yotsuya

pittrek said:

yotsuya said:

pittrek said:

I’d love to see the “original original” versions of the 1977 credits! Will you include also the cloudless composite during the “leaving Yavin 4” sequence for this version?
I’d love to see all the existing versions in “as good as possible” quality, so your plan sounds exciting.

I’m going for as complete as possible. Until someone gets their hands on some of the film elements to scan them, portions of the SE, TPM, and AOTC will never be better than enhanced SD. That is why I’m using the GOUT. Number one it is complete and number two it is essentially the same quality as the SE and TPM.

And I don’t have any element to make the cloudless composite. I’ve heard of it, but there really isn’t anything different in the versions I have in my library. I have several LD archived versions, but Puggo and Moth3r’s are the only ones so far that I’ve found with the different credits and the quality is such that I can’t see anything different.

Taken from here :
http://originaltrilogy.com/topic/Credits-and-Leaders-Thread/id/12960

‘Draft’ - 1977 opening day prints
pre-ANH widescreen bootleg (mthr)
pre-ANH bootleg ‘PS77-78?’ (AntcuFaalb)
16mm English (PuggoGrande)
16mm English (Catnap)

And this thread : http://originaltrilogy.com/topic/Print-variations-in-77-Star-Wars/id/14705
claims that

The “cloudy composite” version can be seen in:
35mm Widescreen bootleg (Moth3r)
35mm Widescreen bootleg (AntcuFaalb)
16mm (PuggoGrande)
16mm (Catnap)
Super 8 Derann
NTSC home video versions '82 - '92
PAL home video versions '82 - '91
UK ITV Broadcast version (1982)

Well, you have sent me on an editing spree. I found three shots (all effects shots) that are different - in each in reels 3, 5, and 6. I am still looking for others. But those are the same three the other thread discussed. As they all have imperfections and are archived in PuggoGrand, I think it is safe to say they would have been there on opening day. I will have to incorporate them into my edit. I think I’ll also use the 35 mm crawl. I think the fade out in reel one is also longer. I still have to check other versions before I confirm that. Right now I’m using JSC for the elements and confirming them with SWE and Puggo.

The one Jetrell Fo so kindly reseeded is the raw wav extract of the DTS discs. Exactly what I was looking for.

As for the quality of the mixes, the 97 mix is just the good old OOT 93 mix with additions (but the added benefit of being in the original separate channels for full 5 channel surround sound). The 2001 version is remixed from the original elements. That particular edit sounds deliberate to me with the first line being lower than in previous mixes. I will have to check out the quality part when I can listen to it with headphones.

Well, I will certainly consider it, but the 97 SE mix requires a lot of editing. I personally have not found the 2011 mix to have any issues and all I have to do to use that is just extract it. The 2011 mix is the closest of all the the ANH mixes to the 77 mono mix (ignoring for the moment that it has all the SE modifications). As my dream mix is a 5.1 surround version of the mono mix, that is as close as I can get without doing it myself. The 2004 mix of the SE OT has some surround issues and other problems that make it the most inferior and ignorable set of audio mixes.

Possessed said:

For star wars 2011/2004 audio I would honestly just use the 97 mix and just splice in the few content changes because the 2011 mix is basically just a horribly butchered 97 mix where they pulled every line of dialogue from a different source with very few content changes.

According to Ben Burtt, he went back to the original sources. And that much splicing of 5.1 audio is more work than it is worth. Except for Beru remaining unchanged, ANH is closer to the mono mix than any previous mix so it is closer to what I consider the definitive mix than the 97 SE.

pittrek said:

I’d love to see the “original original” versions of the 1977 credits! Will you include also the cloudless composite during the “leaving Yavin 4” sequence for this version?
I’d love to see all the existing versions in “as good as possible” quality, so your plan sounds exciting.

I’m going for as complete as possible. Until someone gets their hands on some of the film elements to scan them, portions of the SE, TPM, and AOTC will never be better than enhanced SD. That is why I’m using the GOUT. Number one it is complete and number two it is essentially the same quality as the SE and TPM.

And I don’t have any element to make the cloudless composite. I’ve heard of it, but there really isn’t anything different in the versions I have in my library. I have several LD archived versions, but Puggo and Moth3r’s are the only ones so far that I’ve found with the different credits and the quality is such that I can’t see anything different.

One thing I would like to include that I need help with is the proper THX intro for the SE. I remember that it was Tex, but I can’t remember if it was Tex working on the logo or Tex with the moo can. Anyone have some concrete info on this?

I’m working on a massive project. Only as I’ve started to have some success has the shape of it solidified so that I can describe what I intend.

What I imagine for my library (and those I know personally that I can burn discs for) is a set of 6 50 GB Blu-rays. Each film contained on a single disc. The main feature on each is a restored and color corrected version of the Blu-ray. The additional features that fill the other half of the blu-ray will vary, but will include the theatrical version(s) of the film.

Star Wars is the challenge. While it is the shortest of the 6 films, it features the most variety in versions. It will probably dictate the bitrate of the rest of the set. I want to include the original theatrical version, the 1981 rerelease, and the 1997 SE. If I was leaving those in SD, it would be simple, but I’ve been able to enhance them and in doing so they really are best seen at 720p (downscaling them to DVD widescreen sd diminishes the quality. So that will be a total of 4 version of the video of the film, the mono soundtrack, and stereo and surround versions of each of the audio edits. The main feature will technically be a hybrid of the DVD and Blu-ray version (Blu-ray audio and run time with a reversion of the edits to the DVD version while keeping many of the fixes) while restoring the color and as many of the issue that I have the ability to address.

Disc 1
A New Hope
Restored with 2011 audio track (5.1 mix and 2 channel Dolby Surround matrix downmix)
1977 Premier version - Dolby Stereo and 4.1 surround mix
1981 rerelease version - mono mix, 1977 Dolby Stereo and 4.1 Surround mix, 1985 Dolby Stereo and X.1 Surround mix, 1993 Stereo and 5.1 Surround mix
(edit: now leaning toward including all 4 visual edits using angles, the 77 premier, the 77 general, the 80’s home video, and the 81/93 rerelease version)
1997 SE - Dolby Stereo, 5.1 Surround mix

Disc 2
The Empire Strikes Back
Restored with 2011 audio track (5.1 mix and 2 channel Dolby Surround matrix downmix)
1980 theatrical version - 1980 Mono, Dolby Stereo and 4.1 surround mix, 1993 Dolby Stereo and 5.1 surround mix
1997 SE - Dolby Stereo, 5.1 Surround mix
The Making of Star Wars
The Star Wars Holiday Special
FX of The Empire Strikes Back

Disc 3
Return of the Jedi
Restored with 2011 audio track (5.1 mix and 2 channel Dolby Surround matrix downmix)
1983 theatrical version - 1983 Dolby Stereo and 4.1 surround mix, 1993 Dolby Stereo and 5.1 surround mix
1997 SE - Dolby Stereo, 5.1 Surround mix
Classic Creatures: Making Return of the Jedi
From Star Wars to Jedi, the Making of a Saga
Empire of Dreams

Disc 4
The Phantom Menace
Restored with 2011 audio track (5.1 mix and 2 channel Dolby Surround matrix downmix)
1999 theatrical version - Dolby Stereo and 5.1 surround mix
unknown extras

Disc 5
Attack of the Clones
Restored with 2011 audio track (5.1 mix and 2 channel Dolby Surround matrix downmix)
2002 theatrical version - Dolby Stereo and 5.1 surround mix
unknown extras

Disc 6
Revenge of the Sith
Restored with 2011 audio track (5.1 mix and 2 channel Dolby Surround matrix downmix)
2005 Theatrical version - Dolby Stereo and 5.1 surround mix (likely restored to match the leaked version with the leaked version as an additional bonus)
unknown extras

Disc 7
The Force Awakens
Color corrected with 5.1 audio mix and 2 channel Dolby Surround downmix
Add Fox logo with fanfare.

Disc 8
The Last Jedi
5.1 audio mix and 2 channel Dolby Surround downmix
Add Fox logo with fanfare.

Sources:
2006 UK GOUT (not missing frames like the US GOUT is)
recreation of the 77 end credits based on Moth3r’s bootleg and Puggo Grand
recreation/remaster of the 1981 opening crawl sequence
Audio from LD and GOUT with 4.1 and 5.1 extracted from Dolby matrix encoding
SE from Gkar and TB with audio from DTS
TPM theatrical from TB and ORF with audio from DTS
AOTC Camera print (for speeder elements and Anakin’s hand) with audio from DTS
ROTS leaked theatrical version at 640x288 (no end credits) with audio from DTS
HD broadcast of DVD versions
Blu-ray discs
DVDs of 2011 blu-ray version (for 5.1 mix)
other sources as needed

For my own viewing I detest dubs so outside of one unique language version, there will be subtitles, no dubs (Also no room). I might include isolated scores if there is room.

Update: GOUT color corrected. Working on some fixes to some bad DNR scenes in ANH (1st draft done, working on improving the end result). TESB and ROTJ SE are color corrected. ANH is full of issues but is nearing completion. DTS audio for SE and PT complete along with a Dolby Stereo mixdown. 93 OT audio from faces set complete. Still working on original theatrical and ANH 85 mixes (finding lots of cuts in the audio that need to be patched so using a Dolby ProLogic decoder could result in some momentary dual surround channels, but shouldn’t be noticable). DTS audio is 5.0, as are the surround extracts of the Dolby Stereo tracks. LFE channel calculated from surround channels per Dolby theatrical decoding standards. Some people have expressed concerned on the quality of the 2011 mixes so I might patch/restore those if I think it is necessary. If so, I will have to figure out which audio sources to use (obviously I prefer the 2011 mix due to the issues in the 2004 mix so the 2004 mix wouldn’t even be considered, but there are multiple versions of the 2011 mix and I would source any replacements from the 97 SE DTS audio).

Interesting take on things.

TV’s Frink said:

yotsuya said:

I guess I don’t hate the prequels quite as much because they were pretty much everything I had expected them to be.

You sure had low expectations.

No, they covered the story I expected, but they weren’t as good as I had hoped.

The love story was very classic Hollywood - not quite forced, but not quite natural.

Hmmm, no. It was one of the most forced “romances” in the history of film.

Then you haven’t watched enough classic movies.

Well, I can’t say that I caught the green when I saw The Matrix in the theater, but when I saw the two sequels in the theater, I very much noticed it. I can’t say that the extent of tint in the blu-ray is accurate, but I would say the DVD is accurate. And it is possible that the prints were not done as accurately as they wanted and what you are seeing on the print is actually an error rather than the correct colors. But I absolutely did notice it the theater when I saw the third movie. In my experience and knowledge, distribution prints are not done with the care and accuracy of color that the many talented people on this site tend to have. I’m more inclined to believe the scanned print is in error than there was some drastic change in artistic direction between the first and third movies.

I guess I’m confused why you would want to scub out the green tint in this film when it was original to the production and not added for the home video release. All the scenes (and only those scenes) within the Matrix are supposed to be tinted green. None of the scenes outside the Matrix have that green tint. It was an artistic choice the filmmakers made and it is really cool when you can instantly know whether you are in the real world or the matrix by the tint of the image on screen. It is like that for every Matrix installment. It really seems more fan edit than preservation to make such a major change to the movie.

Well, I expected what the OT said. That Anakin was a great pilot before they met, that Obi-wan trained him and didn’t do as good a job as Yoda (at least in Obi-wan’s mind). We’d see R2 and Threepio in each movie. Somewhere the Clone Wars happen. That Anakin would fall to the dark side leading to an epic light-saber duel between Obi-wan and Anakin in or around an active volcano. Anakin lost and was horribly injured and burned and ends up in the suit. Anakin’s wife would be in there somewhere and the link to the Lars’s and Luke and Leia would be separated at birth. I expected to see the rise of Palpatine as Emperor and for Bail Organa and the Jedi to be portrayed in some manner.

I guess I don’t hate the prequels quite as much because they were pretty much everything I had expected them to be. I truly love the Palpatine arc. I wasn’t so keen on the whole virgin birth and Owen being Anakin’s step-brother, but it fits with the OT. I didn’t expect Jar Jar, I don’t think anyone did. And I don’t think anyone over 10 really liked him. I did love Boss Nass (I love just about everything Brian Blessed does). I loved the politics, the convoluted story. The love story was very classic Hollywood - not quite forced, but not quite natural. I think in the scheme of things they made Anakin too whiny. An American accent, but too much like David Prowse on set performance. ATOC has too much strife between Obi-wan and Anakin and not enough mentor/friendship (it was there but overshadowed). It would have been nicer if that episode joined the clone wars in progress. The intrigue behind the start of it was important to the rise of Palpatine, but did not further the Obi-wan/Anakin friendship. I think the lack of the friendship part on screen really was the kicker as to why I didn’t like it as much as I’d hoped. Unless, of course, Obi-wan was lying about that as well, in ANH.

I’m not sure how that 35 mm print was scanned, but the Blu-ray is closer to how I remember it in the theater. All the in-Matrix scenes are supposed to have a slight green tint. You could argue that the tint is too much in the Blu-ray, but this has taken it all away. It is part of the film and should not be removed completely.

theMaestro said:

Is there a way to take a 5.1 mix and decode & create separate audio tracks for voices, sound fx, and music?

That all depends on how they are mixed together. I’ve found it usually easy to lift out music (often better preserved and separated in the surround tracks). But most of the time the rest of the sound mix is pretty jumbled and hard to separate.

junh1024 said:

Anyways, I think using the Dolby Pro Logic IIx 6.1 decoder will yield better results even for mono surrounds than Dolby Pro Logic II 5.1 or Dolby Pro Logic 4.0.

Not necessarily. Decoders/upscalers decode to whatever output config you select.

The upscalers have NO KNOWLEDGE of the config of the source material, all they get is 2ch something. And they WILL upscale to any number of speakers you select.

DPL2x is 6.1 OR 7.1 (Again, whatever you select). DPL2x will (generally) NOT increase the discreteness of your upscale by a large amount, because there is only so much info you can store in (matrixed) 2ch (in fact, the most sortove discrete ch you can store in 2ch is 3ch with the best DPL2 decoding, you can only get more with extremely controlled synthetic conditions.). Using professional 5.1>7.1 upmixers, what’s in the back 4 is basically the same as the previous 2.

You can>: decode to 5.1 (DPL2) and mono the rears. OR decode to 4ch (DPL1) and stereoize the back.

That is not quite correct. The original Dolby Stereo (the 4 channel matrix encoding) contains 4 distinct channels. Sounds can be directed to any channel. Using Dolby Prologic II decoding may produce 5 channels, but the two surround channels are identical if the source only had 4 channels. When Dolby updated their encoding in the 80’s, they found a way to encode stereo surround channels. Dolby Prologic II decoding produces 5 distinct channels. Now there may be some crosstalk between channels that interferes with the purity of the mix, but anyone who did a matrixed mix should be paying attention to how it comes out of the decoder and there should be nothing significant. And the way Dolby decided to encode the LFE was to use the surround channels below 120 Hz. That gives you the full 5.1 channels from a 2 channel source.

Now when you apply this to Star Wars, the sources for the 77 and 85 mixes are not complete. True they are only missing a few frames, but to avoid any issue between 4 and 5 channels is to create a 4.1 or 5.1 mix where you can down convert the stereo surround of the 93 mix (the most complete) to the mono of the 77 mix. But you can never upconvert that mono surround to be anything else. You can apply a stereo field effect to it, but all that does is broaden the sound (I’ve played with this quite a bit to make a mono song not feel so out of place among stereo songs). You are limited by the source and the decoder. Whichever uses the fewest channels is what you get for output. It doesn’t matter how many surround speakers you have, the sound will be the same.

I think some of the older post in this topic have some very incorrect information to them. I can’t say if there was an initial version downmixed to just stereo for the earliest showings for stereo optical prints. I don’t know if we have any of those prints left. From what I’ve found so far, the initial release had different end credits. This is preserved with the Moth3r widescreen bootleg and Puggo Grand. Both of of these have the same voice for Beru as the 70 mm and the Dolby Stereo mixes. Quite different from the mono mix (along with all the other changes). It is an interesting question whether there was an early stereo mix. But the 6 channel and Dolby Stereo Matrix mixes have identical mix stems. There are no differences and this is the source for all the later mixes (1985, 1993, 1997, 2004, 2011 - which differ as to how many of the changes made to the Mono mix were incorporated back in). As Star Wars was not the first film to feature Dolby Stereo and as the 70 mm (for which there is an in theater recording from 1977) prints were some of the earliest shown, I very much doubt that there was a different 2 channel plain stereo mix. It would have been just as easy to run the 4 main channels (minus the one or two LFE channels) through the encoder to make the optical track. As there were no changes from the early 70 mm prints to the main run Dolby Stereo prints, the tale of a separate 2 channel plain stereo makes no sense.

Swift S. Lawliet said:

Actually, Dolby Pro Logic IIx is 6.1 surround sound.

And it may be better than using plain Dolby Pro Logic 4.0 or Dolby Pro Logic II 5.1 as you said.

I think the Despecialized Editions should be in DTS-HD Master Audio 6.1 Discrete in the next versions.

That would be really awesome.

I didn’t care much for 6.1 on the Star Wars: The Complete Saga Blu-rays but I absolutely loved the 6.1 surround sound effects on The Lord of the Rings Trilogy and especially on The Studio Ghibli Collection.

Just turn on the Dolby Digital EX flag for the DVD-5 and AVCHD DVD-9 versions while the MKV version is a discrete DTS-HD Master Audio 6.1 track.

Anyways, I think using the Dolby Pro Logic IIx 6.1 decoder will yield better results even for mono surrounds than Dolby Pro Logic II 5.1 or Dolby Pro Logic 4.0.

You have to have the audio source to warrant it. The Pro Logic decoders can only decode what was encoded in the audio in the first place, they do not create the channels, they just decode them. So when you run the original 77 Star Wars Stereo mix through a 5.1 decoder, you only get 4 channels. Run it through a 6.1 or 7.1 decoder and you still only get 4 channels. But the decoder knows what to do with those channels.

Dreamaster said:

Beber said:

Actually, it appears to me that it will not be that simple to keep an audio track in sync, since there are a couple of differences with Despecialized 2.0. Remember Harmy had to delete one frame at the reel change near the end of the movie (between Vader falling down and Luke following him to a circle hatch opening) in order to keep Hairy_Hen’s audio in sync. Also, there was an extra frame in the beginning in DE 2.0 that required a +42 ms offset.

This release may fall out of sync by 1 frame here and there but overall it’s unnoticable. The audio track used for this release was the high rez stereo option from Harmy’s Despecialized.

One of my side projects is to find out which version of the OOT is the most complete. I think the US GOUT is missing some frames. I know A New Hope is missing one frame the end of reel 5 - not enough to notice any sync issues. I have not checked TESB or ROTJ yet. Right now I’m working on the 97 SE - trying to create a good master and account for missing frames by using 3 versions of the SE (or 4 in the case of ANH and I’m also doing TMP because I have two sources for that) and comparing them to the GOUT and BR. Then I’m going to compare some of the LD releases (including the 93 De), the US GOUT, the UK GOUT (which I suspect is the most complete version based on a few things I’ve seen so far) the SE, and the BR (probably not the DVD as it is essentially the same). I’ll make a new thread if I ever get around to finishing the comparison. But 1 frame here and there doesn’t affect the perception of syncing. Some of these films have lines that are already more out of sync than that. Yet knowing which version is the most complete to use as a master for syncing would be a nice thing.

Precisely whey the delay is for playback hardware only. If you don’t have the surround speakers, you don’t want the front sounds to have an echo. The 15-35 millisecond delay is for the hardware to handle. The surround channels shouldn’t have any delay built in unless you are going for an exaggerated delay effect. That has the added benefit of any crosstalk getting absorbed back into the front sound and not being noticeable. The only time the delay comes into effect is when the surround channels are sent to the speakers. The delay needs to be customizable to fit the playback space.

The theater where I saw the OT is still standing and is still a theater (last time I was in my old home town which was a few years ago). The local theater where I’m told Star Wars played back in 1977 is still standing, but is no longer a theater.

hairy_hen said:

That’s an interesting case. You can try it both ways and see what sounds better. I tried to make them sound listenable when downmixed, since I knew it would be inevitable that it would be heard that way in some cases. My assertion that the stereo mix is preferable for two-channel systems is more of a strong recommendation than an absolute “NO YOU CAN’T DO THAT!” sort of thing. 😉

The main issue when downmixing is that the rear channels contain crosstalk from the front, and are delayed in time compared to the front channels. Inevitably, this results in comb filtering due to not being time-aligned with the front when the channels are recombined into stereo again. I tried to minimize it, but couldn’t eliminate it completely. This will be most noticeable in the first movie, less so in the other two. If you don’t find this to be an issue, then playing the 5.1 on a 3.1 system would certainly still provide a benefit, since you’ll still get the dynamics and extra bass, just not the surroundy-ness. The stereo mix is rather less dynamic and doesn’t have much bass, so on a more powerful sound system it may seem somewhat muted in comparison.

In the next version (assuming again that I have time to do a next version), I’m hoping that this downmixing problem will be much less of an issue.

Why are they time delayed? The time delay is supposed to be set in the playback hardware (either a specific time or calculated from the distance between speakers). It is supposed to be seamless whether it is matrix or discreet.

SilverWook said:

TNG episodes had to be completely rebuilt from scratch. The cost of scanning all 12 seasons of MASH really ought not to cost as much. Unless the film elements are in bad shape.

They rescanned in it HD when they made the master for the DVD collection. They could rescan it in 4k, if there would be a quality improvment, but I think the 1440x1080 HD is probably good enough.

So I see now what my ideal edit of TFA would include. Edit the escape from Jakku to include the Falcon jumping to hyperspace and then engine failure makes it fall back to real space. Change some dialog and some FX. Remove the destruction of the Hosnian system and have the people of Takodana look up to see a Star Destroyer. Insert scene of Leia and her messenger to the Republic. Move the destruction of the Hosnian system to the end when Han is killed. I can live with everything else, but that might make this one awesome movie. Depening on how Episode VII starts, I might cut the TFA when the Falcon departs to find Luke. If so I might want to change Rey’s vision and have luke’s face appear.

Wazzles said:

TV’s Frink said:

Wazzles said:

dahmage said:

Wazzles said:

yotsuya said:

Disco_Lobot said:

I laugh at people buying 4K TVs… your eyes are almost certainly not good enough to tell the difference in the vast majority of viewing scenarios. Total waste of money

http://bgr.com/2015/09/18/720p-vs-1080p-vs-4k-resolution/

If we were just talking about the absolute resolution, you are right. At my normal viewing distance I can’t tell the difference between 720 and 1080. I’m certainly not going to see much improvement from a 4k screen. But it isn’t just the resolution. The more pixels you have to display the image data, the better the image looks. The pixels start to disappear and be truly invisible. I’ve known this about printing for years, but when you apply it to video, it really helps the realism of the image, even if you are watching a 480 DVD. With the proper hardware, everything will look better on a 4k screen, even if you never get a UHD player or media.

My dad has a 43 inch 4K TV and DVDs look horrendous.

Often, if you turn off all that image enhacent crap, lower quality sources like dvd actually look better. I have a 51" 1080p plasma tv, and i think DVD’s look pretty damn good if they were authored at high bitrate. a bit soft, but good.

I have a 40 inch 1080p and DVDs look great unless I’m directly comparing them to Blu Rays. I honestly believe that 4k as a resolution is simply too high for a TV.

4k content looks better on my 40" 4k tv than 1080p. But then again, DVD is obviously poorer-looking even when not comparing directly to a Blu-ray, so…

[shrug]

That’s why I think 1080p hits a sweet spot for TV resolutions. This is especially true if you watch older TV series (or really made before the mid 2000’s), which look bad already. I have not attempted to watch something like MASH or The Simpsons on a 4k TV, but I wouldn’t anticipate good results.I think we have a ways to go before upscaling technology is good enough to make these palatable on a 4k screen.

MASH was shot on film, so it should look good at higher resolutions.

Hagdorm said:

Wow, you’re really committed to the 81 crawl. I like that a lot, because it’s what I grew up seeing, and it helps the film stay connected to all the other episodes (yes, even the prequels - I’m not as critical of them as some, but they’re definitely not my favorites). I assume this will be 1080p when completed?

Yes, I’m trying to match it in quality to the work Williarob is doing on his 35 mm restoration. It should exceed it in some ways. I still have to tweak the edge of the Star Destroyer a bit. My draft was ok, my last pass was much better, but I need to tackle it again to get closer (and hopefully to a final state). That is really the last thing I’m working on. I’m trying to decide on whether to feather out the edge more, lighten it, or (in the case of the Blockade Runner) bring the other element in front and feather that.