I agree: the video game shot doesn’t work but only because it’s beyond our reach. I appreciate all the R&D to pursue possibilities, even if the result is to choose to forego it from an informed place.
Exactly this, considering what was available to work with, the results are very impressive.
But unfortunately, it still sticks out like a sore thumb, to me at least.
Burbin, that does make good sense and would seem to make for a more serious, less retconny opening sequence.
I wonder if the “every voice” line could be tossed into the Vader mask montage, to still be able to clarify that Anakin wasn’t somehow funneling evil from the post-redemption great beyond.
Quite liked the “I have been every voice inside you’re head” where it was from the gecko, not sure how I feel about it moving, if it works could be interesting. Don’t want to see the line lost thats for sure.
Filmic Crossroads, Daniel L. Isidore
Quite liked the “I have been every voice inside you’re head” where it was from the gecko, not sure how I feel about it moving, if it works could be interesting. Don’t want to see the line lost thats for sure.
+1
I’m sure this point has probably been discussed before, but what do you guys think of this edit?
https://vimeo.com/512114042
pw:fanedit
This is very similar to my version. I don’t feel you need to delay “my boy” he also says “I made Snoke” but in your version, we see Palp clones. I feel it’s better to keep the Snoke clones after he says that to show and tell.
@Poppa, It’s all good man. You’re one in a billion and done more than your fair share already. 😉
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Dialog aside, I’d rather see Palp clones than Snoke clones, since explaining why Palps is back is more immediately important to the movie than explaining where Snoke came from.
I also like “every voice” as it is and where it is. Ditto “I made Snoke.” Without the Snoke Clones, it’s easy to read that line as meaning he trained Snoke, made him who he is - saying someone “made” someone is a real-world turn of phrase which means that anyway.
Similarly, I never thought Vader’s voice in the “every voice” line was meant to be literal. Palpatine, or rather the Sith (whom Palpaine is now all of), has always been influencing Kylo indirectly, leading his fate here. When Kylo would ask the Vader helmet for guidance in TFA, it was clearly meant to be more of a personal reflection and internally meditative sort of thing, not him literally being spoken to by Darth Vader’s actual voice.
“It’s like rhymetry. They poem.” - Leorge Gucas
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I think the every voice part is one of the parts of the movie that genuinely works. It’s also a quick way of connected palpatine to it all. I think moving it would moving it would cheapen the revelation.
I don’t know what the official canon explanations (retcons within retcons) are, whether Snoke was a literal puppet or if Kylo could literally hear Vader’s voice guiding him, but I think that’s how the line reads in this movie. It’s misleading at best, and a retcon at worst.
When Kylo would ask the Vader helmet for guidance in TFA, it was clearly meant to be more of a personal reflection and internally meditative sort of thing, not him literally being spoken to by Darth Vader’s actual voice.
To me Kylo’s relationship with Vader in TFA seemed exactly like this. A fanatical worship of Vader’s legacy, which he feels he must carry on (“I will finish what you started”). In TLJ he gives up this quest all together, because as Snoke tells him, he’ll never live up to Vader. So he destroys his mask and sets out to forge his own legacy. In this movie he finds Vader’s former Master, who tells him he can not just live up to Vader’s legacy, but surpass it (“become what your grandfather Vader could not”). So he picks up that quest again, reforging his mask and placing Vader’s helmet by his side again.
Not the most exciting overarching story after TLJ, but it can at least work if you don’t imply that 1.- Palpatine was also talking to him as ‘Vader’ (which leads him nowhere, as he gives up on that quest) and 2.- Palpatine was also talking to him as ‘Snoke’ (the man who litteraly tells him he’s no Vader). It’s honestly baffling how obsessed this movie is in making Palpatine be directly involved in everything from the previous movies. Making Palpatine’s relation on Kylo less direct (he was the Master of Vader, who molded his whole Kylo Ren persona. He was involved in some way with the creation of the First Order he commands, and he “made” his former Master) works far better.
The line could still be read as meaning he trained Snoke and made him who he is, while also hinting that it may be more literal.
I think the every voice part is one of the parts of the movie that genuinely works. It’s also a quick way of connected palpatine to it all. I think moving it would moving it would cheapen the revelation.
That’s the exact reason I removed it. Quick way and completely unjustified, IMO
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Burbin is right.
The line doesn’t work even in the original cut of the movie when you think about it, especially on the Snoke side per Buebins rationale.
Also, if the focus on the fanedit is to remove the “direct” link of snoke and palpable (aka Snoke the Meat Puppet) then why have that line? If Snoke vats are no more and the idea is Snokes origin is now ambiguous, in that Palps “I made him” is not literal, then why have the line?
“Because you are a PalpaWalker?”
I mean Kylo literally said, “Show me again, the power of the darkness”. Clearly the mask is showing him visions, and it isn’t a huge leap to assume that means there was conversation as well. To me, Kylo’s arc in TLJ is actually him becoming aware of what living up to Vader’s legacy truly means. Vader didn’t care about the Jedi or the Sith. All he cared about was ruling the galaxy and forgetting about his tragic past, which is exactly what Kylo seeks to do after TLJ. Vader always wanted to destroy Palpatine, and Kylo lived up to that by killing his own master. If he had truly abandoned his quest he would have destroyed Vader’s mask just like his own. I think he just realized how childish it was to assume that just because he had a mask meant he was more like Vader, so in his anger he destroyed it. He only reforged it when he felt he was worthy enough to wear it again.
TL;DR Version: Snoke didn’t crush Kylo’s Vader persona, he only strengthened it.
Also, if the focus on the fanedit is to remove the “direct” link of snoke and palpable (aka Snoke the Meat Puppet) then why have that line? If Snoke vats are no more and the idea is Snokes origin is now ambiguous, in that Palps “I made him” is not literal, then why have the line?
Well, I know we don’t have to abide by canon, but Snoke is a strand-cast, or biologically engineered individual. As a result, even I thought it was stupid to show a vat full of Snoke clones, because Snoke ISN’T a clone. That would be like creating an extremely detailed work of art and then creating it exactly the same way a second and third time. It’s near impossible.
As a standcast, he does have his own free will. However, through the manipulation of genetics and Palpatine he is at some times forced to do certain things and think certain ways. And I already stated in my previous post why Snoke’s actions against Kylo actually line up with Palpatine’s.
Those are fair points, though I’d argue the Kylo in TLJ embodies the message of “let the past die”. He doesn’t shed his persona, but he clearly takes it in his own path and separates himself from Vader, it’s made clear that him becoming “a new Vader” was Snoke’s ambition, and he ends up killing Snoke and renouncing that path. Learning Rey comes from nowhere further makes him realize his “legacy” didn’t define who he was. So by the end of TLJ it’s pretty clear that living up to Vader’s legacy is as far from Kylo’s goal as possible. He “kills” his past, incuding his obsession with Vader.
That obsession could also explain his percieved “connection” to Vader’s charred helmet. He saw power where there was none, he worshiped the idea of Darth Vader the Sith Lord, while ingnoring the true man that was his grandfather. Much like how our heroes only thought about Luke as the Jedi Master of legend who would solve everything. Both ‘myths’ are deconstructed in TLJ.
Those are fair points, though I’d argue the Kylo in TLJ embodies the message of “let the past die”. He doesn’t shed his persona, but he clearly takes it in his own path and separates himself from Vader, it’s made clear that him becoming “a new Vader” was Snoke’s ambition, and he ends up killing Snoke and renouncing that path. Learning Rey comes from nowhere further makes him realize his “legacy” didn’t define who he was. So by the end of TLJ it’s pretty clear that living up to Vader’s legacy is as far from Kylo’s goal as possible. He “kills” his past, incuding his obsession with Vader.
Yes, but as I stated, in a roundabout way him doing all that is precisely what Vader sought to do (but was never able to). Snoke, whether he realized it or not, was there as a test to see if Kylo could evolve into Vader+, which would be a worthy candidate for Palpatine and the Sith of the past to transfer their essence into.
Let me describe the philosophy of this project by illustration on a similar point.
The (main version of) this project doesn’t radically alter the plot points, including Rey being a Palpatine, though hopes to make the retconning as congruous as possible with what came before. I appreciate the nuanced improvement we get by replacing Kylo Ren’s line, “I never lied to you” with “You were right.” It has the same retconning effect while demonstrating attention to details that makes it more believable that it was the underlying truth all along.
I’m not sure and will need to think about it (or, more realistically, entertain discussion from you all) to see whether removing that line does something similar. The whole thing is pretty silly, with Palpatine literally doing everything all along and making it so concrete rather than thematic.
I just figured out what I’m trying to say better. You say that living up to Vader’s legacy is as far from Kylo’s goal as possible at the end of TLJ. And I agree 100%. That is because his new goal is to live up to the ideals that Vader was never able to live up to himself, yet wanted to. Vader would have most certainly done the things Kylo did in TLJ if it weren’t for his limitations.
“I will finish what you started.”
I mean just watch the conversation between Anakin/Vader and Padme on Mustafar and then compare it to the one between Kylo and Rey on the Supremacy. Both Vader and Kylo say almost the exact same rhetoric (and their partner reacts the same way in response).
I’d agree it’s a nice read of the character, that he inadvertantly becomes a true Vader-like figure by letting go of his childish obsession with Vader. Wich would play nicely with Palpatine’s manipulating, telling him he can become even greater than Vader. Prompting him to rebuild his mask as he’s earned it.
As for removing the line, the nice thing is this change doesn’t directly contradict canon, it can remain as expanded material such as the Order 66 chip or Boba escaping the Sarlaac. But removing it helps the flow of the story in the movie trilogy. It’s similar to stuff like not having Obi-wan address R2 in the prequels.
Most of the expanded stuff that’s come out only further does a disservice and draws episode IX further apart from VIII. Such as turning Snoke into a ‘test’, removing Kylo’s agency in overturning his Master.
Most of the expanded stuff that’s come out only further does a disservice and draws episode IX further apart from VIII. Such as turning Snoke into a ‘test’, removing Kylo’s agency in overturning his Master.
Pretty sure I’m the only person that feels this way, but this is exactly why I like TROS. I’ve grown to actually enjoy TLJ because of the movie’s clarifications (or retcons, as many others prefer to call them). I just happen to disagree that some of these retcons harm TLJ as a whole.
Clearly none of this was planned out, I can admit that. But I still enjoy it for what it is (with minor tweaks here and there).
Fair enough.
“At last. Snoke trained you well.”
“I killed Snoke. I’ll kill you.”
“My boy, I made Snoke… The First Order was just the beginning. I will give you so much more.”
“You’ll die first.”
“I’ve died before. Kill me, and my spirit will pass into you. As all the Sith live in me.”
If we wanted to remove the line, I imagine it’d be best to simply remove the footage where it takes place. Maintain the pace, just without that line present. The Snoke line remains prior to any shots walking us closer to Palpatine including his clone vat.
Not sure whether to, but if so that’d probably be best.
Alternatively, there could be 2 separate audio tracks. The one excluding the line could be similar to the concept posted by Burbin.
Honestly, I’m just trying to avoid having to create my own version of this edit. I really hate my free editing software. But we need more people to chime in with their opinion on the line. Maybe make a poll?
I would keep the line in, but remove the sound of Vader breathing afterwords. For me, that was the part that made it feel too fanservice-y.
You’ve got to ask yourself one question: “Am I making Carrie Fisher’s ghost proud?”
Well, are ya, punk?
Also, if the focus on the fanedit is to remove the “direct” link of snoke and palpable (aka Snoke the Meat Puppet) then why have that line? If Snoke vats are no more and the idea is Snokes origin is now ambiguous, in that Palps “I made him” is not literal, then why have the line?
Well, I know we don’t have to abide by canon, but Snoke is a strand-cast, or biologically engineered individual. As a result, even I thought it was stupid to show a vat full of Snoke clones, because Snoke ISN’T a clone. That would be like creating an extremely detailed work of art and then creating it exactly the same way a second and third time. It’s near impossible.
As a standcast, he does have his own free will. However, through the manipulation of genetics and Palpatine he is at some times forced to do certain things and think certain ways. And I already stated in my previous post why Snoke’s actions against Kylo actually line up with Palpatine’s.
I get there is an explanation, but one of my personal gripes is for a movie to have the audience to then either read the books, comics, tweets/interviews from the director AFTER, etc. for explanations on important things that involve the plot and the story. Just my opinion.
As the movie stands, it pretty much implies that Snoke is a meat puppet since Palps uses his voice, and Vaders, to Kylo saying he is ALL those voices influencing him. So for the sake of the audience, it’s best to leave it ambiguous instead of so concrete.
As Burbin mentioned, which I agree with, the simple removal of the line doesn’t really change anything on the facts of the matter. It just leaves it more open to interpretation.
As for a personal view too, it’s better to at least imply there is distinction to the two since in the last movie, although it is a retcon now of the whole Kylo/Rey Mind Bridge connection is now the Dyad stuff … Palps was utterly surprised during the force draining thing … when we have Snoke in the previous movie that “he bridged their minds.” If Snoke is the Meat Puppet, then Palps did it … so there should be no surprise.
Now I know the whole Dyad thing was of JJ doings to help explain things and it was not the concept at all from the previous movie, and you can argue he just bridged their minds as in being able to communicate in the force, but at another level compared to like Luke and Vader reaching out in the original movies and didn’t know about there Dyadness/in the room/etc., but for the audience we saw it in the last movie and now it has a name … and Snoke did something in the last movie to affect what we saw then and now … but he is Palpatine’s Meat Puppet … Why is he surprised and taken back by it? Even if he didn’t know for sure, he would have suspected something … but he didn’t.
Just a simple thing to fix that “kinda” plot hole.
“Because you are a PalpaWalker?”