yotsuya

Vladius said:

yotsuya said:

G&G-Fan said:

The only reason people have come to this uncharitable view of the Jedi Order is because George Lucas is not a good writer. Simple as that.

Sorry to cut out most of what you said, but that would be too long.

The Jedi have fallen from their high point and are now struggling and sacrifices have been made. Their teaching relies on avoidance rather than learning how to resist the dark side. Their missions have become more political - controlled by the Senate and Chancellor - than moral (going to help where they are needed). The Clone Wars are the final nail in their coffin because it emphasizes everything they are trapped into doing. And they get destroyed for it.

I don’t think it is the writing, at least not this part. I think this is all pretty clear. If there is nothing wrong with the Jedi, why do they need the Chosen One to come and balance things? We are left to imagine how the Jedi would have been before all this in their glory days. But the PT does not depict their glory days, it pictures them in decline and clinging to traditions and that is included in the films.

Please explain your distinction between avoidance and resistance. That just doesn’t make any sense. If you’re talking about temptation, avoidance is legitimately the best strategy FOR resistance. It’s better to prevent a situation or avoid getting into a situation than to intentionally put yourself near it and grit your teeth and focus really hard on not doing it. But the Jedi absolutely also teach how to do that if you’re in the situation. That’s the point. That’s why they’re always talking about clearing their minds, and meditating.

Sometimes the political missions are the moral missions. If they were sent out to free slaves, that would absolutely be a political mission as well. We don’t really know the details of what their missions look like anyway, or what most Jedi are up to outside of Coruscant. For all we know, they’re serving the people perfectly well.

The Chosen One isn’t to balance the Jedi, it’s to balance the Force, which in some way involves destroying the Sith. The idea is vague and not explained well, but at the very least it doesn’t say anything about getting rid of the Jedi or fixing them.

The PT does depict their glory days. According to Lucas, that was the point of Duel of the Fates being so different from the OT duels. They’re at the height of their abilities, so they’re doing all kinds of flips and whatsits and have faster choreography.

Avoidance vs. Resistance. When you are teaching someone and you don’t want them to do things you teach them to avoid them. You focus on that. But when you want to teach someone how to get along in the real world and you don’t want them to do something, you teach them the dangers in detail. You give them the tools and knowledge to know what the dangers are and how to avoid them by resisting the temptation to do something that might make sense in one situation. In the case of the Jedi, if you don’t want them to give in to fear or anger or hate, you need to teach them what fear, anger, and hate are, and how to avoid fear turning into anger and how to keep anger from turning into hate. We see this in TPM with Obi-wan. Qui-gon dies and Obi-wan acts in anger (he skips fear). For him to avoid going further down that path, he needs the teaching (which is sometimes instinctual and for others it is not). The same thing happens with Luke in ROTJ. Both avoid taking it any further. Both resist the temptation and recenter. Ankin is not able to do this. His anger takes control and the hate sets in. He was not given the tools he needed. Even though they sense several times that he is edging the wrong way. They sense he is in danger and they do nothing to help him. A good teacher (or master) would address the situation with Anakin and make sure he had the teachings he needed.

So basically, teaching avoidance is good for things that you are certain to be able to avoid. If situations can arise where total avoidance is not possible, you need to teach to resist. So for general students, teaching to avoid the dark side might be all you need. Drilling into younglings and Padawans that fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering, and that all leads to the dark side might give them the ability to resist just by virtual of persistent training. Anakin starts late. He hasn’t had as much time. A good teacher would know how to adapt the teaching. Yoda should know how to adapt and be able to advise Obi-wan on what to do. But instead there is a total failure to provide Anakin any additional teaching to keep him from being tempted by the dark side. He has been taught the theory without the tools to resist a real world test.

G&G-Fan said:

The only reason people have come to this uncharitable view of the Jedi Order is because George Lucas is not a good writer. Simple as that.

Sorry to cut out most of what you said, but that would be too long.

But this final statement I have to disagree with. I feel that Lucas created the Republic Jedi Order in a very deliberate fashion. At the core they are still the same Jedi they started out as. They are still good. But they are out of balance with the galaxy. Their ability to access the force is compromised. Perhaps that explains some of the rest of it. But they have become too reliant on their rules. Something has been lost and they know it (the dialog indicates that they know something is wrong and things are out of balance). That is why Qui-gon sees Anakin as the Chosen One - a being to bring balance to the force. So we have established that there are things wrong from the outset. Qui-gon is at odd with the Jedi Council and the story makes it clear he has no intention of changing his ways. Lucas’s comments about him indicate that he is on the right path and the Jedi Council is not.

So built into the story are a number of things that show that the Jedi are not at their best in the PT.

How they handle slavery is also addressed. Qui-gon says they are not there to free slaves. Okay. If it was a timing issue, why didn’t they go back and free some of the slaves. At least Shmi. That would have been one way to help Anakin get on the right path. Qui-gon might have had he lived. The other Jedi did nothing. So it was not a timing issue. It was a policy issue. The Jedi were being politically correct for their role in the Republic.

The scene was cut, but this came up in TLJ. Rey’s third lesson was a test. Rey helped the nuns against a perceived enemy and Luke asked her what happens next time when she isn’t there. The Jedi can’t save every situation all the time. They are guardians of peace and justice. They have a political role in the Republic. This goes beyond their connect with the force. It feels like because they have a role in the Republic that they are prevented from acting in the true best interests of the galaxy. Having the added information that their numbers have fallen provides and explanation. Where once they could go out and conduct missions to help the people of the galaxy, their lower numbers have forced them into a political role where they my choose what missions will help the most people and do the most good. Slave on the rim becomes something of a non-issue because it does not fit their political role even though it fits their moral role.

The Jedi have fallen from their high point and are now struggling and sacrifices have been made. Their teaching relies on avoidance rather than learning how to resist the dark side. Their missions have become more political - controlled by the Senate and Chancellor - than moral (going to help where they are needed). The Clone Wars are the final nail in their coffin because it emphasizes everything they are trapped into doing. And they get destroyed for it.

I don’t think it is the writing, at least not this part. I think this is all pretty clear. If there is nothing wrong with the Jedi, why do they need the Chosen One to come and balance things? We are left to imagine how the Jedi would have been before all this in their glory days. But the PT does not depict their glory days, it pictures them in decline and clinging to traditions and that is included in the films.

Darth Malgus said:
In conclusion.
Although the idea of learning to let go is basically right, I think the Jedi have implemented it too radically. Instead of forbidding attachment (as intended by Lucas),I think they should have taught how to control it, allowing people to express the fear of loss in a balanced way. Their wrong teachings played a very important role in Anakin’s fall, because they didn’t allow him to handle his emotions in a healthy and human way (because I repeat, suppressing the fear of loss is neither healthy nor human). Then, if we also add Anakin’s manipulation by Palpatine, who taught Anakin to handle his negative feelings in the wrong way, then we have Darth Vader as a result. Darth Vader is simply what you obtain when you mix up a person with already existing emotional problems, the wrong teachings of the Jedi that doesn’t allow this emotional problems to be solved correctly, and finally Palpatine’s willingness to take advantage of all the above to carry out his own agenda.

I 100% agree!

Vladius said:

I watched the originals on VHS constantly and I’ve always been into the books, video games, and other stuff. I went to The Phantom Menace in theaters for my birthday (6 or 7 I think.) I loved it, loved all the merchandise and stuff. I fondly remember having some Darth Maul slapbands. When episode 2 came out I was hyped and I liked seeing it but something did feel kind of off, I didn’t like Anakin’s character and I didn’t care about any scenes with him and Padme, or C3PO and R2D2 (still feel exactly the same way.) I really liked the Tartakovsky Clone Wars. When episode 3 came out I was extremely hyped and I loved it, watched it as many times as I could.

As I got older I started to see why people didn’t like the prequels and I started developing my own opinions about them. I still like The Phantom Menace and Revenge of the Sith a lot more than Attack of the Clones. I think if the middle movie was altered significantly (particularly in regard to Anakin and the Jedi) it could have been a really nice complete whole.

I am much older than you (I was 7 when I saw ANH), and I felt the same way about the PT Films. I really enjoyed TPM (yes, even Jar Jar) and to this day think it was a great start to the new trilogy. Being a Star Trek fan as well, I was used to inconsistent movie installment and TPM felt like a great but not best installment. When AOTC came along, I felt something was off. A few places in the first viewing and then others as I have watched it over again. ROTS felt closer to TPM, but didn’t quite make it.

The part of AOTC I like is the romance. Some don’t, but to me it feels very much like a classic movie. And the ages remind me of my grandparents and how my grandmother told of their romance. My grandfather was 5 years younger and used to be friends with her brothers, then moved away. When he came back at 19 or 20, he romanced her and they got married in November 1929. Between that and my love of classic movie story telling (Check out Robert Donat’s Goodbye Mr. Chips and that romance) and the close parallel to a story in my family, there is just nothing about it I would change (even the “I hate sand” exchange).

What fails for me in AOTC is that it should be a buddy movie. Anakin is about ready to be tested and become a Jedi Knight. That should have been part of the story. Instead Obi-wan is the bossy teacher and Anakin is the petulant student. I think this totally ruins the movie. The issue with the droids I was able to fix in an edit, but the lack of buddy chemistry is just an absence from the film or from anything shot for the film. Just where they are at in their journey is wrong. He picked the wrong point. He should have taken his Jedi trials during the film (a training sequence similar to Luke on Dagobah) and become a Jedi knight before the Clone War started. He could have an incident during his trials that show how close he is to the edge. As I write this, I can see where it should fit. Just after Padme’s ship explodes and we see she is allright, it cuts to Anakin in his Jedi trials. Instead of arguing with Obi-wan in front of Padme, he almost slips and almost fails his trials, but he succeeds and they take the assignment to protect Padme before they have a chance to formalize Anakin’s elevation to knighthood (another opportunity for some conflict, similar to the master bit in ROTS) and then the rest could procced much the same. Just shorten that damned droid factory scene… or eliminate it. So many better ways to spend time story telling in a Star Wars film. And it would enhance ROTS as well and maybe make that a better film.

Also, Lucas was too subtle in his PT story telling. He needed to be more in your face with some things. With Palpatine subtle was good, with Anakin’s fall it wasn’t.

Servii said:

I still don’t really buy the idea that Qui-Gon would have saved Anakin. I know that was Lucas’ intent, but I don’t buy into it.

There are two reasons why you can see that this would have been the case. First, he is not quite in step with the rest of the order. Anakin needs something extra and this being out of step would have given Qui-gon a different perspective. We see this and Obi-wan even states that if Qui-gon would just conform he’d be on the Jedi Council. But Qui-gon is his own person. The other is that Qui-gon likely would have been more absent from Coruscant and separated Anakin from the influence of Palpatine. I think that when you put those two together that Anakin would have never turned to the dark side. Of course, given that we are talking about a prequel, that wasn’t going to happen. Qui-gon died in TPM for the same reason that Obi-wan did in ANH - drama and story. Adding in that having Qui-gon as master would have changed the outcome makes that story all that deeper. He made Qui-gon the master Anakin needed. And it sheds light on the flaws of the Jedi.

G&G-Fan said:

Darth Malgus said:

On the contrary, “Protect the ones you love, do everything you can to make them feel good, but if in the end you don’t succeed, then, only then, you have to learn to let go”, this is a deep, human and healthy teaching.

It’s funny because this is literally what Lucas thinks:

“They can still love people. But they can’t possess them. They can’t own them. They can’t demand that they do things. They have to be able to accept the fact, one, their mortality, that they are going to die. And not worry about it. That the loved ones they have, everything they love is going to die and they can’t do anything about it. I mean they can protect them as you would ordinary protect, you know, ‘Get out of the way of that car.’ Somebody charges you with a gun, you knock the gun out, but there is an inevitability to life which is death and you have to accept that.”

“[Jedi Knights] do not grow attachments, because attachment is a path to the dark side. You can love people, but you can’t want to possess them. They’re not yours. Accept that they have a fate. Even those you love most are going to die. You can’t do anything about that. Protect them with your lightsaber, but if they die they were going to die. there’s nothing you can do. All you can do is accept that fact.
In mythology, if you go to Hades to get them back you’re not doing it for them, you’re doing it for yourself. You’re doing it because you don’t want to give them up. You’re afraid to be without them. The key to the dark side is fear. You must be clean of fear, and fear of loss is the greatest fear. If you’re set up for fear of loss, you will do anything to keep that loss from happening, and you’re going to end up in the dark side. That’s the basic premise of Star Wars and the Jedi, and how it works.
That’s why they’re taken at a young age to be trained. They cannot get themselves killed trying to save their best buddy when it’s a hopeless exercise.”

That is how it is supposed to work. When you are trained up from your earliest memories that that is the way, it is easy to live that life. Anakin came to the order late and did not have that base and the Jedi failed him in his training (let’s be quite clear, it is obvious that while Obi-wan was his primary teacher, all the Jedi were involved). What Lucas told Dave Filoni about the duel in TPM being truly a duel for the fate of Anakin, makes it clear that this was Lucas’s intent. The rest of the comments are about Jedi in general. But you have to look at the fallen Jedi as well as those who remained in the order to see what Lucas did. The Jedi training did not work for everyone and it periodically failed. It definitely failed Anakin, but also Dooku. Qui-gon was not aligned with the rest of the Jedi in some of these things. And his difference of opinion is what Anakin needed and didn’t get from Obi-wan or the Jedi order. So the Jedi are flawed, but their flaws are do not make them evil, just out of balance. Hidebound is the word that seems to describe them best. It means they are too wrapped up in the rules and history and are no longer able to adapt when odd things crop up, such as Dooku or Anakin.

I don’t usually read the novels or comics, so all I have to to go on in what is in the movies and tv series. Dooku’s fall isn’t covered in a significant way. Anakin’s is the one we can see and it is a series of errors. First the error to detect Sidious. He is right there and influencing Anakin the entire time. He spent 13 years laying the groundwork for Anakin’s fall. At the same time, the Jedi weren’t able to deal with Anakin’s fears and teach him how to let go. Now, some people just can’t learn something new like that so we could also blame Anakin for coming into the order with fear and Obi-wan for going ahead and training him (and we hear him blame himself in the OT), but Lucas’s comment about Anakin and Qui-gon make it clear that there was a way Anakin could have been trained and become a stellar Jedi and Qui-gon’s death took away that chance. That means that Anakin was not intended to have these issues, but that the Jedi and their ways (which Qui-gon differed with) are to blame for Anakin’s failure to be taught.

Rian Johnson tied into this in TLJ with what Luke was saying about the Jedi. And in that movie we see what the Jedi should have done - change. Learning from past mistakes is what makes a great teacher. If you haven’t made the mistakes, you can’t teach your students how to avoid them. The Jedi were all about avoidance without having the tools that all their order need to be able to avoid failure. Luke is once again schooled by Yoda that he needs to learn, not only from his own mistakes, but the mistakes the Jedi made, and be there for Rey. That is one reason I love that film. I feel it completes the Jedi tale. And then Rey runs off with the Jedi texts.

And going along with that, I’ve noticed an interesting pattern. In TROS we see Rey and Kylo Ren/Ben Solo openly use a force healing power. As I watch the previous episodes we can see it in ANH and ROTS as well. Ben revives Luke in the Tatooine canyon and Palpatine stabilizes Vader on Mustafar. In this ability you see the ultimate application of attachment and how it should work for a Jedi. Had Anakin known this, he could have saved Padme, though at the cost of his own life. A Jedi can use their power to heal, but at personal cost. Rey heals Kylo Ren (he was not dead yet, the wound was freash). Then Kylo Ren (learning the power the same way Rey learned from him) saves Rey, but she is drained so saving her costs him his own life. A Jedi with attachment risks themselves. They must be free from emotional entanglements. They can be in love, but they have to know how to let go. But in the Prequels, the way the Jedi teach this is to avoid love as it leads to attachment. Anakin was right, they are too love (compasion), they just have to be able to let go when it is time and that could be any moment. Qui-gon could have taught him that lesson, none of the other Jedi could.

That would have been so cool. Not sure if you can find a way to put that in an Ep III edit, but it would enrich the story.

I think perhaps the one thing I was most happy with in the PT was Owen and Luke being step brothers. The story leading up to it I’m not too happy with. It doesn’t feel like the backstory we see in ANH.

I’d want something very different if I could get a do over of the PT. The Clone Wars would be a series of wars that destabilized the Republic and left it vulnerable to Palpatine (I do like that he is behind it). But We need to see better Jedi. We didn’t need a chosen one. I like that Palpatine had his eye on Anakin from the beginning. so I’d take a few things from what we got and incorporate them into the new story. Sort of like how they have done with some legends material.

Anchorhead said:

All,

Let me clear up something before we waste any more time on this tangent. I’m not knocking Han in-universe or as written. It’s very likely that Han was my hero before most of you were born. I don’t need him explained to me. My point, and I stand by it, is that he’s nowhere near as dangerous a person as Cassian, nor is he ever in as much danger. When we meet him, he’s in trouble with one gangster because a single deal went sideways. If he were in any real trouble, he wouldn’t be hanging out in a bar down the road from the guy to whom he owes money.

As someone said earlier, he’s more of a happy-go-lucky type of guy. He’s selfish (as Leia points out), and has no apparent passion or higher cause. As presented, he comes across as a legitimate charter who sometimes takes side gigs smuggling. He’s shown to be that in EU novels also. Everyone we see him kill is in self defense. Cassian practically lives a witness protection lifestyle no matter which planet he’s on. We see him kill people in cold blood, not necessarily in self defense because he never waits that long.

They both make money illegally, they’re both interesting to watch, and both are sort of anti-heroes, but they are not the same types of people.

That makes it quite clear and I quite agree.

Anchorhead said:

Vladius said:

I think what you’re getting at is that Han’s story is more of a classic romantic adventure, whereas Cassian’s story is deliberately less glamorous. Though when he becomes a spy and goes on spy adventures that will change.

It is more classic romanticism. As to all the things you pointed out about Han, none of that happened until Ben and Luke came into the picture. Prior to that, I don’t see anything in 1977 that suggests he lives anywhere near as dangerously as Cassian or with anywhere near the constant fear and desperation.

Having Greedo come into the Cantina to try and shoot him doesn’t count?

Han definitely doesn’t have the personality to live in fear. Happy-go-lucky is more his style, but in a life full of gangsters, the Empire, and constant danger of things going south, he lives on the edge, but never in fear. He always has hope that the next job will turn things around. And he has enough luck that that hope is not completely misplaced, though he never manages to get that awesome payoff. He starts off with a hard edge and Luke seems to soften him a bit. We see that change in ANH and it is much softer in TESB and ROTJ. In Brian Daley’s books he has more that hard edge, though not as hard as what we see on Tatooine.

I like how some are implying that the original movie was more adult. It wasn’t. Lucas’s target audience was always about 11 for the movies. I feel the target audience for this one is more like 20. I grew up in the 70’s and many of the things in Star Wars are reflected in the movies and TV shows of that time. Evening TV had to be family rated, even the adult shows. That is the feeling of Star Wars. It is something that Lucas and Disney have always aligned on. Firmly Friendly entertainment that has something for the younger viewers and layers that only adults will get.

Today is a much different world and Andor is probably the first Star Wars series intended for an older audience. I’d say that The Mandalorian was a little more adult, but mostly Star Wars had just had hints of this world, even while dealing with a rebellion. I mean, how many millions died on the two Death Stars? Was that ever mentioned. No. Only that Darth Vader and the Emperor were ruthless in their control and rule of the galaxy. Vader was the face of evil, but on the grand scale of things, Darth Vader wasn’t seen to do much that was evil. His stormtroopers frying Owen and Beru is probably the worst thing in the original trilogy, but he didn’t do that himself.

Darth Malgus said:

What would I have done if I had bought Star Wars in 2012? Well, to understand it, you first need to understand how the Canon of the time was structured. Before the decanonization of the EU there was a very precise Canon hierarchical system in place, which included five levels:

• G Canon: The Prequel Trilogy and the Original Trilogy
• T Canon: The Clone Wars (2008)
• C Canon: The majority of the EU
• S Canon: The stories written in the 70s and 80s, before the Thrawn Trilogy
• N Canon: The non-Canon stories, such as the Infinities comics, the satirical stuff, etc.

Anyone can see that this hierarchical system is very complicated, and that many people can get confused. So, if I had bought Star Wars in 2012 I would have kept the EU as Canon, but at the same time simplifying the hierarchical system by eliminating the S Canon and the T Canon tiers.

The stories that were part of the S Canon tier contradict the post-Thrawn Trilogy EU, so they were not considered entirely Canon, but only partially Canon. That is, the parts of those stories that didnt contradict the post-Thrawn Trilogy EU were considered Canon, while the parts that did contradict it weren’t taken into account. Now, since the S Canon stories were never considered entirely Canon to begin with, then keeping the S Canon tier is completely useless. So, if I had bought Star Wars in 2012 I would have simplifyed the Canon hierarchy by completely erasing the S Canon tier, and moving all the stories that were part of that tier into the N Canon (non-Canon) tier.

I’d have an issue with this. The Brian Daley Han Solo trilogy was effectively moved to the C tier by A.C. Crispin when she included them in her new Han Solo trilogy (there is a note in the text of the last book that says those three stories happen effectively making it a Han Solo 6 part series).

In 2012 I would have done much the same. I would have picked different people. The issues I have related to JJ Abrams and the silly pair they hired for Solo. I would have put the Kenobi movie higher and it would have been set solely on Tatooine. No Vader. I would not have demanded that they pull Clone Wars form Cartoon Network. I do like that they relegated all the EU to Legends. I would have done much the same, but I would have kept some of it. I would have hinted that some of it still happens. I would have kept Mara Jade and the 3 Skywalker kids. The one thing I don’t like about the films is that there is only one Skywalker grandchild and he dies. I would have found a way to bring Palpatine back for the epic climax, but it needed some foreshadowing.

If I were to take it over now… the mistakes have been made and I wouldn’t change much. Solo 2 would be immediately greenlit. Smaller budget. I’d film it more like the OT. A few Exotic locations and fewer digital backgrounds. More practical FX. I’d want to concentrate on story and characters. Less is more in many ways. I would be planning more movies, but I’d space them out. Back to every 2 to 3 years. I do like the short series format. Given where tech is taking us, I’d consider maybe brining some of the favorite EU stories over in that format. Like the Thrawn trilogy. It wouldn’t be quite the same because it would need to fit. It would be like Strange New Worlds - follow the original story but with noticeable changes.

Fan_edit_fan said:

Peter Pan said:

An interesting read on the trilogy, maybe Palpatine could have picked up on his involvement with everything that has transpired in his conversation with Grievous.

Other than that I feel like the Jedi are too gullible throughout the movies to pose a threat to Palatines plans. In TPM Qui-Gon senses that there is more behind the Federation invasion but he doesn’t investigate and in AOTC does nobody investigate the mystery behind the creation of the clones. Only in ROTS do the Jedi start to suspect Palpatine after he placed Anakin on the council and thereby openly challenged the Jedi.
This makes the plot feel less like a tense game of chess and more like a GM taking on an amateur.

Yeah the Jedi just adopting the Clone Army without any questions is maybe the silliest character decision from the prequels. Even Master Yoda just takes them and jumps into combat with them within hours of finding out about their existence…very off beat for his type of character.

They were ordered by a Jedi Master. In Clone Wars we learn that he was rather paranoid and the while we viewers grow to suspect that Count Dooku might have killed Syfo Dias and played him, it is also possible that he was paranoid and and a premonition and that Dooku and Palpatine took it over and twisted it to suite their plan. Dooku is the one who recruited Jango Fett, so if Syfo Dias did order the clones, he died shortly after. The Jedi never suspected that Palpatine planted order 66. So from their point of view there really wasn’t much to investigate. A nutty one of their own placed the order about the time he died so he couldn’t have told them what he did. How the clones were paid for was never explained.

I’ve always felt like TMP is the last good movie Lucas did. I don’t think it is quite up to the OT, but I think it is a good view into the world of these characters as they start their journey. Then it fumbles in AOTC and struggles to come back from that in ROTS. I think Lucas’s story of the rise of Palpatine is too subtle. He is behind the Trade Federation blockade and invasion of Naboo, but the connection is hidden. He is behind ordering the clones, but that is hidden. He has been influencing Anakin the entire time and has been planting the seeds for his fall since TMP, but that is hidden. He used the force to bend a vulnerable Anakin to the dark side after Anakin saves him from Mace, but it is not obvious. He uses the force to keep Anakin alive, but again it is not obvious. He is the likely source for Anakin’s nightmares. He may have arranged for Shmi’s kidnappng and may have used to force to kill Padme (my theories). But Lucas chose to make it a mystery and leave so much unrevealed.

In ROTS Palpatine reveals a lot, but not everything. What we see in ROTJ is better revealed. That should have been what we see in ROTS. His plans should have been revealed, but I think Lucas was more focused on showing the story of Anakin, but the story of Palpatne was crucial to that. I do think as a film, ROTS is the best of the three in many ways. But in others is fails. Though not as badly as AOTC.

Anchorhead said:

Fan_edit_fan said:

Anchorhead said:

I’ve seen the 1979 original - several times in 79 in the theater and countless times in the decades since. I ubernerded it that year. Books, articles, etc. I still vividly remember my VHS of it just a few years later. I’ve listened to the soundtrack regularly since 79. Honestly, almost weekly, even now.
Because the original is a permanent Top Ten for me, there was never any chance I’d bother with a sequel. It’s a complete and finished story (for me).

You…seriously… have never watched The Empire Strikes Back this entire last 40 years???

No. I last watched it in the late 90s. Let me be a bit more clear on Empire. I don’t dislike it, I just don’t care about the story enough to watch it with any regularity. It’s fine as a film and as a sequel. It just doesn’t interest me because I didn’t care what happened after 1977. It answered questions I wasn’t asking.

Some standout moments to me; Any scene with Lando, the asteroid field, and Luke hanging under Cloud City. Those were all moments that I thought were very well done. Again, not enough to watch it, but if the OT is ever released in it’s theatrical version(s), I’ll buy and watch Star Wars for sure and maybe even The Empire Strikes Back.

I don’t know how to explain it any more clearly. Two things figure into it. 1. It’s been 40+ years since this was topical for me. Life is SO much more than a film.
2. Lucas contaminated things so badly that I’ve lost interest. I’m on this board fighting the good fight for nearly 20 years. Lucas won. He has successfully denied me - one of the teenagers who made him wealthy in the 70s - the ability to watch and escape in that very 1977 film.

I’m typically fairly neutral or nice(ish) about his mental illness, but at the same time my thoughts are about what a piece of shit he really is. Who the fuck goes to battle against the very people who gave them fame, fortune, and power?

I don’t agree, but I truly do appreciate that you have this opinion. And I know you are not the only one around here who feels that way. Others love the original and TESB but not ROTJ. I have yet to come to this point with Star Wars, but I came to that point with Star Trek. I was watching B5, DS9 and Voyager concurrently and when the best the DS9 and Voyager had to offer were flashback episodes in 1996, I just couldn’t watch them any longer. I really have no interest. I’ve taken the time to watch the finales and an episode here and there, but both series are failures as far as I’m concerned. Other fans rave about them, but I just am not interested. I found Babylon 5 to have a superior story, even if the CG-ness of some of the FX was too obvious. I have all of TOS and TNG (including movies) on disc, but I have no intention of ever having DS9, Voyager, or Discovery. I do appreciate Picard and Strange New Worlds so those may join my collection.

But I truly think for both Star Wars and Alien, you are missing the best of the series in the sequel to the original. It was a good time for sequels.

BedeHistory731 said:

Even if yotsuya is being 100% legit, I love that they’re riling up the people here so much. Sometimes the best trolls are the ones who are entirely honest.

At least yotsuya is less predictable than Stardust1138 and doesn’t spam a crap ton of YouTube links. Stardust was under the faulty impression that watching YouTube video essays makes you extra-intelligent. Trolls shouldn’t make you do homework.

I try not to be too predictable. I think my general outlook on things comes from extensive reading of a variety of SF series. Authors who write a series over 30 or more years often end up with some oddities. So it is likely I’m not seeing or caring about things that are driving other people nuts because I learned a long time ago to just roll with some of it.

Part of it lies with the OT itself and how many errors it has. Adywan’s version have corrected quite a number that most of the rest of us don’t even see. I have no interest in that level of exactness and such minor issues don’t spoil my enjoyment of things. I set the bar with A New Hope. In 1977 the premier had a couple of FX shots that were messed up and replaced. Still in there are the many glitches with R2. His misplaced restraining bolt, his coming and going dents, R5-D4 appearing behind him when he is supposed to be 20 feet away, the shots with the wrong background, reordered shots that lead to C-3PO moving when he should be shut down. Then there are the bad FX shots. The smear when the landspeeder drives behind the R2 unit outside the Cantina. This movie won an oscar for its ground breaking FX and some of them from the original version don’t pass muster today. And you would think Lucas would improve things with his tinkering, but he created as many issues as he solved. The rock in front of R2 in the canyon vanishes when R2 moves forward and it doesn’t fit the view R2 has of the Sand People. The windows added to cloud city are inconsistent. The backdrop behind the Millennium Falcon on the Cloud City landing pad are inconsistent. The OT is full of these little issues. It uses old school static matte plates to expand sets and sometimes you can tell. So there is a lot to forgive in the OT. The PT has some bad CG FX. And that is just Star Wars. I’m a fan of Star Trek, Babylon 5, and Doctor Who (classic and new). Star Trek has some whoppers. So anything that might be amiss in the Kenobi series has to be more significant than these to catch my attention.

And as for story, one of my favorite types of stories is the life story. Very few movies handle this, but it isn’t uncommon in books. James Michener’s Centennial covers 200 years with characters dying and new ones coming in. How the West Was Won with Carrie Fisher’s mother, Debbie Reynolds, in the only role that carries through from beginning to end. And so many writers I like who have created series in non-chronological order (either whole books or books and short stories). Xanth in particular carried through over many generations. I think this has prepared me for how older heroes get treated when they get older. And also for how authors tend to shoehorn prequels and inserts into their series. So nothing the Kenobi series did surprises me or feels like it derails the story. There are things I would have done differently. I think Kenobi pulling himself out of his post Order 66 funk could have been done without Inquisitors or Vader. But that isn’t as epic. I think the way fans have reacted to Vader in Rebels and Rogue One meant this was the way it needed to be. And after the fast paced flashy duel in ROTS, there needs to be a reason that Vader is cautious in ANH. So I think much of this series was necessary to fill in a hole.

And if you think I always blindly accept additions, I do not. Star Trek has much that I cannot stand due to quality issues. Star Trek has a formula and when they stray from it it isn’t as good. When they toss it out the window, it is really bad. Two of the recent movies and the first two seasons of Discovery are deplorable for how bad they do Star Trek. Star Wars has a simpler formula. Myths, legends, epic stories, Flash Gordon. I find most of the new entries to be in keeping with that. TLJ and TROS especially. I think BOBF missed the mark, but it wasn’t bad. Just not what it could have been. The Din Djarin episode should have been broken up and shortened. And the totally omitted anything with Boba between ROTS and ANH or anything he did in the OT from his point of view. I don’t think the story they told was bad, just jumbled and missing a bit. So there is a level where I do start to object to things.

fmalover said:

In fact EU material written prior to the prequels frequently had Jedi falling in love, getting married and starting families, in addition to there being no age restriction to joining the Jedi order and we even had some Jedi taking more than one apprentice at a time.

I think that is the version of the Jedi from older times. I think Lucas was deliberately layering in some things he might have observed from the older stodgy religions to make the PT Jedi a bit off. At their core they are still the same, but they are operating under stricter rules and some Jedi chafe at those rules, like Qui-gon Jinn. I think that the minor schism between Qui-gon and the council is Lucas showing us that the current Jedi order has imposed additional limits on itself. I think this is further illustrated in Anakin’s fall. I think this is shown in the films and I think it is reinforced by what Dave Filoni said that Lucas told him about the significance of Qui-gon’s death. Qui-gon is the master Anakin needed. He would have been the chosen one and would have brought balance to the force without the destruction that resulted. But he got Obi-wan. A perfectly capable master for any regular student, but not the master that Anakin needed because Obi-wan followed the council (and was on the council). Lucas was playing the story overly subtle in the PT and there is a lot that you can dig out that isn’t immediately obvious but is there in multiple places. I think the add campaign for AOTC partly shows this with the rules for being a Jedi that they used that Anakin obviously had problems following. Those rules, as they were in the add campaign (print and trailers) weren’t in the film, but are clearly part of the story. In the film we just see Anakin chafing at several rules and reference to attachments vs. love.

adywan said:

jedi_bendu said:

I think the only shot I found dodgy was that one of the Star Destroyer at the start. Considering how many noticeably bad special effects there were in Kenobi, that’s not bad going.

Yeh, that one wasn’t as good. Did you notice they cut the top of the tree off when compositing, then it suddenly appears when the stardestroyer has passed?

If you watch it on a better source, you can clearly see the top of the tree over the Star Destroyer. I’m not sure why the YouTube verson of this is so crappy, but the tree disappearing is an artifact of the poor quality of the video, not compositing.

I was listening to the Original 1977 soundtrack yesterday and the track “Ben’s Death and Tie Fighter Attack” came on and I was picturing the scenes and thinking about that duel and something occurred to me about the Kenobi finale duel. Using the force can be exhausting. What we see both those men do in that duel would require great effort. A casual viewer might assume that Kenobi is still in a position to fight, but consider this, his withdrawl after leaving Vader injured and kneeling is because it has been fought to a draw. Neither has energy to continue the fight. Obi-wan is not positive he could take Vader at that moment because he is drained and trying not to show it. He leaves in victory, but only because he momentarily bested Vader and give a chance to recover there is a real chance Vader would win if the duel continued. And it is not the Jedi way to strike down an opponent when they have been bested. Dealing a death blow in combat is different, but cutting your opponent down when they are kneeling and reeling from your attack is not the way things are done. Civilized and honorable are the hallmarks of a Jedi. They fight by a code that has rules and it is uncivilized to break those rules. So Kenobi walks away from the duel in the Kenobi finale because he is at the end of his energy and needs to rest and he has fought Vader to a draw and left him reeling from that final attack and unable to, at that moment, continue. So rather than debating why Kenobi let Vader live, I think that it was both Kenobi following the Jedi code of combat in a duel and that he used so much power in that attack that he knows he cannot keep going. And while Vader still possesses his lightsaber, this is at the same point where Luke turns from facing Vader and confronts the Emperor.

The other thing is that I love Alec’s portray in ANH. There are so many subtleties that play into the saga as it expanded. He expression when he tells Luke about his father and his expression when he looks over at the three younger people as they are ready to board the falcon. None of it was known at the time, but now that the saga is complete (following Ep III) it looks like he is uncomfortable with the tale he is about to tell Luke and then pleased that the twins are back together. And Vader didn’t believer him when he boasted of becoming powerful. That look of peace on his face as he raises his saber to leave himself vulnerable to Vader’s blade. Alec was a master and gave a future proof performance. Too bad he didn’t win the Oscar he was nominated for.

of_Kaiburr_and_Whills said:

The problem with that is what Lucas told Filoni. It wasn’t just Anakin’s need for power, it is how he was taught that led to that. The duel between Qui-gon and Darth Maul was the duel for Anakin’s fate. Had Qui-gon won, Anakin would have turned out different. Qui-gon is portrayed as a rebel against the Jedi council. Anakin needed an unorthodox teacher teacher like that. Instead he got the by the book teacher in Obi-wan (his comments to Qui-gon both point out how out of step with the council Qui-gon was and how in step he himself was). That plus Palpatine whispering in his ear for thirteen years.

Also, the feeling I get from the PT is that the Jedi are flawed. I stopped reading the EU materials long before the PT came out so I have no clue if they support or contradict the impression I get from the PT itself. The flaw in the Jedi teaching does not lie in their dogma. It lies in the tools they teach their younglings and padawans to resist the temptation of the dark side. What we get is that they don’t teach them anything. They teach dark side abstinence and avoidance. So when the dark side comes calling, they have no defenses to resist it. Fear lead to anger which leads to hate which leads to suffering. Anakin is too old at 9 and has some fear of leaving his mother. So instead of addressing his fear, the Council doesn’t want to teach him. Obi-wan has what Yoda taught him as a youngling and what Qui-gon taught him as a padawan, but we clearly see that Anakin never loses his fear of losing the ones he cares about. There is this wonderful meme someone made of Grogu long after Din Djarin was gone that sums up what Anakin needed. It is not the attachment that is the problem, it is the fear of losing the attachment. Everyone dies so a properly trained Jedi must be prepared to accept the loss and carry on. If you don’t fear the loss, an attachment cannot lead to the dark side. One simple tool, though probably a hard lesson. So I’ve always felt the flaws in the Jedi teachings were there in the films without need to refer to an outside source. Though what Filoni had to say was very enlightening.

I’d argue that we don’t actually know Lucas told that to Filoni. (This is all my opinions and speculation of course.) Because yeah, Filoni said it and he worked with Lucas, but he’s his own person with his own ideas just like Gary Kurtz and Lawrence Kasdan were. Add that to the fact that everything Lucas has said, which I gave some examples of earlier, is in contradiction with what Filoni said, I genuinely cannot believe Filoni got those ideas from Lucas.

“The fact that everything must change and that things come and go through his life and that [Anakin] cannot hold onto things, which is a basic Jedi philosophy that he isn’t willing to accept emotionally and the reason that is because he was raised by his mother rather than the Jedi. If he’d have been taken in his first years and started to study to be a Jedi, he wouldn’t have this particular connection as strong as it is and he’d have been trained to love people but not to become attached to them."

I think its safer to assume that Filoni, being as big of an EU as he is, got a lot of ideas and interpretations from it, where lots of novels did raise questions about the Jedi because Lucas did not effectively convey what he was trying to say. Unless Lucas changed his mind on the topic of course, which with his history is completely possible, in which case I digress and will stand corrected.

I completely agree with you about the films and what they show, which is why I try to separate what Lucas said and understand it because it shows he didn’t do as good a job as he should have. It is easier for me to accept the idea that Lucas wanted the plot and story to show one thing, but the result was not what he wanted and its too late to try to fix it. The Jedi come off as a weird group who try to isolate themselves, seem to dismiss emotion, etc. and we get not clear reasons why, which makes us wonder why Anakin’s supposed love for his mother and Padme is wrong.

Also, Lucas’ idea of Attachment is not a bond nor is it love. It is purely greed, greed formed around people. These quotes sum it up well:

“Try not to confuse attachment with love. Attachment is about fear and dependency, and has more to do with love of self than love of another. Love without attachment is the purest love because it isn’t about what others can give you because you’re empty. It is about what you can give others because you’re already full.” — Yasmin Mogahed

“The problem is always that we mistake the idea of love for attachment. You know, we imagine that the grasping and clinging that we have in our relationships shows that we love. Whereas actually it is just attachment, which causes pain. You know, because the more we grasp the more we are afraid to lose, then if we do lose, then of course then of course we are going to suffer.

Attachment says: I love you, therefore I want you to make me happy. And genuine love says: I love you, therefore I want you to be happy. If that includes me, great, if it doesn’t include me, I just want your happiness. And so, it’s a very different feeling. You know, attachment, it’s like holding very tight. But genuine love is like holding very gently, nurturing, but allowing things to flow, not to be held tightly. The more tight we hold on to others, the more we will suffer." - Tenzin Palmo Jetsunma

So yeah, Lucas also failed to make it clear what exactly attachment was, because the only character we see in situations with family and a significant other is with Anakin, who also happens to be the one with attachments the films/Jedi are shunning.

To make it clear, I am a prequel fan. I grew up with them. This particular issue is the one flaw I find in these films and to me its a pretty big one because 1. I like knowing what storytellers want to do with their stories and 2. Because, as I’ve said, I think Lucas failed to deliver this point, and at the end of the day the general consensus and understanding of an art by the audience becomes the more important part.

I think Lucas did fail to deliver his points clearly. His story, the deep stuff, is too subtle. It is there, but you have to watch it several times and read about what he was trying to do, and some you don’t get unless you watch all 6 movies up to that point. I feel that the important point is similar to what you say. Attachment of the sort Anakin had is bad. But I think it is also clear that the Jedi, rather than teach how to have good relationships, just said not to have any. To totally avoid the temptation. I think that shows a failing in their teachings. And it is unfortunate that a significant deleted scene in TLJ repeats this idea as Luke trains Rey. But he makes it about the nature being intertwined with the Force. Anakin didn’t get this lesson. Luke did. And by get I don’t mean he wasn’t taught it. We don’t get to see Anakin’s training so we don’t know. But he didn’t learn it. A proper response to the though of Padme dying in childbirth would be that he would do what he could to prevent it, but if that was her fate then life goes on. Instead Anakin is clinging to her and it destroys him.

One thing I’ve found amusing is that Lucas has said that the force is not like yin/yang, but yet everything he has done with it is very much like the yin/yang concept. Even his talk of bringing balance to the force. So a lot of what Lucas says has to be taken with a grain of salt. I feel he lives in the world of “a certain point of view”. Sometimes I think some of our heated discussions are because some of us see through what he says to what he means and some of us take him as what he says is what he means.

Vladius said:

Superweapon VII said:

Vladius said:

act on instinct said:

Servii said:

I agree with what SparkySywer said above.

I get what George is trying to say about attachment, but it bugs me that he considers emotional connection to your own mother, or simply the act of falling in love with someone, as something problematic. Anakin falling for Padme is portrayed as a dangerous thing, like it’s a “sin,” but Anakin’s behavior towards Padme doesn’t become overtly possessive until RotS. It’s hard to gauge what Lucas considers to be crossing the line from “good” love to “bad/possessive” love. And we don’t really see much of the Jedi showing that compassionate love to people. And maybe that was intentional, but I don’t think it was.

I understand the resistance to the ideas about attachments but that’s really something to take up with Buddhism/Hinduism more than Lucas who is being a pretty loyal messenger to the eastern view on such things, rather than misinterpreting or inventing.

From the Bhagavad Gita, I’m sure it will sound familiar:
https://panindiahindu.wordpress.com/2017/05/17/love-vs-attachment-in-the-context-of-gita/

Exactly. It’s very difficult for a secular, materialist, western audience to accept the idea of not leading yourself by your emotions or what gives you “fulfillment” or sexual desire.

Something which shouldn’t be ignored is that unlike the Jedi, the average Hindu/Buddhist can still practice their faith without having to become an ascetic. It’s not the doctrine that’s the problem; it’s the Jedi’s dogmatic adherance to it. Them taking children too young to give informed consent only compounds the problem.

The Jedi aren’t completely ascetic either and there are clearly people that believe in the Force without becoming Jedi. But anyway, their dogmatic adherence isn’t a problem at all. The problem is Anakin’s refusal to follow the dogma. Like I said that’s really uncomfortable for westerners (especially Americans) who love individuality and rebellion above all else, which is ironic given how Star Wars started with being about rebellion.

The thing is that Anakin (or any of the younglings) could have chosen to leave the Jedi at any time. There’s nothing forcing them to stay. Anakin’s problem is that he can’t leave just to be with Padme, he wants to have it all. He’s ambitious. “I want more, and I know I shouldn’t.” He wants to be the big hero, to be on the Jedi Council, to be a master, to make people do what he wants. So Palpatine offers him the chance to save Padme by being more powerful, not less.

The problem with that is what Lucas told Filoni. It wasn’t just Anakin’s need for power, it is how he was taught that led to that. The duel between Qui-gon and Darth Maul was the duel for Anakin’s fate. Had Qui-gon won, Anakin would have turned out different. Qui-gon is portrayed as a rebel against the Jedi council. Anakin needed an unorthodox teacher teacher like that. Instead he got the by the book teacher in Obi-wan (his comments to Qui-gon both point out how out of step with the council Qui-gon was and how in step he himself was). That plus Palpatine whispering in his ear for thirteen years.

Also, the feeling I get from the PT is that the Jedi are flawed. I stopped reading the EU materials long before the PT came out so I have no clue if they support or contradict the impression I get from the PT itself. The flaw in the Jedi teaching does not lie in their dogma. It lies in the tools they teach their younglings and padawans to resist the temptation of the dark side. What we get is that they don’t teach them anything. They teach dark side abstinence and avoidance. So when the dark side comes calling, they have no defenses to resist it. Fear lead to anger which leads to hate which leads to suffering. Anakin is too old at 9 and has some fear of leaving his mother. So instead of addressing his fear, the Council doesn’t want to teach him. Obi-wan has what Yoda taught him as a youngling and what Qui-gon taught him as a padawan, but we clearly see that Anakin never loses his fear of losing the ones he cares about. There is this wonderful meme someone made of Grogu long after Din Djarin was gone that sums up what Anakin needed. It is not the attachment that is the problem, it is the fear of losing the attachment. Everyone dies so a properly trained Jedi must be prepared to accept the loss and carry on. If you don’t fear the loss, an attachment cannot lead to the dark side. One simple tool, though probably a hard lesson. So I’ve always felt the flaws in the Jedi teachings were there in the films without need to refer to an outside source. Though what Filoni had to say was very enlightening.

BedeHistory731 said:

So, what’s the TL;DR of your DS9 criticism? I’m curious.

War. Star Trek is supposed to be about avoiding a conflict. I felt at the time and still do that DS9 was copying B5. B5 was about a war. What led up to it, the war itself, and the aftermath and I feel that DS9 decided to copy that. They’d already copied the format. B5 was offered to Paramount before WB picked it up. But the whole DS9 war storyline just felt contrived and against the principles of Star Trek. Plus, I really felt Star Trek fell off after TNG season 5. They divided the creative team and both series suffered. And when Trials and Tribbleations aired I just had this realization that it was sad that the best episode of DS9 was a callback to TOS. I stopped watching not long after.

My problem with Discovery is that they changed everything for change sake. And season 1 is about war. Not just that, but a war started by a student of Sarek. The first episode just felt like a common war SF with a Trek skin. And I just couldn’t get into season 2 and haven’t tried since.

I love Picard. I think it is the perfect follow on to TNG. Loved everything a out it. I love Strange New Worlds, but it is so obviously a reboot, but they went back and are telling TOS and TNG quality stories. I haven’t had a chance to watch the finale yet.

So my enjoyment of Obi-wan Kenobi probably parallels my enjoyment of Picard. The funny thing is that I’ve encountered so many people who love Discovery and hate Picard. I find that baffling on some levels, but on others it makes sense. As a 40 year Star Trek fan it just doesn’t make sense. But when I see what some fans say about various parts of Star Trek, I can see that there is some logic to it. They aren’t looking at it the same way I do. I’ve been trying to find what lies behind my differing views from many of you about TLJ, TROS, and now Kenobi.

Kaweebo said:

Yotsuya, do you criticize anything in Star Wars, ever? Or is everything Disney puts out all just good and meaningful to you? I’m genuinely curious to know if there’s anything in Star Wars from, let’s say, the past twenty years, that you genuinely dislike?

It’s just weird to me that you’re on this forum of all places, where the conceit is that Star Wars has been mishandled but could be improved in the editing room like ANH was, yet you seem to think everything that’s been released has been flawless in every way.

I disliked a lot of the EU books. I’m not a fan of the newer comics and the old Marvel ones only because they were so cheesy. I also think The Book of Boba Fett was a mixed up mess. It was good, but it could have been better. They missed on out several opportunities and the episode pacing was horrible (why was there basically a Mando episode instead of breaking that out over more episodes?).

I also think TFA was a horrible film. It has fantastic character scenes but not much of a cohesive story. And AOTC fails on so many counts. I’m also not a fan of about half the changes Lucas has made in his post theatrical tinkering. Mostly the extended pod race in TPM. The original was too long and the longer one is just way too long.

But no, I don’t have the problem with a lot of the new stuff that many here do. But you should get into a Star Trek discussion with me. I have some very harsh views on Discovery and Deep Space Nine. In comparison to what Trek has done, no Star Wars fan has anything to complain about.

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

Both Kenobi and the ST suffer from the same basic issue. There is no story to tell, and both end in the same place where it started. Ultimately some of us are left wondering what was added to the overall story set out in the first six films. Star Wars has nothing new to say. It’s just regurgitating past stories while throwing in insufferable amounts of fan service.

I respect your opinion, but totally disagree. Sure, the saga can exist without this series, but this series addresses what Kenobi might have had to deal with after ROTS and before he could be the character he was in ANH. It brings the inquisitors into the live action canon (remember, Vader only helped the empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi - the Inquisitors were the ones doing most of the work). As for fan service, it is only insufferable if you don’t appreciate it. Those of us who appreciate it love every moment of it.

It addresses what Kenobi might have had to deal with by giving us another variation of what was already done in The Last Jedi. Star Wars is just going in circles. To me it’s just becoming very tiring, and reductive. There’s just so little originality. The start and end point of all these stories are set in stone, while the road in between is just repeating what was done before. Star Wars has become stale, like an old rock band who after 40+ years just plays the same set list over and over with very slight variations in the arangements of the music. I really hope Taika Waititi can do something different and exciting with his film, and thus inspire Lucasfilm to hire some good writers, that can bring back some creativity to this creative black hole.

I find it disappointing that you can’t see and enjoy the variations that make this unique. To put it in music terms, you are focused on the melody being the same while missing that the lyrics are different. It is a valid opinion, but I think you are missing out.