yotsuya

chyron8472 said:

KILLOFFPOE said:

So in almost every scene of the movie I had a knife twisting in my side about how bad this was and didn’t make sense. Makes it really hard to appreciate the good aspects.

You are seeing the movie as awful because you expect to see it that way. You have preconceived ideas about how the Star Wars Universe is supposed to work, whether you decided them on your own or were given them by EU. You feel the movie twisting a knife when that knife belongs to you.

You do not let the movies tell you a story on their own terms. You want it to be on your terms and are angry and frustrated that it doesn’t work that way. If you were willing to let the films tell their own stories and expand your understanding of the universe as you acquire more information about it, you would be able to accept and enjoy it.

 
But it doesn’t make sense that we could have sent people to walk on the moon because planes don’t crash into the ground when they fly in straight lines, so the Apollo missions must have been faked since we know the Earth to be flat.

I have to agree with your assessment, though I think your last paragraph is a bit off topic. DrDre was expecting ROTJ hero Luke, not old Mentor Luke. Such a fall is a mythic trope. I don’t know what some others were expecting, but whatever they expected they were disappointed. I was looking for a good story and I researched how likely Rian Johnson was to deliver that and was pleased with the potential and the final product met my expectations (being a good story). I watched Twelve O’Clock High and the space chase and the command structure wrangling and Poe’s lessons are so in keeping with that film. They lessons are very character specific and are quite different from that film, but you can see the same story telling at work. Finn starts out, once he wakes up, with a mission and Rose shows him that he should be on a different mission and he goes from someone traveling along with the resistance to being one of them. Rey is forced to face her parents. She was forced to face that they were never coming back in TFA, and in this one she is faced with them being just normal people, of no particular importance. Both revelations shake her to the core and her character has gone from looking for a place to belong to finding it (why else did she take the ancient Jedi texts). They stories played out in their own way and are nicely woven together to create a good final product.

TLJ has none of Abrams ridiculousness and his contrived story telling methods and sticks to traditional story telling, just like Lucas did in the OT. I felt that he understood the Hero’s Journey and Cambell’s work as well as the 30’s sci-fi serial and thee 50’s Samurai films that really gave Star Wars its flavor. It was a great middle chapter that gave purpose to Abrams film. Hopefully the ending that Rian was writing towards is something that Abrams can complete rather than doing his own thing. I see several paths to reach a conclusion, either not skipping time or skipping a few years. We shall see what IX brings. I almost wish they’d do what so many book series adaptions have done and split the next on into two films, but I think Rian had an ending in mind and I think I see part of what it is. I think he was going with Lucas’s balancing the force concept and this entire trilogy would be about finishing the prophesy.

And as for bringing this back to an Empire vs. Rebellion, isn’t that what the Thrawn trilogy did? True it was still the New Republic, but he brought the Empire back big time - bigger than the First Order (though we really don’t know how big it is, but the New Republic (whose capital and fleet were destroyed) in TFA is a lot smaller than the Legends New Republic. The Thrawn trilogy was something many considered as standing in the place of the ST or good material to adapt for the ST. But this is 30 years on instead of 10, and that is 30 years for a slice of the old Empire to grow and build a large military industrial complex that can put out huge ships and a lot of manpower.

I really don’t know what people were expecting from a sequel trilogy, but then again I don’t know what people were expecting from the prequel trilogy either. The story GL chose to tell wasn’t as iconic as the OT, which means it was never going to be as good, and then it was flawed with too much GL in the scripts and some strange directing choices that I can see and appreciate, but that don’t really forward the story. Abrams almost did better than GL, but Rian nailed what this trilogy needed and set a course forward. I have little confidence that Abrams will pull off a stirring finale to the saga on his own. But if he has script and editing help and is working off of what GL, Rian, or both, had in mind, it could be incredible. Or he could flub it like he did TFA.

KILLOFFPOE said:

SilverWook said:

KILLOFFPOE said:

SilverWook said:

Are you sure someone doesn’t have a voodoo doll of you? 😉

That was no skidding turn, that was real spacecraft physics. Babylon 5 had spacecraft turn on an axis to fire like that all the time.

Star Wars doesn’t have “real spacecraft physics”. Star Wars has always been “WWII in Space”. I’ve never seen a P-51 Mustang make a turn like that!

Is there some limit to how big a spaceship can be I’m not aware of? Snoke’s ship didn’t seem that much larger than Vader’s Star Destroyer. Perhaps Snoke was compensating for something…

The Death Star and the Executor are fine because they’re the culmination of the galaxy-ruling Empire’s power. Those ships are what infinite money and a firm grasp on all supply lines and independent contractors gets you. And they’re single ships. They have to construct a new Death Star when they want another.

But the rules of the Disney Trilogy are evidently “bigger ship every movie” despite whatever happened 18 hours ago in TFA. Starkiller was ridiculous. The First Order has infinite money. Infinite crew. Despite supposedly being a “fringe group” attempting to rise to power on the edge of the galaxy.

Remember that the visual dictionary says than Snoke’s Ship has a crew of TWO MILLION the next time a disney fan tries to convince you the First Order is “small” or resource constrained.

Pretty sure P-51’s defy physics in Lucas’ Red Tails movie. Spacecraft don’t make noise in a vacuum either. 😉

I don’t take much stock in what the visual dictionary says. Would you take what they imply about Snoke as gospel?

The two million passes the eye test too just based on how freaking overly huge that ship was.

And again, I don’t care about realistic physics at all. I just want the in-universe abilities to remain constant between movies. The X-Wing powerslide was the new Legolas skateboard.

What is obvious is that Snoke and the First Order are a continuation of the Empire. From the equipment they have and the developments they have made, it seem pretty clear that they have access to the designs of the Empire and the ability to manufacture equipment on the same scale. To me that means their home base is the location of one of the Empire’s manufacturing centers. Palpatine like to control everything so it is reasonable to assume that Snoke, given his very similar abilities and personality, could take over such a facility and keep it going. The ships are just an offshoot of the scale and designs of the old Empire. Snoke’s ship is huge, but it is no where near as large as the Death Star (and old Palpy had two of those built). And from the official descriptions of Snoke’s ship, it is not only a very large Star Destroyer, but a mobile space dock for building and repairing the smaller Star Destroyers. Compared to the two Death Stars and Starkiller base (which mechanically is less complex than either Death Star since it was built on an existing planetary body), Snoke’s ship is nothing.

lovelikewinter said:

For those of you who are questioning Luke’s actions- he’s suffering from severe depression. Depression can really fuck with you and speaking from experience you do stuff that’s not normal for you.

Exactly!

ElectroDroid said:

My rating for TLJ has now fallen to a 3/5 to a 2.5/5.
The only thing I liked in this movie was Rey and Kylo Ren. That was literally it.
I sort of dislike Rian Johnson’s style. He just seems like some egoist that thinks he needed to ‘bend genres’ and ‘break tropes’ and ‘be shocking and Avant-garde’ to prove how Nolanesque he is or something. Not someone who’s suited to make a blockbuster movie.
Every bad decision in this film is being defended as if the filmmakers were shackled to the story and the thing just wrote itself (“that’s what’s realistic”). Sorry, but as someone who’s a film major, that’s not how the force works.
I’m glad some of you got joy out of this movie, but if Luke can turn his back on his sister and friends, I can turn my back on Star Wars. Solo is probably the last one I’ll see, as I’m actually looking forward to that one.

EDIT: Apologies for originally saying I hate Rian Johnson 😉. Hating a director you don’t know is silly. His filmmaking just rubbed me wrong, personally.

People can do inexplicable things after a tragedy. If that rubs you the wrong way that’s great. Do you have a nice honest opinion about why you don’t like it - fine by me. But the one thing I did doing preparation to see this movie is I found out that Rian Johnson had been inspired by three movies and I looked them up and found out what they’re about and watched two of them. I’m trying to watch the third one right now. And I wouldn’t call any of his storytelling avant-garde or new because none of that he was looking at less than 50 years old. One of them, Twelve O’clock High, was a big influence on George Lucas’s plans for the first Death Star Battle. Ryan Johnson Drew from it interesting command lessons and a few other things that went deeper into the story. Three Outlaw Samurai has a lot of similarities, though not in plot, to Hidden Fortress, the original plot inspiration for Star Wars.

I personally find Rian Johnson storytelling to be very inspired. I think it’s just the right amount of subtlety and action and makes a perfect complement to the previous movie. Definitely not as subtle as the prequels, but this movie was mostly action with some carefully told character development for each of the main characters. I’m not swear I say settled because on the surface it doesn’t seem like each of those things is terribly important, but when you look at the character development from the last movie to the end of this movie it is a huge jump in these characters development. I love it I love what they did with Luke. Luke was the hero in the original trilogy and this Trilogy he’s not. The success of the original trilogy lasted 10 20 years, we haven’t been given a time frame. And then things went to hell and Luke went from Legend to grumpy old Mentor, which is a classic Mythic trope. And Mark played the role perfectly. I rank this and Rogue one right after the original trilogy in quality. And I find it terribly I’m using that Frink and I agree on this movie because he’s so totally did not agree on The Force Awakens. So I challenge anyone who didn’t like this movie to tune into IX and see what they do before you throw the whole sequel trilogy out the window.

Mrebo said:

Frank your Majesty said:

Why didn’t the Death Star just jump in a position where it could immediately fire at Yavin 4, instead of circling the planet for half an hour?

I never thought of the Death Star having hyperspace capability. As we try to rationalize travel times in a sciencey way that probably isn’t very realistic. But such is the burden of trying to make space fantasy = science. But let’s follow that thread. I think it very likely that in calculating the hyperspace jump, they didn’t account for the location of the orbit. Some slight additional travel time might be expected (in the movie, half an hour) to adjust, but that’s no big deal. Any jump with something the size of the Death Star would presumably expend a tremendous amount of energy. Just makes sense to finish the last 30 minutes of the journey in normal space.

Getting back to TLJ situation: the chase could go on for another day or longer. I don’t recall if the FO somehow knew exactly how much fuel they had. We know that the ships in question, in the movie, absolutely do have hyperspace capability. That should answer how the two situations are different.

In A New Hope the Falcon jump to hyperspace to escape the Death Star and go to Yavin 4. The Death Star is right behind them and the only way that could happen is if the Death Star has a hyperdrive. It’s there in the original story as it played in 1977. I think the reason is that Capital ships Star Destroyers and larger have a hard time making smaller jumps. And they’d have to time it just right so that the ship they’re chasing doesn’t see them and evade them, so it’s not really a valid flaw that the first order ships didn’t do a mini jump to get ahead of the resistance Cruiser.

Think about the convieniece in the first movie. The driods just happen to get picked by Jawas that stop first at the Lars homestead. The one homestead with a connection to Kenobi. Any other would have done as far as R2 is concerned because Luke want part of his plan, but Luke is crutial to GL’s script. Star Wars has a lot of convenient plot points like that. Usually we don’t think about them.

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Collipso said:

DominicCobb said:

Collipso said:

Still talking about Luke, I’ll try to clear things up a little bit. I don’t really have a problem with Luke not living up to be the legend he was made out to be. I just don’t understand, for example, how did the legend originate. Like I said in a previous post, his victories were mostly personal and (should be) unknown to the rest of the galaxy, except for destroying the first Death Star. But I can see how a myth or some mystery feeling would grow around him, given that most people probably thought that the mysterious nature of his activities and his sad devotion to an ancient religion were suspicious and weird. And mysterious and wizardry. Anyway.

I don’t get why the tales of his bravery wouldn’t spread and balloon. And he had more victories than we saw in the films.

What tales of bravery? How he led the defense of Echo Base in Hoth and failed miserably? Or how he disappeared only to show up without a hand? Granted, Han Solo’s rescue is a big deal and was probably one of the greatest displays of Luke being a hero, but so what? The clone wars is full of badass moments and missions. Moreso than Han’s rescue. Then Luke basically defected in Endor, and I think the other rebels that didn’t know of his whereabouts were quite suspicious. And then he suddenly comes back! He’d eventually tell Han and Leia what happened, sure, but how the events in the Death Star II eventually led up to a legend is beyond me.

What clone wars moments? There’s only the battle of Geonosis, Coruscant and Utapau.

What I really have a problem with is how he died and ultimately failed his goal, failed his whole purpose in the original trilogy, which was to rebuild the Jedi Order. That makes him a failure imo. Not only that but the movie also makes him betray his character arc in the scene with Kylo with unconvincing explanation as to why, and also present him as some sort of fool for making the exact same mistake that his mentors did years before, mistakes that he was aware were made. And what pisses me off is that all of this happened just so that Rey could have the exact same journey as Luke, specially now that we have the exact same scenario we had in the original movies.

Luke didn’t fail, though. His goal was to become a Jedi (check) and to pass on what he learned (check). He will not be the last Jedi, and Rey won’t be a Jedi like him.

He did fail. Yes, becoming a Jedi was one of his goals, and he achieved that, but at the moment Darth Vader destroyed his beliefs, expectations, values, ideas of his purpose and the reason why he was fighting, his purpose and he himself became much bigger than just becoming a Jedi because his dad was one.

Do you think he passed on what he learned? Not to Rey, I don’t think. She has the books, but that’s about it. He taught her nothing, and the movie made that very clear. She might become a Jedi still, but not from or because of Luke.

Not only did he not teach her nothing, I don’t think he’s done teaching her. And yes, she is going to be a Jedi because of Luke, not just because of the few lessons he taught her, but because he inspired her (and the rest of the galaxy).

Anyway, after RotJ he built a Jedi Order that lasted for probably some 3-5 years, only for it to be destroyed. Another failure. And then he died. His death scene was pretty badass and beautiful, I’ll give you that, and it showed how awesome Luke Skywalker can be. But he still failed. I’m making it sound like that’s the problem - that he failed - but no. The problem is that he died a failure. It served no purpose, it just pissed on his character. Everything he tried to accomplish, accomplished and built was either destroyed or killed, including Luke himself.

He could have just… survived. Been able to go on, to teach a new generation, to learn from his failures rather than to die as one. But that was not allowed.

Did we even watch the same movie? The idea that Luke died a failure… clearly that was not what happened.

Mmm, let me see. Luke was instrumental in bringing peace and justice back to the galaxy. He wanted to train a new generation of Jedi. He made a mistake, and ended up failing his students, and by running away rather than fix that mistake, he allowed a second darkness to take over the galaxy. He is partly responsible for that. Luke’s legacy is one of failure. While he has provided hope for a future generation, it is now up to the next generation to fix his mess. Luke is like a guy with huge debts, who after refusing to pay them, dies just after providing his heirs the hope of paying off those debts in time. That is not a legacy of success in any shape or form.

If you choose to interpret it that (wrong) way that’s your prerogative. But the film (and it’s ending especially) is explicitly about the success of Luke’s legacy, and how that has inspired the galaxy.

No, the film is explicit in the success of Luke’s effort to inspire hope in a terrible situation he was party responsible for. This does not create a legacy of success, it creates a glimmer of hope in a legacy of failure.

If a police force sit on their behinds, and allow a group of criminals to go on a killing spree, they have failed in their duties, even if they belatedly see the error of their ways, and attempt to bring them to justice, or more accurately inspire others to do it for them.

I don’t really think it’s fair to blame the rise of the First Order on Luke.

And the films don’t even really suggest that. The point is that the dark side always comes back. You can’t always stop it from rearing it’s ugly head, what’s important is that there’s hope you can defeat it once again.

The majority of the responsibility isn’t on Luke. However, it is the responsibility of a Jedi to guard peace and justice. The dark side can always come back, but it is a Jedi´s responsibility to prevent that from happening, or if it manages to rise again, do everything in his or her power to defeat it. Luke didn´t live up to that responsibility.

And according to the dialog, Luke feels the rise of the dark side this time was his doing. He blames himself for Kylo Ren. In one respect he is right. The moment he discovered his nephew was strong in the force, he should have started training him. That Leia knows who he is indicates that he had some political role in the New Republic at one point. Or that he had taken over a chunk of the old Empire and his rule was known. How he influenced Ben Solo is not explained. But it is clear from the dialog that Luke waited to train Ben and by the time he started it was too late. Luke was left for dead and he headed out to find the something and ended up on Ahch-to. Luke clearly feels that the Jedi training techniques are flawed and don’t provide what some need to avoid the dark side. His first lesson to Rey is on balance and he freaks out when she doesn’t hesitate to explore the dark side. I think that fear he showed really is telling for how badly Ben’s fall hit him.

DrDre said:

SilverWook said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Collipso said:

DominicCobb said:

Collipso said:

Still talking about Luke, I’ll try to clear things up a little bit. I don’t really have a problem with Luke not living up to be the legend he was made out to be. I just don’t understand, for example, how did the legend originate. Like I said in a previous post, his victories were mostly personal and (should be) unknown to the rest of the galaxy, except for destroying the first Death Star. But I can see how a myth or some mystery feeling would grow around him, given that most people probably thought that the mysterious nature of his activities and his sad devotion to an ancient religion were suspicious and weird. And mysterious and wizardry. Anyway.

I don’t get why the tales of his bravery wouldn’t spread and balloon. And he had more victories than we saw in the films.

What tales of bravery? How he led the defense of Echo Base in Hoth and failed miserably? Or how he disappeared only to show up without a hand? Granted, Han Solo’s rescue is a big deal and was probably one of the greatest displays of Luke being a hero, but so what? The clone wars is full of badass moments and missions. Moreso than Han’s rescue. Then Luke basically defected in Endor, and I think the other rebels that didn’t know of his whereabouts were quite suspicious. And then he suddenly comes back! He’d eventually tell Han and Leia what happened, sure, but how the events in the Death Star II eventually led up to a legend is beyond me.

What clone wars moments? There’s only the battle of Geonosis, Coruscant and Utapau.

What I really have a problem with is how he died and ultimately failed his goal, failed his whole purpose in the original trilogy, which was to rebuild the Jedi Order. That makes him a failure imo. Not only that but the movie also makes him betray his character arc in the scene with Kylo with unconvincing explanation as to why, and also present him as some sort of fool for making the exact same mistake that his mentors did years before, mistakes that he was aware were made. And what pisses me off is that all of this happened just so that Rey could have the exact same journey as Luke, specially now that we have the exact same scenario we had in the original movies.

Luke didn’t fail, though. His goal was to become a Jedi (check) and to pass on what he learned (check). He will not be the last Jedi, and Rey won’t be a Jedi like him.

He did fail. Yes, becoming a Jedi was one of his goals, and he achieved that, but at the moment Darth Vader destroyed his beliefs, expectations, values, ideas of his purpose and the reason why he was fighting, his purpose and he himself became much bigger than just becoming a Jedi because his dad was one.

Do you think he passed on what he learned? Not to Rey, I don’t think. She has the books, but that’s about it. He taught her nothing, and the movie made that very clear. She might become a Jedi still, but not from or because of Luke.

Not only did he not teach her nothing, I don’t think he’s done teaching her. And yes, she is going to be a Jedi because of Luke, not just because of the few lessons he taught her, but because he inspired her (and the rest of the galaxy).

Anyway, after RotJ he built a Jedi Order that lasted for probably some 3-5 years, only for it to be destroyed. Another failure. And then he died. His death scene was pretty badass and beautiful, I’ll give you that, and it showed how awesome Luke Skywalker can be. But he still failed. I’m making it sound like that’s the problem - that he failed - but no. The problem is that he died a failure. It served no purpose, it just pissed on his character. Everything he tried to accomplish, accomplished and built was either destroyed or killed, including Luke himself.

He could have just… survived. Been able to go on, to teach a new generation, to learn from his failures rather than to die as one. But that was not allowed.

Did we even watch the same movie? The idea that Luke died a failure… clearly that was not what happened.

Mmm, let me see. Luke was instrumental in bringing peace and justice back to the galaxy. He wanted to train a new generation of Jedi. He made a mistake, and ended up failing his students, and by running away rather than fix that mistake, he allowed a second darkness to take over the galaxy. He is partly responsible for that. Luke’s legacy is one of failure. While he has provided hope for a future generation, it is now up to the next generation to fix his mess. Luke is like a guy with huge debts, who after refusing to pay them, dies just after providing his heirs the hope of paying off those debts in time. That is not a legacy of success in any shape or form.

By that logic, Obi Wan and Yoda are even bigger failures. 😉

They are failures for not recognizing the risk Anakin presented, and for failing to stop Palpatine, but they at least did everything in their power to reverse the situation. In my view Luke is a far bigger failure, for not even attempting to fix his mistake, and refusing to help even when he was asked in a most desperate hour. He came around it the end, but only when the situation had completely spun out of control, something that might not have happened, if he had acted like a true Jedi years earlier.

Well, this would devolve into a lot of prequel talk, but let’s just say that Obi-wan, Yoda, and Mace are responsible for Anakin’s fall. It was a failure to teach him how to handle his emotions. Luke thinks he made the same mistake with Ben, but the conversation between Han and Leia clearly shows that Ben was troubled long before training with Luke. Luke did fail to see the darkness in Ben much as the PT Jedi failed to sense Palpatine and Anakin’s weakness.

As for Luke’s fame post ROTJ, the galaxy would want to know how Vader and the Emperor died. And I’m sure Han and Leia had a hand in spreading the word. As has been pointed out before, this is the stuff of legends. But TFA made it clear that the events of the OT were widely known. Rey heard about them on Jakku.

Luke was a living legend, the man who destroyed the Death Star, redeemed Darth Vader, and witnessed the death of the Emperor, the very end of the empire. That would not be an easy role. But a necessary one to rebuild the Jedi. Palpatine had done a damn fine PR job of destroying the Jedi and undoing that would be necessary. Luke’s exploits would go a long way. So it makes perfect sense for the Galaxy to know about what went on in that tower on the second Death Star. So Luke becomes a legend. Eventually he takes on a dozen students only to have it all go to shit thanks to the darkness he didn’t see in his nephew until it was too late.

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

I guess it depends on your definition of fallen? I personally think the “Anakin died and became Vader” strict dichotomy is pretty silly.

It also depends whether we’re talking about before Luke entered the hut or after Luke searched Ben’s feelings.

So how do you define “fallen”? I don’t think having bad thoughts counts as fallen. But maybe that’s just me 😉

Luke doesn’t know Ben’s thoughts, he knows his feelings and his future, which I think are more telling.

Whether feelings or thoughts (the distinction isn’t terribly important as far as I’m concerned), perceiving the future is another matter. As Yoda said, “Difficult to see. Always in motion is the future.”

And if Luke perceives that Ben might in the future fall, that is still different from perceiving that he is fallen.

But that’s not what Luke perceives. What he sees is a future where Ben does terrible things which leads his to a momentary lapse of judgement.

There’s no question of “Ben might fall” Luke makes it explicit that Ben had either already fallen or was deep in the process.

What Luke sensed in Ben’s feelings:

“I saw darkness. I sensed it building in him. I’d seen it in moments during his training. But then I looked inside, and it was beyond what I ever imagined. Snoke had already turned his heart.”

What Luke saw in Ben’s future:

“He would bring destruction, pain, death, and the end of everything I love because of what he will become.”

Saying Luke merely sensed Ben’s “bad thoughts” is dramatically underselling the situation.

When you say “that’s not what Luke perceives,” that’s not true unless you’re saying the future is certain. And we know it isn’t.

I’m saying Luke doesn’t see a future where Ben might fall because he’s already at that point. What he sees in the future is something far more horrifying than just the simple “Ben might fall.”

Your argument is that the vision Luke beheld was horrifying. My rhetoric was more tame (antihyperbole!) but I didn’t deny that it was a terrible thing to behold.

No, saying what Luke felt was simply bad thoughts is hyperbole. An exaggerated statement doesn’t have to be making something out to be bigger than it is, it can go the inverse too.

What a lot of us have trouble accepting is that Luke accepted what he saw, especially after the fact. “Snoke had already turned his heart,” means what? In large part, our appreciation for Luke is perhaps supposed to make it really meaningful. But there’s so much work being done in that line that many don’t buy.

“Snoke had already turned his heart” means exactly what it sounds like. That’s not a vision of the future in motion, that’s Luke’s perception of Ben’s current situation in that moment. I don’t know how you can disregard that. As for accepting the vision of the future? Did he really accept it as gospel or was it just something that briefly sparked a horribly misguided idea in his mind? The film would suggest the latter.

If Snoke turned Ben’s heart, that calls out for answers to why and how. I recall discussions in this forum (before TLJ) on how lacking in credibility it was that Luke could realistically have been convinced to turn to the dark side in the OT. That seems an entirely reasonable argument and I’m fairly convinced by it. There just wasn’t enough established in the movie to explain why Luke would turn.

I’ve made a similar argument, but it’s not that I don’t believe it’s possible that Luke could turn (I think they set it up quite well in ESB), I just think they dropped the ball when it came to exploring the temptation Luke should be facing throughout ROTJ.

In TLJ, we’re not given anything except Luke’s assurance that Ben was lost. We don’t know what Snoke could have possibly done to take Ben beyond the point of no return. I’m not ignoring Luke’s statement, I’m saying it doesn’t really explain anything.

Why should we have anymore than that? We don’t need to know anything more about that for the purposes of this story.

It does matter for the the credibility of this story and the characterizations. It’s strange to me that you would advocate for a movie showing as little as possible. Efficient storytelling has its virtues but if one is to accept that Snoke had an iron grip on Ben (and that Luke, of all people believed it) it calls out for more. If you can see how ROTJ dropped the ball, I don’t know how that isn’t apparent here.

I can accept that Luke saw something so horrible that raw defensive instincts kicked in. Others here have a harder time with that, but it makes sense to me. Note that is different than Luke concluding that Ben was already fallen.

So you refuse to accept a fact that the film presents then?

When it comes to a story, saying that one “refuses to accept a fact” is a strange statement. Stories are not facts that must be believed. A good story makes itself credible. If there are holes or poorly established elements, that’s the story’s problem. I’m not trying to challenge anyone’s enjoyment of the film, but there are gaps that don’t work for many of us.

This is not the story of how Ben was tempted to the dark side. He’s already Kylo Ren at the start of the film. I don’t know why you don’t see the distinction there. Yeah, we’re asked to take Snoke turning Ben to the dark side as a given. Why is that so hard to accept? I really don’t get why you won’t.

What I am addressing is Luke’s actions and thought processes. You’ve not seen me contest Ben’s turn to the dark side. That Ben was being tempted is established and accepted. Glad we cleared that up. An issue we have been discussing is whether Luke could have done something to save Ben. Specifically we are dealing with a scene that was shown from the past that is supposed to inform our understanding of both Luke and Ben. I have no trouble believing that after leaving Luke for dead Ben finally ran into the arms of Snoke. What is in dispute is that Luke concluded from Ben’s feelings alone that Ben was beyond his ability/desire to help him. And that is thin gruel in my view.

Luke had an instinctual reaction to seeing Ben had turned to the dark side. If Luke had managed to sneak back out of Ben’s room without Ben realizing that he had ignited his saber, I have no doubt Luke would have tried to work things up differently.

And I see no reason why Luke wouldn’t have done after-the-fact what you think Luke would have done absent the confrontation. As opposed to Luke concluding that night that Ben was already fallen and beyond his ability to help him, as was insisted upon in the movie.

As I’ve said, I don’t think the question in Luke’s mind is whether or not Ben is irredeemable, but whether Luke has the ability to redeem him.

As we wind down here, let me agree Luke’s ability (or at least belief in his ability) to save Ben/Kylo is the question.

What doesn’t make sense is that Luke would give up afterward. And this goes again to the idea that Ben is lost and yet having no idea why that is. It begs for an explanation of exactly what Snoke did and of what Ben did to become beyond hope.

No and no. Luke didn’t quite give up, from his perspective going to the island to die and let the Jedi Order die with him was his solution to the problem (however misguided, of course). And I don’t quite think that Luke thinks Ben is “beyond hope,” he just doesn’t think he can help him.

And I like “antihyperbole,” AKA understatement which is not a synonym of “hyperbole” although a similar concept.

The question is why Luke thinks he can’t help Ben.

Because of the way he failed him. I don’t think Ben is quite open to the kind of strategy Luke took with his father.

Back to the real question, again. We can only guess at what influence Luke might have had with Ben. In what way did Luke fail Ben? Simply that he didn’t see Snoke’s influence? Not saying that isn’t bad, but it’s more negligence than anything.

Um, he almost killed him? I don’t think Ben would be so willing to talk after that.

You’d be surprised how far an apology can go. I’m sure there’s even a Greeting Card line in the Star Wars universe: “Sorry for almost killing you in your sleep with a [blaster/lightsaber/thermal detonator].”

Ben/Kylo wanted nothing more than to kill Luke. Luke knew confronting him from that point on wasn’t going to be any sort of peaceful encounter. Luke had some soul searching to do and ultimately came to the conclusion that trying to confront Kylo again would only make matters worse. So he decided it was time for him, and the Jedi, to end.

Was this the right decision to make? No, of course not. But I totally see his reasoning. Luke has failed Ben and his best friends in the worst way possible. He put his trust in the force and it lead him to almost do an unspeakable thing. He thought he could bring back the glory of the Jedi Order but he only managed to bring about the same sort of tragedy that befell is merely a few decades ago. Of course Luke is going to have a crisis of faith in the force, the Jedi, and himself.

This argument works a whole lot better than saying Luke determined that what he sensed in Ben indicated Ben was already fallen and beyond Luke’s ability to save him. That narrative strikes me as untrue. That Luke had a crisis of faith and behaved cowardly is something I can agree with you on. Whether I like that idea or not, it works in this story. And when Luke tells Rey that Ben was already fallen, that is Luke’s cowardice and shame speaking - as opposed to a fact we the audience must accept.

I’m not sure if you’re misconstruing the argument, if you forgot how we got to this point, or if we genuinely have not been on the same page. The idea of whether or not Ben has already fallen is important in regards to Luke igniting the lightsaber, not whether Luke should give up on Ben after he burns his temple.

Luke says Snoke had already turned Ben’s heart and I still don’t see any reason to doubt that. (Unless we’re going back to how do you define “fallen”? in which case I don’t think being “fallen” or having your heart turned means you’re irredeemable, and I think Luke agrees.) Just because Luke says that doesn’t mean he believes Ben is incapable of being saved. Obviously I think in that brief moment where he ignites the lightsaber Luke does thinks that Ben is beyond hope, but of course that moment passes “like a fleeting shadow.”

As I said, I can understand Luke igniting his lightsaber on raw instinct when he senses super bad feelings in Ben. To my mind, being “fallen” requires something more. In ROTJ it appeared that killing Vader might do it for Luke. In the prequels, it was Anakin betraying Windu and giving himself over to the dark side for selfish reasons. In my mind, there should be something that seals the deal. If Luke only sensed really super dark feelings, that doesn’t seem like proof that he is already fallen.

Okay, so it really does go back to “what is your definition of fallen?” I definitely disagree with you there, I’ve never really thought that you needed commit an action that seals the deal in ‘turning your heart.’ Although I do think committing an action like the kind you mean can further your devotion to the dark and snuff out some of the light (like killing Han was supposed to do) or it can be the impetus for a turn to the dark. But I don’t think it’s necessary and I think it’s possible to give yourself to the dark side in spirit alone.

We have seen that Kylo’s commitment to the dark side appears a little shaky. And yet before committing a single act (that we know of), Luke was convinced Ben was - by any reasonable Jedi measure - gone, replaced by Dark Kylo Ren.

That’s the thing though, I think Obi-wan’s assessment that Anakin was replaced by Darth Vader was inaccurate, I don’t think that’s really how that works, and I think Luke agrees considering he thought there was still good in Vader. Luke only considered Ben too far gone in that brief instinctual moment where he ignited his lightsaber.

No, not just in that moment. In TLJ he believes that neither he it Rey can bring him back.

I posted that long block of text because it covers the scenes that relate to the current discussions. In TFA we hear from his parents that Kylo was already going down the dark path when he stared training with Luke. He wanted to be on that path. That is a frequent theme with him. He wants to be dark. I think it is safe to say that Luke saw that and knew it was too late.

There is a lot in both movies that reinforces that Kylo is on the path he wants to be. He idolizes Vader. I think this emphasis plus what Luke said is enough to make it a fact that it was too late before Luke ever entered Ben’s hut.

Luke’s hubris and ultimate failure is in thinking he could overcome something like that. His success had gone to his head. For some reason he waited until Ben was old enough to run into problems to start his training. And then Kylo was not only fallen, but he took some of Luke’s other students and killed the rest. How could Luke fail worse than that. All of his students gone in one night. Luke failed in so many ways that don’t seem all that significant until you add them together.

I think the answer to this is to look at what BOTH movies are telling us.

Han: I know every time … every time you look at me you’re reminded of him
Leia: You think I want to forget him? I want him back.
Han: There is nothing more we could have done. There’s too much Vader in him.
Leia: That’s why I wanted him to train with Luke but… I just never should have sent him away. That’s when I lost him. That’s when I lost you both.
Han: We both had to deal with it in our own way. I went back to the only thing I was ever any good at.
Leia: We both did.
Han: We lost our son, forever.
Leia: No, it was Snoke. He seduced our son to the dark side. But we can still save him. Me… you.
Han: If Luke couldn’t reach him how could I.
Leia: Luke is a Jedi. You’re his father. There’s still light in him, I know it.

Rey: Master Skywalker, we need you to bring the Jedi back because Kylo Ren is strong with the dark side of the force. Without the Jedi we won’t stand a chance against him.
Luke: What do you know about the force?
Rey: It’s a power that Jedi have that let’s them control people and make things float.
Luke: Impressive. Every word in that sentence was wrong. Lesson one, sit here, legs crossed. The force is not a power you have. It’s not about lifting rocks. It’s the energy between all things. The tension… the balance that binds the universe together.
Rey: Ok. But what is it?
Luke: Close your eyes. Breathe. Now, reach out.
Rey literally reaches out her hand and Luke used a long leaf to tap her hand. Rey gasps.
Rey: I feel something.
Luke: Do you feel it?
Rey: Yes, I feel it.
Luke: That’s the force
Rey: Really?
Luke: Wow, it must be really strong with you.
Rey: Oh, I’ve never felt any…
Luke hits Rey’s hand with the leaf.
Rey: Ow!
Rey looks at him hurt and he looks back and her and then she realizes her mistake.
Rey: You meant reach out like… I’ll try again.
Luke: Breathe. Just breathe. Reach out with your feelings. What do you see?
Rey: The island. Life. Death and decay that feeds new life. Warmth. Cold. Peace. Violence.
Luke: And between it all?
Rey: Balance and energy. A force.
Luke: And inside you?
Rey: And inside me, that same force.
Luke: And this is the lesson. That force does not belong to the Jedi. To say that if the Jedi die the light dies is vanity. Can you feel that.
Rey: There’s something else. Beneath the island. A Place. A dark place.
Luke: Balance - powerful light, powerful darknes.
Rey: It’s cold.
The rock breaks and the pebbles on the rock start to float.
Rey: It’s calling me.
Luke: Resist it, Rey. Rey! Rey!
A wave blows up through the whole and breaks Rey’s concentration. Rey gasps for breath.
Luke: You went straight to the dark.
Rey: That place was trying to show me something.
Luke: It offered something you needed… and you didn’t even try to stop yourself.
Rey: I didn’t see you. Nothing from you. You’ve closed yourself off from the force. Of course you have.
Luke: I’ve seen this raw strength only once before, in Ben Solo. I didn’t scare me enough then, it does now.

Luke: Lesson two. Now that they’re extinct, the Jedi are romanticized, deified. But if you strip away the myth and look at their deeds, the legacy of the Jedi is failure, hypocrisy, hubris.
Rey: That’s not true.
Luke: At the height of their powers, they allowed Darth Sideous to rise, create the Empire and wipe them out. It was a Jedi master who was responsible for training and creation of Darth Vader.
Rey: And a Jedi who saved him. Yes, the most hated man in the galaxy, but you saw there was conflict inside him. You believed that he wasn’t gone, that he could be turned.
Luke: And I became a legend. For many years there was balance, and then I saw… Ben, my nephew, with that mighty Skywalker blood. In my hubris I thought I could train him, I could pass on my strengths. Han was… Han about it, but Leia… trusted me with her son. I took him and a dozen students and began a training temple. By the time I realized I was no match for the darkness rising in him, it was too late.
Rey: What happened?
Luke: I went to confront him and he turned on me. (Vision - Luke: Ben, No! - shows unarmed Luke and unarmed Ben maing the hut collapse) He must have thought I was dead. When I came too, the temple was burning. He had vanished with a handful of my students and slaughtered the rest. Leia blamed Snoke, but it was me. I failed… Because I was Luke Skykwalker, Jedi Master… a legend.
Rey: The galaxy may need a legend, I need someone to show me my place in all this. And you didn’t fail Kylo. Kylo failed you. I won’t.

Rey: I’d rather not do this now.
Kylo: Yeah, me too.
Rey: Why did you hate your father? Do you have something? A towel or something you can put on? Why did you hate your father? Give me an honest answer. You had a father who loved you, he gave a damn about you.
Kylo: I didn’t hate him.
Rey: They why?
Kylo: Why what? Why what? Say it.
Rey: Why did you… why did you kill him? I don’t understand.
Kylo: No, Your parents threw you away like garbage.
Rey: They didn’t.
Kylo: They did, but you can’t stop needing them. It’s your greatest weakness. Looking for them every where. Inn Han Solo, now in Skywalker. Did he tell you what happened that night?
Rey: Yes!
Kylo: No. He had sensed my power, as he senses yours, and he feared it. (Vision of Kylo waking up to Luke holding his green lightsaber and Luke striking and Kylo defending and then collapsing the hut).
Rey: Liar.
Kylo: Let the past die. Kill it if you have to. That is the only way to become who you were meant to be.

Rey: I should have felt trapped or panicked, but I didn’t. It didn’t go on forever. I knew it was leading somewhere… and at the end it would show me what I came to see. (let me see… my parents… please) I thought I’d find answers here. I was wrong. I never felt so alone.
Kylo: you are not alone.
Rey: Neither are you.
Luke: (from a distance) Rey!
Rey: It isn’t too late.
Kylo and Rey touch then Luke appears and the connection breaks.
Luke: Stop!
Rey: Is it true? Did you try to murder him?
Luke: Leave this island now!
Rey: Stop! Stop! Did you do it? Did you create Kylo Ren?
Luke and Rey fight until Rey grabs the saber and Luke stumbles.
Rey: Tell me the truth.
Luke: I saw darkness. I’d sensed it building in him. I’d seen it in moments during his training. But then I looked inside and it was beyond what I’d ever imagined. (Vision - sound of screaming people) Shoke had already turned his heart. He would bring destruction and pain and death and the end of everything I loved because of what he will become and for the briefest of pure instinct I thought I could stop it. (Vision - luke draws and ignites his green lightsaber). It passed like a fleeting shadow and I was left with shame and with consequence and the last thing I saw were the eyes of a frighted boy whose master had failed him. (Vision - Kylo sees Luke and they lock eyes and then Kylo draws his blue saber and strikes at Luke. Luke: Ben, No. Then Kylo brings down the hut)
Rey: You failed him by thinking his choice was made. It wasn’t. There’s still conflict in him. If he would turn from the dark side that could shift the tide. This could be how we win.
Luke: This is not going to go the way you think.
Rey. It is. Just now, when we touched hands, I saw his future. As solid as I’m seeing you. If I go to him, Ben Solo will turn.
Luke: Rey, don’t do this.
Rey stands and offers him the lightsaber. Luke looks away
Rey: Then he’s our last hope.
The Millenium Falcon flies off. Luke changes to his white robes, goes to the tree and ignites a torch, then sees Yoda
Luke: Master Yoda.
Yoda: Young Skywalker.
Luke: I’m ending all of this, the tree, the texts, the Jedi. I’m going to burn it down.
Luke goes to the tree but hesitates.
Yoda: Hm.
Yoda raises a finger. From the clouds above, lightning strikes the tree and it catches fire.
Yoda: [laughing] Ah, Skywalker, missed you have I.
Luke tries to go in to save the text but a gout of flame pushes him back.
Luke: So it is time for the Jedi Order to end.
Yoda: Time it is… for you to look past a pile of old books.
Luke: The sacred Jedi texts!
Yoda: Oo? Read them have you?
Luke: Well… I…
Yoda: Page turners they were not. Yes, yes, yes, wisdom they held, but that library contained nothing that the girl Rey does not already posses. Hm. Skywalker, still looking to the horizon. Here, here, now, the need in front your nose. Hm!
Luke: I was weak, unwise.
Yoda: Lost Ben Solo you did. Lose Rey we must not.
Luke: I can’t be what she needs me to be.
Yoda: Heed my words not did you. Pass on what you have learned. Strength, mastery, hm! But weakness, folly, failure also. Yes failure most of all. The greatest teacher failure is. Hm. Luke, we are what they grow beyond. That is the true burden of all masters.

Leia: Luke. I know what you are going to say. I changed my hair.
Luke: It looks nice that way. Leia, I’m sorry.
Leia: I know. I know you are. I’m just glad you’re here… at the end.
Luke: I came to face him, Leia, and I can’t save him.
Leia: I held out hope for so long, but I know my son is gone.
Luke: No one is every really gone.

Well, that is as close as I can get barring an official script

The key is Ben’s fall. The dialog from TFA between Han and Leia shows he was heading down the dark path before Luke ever started training him. Snoke had already gotten to him. Luke believed he could correct it by following the Jedi training. But he saw hints during training but never imagined that it was too late. Ben had used the training to find others like him and they killed the rest and fled after the hut incident.

One of the keys is to see how Hammil acts the scenes. Luke is not crushed because a student turned. He is crushed because it was his nephew, Leia’s son. He is crushed because he was sure he could stop it but it was already too late. Leia rightly blamed snoke, but for the man who had saved his father, the most hated and evil man the galaxy had known (they didn’t really know Sideous), to lose his nephew like that is a blow that he couldn’t take. In the movies he says he went to the island to die, but, like other Jedi masters and like himself in regards to the full truth about the fall of Ben Solo, I doubt we got the real truth. I think he went to Ach-to looking for answers and when he didn’t find them in the greatest wisdom of the Jedi, he sank his X-wing and decided to live the rest of his life in solitude. We saw in ANH how he hungered to learn anything about his father. Owen and Beru tied him to Tatooine and only their deaths set him on the path. He cherishes family. We saw that again as he talked with Leia in ROTJ. That was the trigger that lead to him channeling the dark side to defeat Vader. Family is what turned Anakin both to the dark side and back again. Luke could not save his nephew and was crushed. He did not fear the raw power Ben had shown (contrary to what Kylo tells Rey) but he fears that same raw power in Rey.

So, given the above dialog (that the way the lines are delivered), the fall of Ben Solo was set in motion before he ever went to study with his uncle and Luke was no match for the darkness that Snoke had sparked. The fall of Ben Solo was a certainty, not a maybe. He had already fallen, he just hadn’t revealed himself yet. From his worship of Vader’s helmet, and the dialog in TFA, he wanted to follow his grandfather into darkness. And Luke completely missed all of it, like the PT Jedi missed Darth Sideous right under their noses. When you put everything together, Luke’s failure is epic. Luke should have been training Kylo from his childhood, not when Han and Leia were having problems with him. There is a reason the Jedi started the training at a very young age.

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

yhwx said:

It’s amazing how people have selective amnesia. Yes, Luke did throw away his saber in ROTJ, but a few seconds before, he was about to kill Vader. And a few minutes before that, he’s prepared to “strike down” the Emperor, only to have his faithful apprentice intercept the attack.

I would call that a character arc. These things didn’t happen in a random order. Luke get’s goaded into using force, first by Palps, then by Vader to the point of almost killing Vader. Luke realizes he’s about to follow in his father footsteps, and composes himself, tossing away his lightsaber. He’s learned a valuable lesson, and passed the test. A test he then again fails in TLJ.

How did he fail that same test? Aren’t his actions just consistent with how he was portrayed in ROTJ? A person doesn’t stop making mistakes just because they make the right decision one time. As you pointed out, the Emperor goaded Luke into striking. Vader goaded Luke into striking. He seems to like striking and be easily goaded and then later comes to his senses. How then is going to Ben’s hut to confront him and freaking out about how far he has fallen and igniting his light saber out of character. It seems totally in character by the very example you have provided. That is his MO. React on instinct and then let his wisdom rein him in. You have just proven with your own examples that Luke’s actions in Ben’s hut are 100% consistent with ROTJ Luke.

I don’t agree. The idea of a character arc is, that people make a journey, usually learning from their mistakes, such that they don’t make that mistake again. In TESB Luke drew his weapon first when confronted with Vader, itching for a fight. In ROTJ Luke had to be goaded into a fight, and he resisted the Emperor for a long time, despite the real threat and suffering he faced. Luke learned from his experience in TESB, as he learned from his experience in ROTJ to finally become a Jedi. So, after ROTJ Luke should have grown beyond such mistakes in my view. The situation with the possible future of Ben Solo pales in comparison to Luke’s previous real experiences from my point of view, and so he should have been able to control himself. Let’s not forget Luke has had at least two decades to learn from his experiences before his fallout with young Ben, and to grow as a Jedi Master. Yet, TLJ seems to suggest the opposite happened. Luke regressed, and turned out to have become a far worse Jedi than Obi-Wan or Yoda, despite growing beyond their dogma in ROTJ.

When did we see Luke actually learn from his mistakes? We see him make similar mistakes over and over again and we never see him really grow past it. And why should the fall of his nephew not shake him to the core? You are building Luke up as a legend and not seeing the flaws he carried right to the end of ROTJ. When Luke threw down his saber and faced the Emperor he knew that he was likely to die. The Emperor didn’t goad him any further, he just tried to kill him. But there is no big huge change in Luke’s personality so him making a similar mistake due to the horror of seeing how far his nephew had fallen already could be shock enough for him to act on instinct over intelligence for a moment. I don’t know why that is so hard to believe of his character. His arc was to redeem his father, not to be the perfect Jedi.

DominicCobb said:

TV’s Frink said:

What took you so long?

I finally went to sleep and woke up and realized I was running in circles and no one was following me.

I think you, I and Frink might be on the same page on this one.

DrDre said:

yhwx said:

It’s amazing how people have selective amnesia. Yes, Luke did throw away his saber in ROTJ, but a few seconds before, he was about to kill Vader. And a few minutes before that, he’s prepared to “strike down” the Emperor, only to have his faithful apprentice intercept the attack.

I would call that a character arc. These things didn’t happen in a random order. Luke get’s goaded into using force, first by Palps, then by Vader to the point of almost killing Vader. Luke realizes he’s about to follow in his father footsteps, and composes himself, tossing away his lightsaber. He’s learned a valuable lesson, and passed the test. A test he then again fails in TLJ.

How did he fail that same test? Aren’t his actions just consistent with how he was portrayed in ROTJ? A person doesn’t stop making mistakes just because they make the right decision one time. As you pointed out, the Emperor goaded Luke into striking. Vader goaded Luke into striking. He seems to like striking and be easily goaded and then later comes to his senses. How then is going to Ben’s hut to confront him and freaking out about how far he has fallen and igniting his light saber out of character. It seems totally in character by the very example you have provided. That is his MO. React on instinct and then let his wisdom rein him in. You have just proven with your own examples that Luke’s actions in Ben’s hut are 100% consistent with ROTJ Luke.

This invasion of privacy stuff is nonsense. Luke isn’t the NSA. Was it an “invasion of privacy” when Vader mind proved Luke in ROTJ?

Eh, yeah, Vader is the villain. Either way, Luke was fully awake and aware at that point in time, unlike Ben Solo.

And you think it isn’t a Jedi Master’s job to keep tabs on their students? Asleep or awake it doesn’t matter. Being the master implies consent to scan your students for hints of the dark side. From the setup we are given, it seems like Luke fell down on the job on this and had failed to keep tabs on his nephew and decided to correct it (again acting on instinct and then letting his wisdom fix things) by confronting him, found him asleep and took a peek (Yoda’s dialog in TESB indicates he was keeping tabs on Luke for years, likely both asleep and awake) as a master should do and was horrified at how far he had fallen and how complete it was. He had a vision of a possible future (ever in motion the future is) and ignited his lightsaber on instinct (as Ben taught him - “Let go your conscious self and act on instinct”) before his wisdom took over, but by then Ben was awake and the damage done. And Luke runs off (as Ben and Yoda did, and as he himself did in TESB and ROTJ) to find answers at the first Jedi Temple. His failure was not just in igniting his lightsaber, it was in failing to see the darkness in his nephew. I was failing Leia. For a man who grew up an orphan, found his father and sister, redeemed his father (and hopefully has conversed with his force ghost though that is pure conjection) and then fails his sister in the one thing she needed his help with… can you just imagine the level of anguish that would cause? He failed both of his living blood relatives. Not to mention his best friend.

It is not so much that I don’t respect your right to your opinion, it is that I am confused how you got there. Everything about the Luke from the OT that I grew up with points to this being a logical offshoot and a story that makes sense in setting up the ST.

DrDre said:

rodneyfaile said:

DrDre said:

rodneyfaile said:

DrDre said:

Ocrop27 said:

I see many people saying that TLJ deconstructs the myth of Star Wars. I think this is a valid interpretation, but not entirely true. In my view this movie tests the myth, yes, it creates terrible (and incredible) obstacles for the heroes, making them question what was once unquestionable. “dead heroes”, as Leia told Poe, reminding us that in fact not everything serves a divine purpose as we usually believe for these films.

But after the dark journey that was the TLJ, we have a much more powerful myth, in my opinion. One that goes beyond the old norm, because it does not abandon what has already been, it just puts to the test and adds the new concepts. Luke in Crait was real, he inspired the Galaxy, saved the resistance and faced his biggest mistake, Ben. He was a great hero, but still only a man capable of making mistakes.

All the characters in this movie have their truths tested and evolve from that. Just as the film itself tests the truths of the saga (as TESB and TPM did before). I agree that this film has a postmodern side, consequent of the time in which we live, but I do not think that it left the myth, only magnified.

You can’t have your cake and eat it. TLJ deconstructs the legend of Luke Skywalker, and turns him into the deeply flawed man Luke Skywalker. Luke then creates a new in-universe legend or myth of himself within the story. This is not the same as creating a myth for the benefit of the viewer. TLJ is a film about myth and legend, not a myth onto itself. If the OT is the story of how on the North Pole, there’s a mythical person called Santa Clause, who makes toys and then delivers them to children all around the world on Christmas Day, then TLJ is a story about a disillusioned fat old drunk, who tells a young girl, who’s come looking for the legend of Santa Clause, that he hates Christmas, and that Santa Clause doesn’t exist. After refusing to put on his red suit for the entire story, the old drunk redeems himself by donning the red suit one more time, and giving his greatest performance in the holiday parade, convincing children in the story one last time that Santa is real, before shuffling off the mortal coil. To summarize, a story about Santa Clause is not the same as a story about a guy playing Santa Clause.

I’d say that the legend of Santa is still intact.

Once you take off the beard and the suit, it becomes very hard to sell the reality of Santa Clause.

Santa just stopped believing in himself and even the concept of Christmas because he couldn’t decide if Ben was naughty or nice.

Eventually he forgives himself, learns from his mistakes, not only saves the day, but reaffirms the legend of Santa and the values of Christmas for a new generation.

No, Santa reaffirms the legend of Santa and the values of Christmas to the children in the story. However, us critics have already seen Santa without his beard and suit, so we won’t be fooled again.

The legend is perfectly intact. Your delusion of perfection is gone. That is the lesson Luke had to learn too.

Becoming a Jedi is a metaphore for reaching a state of enlightenment, an ideal. When Luke says I’m a Jedi, like my father before me, he has grown beyond himself, and beyond his father. That was Luke’s arc. The ST then destroys that arc, by having Luke forsake everything he once believed in, including the sister and friends he once would have protected at an cost. TLJ then has him pass on the baton to the next new hope, who again has to fight another Empire, and another fallen Jedi student with the aid of another group of rebels. In effect the ST has Luke take off his beard and red suit, then has him pass it on to Rey, and then expects us to believe Rey’s the real Santa Clause.

And I think we are down to the real issue with this statement. Luke reaching a state of enlightenment. Really? If that is Luke’s arc to you, that is great, but that really isn’t his arc. He is a Jedi, like his father before him. His father was flawed at still fallen at the moment he said that. He had reached a state of confidence and faced the most powerful force user in the galaxy. He knew he was about to die. His sacrifice is what turned Darth Vader back into Anakin Skywalker. In terms of a Jedi, Luke was facing the trials to become a knight and on the success of this, he became a Knight and master by virtue of being the only Jedi. I don’t think we can say he had reached the pinnacle of enlightenment. Enlightened yes, but not perfect. Not finished. He still had to journey on as Jedi Master and train a new batch, which Abrams gave us as an utter failure. Not just Kylo Ren, but the rest of his trainees killed or turned. He did what his masters before him did, retreated to regroup. But Luke ended up on Ach-to, finding the ancient Jedi texts and becoming disillusioned that he could do anything different a second time. How can he keep someone from falling to the dark side? He didn’t know. Then Rey came along and seems almost impervious to the dark side.

If we are going to be true to the hero’s journey, once a hero’s story is complete, it is left to the next generation for a new hero and their journey. In this case the hero becomes the mentor and as a fallen hero, is disillusioned. I understand why and I found it to be true to the character. I still think you are building more into the Luke of ROTJ than you should, but that is your choice.

I can’t help thinking that RJ followed the characters natural arc from where Abrams left them in TFA and did a superb job of putting them through second act tortures. It seems that what people aren’t liking is the setup that Abrams saddled the ST with rather than what RJ did with it. The jounts and acrs are just the continuation of their TFA journies. I found TFA to be very flawed and as I anslize the complains I keep finding the root cause lies in the last movie. Luke was left in exile with little explanation. We get an explanation that fits with the little TFA provided. Rey’s jouney is also a continuation. Nothing comes any easier in this film than the last but this time we dig into her parents issues. Poe, originally fated to die, now is groomed to be the new leader. Finn finally learns to adopt a cause snd stop running. And this part of the story is all about failure and how to grow past it. Nearly every character is faced with failure. They all grow from it. We can quibble about liking how each arc played out, but the arcs are there are they tie directly to the last film.

Collipso said:

yotsuya said:

Collipso said:

But I think a fairer comparison would be the US to the Empire, and not to the rebels.

I don’t think WWII is a good comparison - since the galaxy literally resented to a pre-ANH state, it’s simply US vs Vietnam all over again. But the impression I got from TFA and TLJ is that we have again the Empire with limitless resources and Vietnam, now instead of having a fleet, having a 50 year old ship.

But it hasn’t reverted to a pre ANH state. The First Order is just starting it’s campaign of conquest. They haven’t take over anything yet, except maybe the major hyperspace routes. Pre ANH, the Empire was at the height of its power. The Empire is Nazi Germany, even down to the helmets, stormtroopers, and how the Chancellor rose to power. Where we are at in the ST in terms of real world WWII, would be if the Nazis had risen again in Argentina and set out to conquer Europe all over again. They are at a severe disadvantage and it won’t be easy to do. They will meet with resistance in some corners. So it makes sense to compare it to the conquest of France. The First Order rose out on the Rim so they are far from their home systems and support.

I really don’t know why you guys are taking the First Order conquest of the galaxy as a done deal. There is plenty that says it isn’t. The word reigns really got you, didn’t it. I think it was hyperbole for effect. The rest of the crawl and the movie dialog all say it hasn’t happened yet, though it is in process. If it hasn’t happened it can still be stopped. And even if they take some of the easier systems, that leaves the harder ones that Leia and the resistance can coordinate into an effective opposition.

What Resistance are they going to face? Those non existent allies that didn’t show up, even though they knew that it was Leia’s last stand? I believe that if we had other major players in this chess game for the galaxy, the movie would’ve shown them, instead of telling us they’re literally not answering to a desperate SOS.

They aren’t answering because the First Order is invading. It’s right there in the movie. Would you answer her distress call and risk your planet to save a tiny band of stragglers? I think not.

Collipso said:

But I think a fairer comparison would be the US to the Empire, and not to the rebels.

I don’t think WWII is a good comparison - since the galaxy literally resented to a pre-ANH state, it’s simply US vs Vietnam all over again. But the impression I got from TFA and TLJ is that we have again the Empire with limitless resources and Vietnam, now instead of having a fleet, having a 50 year old ship.

But it hasn’t reverted to a pre ANH state. The First Order is just starting it’s campaign of conquest. They haven’t take over anything yet, except maybe the major hyperspace routes. Pre ANH, the Empire was at the height of its power. The Empire is Nazi Germany, even down to the helmets, stormtroopers, and how the Chancellor rose to power. Where we are at in the ST in terms of real world WWII, would be if the Nazis had risen again in Argentina and set out to conquer Europe all over again. They are at a severe disadvantage and it won’t be easy to do. They will meet with resistance in some corners. So it makes sense to compare it to the conquest of France. The First Order rose out on the Rim so they are far from their home systems and support.

I really don’t know why you guys are taking the First Order conquest of the galaxy as a done deal. There is plenty that says it isn’t. The word reigns really got you, didn’t it. I think it was hyperbole for effect. The rest of the crawl and the movie dialog all say it hasn’t happened yet, though it is in process. If it hasn’t happened it can still be stopped. And even if they take some of the easier systems, that leaves the harder ones that Leia and the resistance can coordinate into an effective opposition.

And you bring up a good parallel. TLJ is the Star Wars equivalent of Dunkirk. Except instead of a fleet taking the remnants of the army it is a single ship escaping with the survivors. So it makes sense that nothing is working out and everything they do fails. It fits with the narrative. So far from ignoring or trying to destroy the past, they are following GL’s example and using real world inspiration to tell a multi-part story. WWII has given the Star Wars saga a lot to work with.

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

Collipso said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

But at the end of TESB we are left with Han frozen and the rebellion baseless. In TLJ we are left with the characters intact but the Resistance in shambles, but with hope. But in TESB, we have a galaxy wide Empire that is strong and unwavering. In TLJ, we have a First Order just beginning its conquest, not yet cemented or truly in power yet. The crawl uses the word reigns, but I take that to mean there is no force to oppose them rather than they have actually taken over anything and the rest of the text of the crawl agrees with that as does the movie dialog. It also provides a reason why Leia’s call was not answered. But the final scene in the stable shows that Luke had again brought hope and if word has reached Canto Bight, it will spread across the galaxy and give courage to those who want to resist the First Order’s conquest.

Yes, but that’s where our interpretations differ. TLJ makes a strong case, that the FO is a pretty much unstoppable force. Apart from the crawl, there’s the statement in the film, that the FO will control all major systems in weeks. This might not be very credible, but this is the message the film tries to get across. Then there’s the fact, that the Resistance/rebellion is decimated. People might be inspired, but it is hope without substance, wishful thinking at best. It is a spark that has to evaporate an ocean of bad. It may turn into a great big fire, but it may also be extinguished. If the latter is not the case, there’s no more tension in the film, as the heroes will prevail no matter what. The situation at the end of TESB is quite different. The Rebel Alliance may be without a base, but it has a fleet and personel. It has a real hope of defeating the Empire, more than just inspiration. There are unresolved story threads, like what will become of Han Solo? Is Darth Vader really Luke’s father? Is the Emperor really so powerful, that he can boss around Darth Vader? What is left to resolve after TLJ? I would say very little, other than the rebellion has to somehow reform, and beat the FO.

I tend to agree with this. “So this is how liberty dies. With thunderous applause” we had to wait 20 years for any sort of resistance or rebellion to rise again the Empire. Rebels has established that it happened more or less at the same time, with several cells rebelling in several places. But that was 15 years after RotS. Unless we have a huge time jump now, it’s going to be hard to have a huge showdown RotJ-style in IX and make it believable. But I hope they pull it off if they decide to go for it.

I wonder if they’re going to do something different for IX that not the final Rebels vs Empire and Rey vs Kylo confrontation. I really hope so.

The big difference. At the end of ROTS, you have the long established Galactic Republic turn into the first Galactic Empire. That means all the institutions, all the structure, everything remains in place and there is just a change at the top. In the ST, we have the capitol of the new Republic destroyed along with the fleet. The First Order is moving in (present action, not yet completed) so they will have to come in and establish a new structure and build it from scratch. On some world they may just be able to step into the Republic’s shoes, other they will have to fight to gain control. They cannot just walk into the role of the Republic like the Emperor did in ROTS. So the situation is entirely different. If Leia can raise a fleet in time, they could still stop the First Order from gaining any real power in the remains of the Republic and many of the Republic world will likely form a new govenment on another world. There is no easy path here like the Emperor spent so many years arranging for himself. The First Order was always about conquest of the new Republic while the Empire was about subjugation of the extant old Republic.

It will not take 20 years to gather allies to fight back. It could happen in weeks or months and be realistic.

How? It took the Allies three years to mount an attack against the Axis powers in WWII, who like the FO conquered continental Europe in a matter of weeks. The allies were mostly sovereign nations with their military power intact. The Resistance is in ruins. Even if they still have allies, it takes years to form and build an organisation with a unified agenda. The weeks or months prognosis is completely unrealistic even in the GFFA.

Um… that is one front of one war. It took 4 months for the US to mount the Doolittle Raid on Tokyo. The battle of Midway was 7 months to the day from Pearl Harbor. By the time D-day happened half the battles in the Pacific had been fought. And you are talking about a major invasion of occupied territory. That is not the case as we leave the story in TLJ. The Republic had a fleet, but unless they were absolutely crazy, so did many of the worlds of the Republic. Where is the Mon Calamari fleet? And there are bound to be others. And if you think they aren’t out there, then why did Leia send that message? When you consider all the pieces given to us in TLJ, the First Order invasion is not going to be met without a fight. And an invasion force is only good until it is spread too thin.

Also, the other theaters of WWII were North Africa, Mediterranean, and the Eastern Front, all of which saw major activity prior to D-day. Also, the war was going for 2 years with plenty of activity on all fronts before Pearl Harbor. So your analogy is way way off.

Actually it is not, as many of the allied countries that mounted those attacks you mention were not invaded. As I stated these were sovereign nations with full military capabilities. As TLJ states, the FO will control all the major systems in weeks. You continue to ignore what is stated jn the film. This clearly implies these systems do not have the military capabilities to stop them. So, a rebellion would have to be mounted from occupied territory. As such the comparisson to the battle of Midway is way off.

Also in TLJ is the answer to your question. The arms dealers on Canto Bight will sell to anyone. That is what took 3 years to mount the invasion of Europe (that and the US was fully engaged in the pacific front). The US had to build up to a full war footing from the post WWI limits. But the US started bombing raids within months. They escalated constantly until they even dropped the camouflage paint schemes. So the implication that the First Order can fully occupy the entire galaxy is an overreach. Again, it is Rey who says weeks and she doesn’t give specifics. We don’t know what she was told or by whom. Now if Leia had said that it would be concrete, but coming from Rey, it is not a statement I take at face value. Some major systems that aren’t likely to put up a fight are the likely first targets. But as of this movie, nothing has been captured by the First Order as yet. So the First Order, in WWII terms, has taken out the Maginot Line, but hasn’t conquered France yet. It is May 10, 1940 and we have until June 4 before the cause is lost. If the Americans had joined before Pearl Harbor, maybe the invasion could have been halted. That is where TLJ leaves us if you want to put it in WWII terms. Will Luke’s stand bring the allies to stop the First Order? There is still time. Otherwise you are right, it will be 4 years later, on June 6, 1944, that the battle to retake the French Republic begins. I think there is still a chance to stop the First Order. But also to put it in WWII terms, we lost France early, but we never lost Great Britain or Russia who put up a fight the entire time. So if they parallel WWII as you suggest, then the First Order only stands to take over a relatively small section of the fallen New Republic while the rest puts up a fight. The rest being the allies that Leia was hoping to hear from. Given that RJ was watching WWII movies, I wouldn’t be surprised if IX pics up days or weeks after TLJ or skips forward a few years. Depends on the level of conflict they want to dish out to the galaxy.

Collipso said:

I think I went a bit too far saying 20 years would be the only acceptable time jump, but I think that 5-10 would be ideal.

IF the story requires a long term battle for control of the galaxy, you are probably right. If they are going the make the story more character driven, it might be a much shorter period of time and focus on stopping the First Order and dealing with Kylo Ren.

DominicCobb said:

There’s really nothing at the end of TLJ to suggest we won’t be getting the typical SW time jump. A lot can happen in a few years.

I’m expecting anything from a few hours to a few years.

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

Collipso said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

But at the end of TESB we are left with Han frozen and the rebellion baseless. In TLJ we are left with the characters intact but the Resistance in shambles, but with hope. But in TESB, we have a galaxy wide Empire that is strong and unwavering. In TLJ, we have a First Order just beginning its conquest, not yet cemented or truly in power yet. The crawl uses the word reigns, but I take that to mean there is no force to oppose them rather than they have actually taken over anything and the rest of the text of the crawl agrees with that as does the movie dialog. It also provides a reason why Leia’s call was not answered. But the final scene in the stable shows that Luke had again brought hope and if word has reached Canto Bight, it will spread across the galaxy and give courage to those who want to resist the First Order’s conquest.

Yes, but that’s where our interpretations differ. TLJ makes a strong case, that the FO is a pretty much unstoppable force. Apart from the crawl, there’s the statement in the film, that the FO will control all major systems in weeks. This might not be very credible, but this is the message the film tries to get across. Then there’s the fact, that the Resistance/rebellion is decimated. People might be inspired, but it is hope without substance, wishful thinking at best. It is a spark that has to evaporate an ocean of bad. It may turn into a great big fire, but it may also be extinguished. If the latter is not the case, there’s no more tension in the film, as the heroes will prevail no matter what. The situation at the end of TESB is quite different. The Rebel Alliance may be without a base, but it has a fleet and personel. It has a real hope of defeating the Empire, more than just inspiration. There are unresolved story threads, like what will become of Han Solo? Is Darth Vader really Luke’s father? Is the Emperor really so powerful, that he can boss around Darth Vader? What is left to resolve after TLJ? I would say very little, other than the rebellion has to somehow reform, and beat the FO.

I tend to agree with this. “So this is how liberty dies. With thunderous applause” we had to wait 20 years for any sort of resistance or rebellion to rise again the Empire. Rebels has established that it happened more or less at the same time, with several cells rebelling in several places. But that was 15 years after RotS. Unless we have a huge time jump now, it’s going to be hard to have a huge showdown RotJ-style in IX and make it believable. But I hope they pull it off if they decide to go for it.

I wonder if they’re going to do something different for IX that not the final Rebels vs Empire and Rey vs Kylo confrontation. I really hope so.

The big difference. At the end of ROTS, you have the long established Galactic Republic turn into the first Galactic Empire. That means all the institutions, all the structure, everything remains in place and there is just a change at the top. In the ST, we have the capitol of the new Republic destroyed along with the fleet. The First Order is moving in (present action, not yet completed) so they will have to come in and establish a new structure and build it from scratch. On some world they may just be able to step into the Republic’s shoes, other they will have to fight to gain control. They cannot just walk into the role of the Republic like the Emperor did in ROTS. So the situation is entirely different. If Leia can raise a fleet in time, they could still stop the First Order from gaining any real power in the remains of the Republic and many of the Republic world will likely form a new govenment on another world. There is no easy path here like the Emperor spent so many years arranging for himself. The First Order was always about conquest of the new Republic while the Empire was about subjugation of the extant old Republic.

It will not take 20 years to gather allies to fight back. It could happen in weeks or months and be realistic.

How? It took the Allies three years to mount an attack against the Axis powers in WWII, who like the FO conquered continental Europe in a matter of weeks. The allies were mostly sovereign nations with their military power intact. The Resistance is in ruins. Even if they still have allies, it takes years to form and build an organisation with a unified agenda. The weeks or months prognosis is completely unrealistic even in the GFFA.

Um… that is one front of one war. It took 4 months for the US to mount the Doolittle Raid on Tokyo. The battle of Midway was 7 months to the day from Pearl Harbor. By the time D-day happened half the battles in the Pacific had been fought. And you are talking about a major invasion of occupied territory. That is not the case as we leave the story in TLJ. The Republic had a fleet, but unless they were absolutely crazy, so did many of the worlds of the Republic. Where is the Mon Calamari fleet? And there are bound to be others. And if you think they aren’t out there, then why did Leia send that message? When you consider all the pieces given to us in TLJ, the First Order invasion is not going to be met without a fight. And an invasion force is only good until it is spread too thin.

Also, the other theaters of WWII were North Africa, Mediterranean, and the Eastern Front, all of which saw major activity prior to D-day. Also, the war was going for 2 years with plenty of activity on all fronts before Pearl Harbor. So your analogy is way way off.

Collipso said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

But at the end of TESB we are left with Han frozen and the rebellion baseless. In TLJ we are left with the characters intact but the Resistance in shambles, but with hope. But in TESB, we have a galaxy wide Empire that is strong and unwavering. In TLJ, we have a First Order just beginning its conquest, not yet cemented or truly in power yet. The crawl uses the word reigns, but I take that to mean there is no force to oppose them rather than they have actually taken over anything and the rest of the text of the crawl agrees with that as does the movie dialog. It also provides a reason why Leia’s call was not answered. But the final scene in the stable shows that Luke had again brought hope and if word has reached Canto Bight, it will spread across the galaxy and give courage to those who want to resist the First Order’s conquest.

Yes, but that’s where our interpretations differ. TLJ makes a strong case, that the FO is a pretty much unstoppable force. Apart from the crawl, there’s the statement in the film, that the FO will control all major systems in weeks. This might not be very credible, but this is the message the film tries to get across. Then there’s the fact, that the Resistance/rebellion is decimated. People might be inspired, but it is hope without substance, wishful thinking at best. It is a spark that has to evaporate an ocean of bad. It may turn into a great big fire, but it may also be extinguished. If the latter is not the case, there’s no more tension in the film, as the heroes will prevail no matter what. The situation at the end of TESB is quite different. The Rebel Alliance may be without a base, but it has a fleet and personel. It has a real hope of defeating the Empire, more than just inspiration. There are unresolved story threads, like what will become of Han Solo? Is Darth Vader really Luke’s father? Is the Emperor really so powerful, that he can boss around Darth Vader? What is left to resolve after TLJ? I would say very little, other than the rebellion has to somehow reform, and beat the FO.

I tend to agree with this. “So this is how liberty dies. With thunderous applause” we had to wait 20 years for any sort of resistance or rebellion to rise again the Empire. Rebels has established that it happened more or less at the same time, with several cells rebelling in several places. But that was 15 years after RotS. Unless we have a huge time jump now, it’s going to be hard to have a huge showdown RotJ-style in IX and make it believable. But I hope they pull it off if they decide to go for it.

I wonder if they’re going to do something different for IX that not the final Rebels vs Empire and Rey vs Kylo confrontation. I really hope so.

The big difference. At the end of ROTS, you have the long established Galactic Republic turn into the first Galactic Empire. That means all the institutions, all the structure, everything remains in place and there is just a change at the top. In the ST, we have the capitol of the new Republic destroyed along with the fleet. The First Order is moving in (present action, not yet completed) so they will have to come in and establish a new structure and build it from scratch. On some world they may just be able to step into the Republic’s shoes, other they will have to fight to gain control. They cannot just walk into the role of the Republic like the Emperor did in ROTS. So the situation is entirely different. If Leia can raise a fleet in time, they could still stop the First Order from gaining any real power in the remains of the Republic and many of the Republic world will likely form a new govenment on another world. There is no easy path here like the Emperor spent so many years arranging for himself. The First Order was always about conquest of the new Republic while the Empire was about subjugation of the extant old Republic.

It will not take 20 years to gather allies to fight back. It could happen in weeks or months and be realistic.

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

But at the end of TESB we are left with Han frozen and the rebellion baseless. In TLJ we are left with the characters intact but the Resistance in shambles, but with hope. But in TESB, we have a galaxy wide Empire that is strong and unwavering. In TLJ, we have a First Order just beginning its conquest, not yet cemented or truly in power yet. The crawl uses the word reigns, but I take that to mean there is no force to oppose them rather than they have actually taken over anything and the rest of the text of the crawl agrees with that as does the movie dialog. It also provides a reason why Leia’s call was not answered. But the final scene in the stable shows that Luke had again brought hope and if word has reached Canto Bight, it will spread across the galaxy and give courage to those who want to resist the First Order’s conquest.

Yes, but that’s where our interpretations differ. TLJ makes a strong case, that the FO is a pretty much unstoppable force. Apart from the crawl, there’s the statement in the film, that the FO will control all major systems in weeks. This might not be very credible, but this is the message the film tries to get across. Then there’s the fact, that the Resistance/rebellion is decimated. People might be inspired, but it is hope without substance, wishful thinking at best. It is a spark that has to evaporate an ocean of bad. It may turn into a great big fire, but it may also be extinguished. If the latter is not the case, there’s no more tension in the film, as the heroes will prevail no matter what. The situation at the end of TESB is quite different. The Rebel Alliance may be without a base, but it has a fleet and personel. It has a real hope of defeating the Empire, more than just inspiration. There are unresolved story threads, like what will become of Han Solo? Is Darth Vader really Luke’s father? Is the Emperor really so powerful, that he can boss around Darth Vader?

Well, let’s handle the last one first. While in TESB Vader got to shine, in ANH and ROTJ he is definitely subordinate to both Tarkin and Palpatine. So I don’t think there was any question that the Emperor was more powerful. The scene in TESB really makes that clear when Vader calls him master. And there is no more hope of the Rebellion defeating the Empire at the end of the movie than at the beginning. However, in TLJ, that hope of defeating the First Order is implicit in the storyline. In the beginning it is slim, at the end, after Luke’s great act, it is strong. True the Resistance has been nearly wiped out, but Leia has allies. They didn’t respond because no one knows where the First Order is going to begin their conquest. And the only statement about when the First Order will take over is made by Rey, who, unless she has seen it in a force vision, probably doesn’t have Leia’s knowledge of galactic politics and strategy. I’m sure Leia knows who is going to cave and who will fight and we don’t have her estimate of the situation, only Rey’s. So I prefer to be optimistic of the galactic situation. Not to mention that Kylo Ren had just assumed power and may not make the same decisions as Snoke and things may proceed differently with him in control. We also don’t know the size of their fleet, now down by two of its largest ships. In the OT the Jedi were not back until the Sail Barge. In this ST, they are back and the galaxy knows it. I would say that changes the picture from where the movie started.