of sense when in the lore, Rae Sloane took over the Imperial Remnants and disappeared into the Unknown Regions on her own, disconnected from Palpatine’s intended agenda. Snoke then becomes the perfect means to take these assets back and steer the plan back on course. This makes Snoke a logical extention of how Palpatine used Dooku decades earlier, as a disopsable minion meant to pave the way for the real prize… a dark sided member of the preciously powerful Skywalker leniage. Palpatine uses a variation of his modus operandi because, of course he would. It worked near perfectly before during the Clone Wars, so why not try it again? Only this time keep completely out of sight until your power is absolutely secure. It makes perfectly logical sense when you take the ENTIRE saga into account (and not just JJ’s heavy bias towards the OT), and fits much better than the authors themselves may have intended because of this. Snoke leads the First Order, a front line attack force meant to weaken and destroy the Republic, effectively taking revenge on one Skywalker (Leia), while Palpatine targets and manipulates Ben from within to target the Jedi, getting his revenge on Luke. Snoke and Palpatine then share a psuedo Master/Apprentice relationship because of this, even though Snoke himself is not officially a Sith (something he shouldn’t be when he’s just an artifical being meant more as a tool to be used).

It is possible for TLJ and TROS to be internally consistent if you look beyond your own internal bias and see how others can interpret the material. It’s not even that hard of a thing to do. Just because it isn’t necessarily “deliberate” doesn’t mean a capable author can’t flesh out the lore this way in the future.

Sadly, we can only do so much with this cut without having new material to fill. A better explanation for Palpatine’s “son” within the film itself would be a great touch, but not one that I think we could do easily or tastefully, and ultimately a less important point than people might think.

hedgesmfg said:

Where you see harm to TLJ, I see an enhancement.

Snoke was frequently quoting Palpatine’s style of speaking in the throne room. On the surface this appears to be an either not too subtle homage, or even what one considers lazy writing. At best, you might consider it a deliberate representation of the idea that cycles of villainous methods of manipulation repeat themselves.

And yet with the added context of TROS and its revelations about Snoke’s connection to Palpatine, this subtle detail from TLJ goes from being perceived as lazy writing to being a deliberate hint at a much more overt connection, one that became very obvious to me the moment palpatine’s return was confirmed, even if that wasn’t the author’s intent, it lines up very well. Snoke instead becomes yet another byproduct of Palpatine’s legacy, a front line soldier designed to pave the way for the Emperor’s return and trained to operate his agenda while Sheev himself readies the final Order. A tool to take over the Imperial Remnants from within while without putting Palpatine himself (whom is physcially unable to act directly) at signifigant risk. Snoke doesn’t have to be himself a “meat puppet” to accomplish this; the nature of his training can be left ambiguous and up to the viewer’s imagination (though canon has confirmed officially that he does have a mind of his own, if it’s any comfort to you).

This means Snoke dying in TLJ was the right choice, because he was always intended as a disposable ally to pave the way for something greater. The TLJ novel implies that he simply showed up one day and swept into the First Order and took them over, either through treachery or perhaps even by force. This makes a lot of sense when in the lore, Rae Sloane took over the Imperial Remnants and disappeared into the Unknown Regions on her own, disconnected from Palpatine’s intended agenda. Snoke then becomes the perfect means to take these assets back and steer the plan back on course. This makes Snoke a logical extention of how Palpatine used Dooku decades earlier, as a disopsable minion meant to pave the way for the real prize… a dark sided member of the preciously powerful Skywalker leniage. Palpatine uses a variation of his modus operandi because, of course he would. It worked near perfectly before during the Clone Wars, so why not try it again? Only this time keep completely out of sight until your power is absolutely secure. It makes perfectly logical sense when you take the ENTIRE saga into account (and not just JJ’s heavy bias towards the OT), and fits much better than the authors themselves may have intended because of this. Snoke leads the First Order, a front line attack force meant to weaken and destroy the Republic, effectively taking revenge on one Skywalker (Leia), while Palpatine targets and manipulates Ben from within to target the Jedi, getting his revenge on Luke. Snoke and Palpatine then share a psuedo Master/Apprentice relationship because of this, even though Snoke himself is not officially a Sith (something he shouldn’t be when he’s just an artifical being meant more as a tool to be used).

It is possible for TLJ and TROS to be internally consistent if you look beyond your own internal bias and see how others can interpret the material. It’s not even that hard of a thing to do. Just because it isn’t necessarily “deliberate” doesn’t mean a capable author can’t flesh out the lore this way in the future.

Sadly, we can only do so much with this cut without having new material to fill. A better explanation for Palpatine’s “son” within the film itself would be a great touch, but not one that I think we could do easily or tastefully, and ultimately a less important point than people might think.

I mostly agree with this interpretation of events, which binds TLJ & TRoS (from a plot/lore perspective at least), and I do want them to bind as neatly as possible. But as you note this interpretation doesn’t involve Snoke being directly controlled by Palpatine like a puppet. That’s my main issue with that line, that to the average layman viewer it could imply Palpatine was Snoke, or was directly controlling Snoke. It’s implicit in the line, though it could be interpreted in a number of ways, and as you say it was clarified that Snoke was his own person. But without that line there wouldn’t be a need for clarification. Saying “I made Snoke… the First Order was just the beginnig” gives us enough to connect everything without raising further questions, and as you say, leaves things ambiguous and up to the viewer’s imagination.

If a viewer is left assuming Palpatine and Snoke were the same or mostly the same character, then their view of TLJ is harmed, as to them ‘killing’ Snoke would mostly ammount to unplugging Palpatine from a host body.

Burbin said:

If a viewer is left assuming Palpatine and Snoke were the same or mostly the same character, then their view of TLJ is harmed, as to them ‘killing’ Snoke would mostly ammount to unplugging Palpatine from a host body.

Funnily enough, I actually find this enhances my enjoyment of TLJ rather than harming it. Yes, I understand it retroactively isn’t as much of an impactful event because he isn’t the “big bad” of the trilogy anymore. But when you have such a powerful villain die so easily in the second movie of a trilogy, it is to be expected that he would be diminished in such a way. Otherwise, the final movie in the trilogy has less stakes than the second one. That’s just bad storytelling in a trilogy.

With the removal of all the Snoke bodies he could easily be perceived not just as one of many potential host bodies, but as the only host body Palpatine had at his disposal that wasn’t attached to a medical crane arm. This in and of itself is significant enough for the characters to have defeated in the second movie. At least for me.

Oh of course none of this was ever the filmmaker’s intention in TLJ. That concept is laughable to me. Maybe I haven’t been clear enough. I’m only speaking from the perspective of those writing TROS. And you’re free to label what I’m doing mental gymnastics, but I’m being honest when I say that it doesn’t feel that way to myself.

On the topic of Kylo being the “big bad”, I feel that would have been a bad idea. Unless there was radical change in his character, it would have felt quite underwhelming. Adam Driver just does such a fantastic job playing a conflicted villain. Who knows, maybe he would have been capable of delivering a good performance as a purely evil character. But I have a hard time believing it would work overall, especially in the writing department. He wasn’t taken seriously enough as a villain in the first two films, and that would only leave the final one to turn things around.

Plus, I appreciate the parallels between Anakin and Ben. Anakin starts a hero, and becomes a villain in the lava. Kylo starts a villain, and becomes a hero in the water.

Jar Jar Bricks said:

Burbin said:

If a viewer is left assuming Palpatine and Snoke were the same or mostly the same character, then their view of TLJ is harmed, as to them ‘killing’ Snoke would mostly ammount to unplugging Palpatine from a host body.

Funnily enough, I actually find this enhances my enjoyment of TLJ rather than harming it. Yes, I understand it retroactively isn’t as much of an impactful event because he isn’t the “big bad” of the trilogy anymore. But when you have such a powerful villain die so easily in the second movie of a trilogy, it is to be expected that he would be diminished in such a way. Otherwise, the final movie in the trilogy has less stakes than the second one. That’s just bad storytelling in a trilogy.

With the removal of all the Snoke bodies he could easily be perceived not just as one of many potential host bodies, but as the only host body Palpatine had at his disposal that wasn’t attached to a medical crane arm. This in and of itself is significant enough for the characters to have defeated in the second movie. At least for me.

I’m not saying that moment is harmed because Snoke is no longer the big bad, he wasn’t by the end of TLJ either and whether he was a puppet or not wouldn’t change that. I’m saying it totally negates Kylo’s whole character arc in TLJ if all it amounts to is pulling the chord on a Palpy puppet. If we have some degree of separation between Snoke and Palps at least the story in TLJ is only harmed by bringing in another big bad, instead of it being literally the same one, thus negating the conclusion in the previous movie.

I don’t believe bringing up Duel of the Fates is constructive since TRoS is all we have, but you can definitely have a villain be conflicted and still be the main antagonist. And that’s what he was in DotF, he even turned good in some drafts. Kylo’s whole arc in TFA and TLJ was about rising and becoming the villain. And having Kylo as the main villain would’ve definitely raised the personal stakes for our characters, Rey, Leia, Luke etc. Stakes aren’t defined by the ‘power level’ or the range of the villain. Starkiller Base destroying an entire system as opposed to a single planet didn’t make the stakes feel any higher than either Death Star, for example.