yotsuya

DrDre said:

Yeah, like the people in the final scene of ROTJ SE hoped for, but didn’t get. ROTJ ended with Luke causing the destruction of the Emperor and his right hand man, a significant part of the Imperial fleet, and the Death Star. I’m sure that’s quite a bit more inspiring than Luke facing down the FO. If that doesn’t result in a clamor for democracy (one we’ve actually witnessed and after two decades of terror), I don’t know what will. Snoke was pulled out of thin air, and disappeared into thin air. Who knows how many Snokes are waiting in some unknown region of the galaxy. The ST has severely deflated the concept of victory not only for the OT, but for victories in the Star Wars universe as a whole. It has made any future victory, including the one we’re bound to get at the end of ep. IX, meaningless.

But who saw what Luke did? Did Luke destroy the second Death Star? No. No one saw Luke and no one can confirm what he did. It was Lando and Wedge who destroyed the second Death Star. Many would claim they would have succeeded without Luke’s help. Luke’s role was the redemption of his father (also something the Galaxy at large would not know about). What Luke did in TLJ was public, in front of a large audience (most of it being the First Order so of limited usefulness) and we know the word got out.

And while the head has been cut off from the Republic, the First Order has not conquered the galaxy. They are trying to conquer the galaxy which is a much different thing. The galaxy free of the Empire still stands. A few worlds might have fallen under First Order control in the days since the Republic capitol and fleet were destroyed, but he question of whether they are the only ships capable of defense and if any of the planets being attacked can repel the attack remains to be seen. And in a vast galaxy, there is no way the First Order can have conquered everything in the days that have passed in the story.

DrDre said:

chyron8472 said:

Where I’m at with it is this:

Do you want to like the film? Yes or No?

Constantly picking it apart for why it’s stupid, unoriginal, inferior, or whatever else doesn’t enhance the viewing experience. It doesn’t increase my liking for it nor the franchise. I would rather find reasons to enjoy it, and focus on them; and if I don’t enjoy it, I’d rather just move along as though these aren’t the droids I’m looking for and find something else to enjoy instead.

Sure, there are criticisms to be made, but once the horse is dead there is no reason to keep beating it.

Talking for myself, I just like discussing Star Wars the good and the bad. I don’t feel like having to find reasons to enjoy it, or not to enjoy it. You either like it, or you don’t, or you’re on the fence.

I have very much enjoyed this thread. It has made me think a great deal. The complaints have made me dig into the movie and pick it apart. I don’t expect my comments will meet with complete agreement, only make other people think. I think I know Star Wars better for all the various opinions. I think that every film has to be taken on its own merit, but when part of a series, things need to fit. I think I like TFA more after TLJ because I see the potential. After this conversation, I see even more potential. I hope I am right that they have a plan for this trilogy (not so much all the beats of the story, but where it is headed). But I also fear where Abrams will take it. He would be my last choice to finish this trilogy. I wish he had a script he was working off of. There was a script (or at least treatment) for IX. I hope they stick with the ending, even after rewriting it after Carrie’s passing.

Though a thought just occurred to me. Abrams does have a TV background so he may take up what RJ did and carry it forward. We may yet see the answers he intended to a couple of questions, but I don’t think those questions are important to the saga. I don’t think they ever were. More likely to be important to the characters.

First, what is the basis for Star Wars? While Lucas used Campbell’s mythical hero’s journey to craft the characters and a lot of the story, Star Wars is really based off of Flash Gordon, Buck Rogers, Foundation, Dune, and a host of others, not to mention some solid, real world history. But even if you go back to the classic myths, what is one thing that holds true for each and every inspriation? Victories don’t last. Flash fought Ming over and over again. Buck Rogers had a new foe with every adventure. The Foundation faced a critical crisis generation after generation. Dune had crisis after crisis, often costing characters their lies. And in mythology, every victory lasted until it was time to tell another story. How many victories did Hercules have? What was always going to be true of a sequel - things were going to fall apart.

So, what is the setup we have now? Things fell apart. The Republic never got strong (a very realistic approach - far more so than the EU New Republic), a powerful foe rose up on the Rim and is poised to seize power. Revolutionary governments do not last. Why did the US last? Because we cut off the head and left the structure in place. The first revolution in France and Russia didn’t last because it didn’t have anything to fill the power vacuum. So it is very realistic that the Republic created by the allies of our heroes has failed. And note, that they failed to heed Leia who was already leading a resistance to the First Order. Luke had a huge failure that drove him to find the first Jedi temple and to hide there when it didn’t give him any answers. Han lost the Falcon, but ended up with a bigger ship. Virtually all of the failures are no on our old hero’s heads, but on others. The Republic fails because they don’t listen to Leia. Ben falls because he is listening to Snoke, not Luke. Our heroes have not failed so much as been ignored by the next generation. When they should be retiring, they have to go back at it and lead a new fight. But along comes a new set of heroes to pick up the reigns and learn from the great heroes of the past. Classic mythological story telling.

And the story so far has taken place over weeks. The New Republic capitol was destroyed, the First Order is poised to take over, but they have not done so. They have to take over each planet, each system. They have to put a structure in place. Leia’s allies didn’t respond to her call because the are preparing to defend themselves from the First Order. But Luke showed up just when Leia needed him in just the way she needed him - larger than life, legendary, the great Jedi and hero. Luke’s last stand spread like wildfire with even a stable boy (there is nothing ever indicating he is a slave) and his friends on a far off planet hear about what Luke did. Luke again restored hope in a way he never did in the OT. His epic battle with the Emperor and Vader was private. No witnesses. What Luke did in TLJ is epic and witnessed by many on both sides. I wouldn’t be surprised if Leia set the base to film and broadcast it before they exited.

Many comments here have taken the First Order superiority so far to be that they are in charge. There is no evidence of that. Not enough time has passed. The remains of Starkiller Base are not even cool yet. We have not heard of a single system that they have conquered and subjuated. The victory over the Empire has not been lost just yet, only the government that refused to prepare for the fight Leia could see coming. Only the Hosnian system and Takodana have been lost to the First Order, not the entire Galaxy. And after what Luke did and how it spread (the real purpose of that scene at the end), the legacy of the OT is intact. What they fought so hard for has not been lost yet, only endangered. Kylo Ren and General Hux still have to conquer something or all they have done is destroy the capitol.

This whole crapping on the OT nonsense is based on things that just aren’t in TFA and TLJ. Luke had a bad spell, but he came out of it. That is a very mythological thing to do. An old hero now fills the mentor role and is reluctant to get involved again due to some past tragedy. They ST is just following on with the same sources that inspired GL back in 74 to start this journey. And I think he is likely the source for the core story here. I think they threw out his characters and created some new ones that are more in tune with modern audiences like Luke, Han, and Leia were in tune with the 70’s and 80’s. I think that is one mistake of the PT, GL greated heroes that were in tune with some other period besides the 90’s and millennium. To me they feel more like the heroes of 50’s epics like Ben Hur.

So I think everyone who feels that TLJ is crapping on the OT is missing things and assuming things that any diehard Star Wars fan should be picking up on. Do you have to like it? No. But you need to see what the story is, and where it has been, and the origins of all of it before you come down on this movie like this. Sure it didn’t go where you expected. What is wrong with that. Sure it derailed the victory that the OT led to, but pay attention to the story. Not enough time has passed for that victory to be destroyed. They are building it up to create an even stronger victory. Luke may not have had success at rebuilding the Jedi, but he has passed on some important lessons to Rey. He passed on his failure so she can learn from it and the ancient texts of the Jedi. What the OT ended with was, in truth, uncertainty. It ended with the potential and intent to rebuild the Republic. But the government that resulted was weak. After the First Order are defeated, the galaxy will clamor for a strong Republic, like what we hoped they’d get. The ST won’t tear down what the OT left us with, but it has to throw a wrench in the works to shake things up so what we end up with is stronger than before. The ST heroes are there to finish what the OT heroes started.

SilverWook said:

Because either Rey’s parents were on that departing ship or they’re dead and buried on Jakku. It can’t be both.
And Kylo can’t be trusted.

It can be both. The ship we see leaving doesn’t get high enough to be in orbit or leave the planet. It may not even be a spaceship or spaceworthy. They could have gone to another Outpost, crashed, left planet and returned later, of several other scenarios that align what we saw in Rey’s vision with what Kylo said. Also, due to the dark side there is no guarantee that what Kylo said is accurate, though all the other dark side users typically say the truth, but in ways that slant things there way so I wouldn’t count on what he said being false, just misleading.

It’s not like the sabers in the OT were very consistent. Even in color.

A couple of people have mentioned that we see Rey’s parents take off in a ship. True, but we don’t see where that ship went and we don’t know if it is an aircraft or soacecraft and we don’t know where they went. We don’t know if their destination was 5 km away or 5 parsecs. We don’t know if they crashed during departure or if they crashed returning sometime later. Did they abandon her or leave her behind for her safety and then unfortunately die. And if Kylo follows normal dark side misinformation, what he told Rey is mostly true, though likely misleading.

Collipso said:

TV’s Frink said:

Mrebo said:

NeverarGreat said:

Random refrigerator thought, but when did the Resistance come into possession of a bombing fleet? Was it before or after the attack on Starkiller Base, where the entire mission was to hit a large, stationary target with as many bombs as possible? Leia refers to the bombing fleet as if it’s a treasured part of the Resistance, and there are dedicated Resistance crews and everything.

For that matter, when did they get that cruiser and those support ships and their crews? Did they just happen to arrive right after the events of TFA? It’s heavily implied that all of the Resistance attack ships are devoted to the Starkiller assault, and they bemoan that they have no chance without the Republic fleet (which is comprised mostly of capital ships). If they had a massive cruiser the whole time, the Leia would surely have used it to match FO forces at the Takodana battle instead of arriving later in a dinky transport.

I wish I could turn my brain off and enjoy this movie, but it feels like I’m supposed to question these things based on TLJ’s technical plot that draws attention to just this sort of thing.

It’s like the reason people want to know who Snoke is. It’s not because Snoke must be so important in his own right. We want to know how the galaxy-wide celebrations (is that heretical to say here?) at the end of ROTJ gave way to…a new Empire(?) with limitless resources. We assume it’s because of Snoke. And so we want to know how it happened.

Who was the Emperor? How did the Empire get how it was in the OT? The OT didn’t answer these questions and people aren’t complaining about that now.

I don’t think it’s fair to compare those two situations because there were no previously established realities for the situation in the galaxy to challenge. The way it went with TFA is as if TPM was the last Star Wars movie everyone saw and then they make ANH. People would go “wtf? what happened to the republic? to the separatists? what’s this empire?”

We had a established world: the empire has fallen, republic established. TFA tried to push the ANH situation down our throats but the world building wasn’t good enough - they didn’t give us any reasons or didn’t explain what is the first order or what was the republic or how we went from RotJ to the same ANH scenario. That’s what the movie doesn’t explain. It’s not about giving Snoke’s backstory I don’t think (even though that would be interesting once you realise he’s a sith and by the end of RotJ the sith were extinct), but it’s about what happened to the galaxy to get to the point where it was in TFA.

edit: Sorry, this was a really hard post to understand, sorry if it made no sense, it was badly written and not well thought out.

I think, again, that the problem with TLJ lies with TFA. It isn’t as good as some like to think. The crawl is one of the worst offenders. It doesn’t lay out the situation in the galaxy like the others. It just fails and then the movie fails in other ways and ends in a bad spot. I still consider TFA to be the worst of the films to date. It is the only one I have never truly enjoyed.

I just stumbled on an article that explains Luke drawing and igniting his saber with one word - instinct. Obi-wan’s first lesson come back to haunt him. Act on instinct. Well, maybe not always the best advice and it snowballs and actually causes the fall of Ben Solo to Kylo Ren and suddenly Luke is doubting what he was taught. Instinct was his friend in the OT and now it has ruined him. What Obi-wan taught him at the beginning ends of destroying his relationship with his nephew and destroying all his work. A Jedi’s instinct is to destroy evil. Obi-wan and Yoda wanted to see Vader and the Emperor die. They got their wish, but Luke didn’t kill either of them. His instinct was that there was good in Vader and he could be turned. He was right.

Everything about that tale and about the events the lead up to TFA for Luke and Kylo ring true for the Luke I grew up with. This new story really needed the old Luke, but Rey found a broken Luke and it took her leaving to wake him up. And my how he woke up. This parallel’s the OT. Bail Organa decided it was time for the Jedi to return and sent a message to Obi-wan. Obi-wan heeded his call but died before his existance could be revealed. The Rebellion needed a Jedi and only got Luke, who wasn’t a Jedi until ROTJ. Leia called Luke but he tried to refuse, but ended up coming anyway after seeing his error. He died, but he died after a legendary fight that is echoing across the galaxy. The First Order hasn’t solidified its hold over the beheaded Republic and Luke’s actions will make it harder.

I think everyone complaining about Luke between Kylo’s fall and TLJ is missing that the old Luke came back. Even Hamill recognized that RJ went in an unusual but interesting direction and when he saw where it was going he came to think that RJ was the right one to tell this story. I think if everyone really thinks honestly about Luke (whose hero’s journey ended in ROTJ) and digs into the OT and what is contained in the 2/3 of the ST we now have, that you’ll find his actions are consistent throughout and that Luke’s status as Legend in the Star Wars universe remains intact.

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

[yotsuya said:]

Ah, but Luke never says what Kylo would do, only that he was already full of darkness and would do bad things. What he saw he does not elaborate on. For the purposes of what you are saying, we can assume he did not see the galaxy wide distress Kylo would cause.

Luke literally says, I saw the darkness and the suffering it would cause. He saw what Ben would become. He then lit his lightsaber in order to put a stop to it. Considering what he had seen in his youth, it must have been pretty terrible for him to freak out like that. So, yes we can assume he saw the galaxy wide distress Kylo would cause.

Well, Yoda said the future is always in motion so I don’t think we can say with any certainty what Luke saw. His actions in that moment may have changed things and the intervening years would have had many events that may have changed things. His vision may have been worse or not as bad as what we see in the ST. His vision was almost certainly confined to Ben’s future, not the entire Galaxy’s as all the other visions seem to be.

Luke said he saw the suffering Ben would cause. That’s clearly not restricted to Ben. Luke also instinctively drew his lightsaber. Why do you think he did this? To spare Ben personal suffering? Lightsaber therapy? No, to stop the suffering he would CAUSE. The suffering was apparently so great, even compared to Darth Vader, who he refused to kill, he wanted to kill his nephew on the spot.

But no mention of the First Order, one of the cruxes of your argument.

DrDre said:

[yotsuya said:]

Ah, but Luke never says what Kylo would do, only that he was already full of darkness and would do bad things. What he saw he does not elaborate on. For the purposes of what you are saying, we can assume he did not see the galaxy wide distress Kylo would cause.

Luke literally says, I saw the darkness and the suffering it would cause. He saw what Ben would become. He then lit his lightsaber in order to put a stop to it. Considering what he had seen in his youth, it must have been pretty terrible for him to freak out like that. So, yes we can assume he saw the galaxy wide distress Kylo would cause.

Well, Yoda said the future is always in motion so I don’t think we can say with any certainty what Luke saw. His actions in that moment may have changed things and the intervening years would have had many events that may have changed things. His vision may have been worse or not as bad as what we see in the ST. His vision was almost certainly confined to Ben’s future, not the entire Galaxy’s as all the other visions seem to be.

Cobra Kai said:

DominicCobb said:

The ST doesn’t “retcon” the OT or make it wrong or whatever (ruin it, I guess?). The OT is still the OT and will always be the self contained story that it is and nothing that comes after can change that. But you admit Luke ended his hero’s journey there, so what is the ST supposed to do then? Just preserve Luke in a glass case of “perfect mythic hero”?

The ST does exactly what a sequel should do. In many ways this is very similar to the way Empire re-contextualizes the original Star Wars.

If the story must continue with all new characters, then Luke’s character should’ve just followed the natural progression that the OT set up and taken over the archetypal role as the wise mentor. That is exactly what they originally tried to do as Abrams and Michael Arndt have stated. According to Arndt though, they couldn’t figure out how to do this and not have Luke steal the show from the new “hero”:

“It just felt like every time Luke entered the movie, he just took it over. Suddenly you didn’t care about your main character anymore because, ‘Oh fuck, Luke Skywalker’s here. I want to see what he’s going to do’.” – Michael Arndt

I understand what he’s saying, but on a fundamental level I disagree with that. I don’t see any reason why Luke couldn’t have taken a “backseat” to Rey, during the course of the story. After all, they basically did the exact same thing with an equally popular character in Han Solo.

Because the back story is all about Luke’s failure.

DrDre said:

Sorry, but this is just not true. The entire premise of TLJ is, that Luke has seen the suffering Kylo would cause in his vision. He knew exactly what might happen, but ultimately he did nothing to stop it.

Ah, but Luke never says what Kylo would do, only that he was already full of darkness and would do bad things. What he saw he does not elaborate on. For the purposes of what you are saying, we can assume he did not see the galaxy wide distress Kylo would cause.

So, realistic portrayal of toppling a despotic regime, realistic portrayal of a fallen hero, and a realistic portrayal of a character based on actual psychology and the given traits of the character (I checked up on that with some people who know these things), and you have a very realistic setting for the ST to take place in.

Again Star Wars is not realistic. The hero’s journey and myths are not realistic. They are not meant to be.

And yet GL used many things that lends realism to the stories. Not of course the technology or the force, but in the way the people act. He had just come off of American Graffiti and Star Wars has many of the same feelings to it that are grounded in reality. I think that is why even though the story and character archetypes are based on mythology, they feel relatable and grounded. You may have gone to class with Luke, Leia, or Han, had a teacher like Ben or Yoda, or a friend like Lando. While the story is based on mythology, the people come of as real in a fantastic setting.

No, it is not the story you wanted, but it is not flawed in the way you describe it. It is flawed from your view because you see Luke as a legendary hero and that the heroes of the OT should not have failed like they have in the years between the OT and ST.

Luke was a legendary hero, as follows from the hero’s journey. It’s not what I wanted, it is the way it was. That was allways the intent. His story was supposed to end in ROTJ. Of course then Lucas decided to sell his company, and there had to be a ST with the classic characters, and so they had to somehow extend the story. The ST has unrevalled the mythology of the OT in order to do this. Some will like this approach, and others won’t. I will allways prefer the myth, but I like the more realistic approach of the ST enough to want to see, how it plays out.

Luke went on a Hero’s journey, but that does not mean he has to stay a hero. When you think about it, TLJ repeats the offer of a Hero’s journey to Luke, and like the first time, he rejects it (“I can’t come with you to Alederaan. I have to get home.”). And like the first time, he gets a second chance and takes it. But his archetype in this film is not the hero, but the mentor. He rejects the role as mentor initially and then his mentor shows up and makes him see the error of his ways and then he accepts and sacrifices himself for the cause.

Luke is no longer the hero. He was not the hero when he took on students. Luke made a fantastic hero but thinks he failed being a mentor and is unwilling initially to do it again, especially when Rey turns out to be as powerful as Ben Solo was. We still don’t know if he actually changed his mind or decided to play the hero again one last time. Luke showing up as a force ghost in IX would mean he decided to become the mentor.

It all fits with the hero’s journey with our old hero becoming the new mentor. But rather than the type of wise sage we see in Kenobi, we get one beaten down and unwilling to teach and the few lessons he offers are basic and incomplete. So our Hero Luke has become Mentor Luke and in his first try at it he failed and now he fears creating another Kylo Ren more than what Kylo Ren might do. Typical rash Luke saw the darkness of Kylo but probably not all the ramifications of how he would help Snoke and the First Order.

DrDre said:
Luke was the Yin to his father’s Yang. In the OT his character was set up to have most if not all of his father’s flaws, but unlike his father he was to make the right choices. His destiny was to pass on what he had learned, to surpass his elders, to become a legend.

But Luke says it himself in this film. He isn’t a legend. He is a man. And the legend is not who he is. It is not how I ever pictured him. I guess its one reason I never got into the EU.

We skip to ST continuity, where the Alliance’s victory did not lead to a lasting peace. Han and Leia who were destined to be together, got a monster kid, and they separated. It’s not that later generations squandered the OT’s victory, it’s the very heroes of the OT who let it slip through their fingers. The OT fairy tale did not have a fairy tale ending.

Show me a true revolution in our history that ended with the winners establishing a lasting peaceful replacement. ROTJ ended on a high note because all we saw was a victory celebration (Endor in the OOT and Endor, Tatooine, Bespin, Coruscant, and Naboo in the SE-OT). Even in the EU it was not a clean victory. In ROTJ the Empire was decapitated, but by abolishing the senate and leaving the regional governors in charge, Palpatine ensured that even if he was defeated that the Republic could not be easily restored. The ST is taking that to a more realistic conclusion by giving us the First Order, something that rose from the ashes of the Empire. The Thrawn Trilogy gave us something interesting, but this has more realistic feel to it.

The ST represents the reality check of Star Wars. Legends and fairy tales are not real, and TLJ Luke Skywalker is an exponent of that. The OT Luke Skywalker is an icon, someone we aspire to be. TLJ Luke is like discovering the father you allways looked up to, is an alcoholic. He’s more human, and stripped from his iconic status. Sure, he went to AA meetings and finally sobered up, but you never quite look at him in the same way you used to.

Again, the Luke in ROTJ was really not that lofty. He was the same old Luke but had gained confidence. That is why he became a Jedi. He had overcome his failings. But as like you mention alcholism, a person’s failings often lie just under the surface, awaiting a failure to bring them out again. So to me Luke in TLJ and his journey from the fateful fall of his school to now is a very realistic portrayal of someone who had reach such heights and has had such a huge failure.

The OT is a fairy tale, like Santa Clause, and here’s RJ to tell you Santa Clause does not exist. He’s just some guy in a suit. Christmas is never quite the same to you. Sure, your kids look to this new guy (or girl actually) who’s now wearing the suit, and see Santa Clause, but you know it’s a fake beard, because Star Wars is not a fairytale anymore.

As we have watch Luke’s journey over the three films of the OT, we should all be painfully aware that Luke is a man with failings and that for a time he rose above those failings. That doesn’t mean he can’t fall. Such a huge failure as is described is enough to destroy your average person. Someone with Luke’s known failings in the OT, would do just what we are told he did. Your statements prove that you didn’t see the man Luke was and only saw the hero he became. Anakin was a hero and look at what the fear of losing his wife did to him and then how much further her actual loss ruined him. But his son brought him back.

Also, a big part that people are missing in this discussion on Luke is that he cut himself off from the force. He cut himself off from knowing what was going on. He didn’t know that the First Order had grown so strong. He didn’t know that Snoke had grown so powerful. He didn’t know anything. He didn’t know his best friend had died. Leia knew instantly. Luke had to be told. He completely cut himself off from the force and was just a man living on an island. He had no idea that Leia and the Republic needed him. He may not have even know that Kylo Ren had joined Snoke before he vanished to the island. So saying he would never have gone to the island because Luke would never have left the Galaxy in such a predicament fails to take into account that he has no idea. That was not the situation when he went there. That was not the situation when TFA started and he’s been on that island a lot longer than that.

So, realistic portrayal of toppling a despotic regime, realistic portrayal of a fallen hero, and a realistic portrayal of a character based on actual psychology and the given traits of the character (I checked up on that with some people who know these things), and you have a very realistic setting for the ST to take place in. No, it is not the story you wanted, but it is not flawed in the way you describe it. It is flawed from your view because you see Luke as a legendary hero and that the heroes of the OT should not have failed like they have in the years between the OT and ST. But it is damn hard to forge a new government from the ashes of destroyed government. It is not so easy to pick up the pieces as it is too take over from something that is established. The Rebel Alliance achieved their goal of topping the Empire, but the goal of rebuiding the Republic is not so easy and the scenario they are setting up in the ST is just the type of situation that in the real world leads from despot to revolution to despot to republic. That is what happened in France. That is not what happened in the US because the our revolution was not to overthrow the government (the Contiental Congress and State Congreses), but to split from the British government (the King and Parliament). So when the break happened the existing structure remained in place. When the French and the Russians rebelled against their monoarch, the monarchy fell and was replaced by to a despotic republic. In France it only lasted for a few years before Nepolean took over, followed by the Second and first true Republic. So Empire followed by weak Republic, followed by First Order, leading to a New Republic that will be far stronger and lasting is a very realistic story. The PT is politically the story of Hitler’s rise to power in the 30’s so using real world analogs is very in keeping with GL’s vision.

So I have no problem with you not liking the story and for your personal canon to end with ROTJ (mine may yet depending on IX), but I loved this film and find that it fits perfectly with how I see the OT. It lifts TFA for me by carrying on the characters and proving they are good new characters. I hope Abrams doesn’t change the ending and I hope it goes where I think it is going. Regardless of what RJ says, I think Abrams and Kennedy hashed out an overall story arc that they are following and I think it may be the core of GL’s treatment. Knowing that Luke in exile came from GL gives me hope that though he is not telling this story that he gave them an ending that Abrams can execute. Then it might end well and IX could be great.

DominicCobb said:

Collipso said:

I believe the CGI alien that put coins in BB8 is Mark Hamill. I read that somewhere. Is that right?

That’s speculation, which I doubt because it doesn’t say anything.

I’m pretty sure Hamill voices the first alien we see on Canto Bight (the mustache twirling one on the yacht). But I don’t think they’ve revealed anything officially.

No, I read about it around Christmas, right before I saw the movie the second time. You can hear that the alien is voiced by Hamill.

An important question considering what one of the main issues is with the PT. Does anyone think the acting in the ST has been bad?

TV’s Frink said:

Porkins4real said:

yhwx said:

Porkins4real said:

Luke in ROTJ puts down his lightsaber to face the emperor - the darkest man in the universe.

Luke in TLJ takes out his lightsaber and considers murdering his nephew in his sleep because he MAY turn to the dark side.

sounds like the same dude to me.

You’re missing the key context in ROTJ — Luke almost considers killing Vader which would complete his turn to the darkness.

Yes and likewise killing your nephew in his sleep would turn you to the darkside. That is why it makes no sense that he would considering doing it.

It’s the old “is it better to kill one person to save countless lives?” argument…so how would it not make sense for him to even consider it?

His mistake was not in the consideration, but in drawing and igniting his lightsaber. We still don’t know what happened to that one.

From Star Wars to Jedi is available on VHS and Japanese and French LD. I’ve been considering using the sources to rebuild the English version, but parts of it are only on VHS. The others are all disc, either the 2004 dvd or the 2011 BR sets.

TV’s Frink said:

Porkins4real said:

Luke in ROTJ puts down his lightsaber to face the emperor - the darkest man in the universe.

Luke in TLJ takes out his lightsaber and considers murdering his nephew in his sleep because he MAY turn to the dark side.

sounds like the same dude to me.

I love these cherry-picked arguments, where you completely ignore the fact that ROTJ Luke tried to kill the emperor despite knowing he shouldn’t.

And the “MAY turn to the dark side thing” is your misinterpretation, because that’s not what Luke says in the movie to Rey. It’s quite clear the way Luke tells the story that Ben WILL turn to the darkside (if he hadn’t already).

The way I took what Luke said is that Ben Solo was already so full of the dark side that he was basically fallen already. Unfortunately for Luke, his momentary bad judgement seems to have been the final catalyst for the final turn.

Or was it. There have been a few things I have been mulling over in my mind. One of them is the destiny of the force users (I am not using Jedi or Sith because neither of those groups really exist any longer). Enough people had a theory about the Force that I understand GL tried to debunk. That Anakin was the chosen one and to bring balance to the force the Jedi and Sith had to end. The Jedi were wiped out by Palpatine and Vader, and Anakin finished the job by returning to the light and killing Palpatine and Palpatine killed him (or Palpatine had been keeping him alive and with his death Anakin was doomed to die … one theory anyway). Some have also though of the Force in terms of ying/yang with the dark and the light being two sides of a whole that were split artificially leading to a slanted Jedi and the Sith. Well, I recall GL saying absolutely not to something in the above, but you never know with him. He also said he would never do 7, 8, and 9 after the PT and here we are. He did the first treatment of it. I don’t know how much of what we are seeing is his idea for the ST, but we know that Luke in exile is from him.

But the dialog in TLJ and other little hints leads me to believe that the fate of Kylo and Rey are intertwined. Why has Kylo always been so torn. Why can he not shut down the light side and make a complete transition to the dark. Why was Rey not afraid in the cave - something that Luke said was the Dark Side. And then Rose and her sister having ying/yang pendants. I think the error that resulted in the Jedi vs. the Sith set the force out of balance and to fix it, the Jedi and Sith had to go and need to be replaced with a single order that neither fears the light nor the dark. The visions that Rey and Kylo had while connected show conflicting yet complimentary visions of the future. Now those visions may have just been referring to the way TLJ ended with both of them fighting back to back, but it could also refer to something further in the future. And rather than Kylo turning Rey or Rey turning Kylo, if the yin/yang theory holds, they will find a middle ground and both take up the same new path into the future. We lost both Snoke and Luke, the last great force powers of the previous generation and are left with Kylo and Rey, the great force powers of the next generation.

Just a theory, but one that makes sense and leads to a potentially satisfactory ending with a Skywalker on the right side at the end. It would end with a new Jedi order that would be balanced and be able to teach students how to tap, but not fall, into the dark side. Like Luke did in ROTJ. Luke’s grayness in ROTJ is the path I see that this should go and Luke misread the darkness he saw in Ben Solo. But I’ve been wrong before.

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Literally the whole point of Luke showing up and making a scene is inspiring hope across the galaxy.

“The Rebellion is reborn today.”

The Resistance won’t be able to fit on the Falcon for long. This is made pretty clear in the film.

Yeah, but that all depends how the FO will rule the galaxy. It’s not two major organisations backed by various systems like in the OT. In ANH many systems were rebellung against the Empire, because it was oppressing the galaxy. Now it’s hundreds of thousands of troops versus fifty people. If the FO are smart, there won’t be a Resistance ever.

Luke didn’t just inspire little kids with brooms. He inspired everyone who sympathizes with the Resistance’s plight, including, as is implied, their allies in the Outer Rim.

Sympathy that will only last if the FO are an oppressive force. The Resistance have no allies. Their socalled allies in the outer rim didn’t answer.

If the FO set up a benevolent form of government, the Resistance will never rise again, and quickly fade into obscurity. That is as decisive a victory as victories can be. It’s completely up to the FO to drop the ball.

First of all, the FO does not control the galaxy yet. They are in the process of picking up the pieces during the course of TLJ, that is why the quest for Luke is so dire (Rey states this outright in the film). Their ruling style is irrelevant. They are a fascist regime that favors the wealthy and corrupt. The only way the gain power is by leveling whole communities. The goal is to stop them before they can take full control.

And the allies didn’t answer because “the spark has gone out.” Luke reignited the spark. That’s literally the whole point of the climax.

According to the info from the film, the FO will take full control in weeks. That seems a very short time frame for our miniscule group of rebels.

But don’t you understand that it’s not just the “minuscule” group anymore by the end because of Luke?

Rebellions require organisation, a base of operations, personel, extensive training, equipment, and financial resources to support all of the previous. Boys with brooms ain’t gonna cut it. That’s an other thing TLJ threw out of the window, a sense of realism in conflicts, and a sense of scale and time. The FO almost instanteneously wiped out the New Republic at the start of FO, and now the Rebellion has to be rebuild from scratch, much like at the end of ROTS. It took the Alliance two decades to build their organisation between the PT and the OT, but I’m sure by episode IX there will be a full fledged Rebel Alliance ready to resume control of the galaxy, where if the film adhered to previous Star Wars continuity, Rey should be looking for the next new hope.

Even at it’s height, the rebellion was not always in unison. Leia’s group is almost wiped out. The other groups may have just been in fear that they weren’t up to the task. It doesn’t mean they won’t help later.

And your concept of Luke is off. ROTJ starts with him accepting that Vader is his father. The scene was cut, but is shows us where he was at when the movie starts. He isn’t shaken to the core about it. At the end of TESB he is upset that Ben didn’t tell him, not over the revelation. In ROTJ he then goes on to carry out a plan to free Han, rejoin the Alliance, land on Endor, help get the strike force in position until he realizes Vader is there and he is endangering the mission. Even his surrender is done with self assuredness and confidence. The danger to his friends brings out his attacks. But even then, everything he does works. ROTJ is a great success for Luke.

Then he goes to rebuild the Jedi order and things go south. Nothing goes his way. How would the Luke of the OT react? That is where we differ. I feel that the Luke we see in ROTJ is confident and the events TFA and TLJ describe would destroy that confidence and lead to the Luke we see in TLJ. It is the same dejection we see in TESB, but older and grumpier and greatly magnified. I don’t know why you think that side won’t come out again. Human nature says it will. That ultimately is what makes Star Wars compelling - the human side of these archtypes. I am not ignoring ROTJ, but neither am I ignoring the rest of Luke’s journey, which you are by focusing on where he was in ROTJ. I’m not ignoring it as much as saying it didn’t last and he reverted to his older personality traits.

Gaffer Tape said:

You know, when George Lucas used to whip out that tired old “People just want to see Darth Vader killing people with his lightsaber for two hours” excuse when people would rag on Episodes I and II, I always thought it was just a lame deflection of the prequels’ inability to tell an engaging story. But between all the negative comments about Luke in this movie and how many people I heard claim Vader’s 30 seconds on Tantive IV was the absolute best part of Rogue One, I’m beginning to think maybe he was right… 😕

I think you might be right.

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

Collipso said:

Jeebus said:

Collipso said:

Just like VIII would explain Rey’s magical force powers?

All force powers are magical.

I meant how she magically acquired them.

The reason is there if you bother to look and think. Imagining that Luke’s training was typical or normal is the first problem. And then realizing that we’ve never seen anyone else’s training in the films. So Rey is only the second Jedi we have followed through the process. I’m not sure how many times Yoda has to point out the flaws in Luke’s thinking for people to realize that Yoda was desperate or Luke would never have been trained at all.

I just don’t buy your reasoning. Rey copying Kylo doesn’t work for me, because watching someone walking a tightrope, doesn’t mean I can also instantly do it. Like I said learning to access and use the Force was intimately connected to personal growth in both the OT and the PT. That element has now been completely removed. The Force awakens in you, because it somehow needs to be in balance, which would then also mean, since it awoke in Rey to counter Kylo, the Force has somehow also predetermined she’s to be or is a force for good. Though I’m not a big fan of the PT’s Chosen One angle, that at least questioned the whole idea of believing in a prophecy predicting balance, and whether the end justifies the means. Anakin did bring balance to the Force, but at a terrible price. Was Anakin created by the Sith? It was hinted at, and Lucas ultimately decided to leave it as a question mark. So, was he ultimately a force for good, or evil? With Rey it thusfar seems pretty well answered, as in my view she’s never been seriously tempted.

I think you’re making a false comparison. Walking a tightrope is a very specified skill that takes a lot of balance. It’s something very artificial because you don’t find tightropes in nature. However if you compare to other things like painting, drawing, singing, math, pod racing, flying, building things, and a host of other items, there’s a lot more realism in what they’ve done with Rey than you seem to give them credit for. People try something and discover that the course they’ve taken in life has prepared them for it and they’re good at it from the moment they start. I’m not saying that Rey is just picking up these skills on the Fly, I’m saying that her life on Jakku prepared her and that she started out in tune with nature and the force even though she didn’t know how to use it and when she sees kylo use it she can see what he’s doing and is copying him, and if it first she doesn’t get it right she does it again until she does get it right. It’s almost as if she can see what he’s doing on a level that lets her copy it precisely. Sort of like if you’re a computer programmer and you’re watching over someone shoulders as they write code that you’ve never tried to do before and you see exactly what they’re doing and so you go to your computer and you try to do the same thing and it doesn’t work the first time but then you to do it again and get it right. It is an unusual though not unheard of ability and we are seeing it in action with the force. Where Luke’s background on Tatooine did not prepare him. Yoda had to retrain him. He had doubts he had dreams and they all got in the way of him accessing the force. When he needed it and didn’t doubt it it was there. But when he thought the X-Wing was too big he couldn’t lift it. Rey sees how Kylo does things so she knows it can be done, sees how to do it, then does it herself. It is not magic. The force is often equated with magic, but the way Rey is picking up these skills is totally believable.

The old Jedi training (which we have never seen in it’s entirety) begins early in childhood. Even 9 year-old Anakin is too old. It progresses, teaching them how to access the force and what they can do with it in a slow methodical process to avoid the temptation of the dark side and build a sure and confident Jedi. The closest we have gotten to that is in Rebels. Ezra has been picking up things faster and easier than Luke. Rey is basically a force genius. Nothing magical about it at all. Let’s take a real world example. T.E. Lawrence was a cartographer. He became a great leader. What training did he have in being a general? He was just a lieutenant. He certainly had no experience. Yet the failures he encountered were not at the beginning. Then let’s take Einstein an his theory of relativity. He came up with the idea in a bus and turned his daydream into provable mathmatic equations. When they make movies about them do they bother explaining how they learn? Nope. They focus on their personal development. Sometime learning a skilled is the story, sometimes that comes too easy and the interesting story lies in other parts of their life. We spent one movie watching Luke struggle to overcome his doubts. Doing it again would be repetative. We skipped that part of Anakin’s life. With Rey, the interesting part is not her learning the force, but her role in the Skywalker saga as the foil to Kylo and part of the Resistance/Rebellion.

You seem to forget, that even Einstein went to school. Genius doesn’t just magically happen. It’s not like some random bus driver suddenly invents the theory of relativity. Einstein didn’t invent his theory, and then go to a physics professor, and tell him or her, the knowledge just awoke in him, and he was afraid. Genius is an extreme of talent, but it is not boundless, and it doesn’t happen instanteously, as it does with Rey. There’s no level of understanding with Rey, as there is with genius, no learning curve. That’s not how genius works, or the Force.

TLJ is different, not because it tells a very different story set in the same universe. It tells a very similar story set in a different universe. The Star Wars universe and it’s rules were broken to force different outcomes in almost identical situations. TLJ is a mix of TESB and ROTJ set in an alternate universe with similar aesthetics. The most obvious example is the character of Luke , who was deconstructed and then reassembled to fit into this alternate universe, as an alternate nihilist Yoda. You accept the alternate universe, then you accept this Luke Skywalker, but for people like me he’s a different character.

You aren’t even making sense. You are stuck with an impression that many do not agree with. If you watch eps 4, 5, and 8 together, you will see one Luke. One. You have imagined Luke from how he acts in ROTJ. That is the confident, self assured Luke. The Luke we get in TLJ is the same doubting one we get in ANH, and TESB. The same. Why? Because he self assurance was broken by the events that came before TFA. Nothing is broken or rewritten. Rian Johnson is a Star Wars fan and told a story that fits better with the OT than TFA does.

As for genius, Good Will Hunting. There is such a thing as self-taught or experience taught. You do not have to go to school and study in a prescribed manner to be a genius and be able to do what people who have gone to school for a decade to learn to do. Good Will Hunting is fiction, but real people like that exist. Rey is one of those with the force. Her life on Jakku, by a lucky chance, trained her in the way she needed to be able to pick up these skills from Kylo Ren. You, in virtually every post, have described a preconception you came to the movie with that the movie blew apart and you don’t like it. You have yet to prove that it is not logical to the Star Wars universe. Abrams did pass all his ides past Lucas for what is and is not possible with the Force and apparently Lucas approved it. You had the expectation that Rey would have the same difficult journey to becoming a Jedi that Luke had. That is an expectation on your part and in no way means the movie is flawed. The movie went a different direction. Learning the Force is like any other skill. You can learn it in school or learn it in the school of life. Luke had all the wrong lessons the Yoda had to correct (which is there in the TESB dialog) and Rey had all the right lessons. Rey has the patience Luke lacked (demonstrated by waiting for her parents to come back for a decade), she has the disciple Luke lacked (demonstrated by having to work hard to find usable parts just to eat), Rey has the fighting skill (demonstrated by how she defends BB-8). Rey comes to the story already trained in most of the way that Luke lacked. It was not something we are told, but something we are shown. Luke struggled to get to the right place to utilize the force properly, Rey is there already and just needs someone to show her what she can do. Luke needed a patient teacher and Rey needs a powerful example. They are very different characters and their ability to tap the force starts at a very different place. I can find no way to follow your logic except by ignoring what I have seen and heard in TESB and TFA. You seem to be blinded by how Luke appears in ROTJ. That Luke was strong in the force and riding a wave of success and had confidence. He was ready to face Vader and Palpatine. The Luke we get in TFA and TLJ is broken, wounded by betrayal and failure. He is lost. He has closed himself off from the force and is blind to the plight of the galaxy. He is the same Luke from the OT, but broken by what happened. Given his personality in ANH and TESB, this is entirely a logical turn of events. His confidence in ROTJ is shattered and gone and he is back to having doubts. Not in the force, but in his role in the galaxy. He saw no roll so hid away to live out his life in exile. The Luke of TESB would do that. The Luke of ANH most certainly would do that. Failures in life can cause a person to revert to very childish behavior. I’ve seen it in people close to me. They ride high and are one way and life cuts them down and they are someone totally different. That is Luke. He is prone to giving up. That is a given of his personality in the OT. Abrams and RJ tapped into that to send him into exile. Abrams should have had Luke only in the flashback scenes and ended the movie with Rey and Chewie taking off. After seeing TLJ, I have my TFA edit. The scene only needs to play out as RJ had it because that is what rang true to me. The moment I saw it, I saw the Luke of the OT.

You may not agree, but the logic you have posted leaves a lot to be desired. I’ve been watching Star Wars since I was 7. I saw the original 10 times before TESB came out and I bought the video tapes as soon as I had a VCR. I bought the widescreen version as soon as it was available on VHS. I played with the action figures. I read the books, owned the comics. The characters are like old friends. The Luke I saw in TLJ was familiar and like a friend down on his luck. I see a film made by a fan for fans who didn’t want to see a rehash of old material (the single biggest complaint about TFA). I see a filmmaker who didn’t like Abrams mystery boxes any more than I did. I see Abrams as the flawed filmmaker, not RJ. Abrams gave us a lackluster installment and RJ gave us a return to quality story telling. As I said, you may not agree. I just disagree with the logic you present. I can’t follow it because it doesn’t match the Star Wars I grew up with and have spent so much time trying to make presentable so I can share it with my kids. People fail, even icons. All TLJ does is remind us that Luke is human.

I have 6 Kenner MIB and a bunch of Power of the Force and Episode I MIB 3 3/4 actions figures. Anyone interested in more details?

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

Collipso said:

Jeebus said:

Collipso said:

Just like VIII would explain Rey’s magical force powers?

All force powers are magical.

I meant how she magically acquired them.

The reason is there if you bother to look and think. Imagining that Luke’s training was typical or normal is the first problem. And then realizing that we’ve never seen anyone else’s training in the films. So Rey is only the second Jedi we have followed through the process. I’m not sure how many times Yoda has to point out the flaws in Luke’s thinking for people to realize that Yoda was desperate or Luke would never have been trained at all.

I just don’t buy your reasoning. Rey copying Kylo doesn’t work for me, because watching someone walking a tightrope, doesn’t mean I can also instantly do it. Like I said learning to access and use the Force was intimately connected to personal growth in both the OT and the PT. That element has now been completely removed. The Force awakens in you, because it somehow needs to be in balance, which would then also mean, since it awoke in Rey to counter Kylo, the Force has somehow also predetermined she’s to be or is a force for good. Though I’m not a big fan of the PT’s Chosen One angle, that at least questioned the whole idea of believing in a prophecy predicting balance, and whether the end justifies the means. Anakin did bring balance to the Force, but at a terrible price. Was Anakin created by the Sith? It was hinted at, and Lucas ultimately decided to leave it as a question mark. So, was he ultimately a force for good, or evil? With Rey it thusfar seems pretty well answered, as in my view she’s never been seriously tempted.

I think you’re making a false comparison. Walking a tightrope is a very specified skill that takes a lot of balance. It’s something very artificial because you don’t find tightropes in nature. However if you compare to other things like painting, drawing, singing, math, pod racing, flying, building things, and a host of other items, there’s a lot more realism in what they’ve done with Rey than you seem to give them credit for. People try something and discover that the course they’ve taken in life has prepared them for it and they’re good at it from the moment they start. I’m not saying that Rey is just picking up these skills on the Fly, I’m saying that her life on Jakku prepared her and that she started out in tune with nature and the force even though she didn’t know how to use it and when she sees kylo use it she can see what he’s doing and is copying him, and if it first she doesn’t get it right she does it again until she does get it right. It’s almost as if she can see what he’s doing on a level that lets her copy it precisely. Sort of like if you’re a computer programmer and you’re watching over someone shoulders as they write code that you’ve never tried to do before and you see exactly what they’re doing and so you go to your computer and you try to do the same thing and it doesn’t work the first time but then you to do it again and get it right. It is an unusual though not unheard of ability and we are seeing it in action with the force. Where Luke’s background on Tatooine did not prepare him. Yoda had to retrain him. He had doubts he had dreams and they all got in the way of him accessing the force. When he needed it and didn’t doubt it it was there. But when he thought the X-Wing was too big he couldn’t lift it. Rey sees how Kylo does things so she knows it can be done, sees how to do it, then does it herself. It is not magic. The force is often equated with magic, but the way Rey is picking up these skills is totally believable.

The old Jedi training (which we have never seen in it’s entirety) begins early in childhood. Even 9 year-old Anakin is too old. It progresses, teaching them how to access the force and what they can do with it in a slow methodical process to avoid the temptation of the dark side and build a sure and confident Jedi. The closest we have gotten to that is in Rebels. Ezra has been picking up things faster and easier than Luke. Rey is basically a force genius. Nothing magical about it at all. Let’s take a real world example. T.E. Lawrence was a cartographer. He became a great leader. What training did he have in being a general? He was just a lieutenant. He certainly had no experience. Yet the failures he encountered were not at the beginning. Then let’s take Einstein an his theory of relativity. He came up with the idea in a bus and turned his daydream into provable mathmatic equations. When they make movies about them do they bother explaining how they learn? Nope. They focus on their personal development. Sometime learning a skilled is the story, sometimes that comes too easy and the interesting story lies in other parts of their life. We spent one movie watching Luke struggle to overcome his doubts. Doing it again would be repetative. We skipped that part of Anakin’s life. With Rey, the interesting part is not her learning the force, but her role in the Skywalker saga as the foil to Kylo and part of the Resistance/Rebellion.

Collipso said:

Jeebus said:

Collipso said:

Just like VIII would explain Rey’s magical force powers?

All force powers are magical.

I meant how she magically acquired them.

The reason is there if you bother to look and think. Imagining that Luke’s training was typical or normal is the first problem. And then realizing that we’ve never seen anyone else’s training in the films. So Rey is only the second Jedi we have followed through the process. I’m not sure how many times Yoda has to point out the flaws in Luke’s thinking for people to realize that Yoda was desperate or Luke would never have been trained at all.

I think that we will only understand this ST trilogy after IX comes out and we have the complete picture. Until we see the full arc, we won’t know that they are trying to do.