yotsuya

bilditup1 said:

Hmm. I guess these would be nice to fix? But these continuity errors never bothered me. I suppose as long as we have the original, error-filled ones I wouldn't care if he fixed them.

I feel that if he is going to tinker and "make them better" he needs to fix the continuity errors as they have more impact than R2 hiding behind a rock, a scene I never heard anyone complain about. That shot is just ridiculous.

Bingowings said:

The Throne Room ceiling is still missing from this shot.

If you up the gamma on that shot, you will notice that the space isn't black for a missing ceiling. It has texture. There was something there so nothing is missing.

I think the primary thing is to first preserve this LD edition as it is. Second, use it to create a presentation for those of us who love the movie in multiple ways. I love to watch the original 1977 with the mono soundtrack and the Episode IV way with the 95 Faces THX soundtrack. Some would like the 1977 stereo or the 1977 recreated 6-track. The rebellion collection version is a stellar example of what all to include. They have this all on one disc. It is perfect except for the horrible flaws in the GOUT dvd it is taken from.

As I mentioned on another thread, if you take a clean LD version, like this, and layer it (which requires some resizing) with the GOUT, you might be able to enhance the image to be far superior to the GOUT or any LD capture. I would love to see someone try it.

I was only thinking the PAL LD's because of the frame preservation. I was playing with the JSC screen caps on the first page. It's all about what yields the best image when you are done.

I've been trying to find out how the GOUT was made. It is visually much cleaner that the LD's, but it has weird motion flaws. For a while I thought I knew why it was like that, but it turns out I am still in the dark. The GOUT appears to be 23.9 fps.

What we need is a way to fix the damage frames, but there are so many of them. It seems a daunting task. If there was way to use one of the LD captures to enhance the GOUT, we might be able to clean it up in a fairly automated way. I'd say a PAL ld would be the best option, especially if it was transferred frame for frame (which speeds it up, but preserves the frames). I'm more of a photoshop person, so I really don't know what you can do with video, but I could do it with stills.

One thing I have noticed is that the so called 4 eyed stormtrooper really doesn't have 4 eyes. Right above the eyes is a black band on the stomtrooper helmets. What appears to be happening is that the white from below is smearing up and obscuring the middle of the black band and it looks like 4 eyes.

I played with layering the images on the first page and this is what I came up with.

While it works on these two images, I'm not sure it would work for the entire film. It could also end up cropping the image, but I have a way around that, at least with photos.

I think we all want the same thing - the perfect copy of the original original trilogy to watch. Each of us has our own level of expectations and when they are not met, in however small a way, it detracts from our experience. The "nitpicking" here pales in comparison to what we all have to say about what Lucasfilm has given us to work with.

As for what I keep seeing (and to put this in perspective I've seen it on all 3 of the TV's I've had since the 2004 DVD came out - each one has been color adjusted to match the THX setting configuration test), I don't have a screen capture utility on this PC, so I had to use my camera. The upper image is from your version. The lower image is from the Rebellion Collection GOUT. I color corrected the sand in the GOUT to match your version along the left side and then upped the saturation. This is more extreme than what I usually see, but I think it gets across how annoying I find it.

Harmy said:

Sorry, I didn't mean to sound so defensive. But I'm just not seeing it. The Tatooine matte doesn't seem any different from the original and I don't see any green blob in the scene you mention, it looks exactly the same as the original to me (save for the stronger saturation, which is present throughout the whole edit, because GOUT is very undersaturated).

Here are both shots in comparison:...I really don't see much difference. The matte painting is definitely the same as the original and I don't see any green area in the other shot. Or did you mean a different one?

It is your hard work, you have every right to be defensive.

You are right about the planet shot. I guess I just caught the color difference - it's darker than the other instances.

But if you watch The LD Capture (I believe mine is the TR-47) and the GOUT and pay attention to the last frames when C-3PO raises his arm and the sand underneath is connected, it is very obvious that there is color change in the 2004 DVD and not the others. They did some weird things in their color correcting and this is one place where they really screwed it up. It's obvious from the nature of the glitch that they had some sort of selection to color correct C-3PO and didn't omit the area of sand under his arm. It is very obvious on my Sony LCD HDTV. It looks almost looks like a patch of grass.

Finding this thread just saved me from my desire to get the PAL dvd's... I guess if I have the NTSC dvd's of the GOUT, that I have the best I can buy... I'm working on finding the best I can get.

One suggestion I have for maximizing quality when converting the NTSC 4:3 image to a 16:9 image is to over size it. Convert the 720x480 image to 1440x960 before enhancing or cropping it. I noticed that some of the finer details visible in the GOUT DVD vanished in Moth3r's enhanced version. (the lines on R2's back). I've had good luck with this when enhancing photos and a movie is just a series of photos.

The issues you bring up are so minor, that I wouldn't be doing anything about them even if I was to make a new version. In fact I'm not even sure they are actual issues (005, msycamore?).

Like I said, I find that flaw in color (only from the 2004 DVD version, not found on any previous sources that I have) next to C-3PO, to be very noticeable and very distracting. That is one of the major flaws that makes me want to take that 2004 DVD and throw it on the train tracks to be pulverized. You wonderfully fixed all the others, I'm just kind of curious why you left that one when lifting that scene from the same sources you so marvelously lifted the Mos Eisley scenes, or Ben's hut, would put it back to how it should be.

You have done marvelous work - work I do not have the time or Talent to do. But some things just stand out and that green blob takes me out of the film more than any of GL's 1977 era production gaffs do.

I really don't care about what version of Tatooine is seen, but I wanted to point out that the one doesn't match the others.

Glad to hear what soundtrack that is. It is very similar in many ways to the 1977 stereo - certain missing lines and such. That is actually the first time I have ever heard the 6 track version.

You have created a version of this film that I can actually watch and enjoy and not want to yank the disc out of the player and destroy it. Thank you. It is practically perfect.

I downloaded it and just finished watching it and I have a couple of critical comments. (I watched the DVD version)

First, overall it was a far better viewing experience than watching the 2004 DVD edition. The colors look normal and it feels like the Star Wars I've always wanted on DVD. And it is anamorphic like it should be unlike the 2006 DVD.

That said, there are two glitches at the beginning. The CG Tatooine was restored with the matte painting Tatooine except for where the escape pod is headed for the surface. Second, the 2004 DVD has a serious color correction error that has not been fixed. When C-3PO is standing in front of the giant snake skeleton, the area under his right arm is green. It is supposed to match the sand in color and does in all the other VHS and LD versions and the 2006 DVD.

A couple of minor points - several of the shots of Luke on Tatooine (especially the one where he find Owen and Beru) look washed out and gray.

I was also disappointed that the fixed lightsabers during the duel had been unfixed, but that is a personal preference. At least Anakin/Luke's saber was blue! That is probably one of the single most annoying things about the 2004 DVD.

As far as the soundtrack, I was disappointed that it was the 2006 DVD stereo track, not the 1977 mono or the 1993 VHS/LD surround. Even Ben Burt has commented that the original 1977 stereo track wasn't done very well (and he did it).

PrivateFubar, your avatar image really fits what you said.

I've posted on a lot of forums, and the nature of forums is digression and discussion of related topics. Threads typically are closed when there is as much inactivity as this on has had.

I fail to see why this thread is being held to a higher standard than the generally accepted standard of online forums.

If we had something to go on, we might be able to carry on a conversation and stay so narrowly on topic, but at this point it is a matter of posting on closely related material or letting this thread die. I see no issue with continuing conversations that continue to relate to the Blade Runner Soundtrack, even if it isn't focuspuller's.

For instance, I think it would be nice to have a discussion about the various versions and source material for the theatrical main title sequence and how it came about and ended up as it has. I can see that it has two sections to it, the bombastic notes that accompany the blackness and the melodic section that accompanies the city flyover. The second section was reused later in the film as the second spinner liftoff. That section I know of 4 sources for, the movie, the official soundtrack, the OWM bootleg, and the mysterious Outtakes Suite. For the bombastic first section, the only source I know of is the movie itself.

I would agree with the level of frustration. This is proving a long time to wait with no samples of the completed tracks being offered. I do not agree that the 2019 is definitive. There are a huge variety of sources out there and Focuspuller is attempting to use everything out there to restore the tracks to what they were when Vangelis recorded them. I may disagree with him on several editing points and several comments he has made, but he is attempting to do something truly unique. I've done a fair share of audio editing for myself and to do it right it requires a lot of time. It can take an hour to properly line up, time, and digitally splice two segments together so that only an expert can hear the splice. It's hard work. When you have a job and a new child, and a life outside of your Bladerunner addiction, it can be hard to find the time to work on those edits and fulfill all your commitments. I'm not really expecting much progress, but Focuspuller did indicate that he would try to release some samples, but that has been ages ago. Some of the more difficult ones that are completed would be the ones I'd want to hear first.

1187hunterwasser said:

- LOOKING FOR SNAKE MAKER
- CHINATOWN CLUB
- ORIENTAL MUSIC ON TELEVISION
- ZORA TRIES TO KILL DECKARD
- ROY KILLS TYRELL & SEBASTIAN
- OUTSIDE THE BUILDING
- DECKARD ENTERS SEBASTIAN'S BUILDING
- ROY STABS HIS OWN HAND
- WHERE ARE YOU GOING

Thank you for putting that together. I think we all know the music, just by different titles. I'm not so sure about Oriental Music On Television. Could it be one of the blimp songs? I would be curious to hear what Focuspuller can make of this.

1187hunterwasser said:

By the way, although probably everybody here knows this link already, I think it's interesting because it put the right titles on the unreleased BR tracks:

http://repertoire.bmi.com/writer.asp?blnWriter=True&blnPublisher=True&blnArtist=True&page=1&fromrow=1&torow=25&querytype=WriterID&keyid=259951&keyname=PAPATHANASSIOU%20EVANGHELOS&CAE=54407690&Affiliation=BUMA

If this direct link doesn't work, search PAPATHANASSIOU EVANGHELOS from http://www.bmi.com

This is nice information, but it is quite jumbled and contains several things that are not BR related. "Change We Must" and "Come To Me" stand out plus the El Greco tracks. So I'm not really sure that the titles are indicative of what the Missing BR tracks might be called. Most of the titles are straight off the 3 cd set and the titles on Disc 3 are tracks created and titled specifically for that release. It is very interesting, but I'm not sure how useful it is.

1187hunterwasser, teriweigel may be right. In listening to the DVD audio to see if I could extract anything better (and failing usually), I think some of the sound effects are syth and could be by Vangelis. I'm not saying he is right, just that he could be. Not everything in a film happens exactly as credited.

I concur ABC, it is better to do it right the first time. But samples of works in progress are also nice.

I'm really tired of 20 versions of the same tracks with updating versions (this goes for SW as well as Blade runner) making it a nightmare, wondering which version is best/most complete/most accurate.

I may have previously expressed my opinions about some decision our host has related, but I am none the less anxious to hear what he has done because, from the descriptions he has posted here, he is truly doing something that will be completely different. As opposed to the multitude of 'Esper Editions' (real or fake) that are floating around and really don't differ much at all musically. I noticed the same thing recently with the various Revenge of the Sith 'Extended' scores. I am rather picky about my music, especially when it is so dear to me as Vangelis or John Williams.

I hope Fucuspuller can get back to this project in the near future, but he has one of the best excuses possible for the current delay, however long it might be. No real rush. Some of us have been waiting 27 years for the music he has hinted at.

(p.s. sorry, don't know why I always seem to be so long winded for simple posts)

Congratulations on the addition, Focuspuller!

On the other topic, I truly have nothing more to say. I read the responses and I don't appreciate name calling. While I liked seeing someone side with me, I don't want to be associated with someone who pops in to deliver scathing comments and insults.

I think people who resort to name calling need to grow up.

Cassius76 said:

Wow!  We have our first .. well.. I don't know quite what to say about "yotsuya".  It's quite odd for someone to just pop up into a thread and start advertising other sites and putting down someone's project.. isn't that called "troll spamming?"

Just poping up on a thread? I've been here for quite some time, drawn by my love of Vangelis and Blade Runner. Any comments I have made are in reaction to comments made by others that bear a striking resemblance to what I have to deal with at work. I once was a bit sluggish to say things, but in my current line of work I have come to call people to task for things that they say or post. Just because we are in awe of someone's audio editing talents does not mean I will ingore innapropriate comments.

"Troll Spamming" would be if I had come her for the specific purpose of arguing. I am here for the specific reason of hearing the final creation. I try to be as tactful as I can but I do not appreciate being ignored when I ask a simple why or how question and I will call someone for saying something that comes across as rude. In his reply, Focuspuller stated what he should have said the first time. My job would have been complete but now you seem to want to attack me personally. So be it.

focuspuller said:

You need to take this nonsense elsewhere. This thread (within the greater forum of discussing fan edits and restorations) is about this project, and this project in particular. You can think and feel what you like, discuss what you like, but if it doesn't relate to this project then take it elsewhere. I don't get what is so hard to understand. Any forum or fan related to Vangelis or Blade Runner is great, I've said that many times before. But you need to show an amount of respect to the purpose of this specific thread. If you can't do that, and what you want isn't here then look for it elsewhere. As to what I'm doing, I've explained it within reason. I don't "claim" anything beyond what I have already stated. As for my "editing choices", since I haven't released this yet you'll to wait before you can tell me you hate it, but don't worry, you'll get your chance.

You clearly have your opinions about what you like. That bieng the case, I don't understand your need for posting beyond bashing this project, which is all you seem to want to do given the tone of your other posts. If you want to stay and are interested in what I am trying to offer with this project then great. The fact that you are here, and are posting at all (dispite the nature) tells me that you are. Otherwise, I don't know what else to say beyond what I have already said.

 

 

 

I quite understand that, but that was not the tone of your post. Your tone was putting down all other bootlegs and acting like yours is not another bootleg (even as close as you may get to the original). That's why I said I felt like I was in the twilight zone because the tone of your post was so contrary to the nature of your project. I am eagerly awaiting its release, but I do have reservations about some of the choices you have made. I'm sure they will be resolved one way or another when I hear your final product.

This is the comment that set me off:

"Part of the point of this project is to do away with any and all such bootlegs (bieng sold or otherwise)."

You should be more careful about making such comments. It has a very arrogant sounding tone and is inconsiderate of other people's hard work. You are not the only one who is trying to recreate Vangelis' full original score. I have great respect for all of you who can make such seemless edits from many sources.

I feel like I've just walked into the twilight zone. Here we are on a forum discussing what is in reality a bootleg collection and we critizice the previous bootlegs and say we want to do away with them. That is a bit hipocritical, don't ya think. Unless you are Vangelis himself, this is a bootleg project, the same (in all legal ways) as any other bootleg of the Blade Runner soundtrack. Don't play all high and mighty because you claim to be doing a restoration. All you are doing is taking bootlegs to another level by claiming it is a restoration. Some of your editing choices indicate a personal preference on your part that, unless you are in posession of the original master tapes (or copies thereof), you cannot justify some of you editing choices.

There are many bootlegs out there of blade runner, but some recent ones have been quiet stellar. I would much prefer the recent bootlegs by Sebastian, Vincente or GreyFedora than music that suffers from merging of tracks that shouldn't be. I don't know what sources these guys use, but they have tracks that are quiet clean and nice, particularly the music from Taffy's bar.

I'd recommend going to Yahoo and finding the Blade Runner Sondtrack group and request admission. They share some interesting music in flac and mp3 and they have better versions of the music from Taffy's bar than I have heard elsewhere.

I find it interesting that no one sees how devious and slimy Palpatine is from the moment we meet him. He is orchestrating nearly everything from the first scene of Episode I until he underestimates Vader/Anakin's ties to Luke in Episode VI. For instance the apparently badly acted scene where Palpatine begs Amidala not to go back to Naboo is Palpatine being insincere. Palpatine wants her to go and might even be using the force to make sure things happen his way.

Anakin is portrayed as very similar to Luke (whiny kids must be common on Tatooine) except that Anakin's speech pattern (which is so often criticized as bad acting) oddly matches Vader's speech patterns.

I would have loved to see more character development from Anakin. I was very disappointed Lucas chose to start the story with a child Anakin and things just went downhill from there. I think there are enough pieces shown in Ep2 & 3 that they could be edited to make a stronger character development. There should have been more after his mother dies and more love with Padme so his sense of betrayal is stronger. And there's a lot that could be cut to reduce his whiny and annoying nature.

I can see what Lucas was trying to do, but I don't think he pulled it off quiet as well he should. In some ways there is too much to the prequels yet not enough story. Being a fan of classic movies, I don't think I find the prequels as objectionable as other people do.

A question for you Focuspuller,

Just how are you sure that Unicorn is taken from Antactica? I have heard two other tracks in Blade Runner that have close sound to tracks in Antarctica and The Bounty, but they are not necessarily the same recordings. Both of which are certainly recorded for Blade Runner if they were used in the other movies. I have heard a bit from one bootleg (I have Antarctica on DVD, but I haven't watched it recently) that does sound like the Unicorn music, but considering the editing history of Blade Runner and how it was finished (not by Scott but by the studio), how do we know that the Unicorn track was not part of the the final batch of music Vangelis delivered for the movie and that he didn't just reuse the sounds in Antarctica? I mean, one of the tracks delivered between the Work Print and the Theatrical Release was the Deckard & Roy Duel/Wounded Animals which includes the Antarctica theme as Roy says goodbye to Pris. And in the behind the senes information on the DVD release they definitively say that the Unicorn scene was shot as part of the original production so it could have been scored before it was axed. I'm just wondering, other than musical similarity, what you base using the music as heard in Antarctica as part of the Blade Runner soundtrack?

Just to remind you (and in it is particularly evident with "Unveiled Twinkling Space" and how it appears on the soundtrack vs how it appears in the film) the sound editors on a movie frequently adjust the music and other sounds to match the final edit of a scene. What you hear in the movie is doubtfully how the original track sounded on the tapes that Vangelis delivered.

And also a reminder that the technology at that time was usually audio tape. To adjust the length of a track meant that you adjusted the speed and therefore the pitch. While it is true that digital audio was available (Star Trek: The Motion Picture was the first movie to be shot and edited with digital sound in 1979), it was still very expensive and high tech. Also, according to the codes on the Vangelis' albums from the 80's, he was using analog tape for his recordings at least through 1986 when he recorded Invisible Connections.

So when you consider how best to present Vangelis' music for Blade Runner, it is best to match the Soundtrack releases as they are at the speed he intended them to be when they were recorded. The change in pitch is just a cutting room edit like cutting the length or adding distortion to make the music sound like it is in the background.

Focuspuller is trying to give us a recreation of the original studio recordings which means reversing all the edits the sound editors made to the music. Not an easy thing for some of the music.

TheInfiniteIconZ. said:

focuspuller said:

No, it's Taffy's as in the music played in Taffy Lewis' bar. It comes on after Deckard hangs up the phone.

 

 

I see which one you're talking about.

Just for the record, there are two source cues used in Taffy Lewis's bar, one has vocals courtesy of Demis Roussos (heard when Deckard first enters the club), and the other does not (heard when Deckard is hung up on the phone).

I rather like the second one, wish we had a complete clean ending for it.

The second one was part of a mp3 file that has been available on occasion called Blade Runner Suite - Outtakes. It is 30 minutes of source material including the track in question, which is elsewhere called Salome's Dance, at 1:39. In the movie this track starts when the announcer introduces Salome (aka Zhora) and continues through until Zhora's dressing room (after Deckard goes backstage it is easy to miss among the other sounds). It probably is just looped to fit that length. The format of the track makes it easy to loop it endlessly.

Is there anyway to get a preview of what you've already done. I'm very interested in hearing what you've done with several of my favorite tracks that I have never been able to find a satisfactory copy of. Particularly "Deckard Meets Rachel" and "Tears In Rain" (aka "Farewell"). And I'll definitely want a copy of the finished product. And if you need anyone to preview it, I have a good ear and can give you an honest report on the quality of you finished work. The sample tracks you have made available indicate you are doing an excellent job.