yotsuya

DrDre said:

Collipso said:
Like Mithrandir said several pages ago, what RJ did with Luke was possibly the best way to go given what was setup in VII. The only thing I still disagree with RJ is that I don’t think Luke would ever even consider murdering Ben in his sleep, nor that it’d be something or some kind of instinct that would pass like a fleeting shadow.

I don’t completely agree. Han said in TFA, that Luke went looking for the First Jedi Temple. This in my view implies two things:

1. The location of the First Jedi Temple was unknown, and it may have taken Luke quite a while to find it.
2. Luke went there for a reason.

Then theres are these lines in the TFA screenplay, which describe my sense of the final scenes of TFA pretty well:

“Older now, white hair, bearded. He looks at Rey. A kindness in his eyes, but there’s something tortured, too. He doesn’t need to ask her who she is, or what she is doing here. His look says it all.”

So, I always assumed Luke went looking for the First Jedi Temple to find some answers for how to deal with his failed attempt to rebuild the Jedi Order. While there he discovers Rey may have an important role to play in the future of the Jedi amongst other things, and knows she will come to find him, when the time is right. This is why Luke stands there in ceremonial Jedi robes. The master is waiting for the student.

I’m convinced JJ had a very different idea in mind, when he filmed that final scene.

One reason I hate the scene in TFA. Other than showing Luke, it serves no purpose to the story. Finding the map was a good ending. They find the map and Rey leaves to find him. Sticking that scene in there without any resolution was a dumb move. Unless Abrams was doing the next one, the purpose of that scene cannot be determined from any TFA source. It has no ending so what Abrams intended is of no importance. We’ve spent two years trying to dissect it for meaning and RJ had a different vision and there is nothing in the scene as filmed that contradicts the direction RJ took it. You can look to the screenplay for Abrams intentions, but those intentions did not end up on screen. Neither did the floating rocks.

Having seen the film four times and having read a lot of opinions, I think I see some of the problem. Rian wrote Kylo too well. And while his words failed to convince Rey, they seem to have convinced some members of the audience. Kylo is trying to destroy the past. That is his thing. That is not the story that RJ gave us.

TLJ is a mirror of TESB. It is in a different time and setting and the purpose of the story is very different. TESB was a personal journey for the characters while the Rebellion, having successfully escaped Hoth, rendezvoused and regrouped, untouched by the Empire. TLJ sees the Resistance flee the FO only to be followed, hounded, and nearly annihilated. But we still get the same journey for our characters. In both cases it is of personal growth. In TESB, Luke is trained by Yoda and Han and Leia finally admit their feelings. In TLJ, Rey seeks training form Luke, only to find him unwilling, so she takes what little he had offered her and the ancient texts. But she got to him and her actions bring Luke to help the Resistance in their time of need. Luke distracts while Rey rescues. Poe learns how to be a leader instead of just a foolhardy hero. Finn grows form someone always wanted to run to someone now willing to stand and fight. Neither movie takes the wider conflict any further. The FO had destroyed two Resistance bases and reduced the their number, but not their message, and the Resistance has destroyed two of the FO’s largest ships.

The question is, what’s next. We now know that Abrams and RJ coordinated some between TFA and TLJ. The screenplay for TLJ was already written before TFA was finished and led to some edits to TFA. And given that Abrams had a TV background, I think we can assume that they are telling a coordinated story. There was a story for IX. No idea what direction it will take now that Carrie has left us. Will Abrams junk it or just rework it? Who knows. But at the end of TESB we are left with Han frozen and the rebellion baseless. In TLJ we are left with the characters intact but the Resistance in shambles, but with hope. But in TESB, we have a galaxy wide Empire that is strong and unwavering. In TLJ, we have a First Order just beginning its conquest, not yet cemented or truly in power yet. The crawl uses the word reigns, but I take that to mean there is no force to oppose them rather than they have actually taken over anything and the rest of the text of the crawl agrees with that as does the movie dialog. It also provides a reason why Leia’s call was not answered. But the final scene in the stable shows that Luke had again brought hope and if word has reached Canto Bight, it will spread across the galaxy and give courage to those who want to resist the First Order’s conquest.

I think that rather than deconstructing the mythology, this movie is just forwarding the mythology in a different way. RJ had an ending setup for IX. This was leading somewhere and he didn’t let Carrie’s passing change this story because I believe he knew how to rework the ending. The other director did not want to so Abrams came back. With his background in TV, and teams of writers and working on series that can introduce new twists, I bet they have something in mind for the IX finale. It may not be quite what RJ had in mind, but if they handed Abrams and ending and he sticks with it, it could be one hell of a movie. And I think at that point the mythology side of this trilogy will be obvious. The OT wasn’t a story of redemption until ROTJ. We are in the middle of this trilogy and I doubt we can see where it is going so jumping to conclusion such as deconstructing or resetting, is probably a bit premature. This was the setup the the saga finale. Seeing it as anything else is, in my mind, an unjustified misinterpretation.

adywan said:

Valheru_84 said:

All this Yoda calling lighting justification talk sounds to me like mental gymnastics 101. Yoda somehow via the force either creating, influencing, directing, etc. the lightning in TLJ just doesn’t sit right with me whatever the reasoning. Pre-ST force ghosts could not affect the physical world. Suddenly in the ST they can directly influence the force back in the real world.

Sorry but I don’t buy it anymore than I bought the ugly Yoda puppet. I also didn’t buy “crazy yoda” as he wasn’t crazy or unhinged in the OT, just a little eccentric and put on a crazy act to either test Luke in TESB or make himself seem harmless while checking out who this stranger was that just crash landed in his backyard.

Val

Yoda was joking around even when he was dying in ROTJ. He always had a jovial side. Something the PT completely got rid of with grumpy frowning Yoda. TLJ Yoda was the same Yoda we see in the OT.

I think him being on the Jedi Council and having the weight of the galaxy on his shoulders accounts for that. But in the scene with the younglings in ATOC, he did seem more jovial and more like the TESB and ROTJ Yoda.

And OT Force ghosts could interact physically with the real world, so why can’t they also use the force? Or is it just because it’s been introduced in the ST that’s the problem?

Obi-wan sat, brushed bushes, and acted substantial though he was very transparent. There was nothing there to indicate that they couldn’t connect to the force and do things. They didn’t. But it was never established that they couldn’t.

SilverWook said:

Which one of us gets the gold medal and the Wheaties cereal box contract then? 😛

I see Yoda as always having had a mischievous side he had to keep in check being a proper Jedi master. He doesn’t have to be super serious all the time anymore. Being dead for 30 years is probably liberating. He could also be laughing because he knows the books aren’t even in the tree? Perhaps Frank Oz will chime in one of these days about it. He’s been fairly protective of Yoda.

And I think when the Yoda puppet is eventually seen in behind the scenes photos, it will become clear it’s the lighting that makes him look odd in certain shots.

I think he looks younger. I think it is a lead in to Ewan or Hayden making an appearance as Obi-wan or Anakin. definitely a better puppet than that horror in TPM.

And if the force is part of nature and Yoda is a force ghost, why should he not be able to affect things? That makes no logical sense with what we know of the force. Yoda triggering a lightning bolt to hit the tree seems like a very natural offshoot of his explanation of the force in TESB. I’m with Silverwook. I had no problems with it.

And one possible explanation (which the movie hints at but doesn’t state) is that Luke could have uncovered some lost skills. The force ghosts could have as well. Luke has access to the ancient texts. How? This is the first Jedi Temple. We never heard of that before. It is a given that every new story could introduce new aspects that we haven’t seen before. We get new planets. Why isn’t anyone asking why we’ve never been to Crait before? It might have been convenient at some point. What made TLJ for me was the new things. That seems to be what ruined it for others.

Warbler said:

Mrebo said:

Warbler said:

Mrebo said:

Warbler said:

adywan said:

Warbler said:

adywan said:

Warbler said:

2. the minor interaction with surroundings we see in ROTJ don’t matter near as much as finding out that force ghost Obiwan and Yoda maybe could have appeared before the Emperor and Vader and zapped them.

But Yoda didn’t just zap the tree out of thin air like the force lighting the Emperor uses. This has already been explained to you.

Whatever you want to call it, it sure would have been nice if had used it on the Emperor in ROTJ after Yoda died.

Please point me to the scene in the Emperors throne room where there were storm clouds over head so we could have had the same lightning and then i’d agree with you.

He needs storm clouds? That is never explained. What if in a future movie a force user does it without storm clouds, then can I ask why force ghost Yoda doesn’t zap the Emperor in ROTJ?

The point is that we can draw these inferences about what we did see. We don’t need to exactly pin it down. Does the idea that Yoda could influence the path of lightning bother you?

no. However if it would have been convenient to influence the path of lightning at some point in the OT and he didn’t, that would bother me.

Lets say in some future movie, force users can force transport themselves wherever they want. Now, wouldn’t you then question why Obiwan didn’t do this in TPM and get past the shield in the Maul fight?

Obviously.

As others have said, we can infer that Yoda simply affected the path of the lightning. If Yoda did show up in Snoke’s thrown room and start pulling lightning down…well then I’d agree with you. But what actually happened in this film was far more constrained than that.

maybe, but the movie never says he needs storm clouds.

It doesn’t have to. The lightening comes from the cloud, not his hand. Therefore per the film and canon, it shows Yoda manipulating the weather not using force lightening. No further explanation is necessary. Asking for more is being unreasonable.

Since when did movies have to start explaining everything? I don’t get that. Even books don’t. You explain what you need to get across the main points. Why can’t movies make you think? Leave things out and make you wonder? And just why does one force user doing something in one movie mean that no one has ever been able to do that before. that stagnates things. Lucas gave us new force powers in nearly every film. In Episode I, Qui-gon and Obi-wan run super fast. Why can’t they do that in the OT? Yikes, a mistake. Sorry, this is just a bit ridiculous. Any ongoing franchise is a living thing that grows and changes as each new installment comes out. With luck, the new ones enhance the old ones. But this idea that we’ve seen it before so these new films must follow those rules exactly is very funny to me. If you take that back far enough it means that we should have seen everything the force could do in ANH. Because everything since then had changed things. Oh my.

So here’s a big one that was never explained in the movies. How is Leia a princess?

Collipso said:

It really seemed like Finn was more than able to destroy the cannon to me. He was still going relatively fast in the cannon’s direction, while all the others turned back, which it in itself is a plot hole (how did Rose even get to him?) and something I noticed upon first viewing.

If the beam is strong enough to crumple his guns, it’s probably strong enough to slow him down. That would increase the doubt that he was actually going to do any damage and increase the likelihood that Rose could catch him and stop him. But aside from that Finn also is not an expert pilot he had to be told how to operate this thing and he probably isn’t flying as fast as the little skied thing can go.

Mrebo said:

I think it says something that basic plot points are unclear, like how were they going to destroy the gun. Get really close and shoot it is one possibility. But then I’m not sure how much sense that makes either: let’s fly out on barely functional crafts with limited maneuverability to a bunch of AT-ATs and a big gun and hope it doesn’t fire until we are really close so we can shoot at it. (inb4: it was just like the Death Star trench)

I think it was an act of desperation and Poe didn’t see how futile it was until they were actually doing it. Finn doesn’t have Poe’s experience and we are then shown his craft disintegrating to show that Poe was right and Finn is about to toss his life away on aplan that won’t work. He isn’t even close and he is already in trouble. Rose, again, prevents him from making a stupid mistake. I never once thought he stood a chance but it was in character for Finn to try something like that. TFA had Rey to try to keep him in line and TLJ puts Rose in that role.

Ryan said:

liamnotneeson said:

Sougouk said:

Damn. I accidentally clicked the Post button, instead of the next page button.

I wonder what JJ Abrams is going to do for the 3rd movie. I hope we see more of R2D2 & Chewbacca.

Apparently JJ has said he wants to bring all three trilogies together. I hope that’s true, because even if X does come out I’m going to deny its existence and IX will be my last episode. Plus, I hope to see more prequels since we haven’t gotten more than a few references in a line or two in each movie so far

I think JJ is going to retcon what Rian did. It seemed like Rian just threw everything JJ had setup.

I doubt that. JJ has a TV background so I’m sure he’ll just continue the story to the end. I pray they already have an end because JJ can’t make one to save his life. This movie felt very much like it was leading to a resolution.

Collipso said:

DominicCobb said:

ExNihilo said:

DominicCobb said:

Even if Finn makes it, in a melted skimmer I can’t see how that’d do much.

And I meant there are other ways to blow open that big ass door, I’m sure.

It looked like just peripheries like the guns. Fuselage was intact just prior to Rose’s interception.
They are practically at the mouth of the cannon. I have trouble buying he wasn’t going to make it or he wasn’t going to do much damage.

I guess this really does come down to individual perception. I just didn’t see it the same way you did.

Well obviously the reaction says they could have made this clearer, as many people have misinterpreted the scene. I took it, when Poe called it off as a “suicide mission,” that it wasn’t worth it, and that’s all I needed to know and the rest could easily be assumed without being stated outright.

I feel like you shouldn’t act as if you’re 100% right and everyone else is wrong. What if you’re the one that misinterpreted it? (I’m not saying that’s the case here)

Some things are normal movie storytelling shortcuts and really need no further explanation. I really don’t think that you can assume you got it all in one viewing. Even the OT has moments that need multiple viewings to fully get. I won’t bring up one thing from many pages back that there is a difference of opinion on 30+ years later. Sometimes people claim plot holes when it is either something that really didn’t need explaining due to the context or that was explained but you missed it. But sometimes, to enjoy a movie, you just have to ignore them. A movie shouldn’t have to hand you everything on a platter.

In real life, people do dumb things. In mythology, people do dumb things. In fiction, people do dumb things.

Here is my take on Rose saving Finn. Finn was doing a dumb thing and Rose did a dumb thing to stop him. It doesn’t matter if Finn could have succeeded. Rose’s part in that scene is to prevent Finn from dying. It is part of the trilogy. The purpose of Rose in this film was to take Finn from a rebel ally to a full on rebel. She is a rebel and sees Finn as one of he heroes, not realizing, as we do, that he has his own agenda. She sees him leaving and doesn’t see why and thinks he is deserting. He kind of is. But the great thing about Rose is that she is a full fledged character herself. She is technician who just lost her sister. He loyalty to the cause brings Finn around to the cause. His character development was to stop running and stick around. By Crait, he becomes willing to sacrifice himself to save others and become the hero Rose thought he already was. While the Canto Bight sequence and the infiltration of the Star Destroyer ultimately fail, thanks to them hiring DJ instead of who they were sent to hire, the sequence turns Finn from an accidental hero into a true hero. Rose saving him prevents the waste of his life and preserves him as a hero for IX. It also provided an interesting side character.

In the same way, Poe’s part of the story turns him from a heroic rebel into a heroic rebel leader. In TFA and the start of TLJ, Poe is willing to take risks to gain a victory. He doesn’t understand about conserving your resources or making the tough decision to withdraw and fight another day. Leia and Holdo know this lesson well and push Poe to teach him that lesson. He learns it. Instead of trying to fight to the end on Crait, he looks for a way out and a way to fight another day. He went from a reckless hero to a leader hero. He’s probably still reckless, but he has learned a valuable lesson. It is ironic that in light of Carrier Fisher’s death, that his character is ready to take over for her as leader of the rebellion. Even the dialog moves things that direction.

Rey faced her greatest fears. She was waiting for her parents. If what Kylo said is true (and I’m pretty sure it is), then she has to face that they were never coming back. She had turned to Han as a mentor and now turns to Luke, but Luke turns her away. He cannot help her and she must help herself. She goes from waiting and relying on parental/mentor figures to standing on her own. Since Luke will not teach her, she takes the ancient texts so she can teach herself. She sees a vision through the force of Kylo and thinks she knows what it means and finds out it did not mean what she thought it did. He did not turn. By the end, she is alone and okay with that.

And Kylo. He is the Skywalker in this trilogy. Who can say what his fate is but in this film we saw him go from being even more torn inside than ever because he killed is father to firmly on a path when he decides to kill Snoke. He also saw a vision of Rey and thought he knew what it meant. But she did not join him and he is left alone as Supreme Leader. Now what is path is, I can’t say. But as a follower of Darth Vader, it is currently a dark path.

Sorry to go back a bit, but I think we need to remember that we all like and dislike different things and it colors our interpretation. We need to be careful not to make attacks too personal. This has been an interesting year for being a fan of both Star Trek and Star Wars. Well, it has been interesting for the past few years. JJ Abrams came along and gave us a vision of Star Trek that made most long time fans go “huh?” and his next installment was just bad. Followed by a third mediocre movie and a new series that lost me halfway through the first episode. Now if you want to deal with a franchise that said FU to fans, that would be it. We have now had 3 Star Wars films under Disney’s ownership and they have tried very hard to stay in the same universe. There are complaints about the story. I didn’t like TFA, many did not like TLJ, but when you compare the job these three films have done to what Star Trek fans got, it is night and day. Star Trek fans did get a gift, though it has been cut off, in that two fan productions made some very classic style episodes that were very true to the original 60’s series. That makes the travesty of the 3 films and the new series so painful. That plus watching how one of the same people went in with a who cares attitude with Star Trek and turn around and give us a love letter to Star Wars.

So my feelings on the matter might be a bit touchy because in two different fandoms I am on two different sides of appreciating the new offerings and I have very logical and solid reasons. I do not think anyone over at Paramount/CBS deliberatly set out to piss all over the classic. They have, but I don’t for a moment think that was their intent. They wanted the same thing NBC did back in 66 - action. They got it in 66 with a lot of substance and in 2009 with no substance. Frankly I think TFA had very little substance and TLJ has a lot. I don’t care if you like or dislike anything, but please put some thought and logic into your arguments. We aren’t going to agree, but we can have a great conversation (and I think we have been).

Valheru_84 said:

Having seen TLJ though, I now understand it could never be what I was expecting and that’s because RJ has a compulsion with this movie to do the exact opposite of what is expected. It was a pretty common belief that everyone was expecting TLJ to be the movie that was going to be different, darker and setting new ground after the safe bet that TFA was. So in order to do the opposite he just made another rehash movie (simply disguised a bit better by jumbling it up a bit with the edges blurred) which is what everyone didn’t want. Even the darker themes are subverted by the constant stream of tone killing humour. This movie is literally RJ giving the middle finger to a fandom and it’s expectations, making writing choices solely directed at doing the opposite of what the fandom wanted or expected, no matter the cost to the story and cohesion to the overarching saga and previously established characters and lore.

.Val

This attitude wearies me. Just because you didn’t like it and it wasn’t what you wanted to see does not mean RJ is giving fandom the middle finger. Some fans hate it. I get it. Some fans loved it. You didn’t like the humor. Some people did. You didn’t like how your expectations were turned. Some people loved how it made the story fresh and different. You didn’t like the homages to the past, some loved them. There are obviously very different opinions. But constantly saying that RJ or Disney set out to ruin the franchise is just so… Use your heads. You are part of the billion dollar package that Disney wants on board to buy tickets and merchandise. But they can’t tell the same old story. Heck, they can’t even seem to use anything similar. It sets up a catch-22. Sometimes there is no pleasing people. But at least come up with something that actually makes sense. RJ, Kennedy, or Disney trying to deliberately alienate fans makes no logical sense. It is a tired refrain that has been sung since GL sold to Disney.

Jeebus said:

yotsuya said:

Mocata said:

Mrebo said:

Mithrandir, those are excellent observations. And not only was TLJ constrained by TFA in unfortunate ways but TFA colors how TLJ is perceived. I think that is inevitable but it does make the the creator’s hand all the more visible and the similarities all the more glaring in TLJ. Like you, I can’t ignore that. There are the separate question of whether Johnson’s intent was always well executed and whether there weren’t some other better alternatives (albeit probably still not satisfying). I think those questions preoccupy most discussions and to many look like nitpicks or nostalgia but are actually referring back to more fundamental objections to the film.

There are also philosophical/ideological objections to TLJ as envisioned by Johnson, which you touched on previously. But that goes beyond whether the film is good or bad, as you noted. Objecting to the particular views expressed through TLJ they won’t be convincing to anyone who doesn’t already share the same point of view - and most people don’t really care!

The fact that there are now new spiritual discussions to have about Luke’s journey at all is the most interesting part of all this. For all the cringe BB8 slapstick moments there’s this whole other side to the story that I really enjoyed.

You mean slapstick moments like when R2 got eaten by a swamp creature and spit out? Or when he reactivated the hyperdrive and rolled across the Falcon hold and fell into the access hatch? Or maybe when he plugged into a power outlet?

I would say that those examples are much more tasteful than some of the BB-8 stuff.

I don’t see them as different at all. Just older and more familiar. Same type of humor.

Mocata said:

Mrebo said:

Mithrandir, those are excellent observations. And not only was TLJ constrained by TFA in unfortunate ways but TFA colors how TLJ is perceived. I think that is inevitable but it does make the the creator’s hand all the more visible and the similarities all the more glaring in TLJ. Like you, I can’t ignore that. There are the separate question of whether Johnson’s intent was always well executed and whether there weren’t some other better alternatives (albeit probably still not satisfying). I think those questions preoccupy most discussions and to many look like nitpicks or nostalgia but are actually referring back to more fundamental objections to the film.

There are also philosophical/ideological objections to TLJ as envisioned by Johnson, which you touched on previously. But that goes beyond whether the film is good or bad, as you noted. Objecting to the particular views expressed through TLJ they won’t be convincing to anyone who doesn’t already share the same point of view - and most people don’t really care!

The fact that there are now new spiritual discussions to have about Luke’s journey at all is the most interesting part of all this. For all the cringe BB8 slapstick moments there’s this whole other side to the story that I really enjoyed.

You mean slapstick moments like when R2 got eaten by a swamp creature and spit out? Or when he reactivated the hyperdrive and rolled across the Falcon hold and fell into the access hatch? Or maybe when he plugged into a power outlet?

Valheru_84 said:

Frank your Majesty said:

Well, how else would a ground assault look like? Walkers have been established as an effective force, if they came up with somehting new, people would ask “where are the walkers?”. Also, trenches are a very common defense against ground attacks and if there wasn’t a rebel base, what else would be the target of a ground attack? And the planet is nothing like Hoth.

I also must have missed the scene in Empire, where the Empire blasts a huge door away, or the TIE fighters joinging the ground attack or where Han flies directly at the enemy force to sacrifize himself, or Luke facing Vader to buy his friends some time.

Umm, just have terrain that doesn’t suit walkers such as in R1 where Cassian is trying to assassinate Jyn’s father?

The TIE fighters being there and Millenium Falcon dropping in out of no where (with accompanying “WOOO!” except it’s not Han saying it this time) to save the lone ship flying in a straight line (like in a trench) as the last hope in destroying “old Death Star tech” just before it fires on the Rebel base, is an element taken straight out of ANH and mixed into the recycled TESB battle of Hoth. Having just written that out, I’ve just realised it is literally the final trench run by Luke from ANH inserted in the battle of Hoth v2 except that it’s a Death Star cannon instead of the Death Star itself and Finn never reaches it in time to destroy it before it fires because of Rose. There’s two subversions right there for you once you realise it’s the Death Star trench run v2 (or should I say v4 since it’s kinda repeated in ROTJ and again in TFA against the Star Killer Base).

TLJ is literally riddled with recycled OT scenes and themes among other elements.

.Val

I don’t thing many would deny that it does recycle things. Lucas recycled plenty for the PT. He recycles plenty within the OT. That is kind of what Star Wars does. But it is the differences that give us the unique stories. As you pointed out yourself, the elements are mixed and matched to make something different. I think everyone guessed the battle on crait would feel like Hoth in some ways from the trailers. But it isn’t like Hoth in the story, not by any stretch of the imagination. The one thing I noticed when I first saw the movie was how much of the scene in Snokes red throne room was reminiscent of the throne room scene in ROTJ. It was the same with the several encounters in the PT with Count Dooku. And no two of them are alike. The contrast of the familiar and the new is what makes this movie feel like Star Wars while not being a rehash of any one other story. TFA had too many plot points in common with ANH. Not enough for me to call it a rehash, but enough for many. This is a very different story from TESB. There are some similarities. It is the middle act, things go terribly wrong, but the heroes come out the other side to fight another day. There is Jedi training. But that is were it ends. The plots and details don’t follow any previous plot and gave us something different. Now whether that created a story you like… that is a personal preference. But it did create a unique story with character development and revelations that put the characters in a different place at the end.

Mithrandir said:

Mrebo said:

I’m old enough to remember it being cool to say ROTJ was bad because DS2 was a rehash. Also it was bad because Han Solo supposedly had poor characterization and should have died. And Ewoks were poor Wookiee cousins included for unfortunate humorous and juvenile appeal. Similar and more extensive objections made now are considered offensive. I don’t understand that.

Seeing the same visuals and story beats so deliberately performed takes away from a feeling that this is an authentic world. Superficial similarities are inevitable. We can talk about the Hero’s Journey or whatever but of course stories are going to have some manner of similarities. Those seemingly coincidental similarities are not the focus. If one likes that we are seeing the same story beats and the same visuals (with twists), that’s a personal choice. But it is pretty obvious where OT is being repurposed in a fairly methodical way and that won’t feel natural to many viewers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6G_dNCSXfo

As the time passes I’m getting more trouble with this movie; It’s not clear to me up to which point RJ is saying screw you to the OT, or if he is actually saying fuck you to JJ Abrams who left him in this starting position to begin with, a Luke Skywalker that’s not the Luke Skywalker we know from the OT.

Despite his journey in TLJ Luke ends up looking at the horizon and being an idealist.

Surely Luke could have come out of hiding and conducted the war against his nephew, probably it is even within his range of power and knowledge to totally destroy him, kill him. Now think if Luke Skywalker from the OT, the one that couldn’t kill and forgave his beating father would be capable of killing a child of his own blood just because of the moral imperative of galactic politics. To have him do that would be out of character. As it might be out of character to have him go into hiding in the first place, but that wasn’t RJ’s fault at all. Even more, TLJ up to some point fixes the problems of TFA by leaving us in a similar situation to where the OT started: an orphan and a now plainly evil-beyond-redemption villain. By giving us this Luke, he allowed Luke from the OT to still be up to the very end of his life. By dying looking to the horizon, he’s still the same of ESB, who says fuck you to hic et nunc Yoda, and by doing so, to the old Jedi Order going after his friends. And he does again in TLJ. And by setting a situation where it’s Luke who saves the day, it even comes against the very message of the most part of the movie, which is that heroes don’t exist. They do.

Yes, the visual beats that repeat themselves are a trouble and are personally to me the evidence of all this being played, as in a game of mind, on purpose by the writer, in micro and macro scales, as the scene with the iron “landing” over the wardrobe of the first order, he has to make the best he can to answer questions and situations that weren’t his to begin with, and that were made by fan-oriented-marketing strategies that stamp all over VII that now may hopefully be vanquished:

why did Luke go into hiding? (just because it would be cool to rise Luke to the ultimate Jedi Master and make him unaccessible, it would be cool to make him the mcguffin of VII)

why did Kylo had to be a fan of Star Wars (because it would be cool to have another villain with a helmet. Johnson voices Snoke -because being that TFA is a commentary on the fans (and Lucas warned it, they made something for the fans) its continuation couldn’t be less than a commentary on that commentary in order to let the thing breathe again): Take that ridicoulous helmet off.

Why did Kylo had to be a complex, layered, gray bad guy? because it would be cool and it would sell (literally) to have a layered, relatable vilain: Vader proved and widened the notion of antihero as a figure of admiration.

What can you do to solve those starting points without flattening the most beloved character of the saga into a person capable of killing a boy? Look where the movie starts and where it ends.

As a writer, in order to preserve the essence of Luke, he had to change him to somehow justify an unjustifiable writing decission. And in doing so he closes another counterdiction in the movie, which makes it richer. Once F. Scott Fitzgerald said a mind of first class is that one that can enclose two opposite ideas at the same time.

By leaving, he can come back.
By refusing Yoda’s teachings in ESB, he becomes a Jedi
By refusing to be a Jedi, he ends up being the Last of them
By being the Last One, he seeds the future.
By meditating and looking within, he reaches beyond Ach-To, or the opposite
By reaching the exterior world, he reaches inner peace.
By coming back to life, he dies.
By dying, he ascends into the Force and lives forever.

Having Luke be in two places simultaneously is not only stating the most powerful force trick we’ve seen (and hope no one undermines this achievment in new installments of the saga makin it a random power) but as well it is the visual statement of the misterical duplicity of some human being’s destiny.

Brilliant observation

Collipso said:

Hardcore Legend said:

chyron8472 said:

Collipso said:

That’s just, from my point of view, Rian Johnson doing whatever he can to destroy everything that’s within his reach simply because he can, to prove some sort of point to someone.

Seriously?

That’s going a bit far.

It didn’t seem like he was destroying things just because he could (to me, at least). It did seem like he was continuing or building importance of things only to make them unimportant for some shock value.

Well, I think he did that to everything he could without making 100% of the audience being really bothered by the direction and twists of the movie. (Only 40-30% was, I think. Maybe less)

See, I didn’t see it that way. This is the middle act of a three act play. Same as the OT. In act 2, everything goes south. And while I think the majority of things went wrong in this film for our heroes, none of it was for shock value, none of it was gratuitous, none of it was ultimately unimportant. Finn and Rose did what any good hero would do, try and find a way out of the predicament. The success or failure of what they tried is secondary to the importance of character development. Finn’s character develops hugely during his mission. The mission fails, but lessons are learned. Poe similarly tries to find a way out of the predicament and fails. Failure is the hallmark of the 2nd act. Look at TESB. Yes, the rebels escape and regroup, but Han and Leia have a running chase that ultimately ends in Han being turned over the the Boba Fett and Liea escaping on the Falcon. It is a running series of failures until the final escape and rescue of Luke. Rey tries to get Luke to come back, but fails. At least initially. She gets some lessons out of him, a very important one among them, but ultimately she is beyond the level of most students and embarks on a self-study program with the ancient texts. Leia and Luke act as mentors, shepherding Poe and Rey into their roles. Luke does so unwittingly until Yoda shows up to let him in on the secret. The movie doesn’t take the obvious route if you were expecting success, but the 2nd act is about failure and that is what this movie is full of. The pay-off will be in the third act, like it was with the OT. In a world where there is only Star Wars and TESB, TESB isn’t a very satisfying story. But the final act is where he payoff is. RJ built a very good 2nd act and now we have to hope the final act can match it.

DrDre said:

Matt.F said:

“There’s no doubt the First Order control the galaxy.”

Dre, that’s not what we see in the two movies thus far. The First Order seem to have a serious Arsenal but we don’t ever see any garrisons or colonial troops on any planets like we did so frequently with the Empire.

In fact the FO don’t have a presence on any of the planets we see in the ST, they turn up and attack like raiders then depart.

It’s what RJ put into the crawl and dialogue. If he didn’t want the viewer to have the impression, that the FO is an unstoppable force, he wouldn’t have put it in.

Episode VIII
The Last Jedi

The FIRST ORDER reigns.
Having decimated the peaceful
Republic, Supreme Leader Snoke
now deployes his merciless
legions to seize military
control of the galaxy.

Only General Leia Organa’s
band of RESISTANCE fighters
stand against the rising
tyranny, certain that Jedi
Master Luke Skywalker will
return and restore a spark of
hope to the fight

But the Resistance has been
exposed. As the First Order
speeds toward the rebel base,
the brave heroes mount a
desperate escape…

It opens with the worst, the shocker. The First Order Reigns. But from the rest of the crawl, this is technically inaccurate because they don’t yet reign over anything new. Troops have been sent out, but nothing conquered yet. While the second paragraph goes on to say that Leia and the Resistance stand against the rising tyranny. And what are they waiting for? Luke to come and restore a spark of hope to the fight. The movie goes on to reveal that Leia has friends and allies who could save them, but don’t. It is not implied that they have been crushed, but that that have chosen not to respond and the first paragraph of the crawl already provided the reason. So there is plenty of room to doubt that the First Order controls anything more now than they did at the opening of TFA. They have launched the attack fleets, but not yet done anything. Wiping out the resistance and the hero of the old Rebel Alliance seems to be their first priority. They know what a danger Leia can be and she slips through their fingers thanks to Luke and Rey. The OT crawls presented the Empire as an unstoppable force and look what they did - they stopped them.

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

NeverarGreat said:

yotsuya said:

Many comments here have taken the First Order superiority so far to be that they are in charge. There is no evidence of that.

“The FIRST ORDER reigns. Having decimated the peaceful Republic, Supreme Leader Snoke now deploys his merciless legions to seize military control of the galaxy.”

Reign:
a : royal authority : sovereignty

b : the dominion, sway, or influence of one resembling a monarch

Read what you posted. The quote from the crawl? It doesn’t mean that the First Order has taken control of any planets. It means they were victorious in the last movie. How much time has passed? Days. The First Order found out where the Resistance base was and are now moving in to wipe it out. That means very little time has passed. The Resistance has a few ships and has nearly finished the evacuation by the time the First Order arrives. No time at all. No time for Snoke’s forces to achieve any great victories or subjugate any planet. The text you posted says “now deploys” - present tense. That means it is happening, not has happened. Reigns is a bit strong for the situation that the rest of the crawl then describes. Typical of a SW crawl.

So, to resummaraize, the First Order destroyed the Republic capitol and fleet in the Hosnian system. They have regrouped after the destruction of Starkiller base (which wiped out a chuck of their power) and are attacking the Resistance base and Snoke has ordered his legions to go seize control of the galaxy. Nothing is done yet. It is in progress. That also explains why no one answers Leia’s call. They are set to defend themselves from Snoke and the First Order. Snoke and the First Order have not yet won. They have only won the first salvo.

I hate to bring in the PT, but the Clone War showed how hard it is too take a planet so nothing is going to happen overnight. You are reading too much into the word Reigns without paying attention to what the rest of it says.

Episode VIII
The Last Jedi

The FIRST ORDER reigns.
Having decimated the peaceful
Republic, Supreme Leader Snoke
now deployes his merciless
legions to seize military
control of the galaxy.

Only General Leia Organa’s
band of RESISTANCE fighters
stand against the rising
tyranny, certain that Jedi
Master Luke Skywalker will
return and restore a spark of
hope to the fight

But the Resistance has been
exposed. As the First Order
speeds toward the rebel base,
the brave heroes mount a
desperate escape…

The timeing and the second paragraph of the crawl refute your claim that the First Order has already won, as does the lack of help Leia receives when she send out the call for help. You won’t get help from people who are preparing for an attack. And the results of the film call back to this in that what Luke does on Crait is that he definitely restores a spark of hope to the fight and that final scene with the stable boys proves it. It is not a done deal yet. The fight is not over. Leia and the Resistance stand in the way and they First Order couldn’t even manage to wipe them out. Very pad PR for the First Order. Not what you want to have happen when you are trying to take over the galaxy. Oops.

The fight is not over in the OT either, yet the Empire reigns the galaxy, despite the fact that the Alliance is quite substantial. It is stated the FO reigns at the start of TLJ, and it is said in the film, that it is a matter of weeks before the FO controls all major systems. Additionally the socalled Resistance standing against the rising tyranny consists of a handful of ships at the start of the film, that are on the run, and a single piece of junk at the end of it. There’s no doubt the FO control the galaxy.

But there is doubt. Reigns really doesn’t apply and is used to show that they think they have won. They haven’t won anything yet in this movie. There is no list of planets they have taken over. There isn’t news of a single one. Yes, they stand poised to take over a nice chunk within weeks, but they still haven’t done it. Nothing has really happened except the Hosnian system has been destroyed. What we have is the setup to build a stronger Republic. After what the First Order does and in light of the failure of he second republic, do you think a third repubic is going to be stupid enough to ignore Leia’s wisdom? The Galaxy will know a brief time of turmoil and come out stronger and Rey will build a new Jedi order. Luke taught her of balance - a lesson I don’t think any Jedi has had before. That is where the Rebels series has been headed. That was the crux of the PT. I think the resolution to the saga involves balance and an at least partial redemption of Kylo Ren and achieving balance. For the people of the galaxy, it involves safety, security, and freedom. They need the Republic and they need the Jedi, but a new Jedi not bound by the old teachings. Rey has effectively broken free from the PT lineage and can create something new and better. I see this trilogy saying that the OT would give us the same old Republic and the same old Jedi with all their problems, but if we take it a step further, disrupt things, reforge things, we can give the galaxy an even better Republic and an even better Jedi. Instead of resetting things to where we find them in TPM, it is resetting things to where they were 1000 years or generations ago.

You see destruction. I see reforging.

They haven’t won anything? They’ve beaten the military opposition so badly, they fit in a single ship. That’s a win if I ever saw one. The FO were poised to take over in weeks before this win. It is a mathematical certainty now that the opposition has been eliminated.

They have beaten the Resistance that have been a thorn in their side, but they have not won. The people that escaped in the Falcon are leaders, heroes, legends. They carry the story of what Luke did on Crait (provided Leia didn’t make sure the entire galaxy knew). They are the hope and they have the advantage. They have allies and can spread the word of what is coming and that there is hope. It is a powerful PR message. The British won at Bunker Hill, but at a terrible price. The FO won at Crait, but they let the new rebels slip through their fingers. Not something they can afford to do. That is the type of hollow victory that can lose wars.

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:
And while the head has been cut off from the Republic, the First Order has not conquered the galaxy. They are trying to conquer the galaxy which is a much different thing. The galaxy free of the Empire still stands. A few worlds might have fallen under First Order control in the days since the Republic capitol and fleet were destroyed, but he question of whether they are the only ships capable of defense and if any of the planets being attacked can repel the attack remains to be seen. And in a vast galaxy, there is no way the First Order can have conquered everything in the days that have passed in the story.

I copy NeverarGreat’s response:

“The FIRST ORDER reigns. Having decimated the peaceful Republic, Supreme Leader Snoke now deploys his merciless legions to seize military control of the galaxy.”

Reign:
a : royal authority : sovereignty

b : the dominion, sway, or influence of one resembling a monarch

Furthermore it is stated in TLJ, that the FO will control all the major systems in weeks.

I’m quite sure that the first Order will take over quite a few systems that were relying on the Republic. But the ones who listened to Leia won’t be so easy and will put up a fight. And even if the FO takes over a planet, they still have to impose their will on it and after 30 years of freedom, the people won’t take so kindly to totalitarian orders. The fight is not over and the FO will spread itself too thin to hang on in the face of opposition. Snoke has the same over confidence as Palpatine. But look at what the good guys did here. Snoke is dead. A full invasion force could not kill Luke. Kylo Ren could not kill Luke or capture a paltry band of rebels. And the story spread. The spark of hope that Leia knew they needed is exactly what they got. TLJ is an embarrassment for the FO. Like the British at Bunker Hill, more victories like that will cost them the war. Exactly what Leia is hoping for. She just made a PR coup against the FO. The Resistance/Rebels have taken out Starkiller base and Snoke’s flagship and escaped out from under them. (Yes most are dead, but Leia isn’t).

You’re joking right? The FO has decimated the New Republic, and reduced the Resistance to a single ship with a few dozen people on board. The rebellion has no personel, equipment, or funds. TLJ was a huge victory for the FO, with the Resistance getting a consolation prize with the legend of Luke Skywalker, that may have lit a spark to start rebuilding a rebellion over the years to come. This being fiction they naturally will. However, if we can call the Alliance’s victory at the end of ROTJ tenuous in real world terms, the Resistance is as dead as a door nail by TLJ’s end credits.

Until Leia goes to help her most powerful ally repel the FO invasion. Until that spark of hope she wanted spreads and grows the new rebellion. The key is that she sent out a message in hopes of a rescue. Knowing that there is a FO fleet overhead and a full scale assault army attacking, that means there are enough allies out there to make her hope of rescue logical. That they don’t come indicates they expect to have fleets coming after them just as Leia likely warned would happen. The resistance is dead, but long live the Rebellion. And this time they have the home field advantage. They aren’t throwing off the remnants of the ancient Republic, but repelling a new invasion. Nothing in this film indicates that the FO yet controls anything. They don’t control the communication system. It is coming unless it can be stopped.

Now it remains to be seen if the next film is days or years in the future. If days, then the FO is going to be defeated before they succeed. If years, then the fight is harder and they will have to win back what they lose. In either case, the Republic formed after their defeat will be stronger and still a legacy of the ROTJ victory.

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

NeverarGreat said:

yotsuya said:

Many comments here have taken the First Order superiority so far to be that they are in charge. There is no evidence of that.

“The FIRST ORDER reigns. Having decimated the peaceful Republic, Supreme Leader Snoke now deploys his merciless legions to seize military control of the galaxy.”

Reign:
a : royal authority : sovereignty

b : the dominion, sway, or influence of one resembling a monarch

Read what you posted. The quote from the crawl? It doesn’t mean that the First Order has taken control of any planets. It means they were victorious in the last movie. How much time has passed? Days. The First Order found out where the Resistance base was and are now moving in to wipe it out. That means very little time has passed. The Resistance has a few ships and has nearly finished the evacuation by the time the First Order arrives. No time at all. No time for Snoke’s forces to achieve any great victories or subjugate any planet. The text you posted says “now deploys” - present tense. That means it is happening, not has happened. Reigns is a bit strong for the situation that the rest of the crawl then describes. Typical of a SW crawl.

So, to resummaraize, the First Order destroyed the Republic capitol and fleet in the Hosnian system. They have regrouped after the destruction of Starkiller base (which wiped out a chuck of their power) and are attacking the Resistance base and Snoke has ordered his legions to go seize control of the galaxy. Nothing is done yet. It is in progress. That also explains why no one answers Leia’s call. They are set to defend themselves from Snoke and the First Order. Snoke and the First Order have not yet won. They have only won the first salvo.

I hate to bring in the PT, but the Clone War showed how hard it is too take a planet so nothing is going to happen overnight. You are reading too much into the word Reigns without paying attention to what the rest of it says.

Episode VIII
The Last Jedi

The FIRST ORDER reigns.
Having decimated the peaceful
Republic, Supreme Leader Snoke
now deployes his merciless
legions to seize military
control of the galaxy.

Only General Leia Organa’s
band of RESISTANCE fighters
stand against the rising
tyranny, certain that Jedi
Master Luke Skywalker will
return and restore a spark of
hope to the fight

But the Resistance has been
exposed. As the First Order
speeds toward the rebel base,
the brave heroes mount a
desperate escape…

The timeing and the second paragraph of the crawl refute your claim that the First Order has already won, as does the lack of help Leia receives when she send out the call for help. You won’t get help from people who are preparing for an attack. And the results of the film call back to this in that what Luke does on Crait is that he definitely restores a spark of hope to the fight and that final scene with the stable boys proves it. It is not a done deal yet. The fight is not over. Leia and the Resistance stand in the way and they First Order couldn’t even manage to wipe them out. Very pad PR for the First Order. Not what you want to have happen when you are trying to take over the galaxy. Oops.

The fight is not over in the OT either, yet the Empire reigns the galaxy, despite the fact that the Alliance is quite substantial. It is stated the FO reigns at the start of TLJ, and it is said in the film, that it is a matter of weeks before the FO controls all major systems. Additionally the socalled Resistance standing against the rising tyranny consists of a handful of ships at the start of the film, that are on the run, and a single piece of junk at the end of it. There’s no doubt the FO control the galaxy.

But there is doubt. Reigns really doesn’t apply and is used to show that they think they have won. They haven’t won anything yet in this movie. There is no list of planets they have taken over. There isn’t news of a single one. Yes, they stand poised to take over a nice chunk within weeks, but they still haven’t done it. Nothing has really happened except the Hosnian system has been destroyed. What we have is the setup to build a stronger Republic. After what the First Order does and in light of the failure of he second republic, do you think a third repubic is going to be stupid enough to ignore Leia’s wisdom? The Galaxy will know a brief time of turmoil and come out stronger and Rey will build a new Jedi order. Luke taught her of balance - a lesson I don’t think any Jedi has had before. That is where the Rebels series has been headed. That was the crux of the PT. I think the resolution to the saga involves balance and an at least partial redemption of Kylo Ren and achieving balance. For the people of the galaxy, it involves safety, security, and freedom. They need the Republic and they need the Jedi, but a new Jedi not bound by the old teachings. Rey has effectively broken free from the PT lineage and can create something new and better. I see this trilogy saying that the OT would give us the same old Republic and the same old Jedi with all their problems, but if we take it a step further, disrupt things, reforge things, we can give the galaxy an even better Republic and an even better Jedi. Instead of resetting things to where we find them in TPM, it is resetting things to where they were 1000 years or generations ago.

You see destruction. I see reforging.

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:
And while the head has been cut off from the Republic, the First Order has not conquered the galaxy. They are trying to conquer the galaxy which is a much different thing. The galaxy free of the Empire still stands. A few worlds might have fallen under First Order control in the days since the Republic capitol and fleet were destroyed, but he question of whether they are the only ships capable of defense and if any of the planets being attacked can repel the attack remains to be seen. And in a vast galaxy, there is no way the First Order can have conquered everything in the days that have passed in the story.

I copy NeverarGreat’s response:

“The FIRST ORDER reigns. Having decimated the peaceful Republic, Supreme Leader Snoke now deploys his merciless legions to seize military control of the galaxy.”

Reign:
a : royal authority : sovereignty

b : the dominion, sway, or influence of one resembling a monarch

Furthermore it is stated in TLJ, that the FO will control all the major systems in weeks.

I’m quite sure that the first Order will take over quite a few systems that were relying on the Republic. But the ones who listened to Leia won’t be so easy and will put up a fight. And even if the FO takes over a planet, they still have to impose their will on it and after 30 years of freedom, the people won’t take so kindly to totalitarian orders. The fight is not over and the FO will spread itself too thin to hang on in the face of opposition. Snoke has the same over confidence as Palpatine. But look at what the good guys did here. Snoke is dead. A full invasion force could not kill Luke. Kylo Ren could not kill Luke or capture a paltry band of rebels. And the story spread. The spark of hope that Leia knew they needed is exactly what they got. TLJ is an embarrassment for the FO. Like the British at Bunker Hill, more victories like that will cost them the war. Exactly what Leia is hoping for. She just made a PR coup against the FO. The Resistance/Rebels have taken out Starkiller base and Snoke’s flagship and escaped out from under them. (Yes most are dead, but Leia isn’t).

NeverarGreat said:

yotsuya said:

Many comments here have taken the First Order superiority so far to be that they are in charge. There is no evidence of that.

“The FIRST ORDER reigns. Having decimated the peaceful Republic, Supreme Leader Snoke now deploys his merciless legions to seize military control of the galaxy.”

Reign:
a : royal authority : sovereignty

b : the dominion, sway, or influence of one resembling a monarch

Read what you posted. The quote from the crawl? It doesn’t mean that the First Order has taken control of any planets. It means they were victorious in the last movie. How much time has passed? Days. The First Order found out where the Resistance base was and are now moving in to wipe it out. That means very little time has passed. The Resistance has a few ships and has nearly finished the evacuation by the time the First Order arrives. No time at all. No time for Snoke’s forces to achieve any great victories or subjugate any planet. The text you posted says “now deploys” - present tense. That means it is happening, not has happened. Reigns is a bit strong for the situation that the rest of the crawl then describes. Typical of a SW crawl.

So, to resummaraize, the First Order destroyed the Republic capitol and fleet in the Hosnian system. They have regrouped after the destruction of Starkiller base (which wiped out a chuck of their power) and are attacking the Resistance base and Snoke has ordered his legions to go seize control of the galaxy. Nothing is done yet. It is in progress. That also explains why no one answers Leia’s call. They are set to defend themselves from Snoke and the First Order. Snoke and the First Order have not yet won. They have only won the first salvo.

I hate to bring in the PT, but the Clone War showed how hard it is too take a planet so nothing is going to happen overnight. You are reading too much into the word Reigns without paying attention to what the rest of it says.

Episode VIII
The Last Jedi

The FIRST ORDER reigns.
Having decimated the peaceful
Republic, Supreme Leader Snoke
now deployes his merciless
legions to seize military
control of the galaxy.

Only General Leia Organa’s
band of RESISTANCE fighters
stand against the rising
tyranny, certain that Jedi
Master Luke Skywalker will
return and restore a spark of
hope to the fight

But the Resistance has been
exposed. As the First Order
speeds toward the rebel base,
the brave heroes mount a
desperate escape…

The timeing and the second paragraph of the crawl refute your claim that the First Order has already won, as does the lack of help Leia receives when she send out the call for help. You won’t get help from people who are preparing for an attack. And the results of the film call back to this in that what Luke does on Crait is that he definitely restores a spark of hope to the fight and that final scene with the stable boys proves it. It is not a done deal yet. The fight is not over. Leia and the Resistance stand in the way and they First Order couldn’t even manage to wipe them out. Very pad PR for the First Order. Not what you want to have happen when you are trying to take over the galaxy. Oops.