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yotsuya

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Post
#1292865
Topic
The Rise of Skywalker box office results: predictions and expectations
Time

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Huh I guess Star Wars really is dead and TLJ killed it. Good job, you proved it. Haha

Nope, Star Wars is in decline, and I’ve said nothing about TLJ being the cause, just that Disney’s strategy hasn’t worked, which is a reasonable conclusion, if the objective is growth, a conclusion supported by the recent analysis of bloomberg:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-08-07/star-wars-is-struggling-to-win-over-the-marvel-generation

What then would you say is Disney’s strategy that has been so disastrous?

Out with the old, in with the new. The Galaxy Edge theme park is the best evidence, that Disney gambled on the strength of the new canon. In the process they alienated a subsection of the previous generations of fans, whilst not being able to win over the new generation. They essentially rebooted the franchise with characters that aren’t as compelling, and so people lose interest.

I see you are unaware of what has happened at Disneyland. It is not the failure you think it is. The access to Galaxy’s Edge has been full up. Crowds have been good. What has not been good is overall attendance because no one wanted to compete with the crowds they expected for the opening period. Disney made plans to address that, but not before people had made their vacation plans and skipped over this summer. I expect next year to be one of Disney’s best at the two parks with Galaxy’s Edge.

And it is your opinion that they rebooted the franchise. That completely ignores the cyclical nature of the story and how much the ST is paralleling the EU stories that so many fans are familiar with. I don’t see any issue with attracting a new generation at all. A number of people who are more casual fans like the ST more then the previous movies. And the box office numbers (adjusted for inflation) show that the ST is more popular than the PT was. The only group I see with a big problem with the ST are those who had expectations of what the ST would and would not include and don’t like that it doesn’t live up to that. A repeat of the PT all over again. Let the writers tell their story and sit back and enjoy. I indulge in spoilers so I can divest myself of all expectations and just enjoy how the story unfolds. Your theories of deconstructing and rebooting over analyze the trilogy and widely miss what the movies say about themselves. The ST was always going to involve the death of Luke in the first Episode (the first one he was in) and Harrison has been saying Han should die for 30 years. They passed the torch and Carrie’s passing forced that to be even more complete. This is the Rey, Finn, Poe trilogy and the OT characters are really just enlarge cameos. You had expectations, perhaps not of exactly what the characters would do, but definitely what they shouldn’t do. It is almost as if Lucas, Abrams, and Johnson set out to make a trilogy that was exactly what you didn’t want to see. I see symmetry in the repetition. I see the parallels in myth, history, and pop culture (Star Wars is a more serious take on Flash Gordon and Buck Rogers after all) and I’m enjoying the tale. It is very much what happens after the great war is over and how things move on. Often it is ghosts of the past that haunt the future and bring back a defeated enemy. I find the story of the ST to be very mythic and very classic and not repetitive at all. Certainly not a reboot. If you want to know what I call a reboot, just look over at Star Trek under CBS. The ST has nice echos of the Zahn trilogy while being new and fresh. Just in the ST, they took 30 years instead of 10 years to regroup and attack the Republic.

Post
#1292863
Topic
The Rise of Skywalker box office results: predictions and expectations
Time

DrDre said:

Mocata said:

It’s an event movie, it’s a holiday release, I don’t see them struggling. Nothing’s impossible but I see the failure of Solo as something caused by timing and marketing rather than SW as a brand.

A brand which lately has been struggling to reach a new generation of fans, whilst alienating a fraction of the previous generations of fans:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-08-07/star-wars-is-struggling-to-win-over-the-marvel-generation

TROS will likely make a profit, but the question is whether it will break the $1B mark. If not it will be seen a failure nonetheless.

It should world wide. I’m very confident it will do better than TLJ. I will be very surprise if it fails to do that. That means in the US it should get about $630 million and worldwide about $1.4 billion.

Post
#1292861
Topic
Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

DominicCobb said:

Mocata said:

I’m thinking of the music that plays while Luke is lost in the snow, and while the film cuts to the Echo Base and a new piece comes in, the score alone carries on. I just always remember it because they used it in the Shadows of the Empire game soundtrack.

There’s a lot of music from Empire that was cut out, particularly at the beginning (and in some cases new pieces were recorded instead). But the intention originally was in fact to include that music in the film.

Two tracks were dumped in favor of other tracks. The search for Han and Luke has the Hyperspace track from the end of the film instead of what was written for it. And the concert version of the Imperial March was used for the reveal of the SSD instead of the track written for it. Like everything else, it is a matter of having the right music and sometimes what a composer comes up with and records is not what works best.

Post
#1292860
Topic
The Rise of Skywalker box office results: predictions and expectations
Time

So far the performance of the Star Wars movies has not surprised me in the slightest. There really aren’t strong figures to go on for the OT and with all the re-releases of Star Wars in those early years it really slants things. It was a game changer on many levels. The rest of the OT had to live up to that and did a great job. They were able to craft a sequel that was better than the original in many ways, though the younger version of myself did not appreciate it.

But since TPM, I have been tracking things. Box Office numbers can be fun to look at. TPM had along run. AOTC had a shorter run. ROTS had the shortest run, but the biggest opening. Just from what I’ve seen, this is likely to be the trend for the ST.

Another trend I’ve noticed is that complaints reduce over time. As time goes on the lasting impression of the films improves. The initial complaints mellow out and more attention is paid to what was done well.

Ultimately the only two statistics that we can track long term are box office numbers and home video numbers.

But here are some variables to consider to interpret the Google stats presented here. Age of fans. Social media use of fans. Dedicated online sites for fandom. Quality of trailer. Quality of toys. Variety of toys. Collectableness of toys. Well, I could go on and on with different things that can very widely and affect stats. Harry Potter fans were largely young when the first books came out and were of an internet savy generation. Marvel fans came in all ages. There had been a few movies, but mostly comic books. But the age of some of the characters means you have a mix of fans covering a wide range of ages and duration. Star Wars has a huge and varied fan base. Fans have come on board with every film and every decade. The thing Star Wars has are many online communities (like this one). So when looking at statistics from Google we have to ask if things are different. What stats are going to give the full picture.

For instance, you can wander over to YouTube to the official Star Wars channel and look up how many views the various trailers have had. The thing you have to keep in mind is that those numbers are not static and keep growing. And the channel isn’t old enough to cover the PT, much less the OT, so it is only useful for comparing the ST and the stand alones. The first teasers in order of release are:
TFA: 24 million
R1: 45 million
TLJ: 44 million
Solo: 13 million
TROS: 31 million
There was a second teaser for TLJ that has 82 million

Then there are the official trailers, not including TROS which hasn’t come out yet:
TFA: 103 million
R1: 38 million
TLJ: 53 million
Solo: 18 million
There was a second trailer for Rogue One that has 27 million

And then the box office from Box Office Mojo (adjusted domestic gross and including all the films):
ANH: 1,286,033,500
TESB: 710,548,800
ROTJ: 729,660,300
AHH SE: 271,395,100
TESB SE: 132,691,800
ROTJ SE: 89,256,800
TPM: 764,280,500
AOTC: 468,630,500
ROTS: 534,514,500
TCW: 44,123,400
TFA: 974,117,000
R1: 544,579,000
TLJ: 609,026,300
Solo: 205,860,700

Of the new films, Solo has done the worst in all areas. If you go by this list and the number of views just of the first trailer for TROS, I’d predict the teaser gets 5-10 million more views by the time the movie is released, the full trailer will have 50-60 million views, and the box office will be better than TLJ, but under $700,000,000.

And to me it isn’t a mystery why Solo bombed. It was the combination of too close to TLJ, the casting, the subject matter, and stiff competition in the theaters. The views of the trailer show the lack of interest.

But my question again is if the Google stats are so informative and show a lack of interest in TROS, why the views of the trailer are so high? And if it is so accurate, why didn’t Rogue One overtake TFA at the box office? Rogue One made more than ROTS, but less than TFA or TLJ, even though by these graphs it should have made more than at least TLJ. But it didn’t. Statistics can be very flawed. The trick is to find solid and repeatable statistics that do provide useful predictive information.

And as a side note, Avengers Endgame is #16 for adjusted box office for all time, between Avatar and ROTJ.

Post
#1292620
Topic
Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

The speculation about how the film may or may not perform is a complete waste of time.

In what sense? In this case it is not just speculation, it is a prediction based on a model, that has been scientifically validated, a model which shows movies with less interest on google trends tend to have lower box office returns, whereas higher interest generally leads to higher box office returns. So, it is simply an indicator, an indicator which gets more accurate as the movie’s release date approaches.

The truth will be in the proverbial pudding. Until then you can pat your back that everyone hates Disney Star Wars as much as you do. But the fact of the matter is, when the film is released, it’ll make the company a fair bit of money either way. And ultimately, who cares? The ST is done no matter how the film performs. The idea that Star Wars is ‘dead’ or will be after the film comes out is delusional. Disney will release more Star Wars films whether you like them or not. The only possible effect a disappointing box office run might have on the future of the franchise is that they’ll give into the nebulous desire for more of “what the fans want,” which is not something anyone should be foaming at the mouth for.

This is nonsense. I don’t hate Disney Star Wars anymore than I hated the prequels. I think both trilogies are deeply flawed, but they have their merits as well. I also haven’t stated, I expect Star Wars to be ‘dead’ in the future. So, I don’t know where all these baseless statements are coming from. I thought we had moved past these sort of outbursts, but I guess not.

The fact is interest in the franchise is waning, and I’m certainly curious about what Disney is going to do about it, and how TROS is going fit into that picture, both in terms of the current interest in the franchise, and the direction TROS might give for the future.

Not meant as an outburst. Figured you might take issue with some of my word choices but I was writing quickly and they did well as shorthand for - if not your feelings specifically - the feelings of many who talk about similar concerns on the internet. No need to take things personally, it was meant as a general comment.

As for the franchise waning, it’s a fact only so far as it’s naturally coming down from the all time high (77 excluded) of the TFA revival. Anything beyond that is up for debate - like any franchise Star Wars has always had its ups and downs. When the dust settles we’ll see if this is just a natural dip in between Episodes or something more. Either way it shouldn’t affect our view of the content itself.

Star Wars fever ran high from 77 to 80. It kept going from 80 to 83. After 83 it fizzled within 2 years. I saw the same with the PT. The energy was high, toys everywhere, then ROTS came out and poof… everything dropped off.

So I expect that after TROS that things are going to drop off faster. It isn’t a matter of the love of Star Wars waning, it is just that everyone knows the trilogy is over.

And I really can’t align the stats DrDre is quoting to the stats that currently, this far out, that the TROS teaser has 75% of the views of the TFA trailer. That is a huge number of views at this point compared to a teaser trailer that came out 4 years ago. To me that indicates that something about the stats DrDre is quoting are incomplete and aren’t giving us the whole picture.

Post
#1292617
Topic
Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

ChainsawAsh said:

DrDre said:

oojason said:

John Williams’ brother, Don: Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker Score Will Include ‘Every Theme That You Ever Heard’ (from IGN)

(with an inference that Episode IX runs for 135 minutes…)

 

It has been a while since I have heard Jar Jar’s theme 😉
 

Actually the scores of movies in general and Star Wars specifically are shorter than the actual runtime of the film. Having seen ANH and TESB with an orchestra, one of the first things I noticed is, that there are a number of scenes in both films, that don’t have any music at all. For example the trash compactor scene doesn’t have any score. So, if the score for TROS runs 135 min, we can expect TROS to have a runtime closer to 3 hrs.

It should be pointed out that quite often scenes are scored but then the decision is made in editing that the scene works better with no music. Case in point - the lightsaber duel in ESB is almost entirely scored, but very little of the score appears in the film. So the total minutes of score written and recorded is often quite a bit higher than the amount of score actually used in the film.

Which isn’t to say that every minute of the film is scored from the get go, there’s plenty of scenes that are never scored, too. But I don’t think you can get 3 hours from 135 minutes of score. Probably closer to 2.5 hours, with maybe 110-120 minutes of the written score used in the 150 minutes of runtime.

And sometimes they reuse a track instead of the one scored for it. It happened twice in TESB.

Post
#1292482
Topic
Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

Valheru_84 said:

If the leak in this article has any validity then it sounds like TROS will be the third ST movie to continue with the soft reboot / remake in repeating and reusing many plot points and elements from the OT, in particular ROTJ for what this article talks about which is essentially ANOTHER Death Star but as a ship this time (still thats going on four! Or FIVE if you’re just talking about the use of “Death Star tech”) that can at the least take out whole continents or possibly even up to whole planets again as it reportedly has the same power level of the first DS.

Apparently it even has a trench in its design for what would be the third trench run now, though to be mimicking ROTJ they would need to fly into the ship in order to destroy it.

https://movieweb.com/rise-of-skywalker-onager-star-destroyer-star-wars/

Well, if you really look at it, when you consider when the first Death Star was finished, it makes sense that that type of weapon can be scaled down and mounted on a ship. It makes a lot more sense than Starkiller base. Something tells me that that one is one of the pieces that came from Lucas. Just the sort of thing he would do.

But while we are talking about repeating elements, the PT had a fair share of repeating as well. It shared a lot of plot points with the OT. A lot.

And when you think about it, the hero of these films (Anakin, Luke, Rey) has yet to personally defeat the evil. Anakin did throw Palpatine over the railing, but during Luke’s time as hero. So Rey having a bigger part in Palpatine’s downfall would be an awesome way to round things out. And maybe we might see a redeemed Ben Solo live to see the end. Just hopeful guessing there.

And when it comes to graphs with Google, they are only as good as the data. If, as I am guessing, many people find the trailers via other means (such as the many social media venues) then they don’t need to use a search engine to find it. The fact that the views for the TROS teaser are at 75% of the views of TLJ indicates that people are finding the trailer other ways. So don’t take too much stock on one statistic. It might not be very accurate depending on the current links to things on the internet.

Post
#1291567
Topic
Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

SilverWook said:

Fantastic Films did a series of articles attempting to predict what would happen in ROTJ. This is the only issue I could find.
https://archive.org/details/Fantastic_Films_028_April_1982_vol4_no4_c2c-Tranzor-HQS

“One thing that will not happen is that Han will come back and marry Leia without a word or protest from Luke Skywalker?”

That was a good laugh. While we don’t know if the marriage ever happened, it might as well have and witout a word of protest from Luke. Love it.

Post
#1291230
Topic
Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

On the other hand, to me the whole trilogy has been about how there’s no way to definitively end tyranny, and how the dark side will always come back and you have to be prepared to stop it even in the face of knowing stopping it might not be permanent. To that end, I’ll be kinda upset if they “definitively” end the war, as I don’t think that’s be a very satisfying end to this story.

I think a good story should have a beginning and an end. A new story can unfold, but imo it should not be about Empire vs rebels, or a Jedi apprentice betraying his or her master. Been there, done that…twice… If you can’t tell an original story with new characters, who are put in new situations, better not tell a story at all, I think, or risk turning the franchise into a cliché. To paraphrase Bilbo Baggins, the Skywalker Saga already feels like butter scraped over too much bread for me.

You haven’t paid attention to how many fallen Jedi apprentices there are in the EU, have you? Not just in the post ROTJ, but the KOTOR as well.

Post
#1291177
Topic
Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

What I see as the crux of this saga is how the Skywalker family has ended up as the linchpin in the Sith/Jedi conflict. So in some way the Skywalker family will end the age old Sith/Jedi conflict once and for all. The other thing I see is a fundamental change in understanding of the force. We have always taken Ben’s word from ANH that there is a dark side and light side to the force and the dark side is inherantly evil. What if that is not the case and the evil comes from how it is used. So if the Skywalker family can end the conflict and if Rey can start a new tradition of balanced used of both sides of the force, there will be no further conflict in the Galaxy, at least not for a very very long time (more like 3000 years instead of 30).

And what I see in the ST is a bunch of ideas floated in the EU (I haven’t adjusted to calling it Legends) and distilling them into an epic story to finish up the Saga. The Thrawn trilogy esentially did exactly what the First Order is doing, but lacked the dark side force master running things. Palpatine came back in a way in the EU. There were other dangers as well. So this trilogy has a lot of familiar things that I see no need to question. I was not a big follower of the EU, but I kept up on what the major books were about and read quite a few of them. I’ve also watched all of Clone Wars and Rebels. I try not to bring any of that up, but it does provide a lot of insight into where Lucasfilm may be taking the Saga, at least in terms of the force. There has been a big emphasis on balance, which cropped up in TLJ. And also having read the old Marvel comics, the original Star Wars scripts, and a bunch of other things, I’ve seen a lot of Lucas’s discarded ideas come back and seen just how much of the Star Wars universe has come from outside the films (and ended up in later films). So while Lucas as stated that the force is not like yin yang, the way things are moving very much make it a yin yang with the users being good or evil or even neutral. TPM introduced balance into the film canon and now it is time to see what that really means.

When it comes to Snoke, we already know that he is the leader of the First Order which rose from the ashes of the Empire. It has not been covered, but likely from a industrial complex on the outer rim where they at first kept the Empire alive and then decided to reconquer the galaxy. At what point Snoke came into the picture we don’t know. At what point Kylo Ren was turned we don’t know. At what point they came up with Starkiller Base we don’t know (though I can see this being one of Palpatine’s projects). Who Snoke is is only as important as the end of the saga needs it to be. That Palpatine was not completely defeated in ROTJ brings this back to the origin of the saga in TPM with Anakin (or his offspring) bringing balance to the force and the final defeat of Palpatine and the Sith. Just which of the Snoke/Palpatine relationship theories is accurate is immaterial to the ending. They will do something to tie things together that they think makes sense and that some will like and some won’t. But I think the ending of the Saga is going to be as personal as ROTJ was. It is going to finish the expanded story that grew from the battle between Luke, Vader, and Palpatine in ROTJ to the Jedi vs. Sith over thousands of years and bringing balance to the force. Lucas’s retelling of the end of ROTJ was pretty much shoehorned on to the existing movie and there is room for whatever Lucas had in his mind before he canned the ST for a decade.

Post
#1291056
Topic
Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

MikeWW said:

yotsuya said:

Shopping Maul said:

NeverarGreat said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

SilverWook said:

MikeWW said:

SilverWook said:

A puppet being operated by the real villain?

But why have a dime store Palpatine if the plan all along was to use the real thing?

Because that’s how Palpatine operates. Masks, deceptions and lies. Snoke was just a more sophisticated version of wearing a hood and keeping his face in a strategically placed shadow.

That’s a nice in-universe explanation, but in reality it’s almost certain, that JJ intended for Snoke to be the big bad, and when RJ dispatched him, they had to bring back Palpatine in some form to up the ante. Had it been their intention to bring back Palpatine, they would logically have introduced him as the puppet master in a cameo at the end of TLJ. Additionally RJ clearly made TLJ with the intention to break free from what came before, whilst TROS seems to do the opposite promising a whole host of connections to the past.

I have to disagree with your interpretation of TLJ. That is the message that hermit Luke and Kylo Ren share. Both are proved wrong by the rest of the movie’s plot. The end of the movie is about embracing exactly what Luke said they didn’t need before Rey and Yoda brought him back to himself. And Kylo is trying desperately to be bad and be consumed by the dark side and yet he can’t seem to manage it. He’s trying to convince himself that he needs to destroy the past so he can be bad enough. But that is not RJ’s message in TLJ. Luke executes the very single handed battle with his lasersword against incredible odds and creates a legend, reminding Kylo and us that he will not be the last Jedi - meaning he is embracing the past and letting it carry forward. Quite the opposite of breaking free from what came before. And there is no hint that JJ is going to undo anything.

I disagree. TLJ spends most of its time deconstructing the mythology of Star Wars. It then reconstructs it in some form, but not by embracing the past. Luke’s last stand is not a reaffirmation of the reality of his legend in-universe, it is a ruse, which tells the audience, that legends and myths aren’t real, but they can serve a purpose when others choose to believe in them. This is in stark contrast to the OT, where the legend of Luke Skywalker is real in-universe. The Luke of the OT is the guy who really faces down the bad guys with his laser sword, whereas the Luke at the end of TLJ is an illusionist of sorts, intent on perpetuating a legend in-universe, while the viewer has been made aware it is all just smoke and mirrors.

This brings up the question of what Luke’s legend actually was, in universe, after the events of ROTJ.

Is Luke a Jedi and hero who can singlehandedly dispatch an AT-AT with a lightsaber and who blew up the Death Star, who defeated not only Vader but the Emperor in a single stroke? If so, I can see Luke wanting to distance himself from this story since it is rather deceptive.

Or is Luke in the minds of the people more of an aspirational figure whom they know is all-too human, and who only managed to topple an empire due to his compassion and loyalty helped by his powerful friends and family? This is a legend he would probably embrace but it isn’t as alluring to the everyday person so I would bet that most of the galaxy thinks of him as the Jedi superman.

So I think it’s very apt that Luke would act as an illusionist in embracing this admittedly false legend in TLJ. Luke doesn’t ultimately use the lightsaber to defeat his enemies, he throws it away in favor of a more compassionate, human approach. This is now lost to the galaxy in favor of his newly-affirmed legend of Jedi superman, and could be a sinister turn for his legacy and history.

Luke’s ‘in-universe’ legend post-ROTJ would have to be simply that he (supposedly) killed the bad guys. If he had let slip at the Ewok party that he had stood by and shown mercy while the Emperor and his bestie were slaughtering thousands of innocent beings, he would have been lynched. Imagine how thrilled the many victims of Palpatine/Vader’s tyranny would have been to hear that Vader was a nice guy after all and that it had been worth letting a few more Rebels die in order to facilitate Vader’s bedside conversion.

I keep harping on about it but it never ceases to bug me - Luke did not save the galaxy. At best he inadvertently (accidentally if you will) prevented Palpatine’s possible escape from the exploding Death Star. All he cared about was saving Vader’s soul and keeping his cool so he could become a guru.

Chewbacca saved the galaxy. TFA should have opened with “Chewbacca has vanished…”

The story we have on our end is not what Luke would be known for in universe. I can’t say if Vader’s part would have come out, but if it had it would have been that he came back to himself and sacrificed his life to kill the Emperor. The story we see is very compelling because we were not the Empire’s victims. The story told in universe would have to be adjusted and changed in order for it to be compelling and picked up as a legend. And they would only have Luke’s word as to what happened. The larger picture is that Luke, Han, Leia, Chewie, Lando, and Wedge, worked together to bring down the shields and destroy the Death Star, Darth Vader, and the Emperor. Learning that Luke is the new Jedi would have caused the public story to emphasize him because of the stories from the past of all the Jedi exploits. People would imagine that Luke had led the troops as Obi-wan, Anakin, Mace, and Yoda once had. They would want him to do it again. While Luke did it with illusion, he really played out exactly what people in universe would imagine a Jedi doing, so he very much was embracing the past and the legends of the Old Republic Jedi and giving his sister and Rey exactly what they needed, which he earlier said was not what they needed. He did a 180 on his views thanks to Rey and then Yoda.

When TROS picks up a year later, I imagine we are going to find out that Rey has been training with Luke’s force ghost and has turned her raw talent into great skill. I’m not sure if she will be recruiting and training even more just yet, but that will be her goal.

And even with Palpatine in the PT, we still don’t have much to his backstory. We had to wait until ROTS to hear of Darth Plagueis the Wise and we didn’t learn his first name in the films. There is so much about him that was left to the tie-in media to explain. We did get a full account of how he became Emeperor, but even that many viewers missed because it wasn’t handed to them on a plate but layered in obliquely. Many of the questions about Snoke that are outstanding are still outstanding with Palpatine even after the PT. Other than he started TPM as a Senator from Naboo, we know nothing about him. Even the name drop in ROTS doesn’t reveal if that was his master or his master’s master. Those things were all left to reveal in books. What we know of him from the books is almost everything. I see Snoke the same way. We get what we need in the films (he is the head of the First Order, a group that has risen from a fragment of the Empire) and he is a master of the Dark Side of the force and has lured Ben Solo to the dark side turning him into Kylo Ren, leader of the Knights of Ren. What more do we really need to know? Star Wars doesn’t have a history of giving us the full backstory, only what we need to know who these people are. There is so much that came from books and comics that is considered fact, but it isn’t in the films. We didn’t know anything about how Han won the Falcon until Solo came out. Han was a mystery except he made a run for Jabba the Hutt that ended in him dropping the shipment. We know the most about the Skywalkers, but not much about anyone else. How did Lando become head of Cloud City? We didn’t know how Owen and Beru were related to Luke until ATOC. Some answers came in films years later, some came in books right away, some have never been answered. But most have not been answered in the trilogy we meet these people in.

Me and Dr. Dre explained why Snoke is incomparable with OT Emperor already.

And I don’t agree.

Post
#1291055
Topic
Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

Shopping Maul said:

yotsuya said:

Shopping Maul said:

NeverarGreat said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

SilverWook said:

MikeWW said:

SilverWook said:

A puppet being operated by the real villain?

But why have a dime store Palpatine if the plan all along was to use the real thing?

Because that’s how Palpatine operates. Masks, deceptions and lies. Snoke was just a more sophisticated version of wearing a hood and keeping his face in a strategically placed shadow.

That’s a nice in-universe explanation, but in reality it’s almost certain, that JJ intended for Snoke to be the big bad, and when RJ dispatched him, they had to bring back Palpatine in some form to up the ante. Had it been their intention to bring back Palpatine, they would logically have introduced him as the puppet master in a cameo at the end of TLJ. Additionally RJ clearly made TLJ with the intention to break free from what came before, whilst TROS seems to do the opposite promising a whole host of connections to the past.

I have to disagree with your interpretation of TLJ. That is the message that hermit Luke and Kylo Ren share. Both are proved wrong by the rest of the movie’s plot. The end of the movie is about embracing exactly what Luke said they didn’t need before Rey and Yoda brought him back to himself. And Kylo is trying desperately to be bad and be consumed by the dark side and yet he can’t seem to manage it. He’s trying to convince himself that he needs to destroy the past so he can be bad enough. But that is not RJ’s message in TLJ. Luke executes the very single handed battle with his lasersword against incredible odds and creates a legend, reminding Kylo and us that he will not be the last Jedi - meaning he is embracing the past and letting it carry forward. Quite the opposite of breaking free from what came before. And there is no hint that JJ is going to undo anything.

I disagree. TLJ spends most of its time deconstructing the mythology of Star Wars. It then reconstructs it in some form, but not by embracing the past. Luke’s last stand is not a reaffirmation of the reality of his legend in-universe, it is a ruse, which tells the audience, that legends and myths aren’t real, but they can serve a purpose when others choose to believe in them. This is in stark contrast to the OT, where the legend of Luke Skywalker is real in-universe. The Luke of the OT is the guy who really faces down the bad guys with his laser sword, whereas the Luke at the end of TLJ is an illusionist of sorts, intent on perpetuating a legend in-universe, while the viewer has been made aware it is all just smoke and mirrors.

This brings up the question of what Luke’s legend actually was, in universe, after the events of ROTJ.

Is Luke a Jedi and hero who can singlehandedly dispatch an AT-AT with a lightsaber and who blew up the Death Star, who defeated not only Vader but the Emperor in a single stroke? If so, I can see Luke wanting to distance himself from this story since it is rather deceptive.

Or is Luke in the minds of the people more of an aspirational figure whom they know is all-too human, and who only managed to topple an empire due to his compassion and loyalty helped by his powerful friends and family? This is a legend he would probably embrace but it isn’t as alluring to the everyday person so I would bet that most of the galaxy thinks of him as the Jedi superman.

So I think it’s very apt that Luke would act as an illusionist in embracing this admittedly false legend in TLJ. Luke doesn’t ultimately use the lightsaber to defeat his enemies, he throws it away in favor of a more compassionate, human approach. This is now lost to the galaxy in favor of his newly-affirmed legend of Jedi superman, and could be a sinister turn for his legacy and history.

Luke’s ‘in-universe’ legend post-ROTJ would have to be simply that he (supposedly) killed the bad guys. If he had let slip at the Ewok party that he had stood by and shown mercy while the Emperor and his bestie were slaughtering thousands of innocent beings, he would have been lynched. Imagine how thrilled the many victims of Palpatine/Vader’s tyranny would have been to hear that Vader was a nice guy after all and that it had been worth letting a few more Rebels die in order to facilitate Vader’s bedside conversion.

I keep harping on about it but it never ceases to bug me - Luke did not save the galaxy. At best he inadvertently (accidentally if you will) prevented Palpatine’s possible escape from the exploding Death Star. All he cared about was saving Vader’s soul and keeping his cool so he could become a guru.

Chewbacca saved the galaxy. TFA should have opened with “Chewbacca has vanished…”

The story we have on our end is not what Luke would be known for in universe. I can’t say if Vader’s part would have come out, but if it had it would have been that he came back to himself and sacrificed his life to kill the Emperor. The story we see is very compelling because we were not the Empire’s victims. The story told in universe would have to be adjusted and changed in order for it to be compelling and picked up as a legend. And they would only have Luke’s word as to what happened. The larger picture is that Luke, Han, Leia, Chewie, Lando, and Wedge, worked together to bring down the shields and destroy the Death Star, Darth Vader, and the Emperor. Learning that Luke is the new Jedi would have caused the public story to emphasize him because of the stories from the past of all the Jedi exploits. People would imagine that Luke had led the troops as Obi-wan, Anakin, Mace, and Yoda once had. They would want him to do it again. While Luke did it with illusion, he really played out exactly what people in universe would imagine a Jedi doing, so he very much was embracing the past and the legends of the Old Republic Jedi and giving his sister and Rey exactly what they needed, which he earlier said was not what they needed. He did a 180 on his views thanks to Rey and then Yoda.

I agree with this in spirit, and I like the idea (if not the execution) of a disillusioned Luke reclaiming his legend, even if the legend isn’t 100% accurate. My beef is with ROTJ itself. To have the in-universe narrative be ‘Luke defeated the Emperor’ would be a lie. Luke accidentally defeated the Emperor - it was a lucky byproduct of Luke’s focus on his (and Anakin’s) personal religious goals. And the idea of the galaxy embracing the notion of Vader’s turn is outrageous. It might work for us as SW fans, but not for his victims. Would you forgive Osama Bin Laden because you’d heard he had a puppy?

All it would take (for me) is a bit of dialogue on Endor. Have Luke say to Leia something like “…he can feel when I’m near, which means the Emperor is on to us. You and Han take care of the shield generator. I’m going to make sure that the Emperor never leaves the Death Star”. Leia would weep at the power of Luke’s self-sacrifice and this would be the stuff of legends. This would be a hero whose goal is to defeat the bad guys (as per the trajectory of the saga). With Luke’s intentions stated thus, the details of Anakin’s turn and the real events surrounding Palpatine’s defeat would be irrelevant to the consequent legend, and Anakin’s noble sacrifice would be a by-product of Luke’s desire to protect the galaxy.

Yeah, when you think about the ramifications, the true events on the Death Star in ROTJ don’t play well as a public legend. Luke would have to lie about it - or just adopt a different point of view. I can see the public story being something like Luke went to stop Palpatine and in the process he was nearly beaten but managed tap into the dormant feelings in Vader and Vader scraficed himself to kill the Emperor. It doesn’t ask for the public to forgive Vader and keeps Luke the hero for without him risking his life, Vader would not have acted. That is close enough to the truth without revealing some of the things that would make the public mad at Luke. Frankly, looking at it now, I can’t see how Luke could have ever defeated Palpatine. Only keeping him occupied until the death star blew up. But by sparing Vader and crying out to him for help, Luke broke through and Palpatine was defeated by the only person strong enough. No one would understand Luke throwing down his saber and sparing Vader.

When TROS picks up a year later, I imagine we are going to find out that Rey has been training with Luke’s force ghost and has turned her raw talent into great skill. I’m not sure if she will be recruiting and training even more just yet, but that will be her goal.

And even with Palpatine in the PT, we still don’t have much to his backstory. We had to wait until ROTS to hear of Darth Plagueis the Wise and we didn’t learn his first name in the films. There is so much about him that was left to the tie-in media to explain. We did get a full account of how he became Emeperor, but even that many viewers missed because it wasn’t handed to them on a plate but layered in obliquely. Many of the questions about Snoke that are outstanding are still outstanding with Palpatine even after the PT. Other than he started TPM as a Senator from Naboo, we know nothing about him. Even the name drop in ROTS doesn’t reveal if that was his master or his master’s master. Those things were all left to reveal in books. What we know of him from the books is almost everything. I see Snoke the same way. We get what we need in the films (he is the head of the First Order, a group that has risen from a fragment of the Empire) and he is a master of the Dark Side of the force and has lured Ben Solo to the dark side turning him into Kylo Ren, leader of the Knights of Ren. What more do we really need to know? Star Wars doesn’t have a history of giving us the full backstory, only what we need to know who these people are. There is so much that came from books and comics that is considered fact, but it isn’t in the films. We didn’t know anything about how Han won the Falcon until Solo came out. Han was a mystery except he made a run for Jabba the Hutt that ended in him dropping the shipment. We know the most about the Skywalkers, but not much about anyone else. How did Lando become head of Cloud City? We didn’t know how Owen and Beru were related to Luke until ATOC. Some answers came in films years later, some came in books right away, some have never been answered. But most have not been answered in the trilogy we meet these people in.

All we ever needed to know about Palpatine was built into the story - there was an evil Empire, he was its Emperor, and Vader had helped him destroy the Jedi (and Luke’s father) and thus bring on ‘the dark times’ that everyone happened to be rebelling against. Even without the prequels, it works.

All we really need to know about Snoke is in the film in the same way. And I think the point of this is not going to be the ultimate defeat of evil, but building a new order of Jedi who aren’t as easy to prey on. Luke was trying to be an Old Republic Jedi. Rey is not. If they continue in that manner then solving why Ben became Kylo can break the cycle and we don’t need to know anything about Snoke we don’t already know. I think the key is the duality of the figure on the cave floor in TLJ. The original Jedi were not split between dark and light, but were the balance of dark and light. Luke was perpetuating the old ways as he trained Ben and it failed so going back to the beginning and relearning that original balance is going to be key.

This new series is the sequel to the OT and needs to supply some context. Who the heck is Snoke and how did he undo the rebel victory? Where and what was he this 30 years gone? What happened with Kylo? Why did Kylo join him? If this is just stuff that happens, then the entire OT is pointless - there will always be Sith Emperors and Anakin Skywalkers and the OT is basically trivial.

Even more galling is the fact that TFA was designed to make us wonder as fans. Mystery boxes mystery boxes. JJ knew he was making us wonder, and it’s ludicrous that he didn’t even have the answers himself. Yes, Lucas did the same thing (“the other is…uh…your sister! Yes, Leia’s your sister!”) but he had the excuse of writing on the fly due to not knowing how well the films would go down.

I can ignore his mystery boxes. Sure the answers would be nice to know, but the films don’t have to be where that is answered. JJ likes to just throw out such mysteries while Lucas carefully crafted one or two at a time. This is one reason I rate TFA so low. I’m hoping that with TROS being the end he doesn’t incorporate any new mysteries he isn’t prepared to reveal.

Post
#1291032
Topic
Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

Shopping Maul said:

NeverarGreat said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

SilverWook said:

MikeWW said:

SilverWook said:

A puppet being operated by the real villain?

But why have a dime store Palpatine if the plan all along was to use the real thing?

Because that’s how Palpatine operates. Masks, deceptions and lies. Snoke was just a more sophisticated version of wearing a hood and keeping his face in a strategically placed shadow.

That’s a nice in-universe explanation, but in reality it’s almost certain, that JJ intended for Snoke to be the big bad, and when RJ dispatched him, they had to bring back Palpatine in some form to up the ante. Had it been their intention to bring back Palpatine, they would logically have introduced him as the puppet master in a cameo at the end of TLJ. Additionally RJ clearly made TLJ with the intention to break free from what came before, whilst TROS seems to do the opposite promising a whole host of connections to the past.

I have to disagree with your interpretation of TLJ. That is the message that hermit Luke and Kylo Ren share. Both are proved wrong by the rest of the movie’s plot. The end of the movie is about embracing exactly what Luke said they didn’t need before Rey and Yoda brought him back to himself. And Kylo is trying desperately to be bad and be consumed by the dark side and yet he can’t seem to manage it. He’s trying to convince himself that he needs to destroy the past so he can be bad enough. But that is not RJ’s message in TLJ. Luke executes the very single handed battle with his lasersword against incredible odds and creates a legend, reminding Kylo and us that he will not be the last Jedi - meaning he is embracing the past and letting it carry forward. Quite the opposite of breaking free from what came before. And there is no hint that JJ is going to undo anything.

I disagree. TLJ spends most of its time deconstructing the mythology of Star Wars. It then reconstructs it in some form, but not by embracing the past. Luke’s last stand is not a reaffirmation of the reality of his legend in-universe, it is a ruse, which tells the audience, that legends and myths aren’t real, but they can serve a purpose when others choose to believe in them. This is in stark contrast to the OT, where the legend of Luke Skywalker is real in-universe. The Luke of the OT is the guy who really faces down the bad guys with his laser sword, whereas the Luke at the end of TLJ is an illusionist of sorts, intent on perpetuating a legend in-universe, while the viewer has been made aware it is all just smoke and mirrors.

This brings up the question of what Luke’s legend actually was, in universe, after the events of ROTJ.

Is Luke a Jedi and hero who can singlehandedly dispatch an AT-AT with a lightsaber and who blew up the Death Star, who defeated not only Vader but the Emperor in a single stroke? If so, I can see Luke wanting to distance himself from this story since it is rather deceptive.

Or is Luke in the minds of the people more of an aspirational figure whom they know is all-too human, and who only managed to topple an empire due to his compassion and loyalty helped by his powerful friends and family? This is a legend he would probably embrace but it isn’t as alluring to the everyday person so I would bet that most of the galaxy thinks of him as the Jedi superman.

So I think it’s very apt that Luke would act as an illusionist in embracing this admittedly false legend in TLJ. Luke doesn’t ultimately use the lightsaber to defeat his enemies, he throws it away in favor of a more compassionate, human approach. This is now lost to the galaxy in favor of his newly-affirmed legend of Jedi superman, and could be a sinister turn for his legacy and history.

Luke’s ‘in-universe’ legend post-ROTJ would have to be simply that he (supposedly) killed the bad guys. If he had let slip at the Ewok party that he had stood by and shown mercy while the Emperor and his bestie were slaughtering thousands of innocent beings, he would have been lynched. Imagine how thrilled the many victims of Palpatine/Vader’s tyranny would have been to hear that Vader was a nice guy after all and that it had been worth letting a few more Rebels die in order to facilitate Vader’s bedside conversion.

I keep harping on about it but it never ceases to bug me - Luke did not save the galaxy. At best he inadvertently (accidentally if you will) prevented Palpatine’s possible escape from the exploding Death Star. All he cared about was saving Vader’s soul and keeping his cool so he could become a guru.

Chewbacca saved the galaxy. TFA should have opened with “Chewbacca has vanished…”

The story we have on our end is not what Luke would be known for in universe. I can’t say if Vader’s part would have come out, but if it had it would have been that he came back to himself and sacrificed his life to kill the Emperor. The story we see is very compelling because we were not the Empire’s victims. The story told in universe would have to be adjusted and changed in order for it to be compelling and picked up as a legend. And they would only have Luke’s word as to what happened. The larger picture is that Luke, Han, Leia, Chewie, Lando, and Wedge, worked together to bring down the shields and destroy the Death Star, Darth Vader, and the Emperor. Learning that Luke is the new Jedi would have caused the public story to emphasize him because of the stories from the past of all the Jedi exploits. People would imagine that Luke had led the troops as Obi-wan, Anakin, Mace, and Yoda once had. They would want him to do it again. While Luke did it with illusion, he really played out exactly what people in universe would imagine a Jedi doing, so he very much was embracing the past and the legends of the Old Republic Jedi and giving his sister and Rey exactly what they needed, which he earlier said was not what they needed. He did a 180 on his views thanks to Rey and then Yoda.

When TROS picks up a year later, I imagine we are going to find out that Rey has been training with Luke’s force ghost and has turned her raw talent into great skill. I’m not sure if she will be recruiting and training even more just yet, but that will be her goal.

And even with Palpatine in the PT, we still don’t have much to his backstory. We had to wait until ROTS to hear of Darth Plagueis the Wise and we didn’t learn his first name in the films. There is so much about him that was left to the tie-in media to explain. We did get a full account of how he became Emeperor, but even that many viewers missed because it wasn’t handed to them on a plate but layered in obliquely. Many of the questions about Snoke that are outstanding are still outstanding with Palpatine even after the PT. Other than he started TPM as a Senator from Naboo, we know nothing about him. Even the name drop in ROTS doesn’t reveal if that was his master or his master’s master. Those things were all left to reveal in books. What we know of him from the books is almost everything. I see Snoke the same way. We get what we need in the films (he is the head of the First Order, a group that has risen from a fragment of the Empire) and he is a master of the Dark Side of the force and has lured Ben Solo to the dark side turning him into Kylo Ren, leader of the Knights of Ren. What more do we really need to know? Star Wars doesn’t have a history of giving us the full backstory, only what we need to know who these people are. There is so much that came from books and comics that is considered fact, but it isn’t in the films. We didn’t know anything about how Han won the Falcon until Solo came out. Han was a mystery except he made a run for Jabba the Hutt that ended in him dropping the shipment. We know the most about the Skywalkers, but not much about anyone else. How did Lando become head of Cloud City? We didn’t know how Owen and Beru were related to Luke until ATOC. Some answers came in films years later, some came in books right away, some have never been answered. But most have not been answered in the trilogy we meet these people in.

Post
#1291029
Topic
Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

RogueLeader said:

Speaking of Ewoks, if the wrecked Death Star is in fact the Death Star II and that planet is Endor, a small part of me would love it if Warwick Davis briefly reappeared as an old battle-scarred Wicket, now the chieftain of his tribe, who has grey, matted hair, is blind in one eye and is missing an ear. Maybe 3PO could use his god credentials and ask them for directions to the Haunted Coast!

If they are being details and accurate then the wreckage we see is Death Star I and that would be the Yavin system. I compared the ROTJ superlaser and the ANH superlaser to the trailer and what we see in the trailer matches the details of the ANH superlaser.

Post
#1290909
Topic
Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

DrDre said:

SilverWook said:

MikeWW said:

SilverWook said:

A puppet being operated by the real villain?

But why have a dime store Palpatine if the plan all along was to use the real thing?

Because that’s how Palpatine operates. Masks, deceptions and lies. Snoke was just a more sophisticated version of wearing a hood and keeping his face in a strategically placed shadow.

That’s a nice in-universe explanation, but in reality it’s almost certain, that JJ intended for Snoke to be the big bad, and when RJ dispatched him, they had to bring back Palpatine in some form to up the ante. Had it been their intention to bring back Palpatine, they would logically have introduced him as the puppet master in a cameo at the end of TLJ. Additionally RJ clearly made TLJ with the intention to break free from what came before, whilst TROS seems to do the opposite promising a whole host of connections to the past.

I have to disagree with your interpretation of TLJ. That is the message that hermit Luke and Kylo Ren share. Both are proved wrong by the rest of the movie’s plot. The end of the movie is about embracing exactly what Luke said they didn’t need before Rey and Yoda brought him back to himself. And Kylo is trying desperately to be bad and be consumed by the dark side and yet he can’t seem to manage it. He’s trying to convince himself that he needs to destroy the past so he can be bad enough. But that is not RJ’s message in TLJ. Luke executes the very single handed battle with his lasersword against incredible odds and creates a legend, reminding Kylo and us that he will not be the last Jedi - meaning he is embracing the past and letting it carry forward. Quite the opposite of breaking free from what came before. And there is no hint that JJ is going to undo anything.

Snoke was the bad guy, but when you think about it, we know as little about him as we knew about the Emperor in the OT. He was just a figure mentioned in conversation in ANH. He appeared briefly in a hologram in TESB, and only with his arrival on the Death Star in ROTJ do we really get a feeling of his personality. But we had no back story until the PT. Abrams has been going for that feeling with Snoke - the unfleshed out bad guy at the top. What we get in TROS is going to be something to end the saga (which they have been saying all along that IX was going to do) so who knows what secrets it might reveal. The spoilers have a lot of guesses on Palpatine’s role and there are ways to tie it all in AND tell us more about Snoke if there is a reason to. But he died as backstoryless as Palpatine did back in 1983 (when we had no idea how he came to power or any of his history).

Post
#1289239
Topic
Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

Mike Zero is fun to watch, but I don’t take anything he has to say seriously. Not unless he grabbed it from a more reliable source. He makes some interesting guesses, but ultimately he has a history of missing. The leaks for VII were pretty accurate and the entire story was pretty much out, with some omissions. Enough of VIII was out to have an idea of the story. So I think some of the leaks for IX are probably right, but not all of them. If the attention to detail is on the level it has been, then we are going back to Yavin IV and the wreckage of the first Death Star. Palpatine is back in spirit but not body. No solid information about how he is defeated, only claims from Lucasfilm that Palpatine was always going to be a part of IX. It is also clear that the basic story they are following is the one written by Lucas himself. They have altered the story to fit the new creative team (Luke not showing up until VIII) but the basic story remains the same. I think had Lucas done the ST, that Luke would have died in VII, not VIII. Lucas does believe in repeating poetry and rhymes in the form of story beats repeating. The PT was very much a repeat of the OT with many points, though the outcome of the trilogy was decidedly different. I am excited by this film and I hope they have done something that is both creative and true to Lucas’ vision of how the saga should end.

Post
#1282604
Topic
Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

‘Abrams revealed that in meetings with The Force Awakens and original trilogy writer Lawrence Kasdan as well as Rian Johnson and George Lucas, they settled on an ending that was specifically designed to bring the nine-film series to a satisfying conclusion. “If a kid is watching all nine movies,” Abrams said, “he or she sees this one path, this inevitability and that’s the challenge of this movie.”’

So it looks like its an ending everyone was in on.

https://www.slashfilm.com/j-j-abrams-star-wars-the-rise-of-skywalker-approach/?fbclid=IwAR0B35viJrDK_y22b9QuHuCLipTnrTV_IEPGb2Zus3qanyF9m3_F37ayUTQ

Post
#1282603
Topic
Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

Hal 9000 said:

Just read about “new desert planet Pasaana.”

It’s a minor thing, but if you want a desert planet why not pick Jakku or Tatooine, and if you want a new planet then why another desert planet?

It would actually be very common. Any planet on the inside of the Goldilocks zone would tend to be hot and probably arid, or it could just have weird weather patterns that render much of it hot and arid.

Post
#1282295
Topic
Speculation about the 4K Future of AOTC and ROTS
Time

It is like putting a PAL master on BR. For those in the UK there will be a little improvement over DVD, but for us in the States it is a vast improvement.

Same with these two movies. Upscaling them and releasing them in 4k, even without any other processing, will produce something that looks far better than the BR release. For one thing the compression artifacts get hidden with the increased pixel depth.

Post
#1281414
Topic
Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

No I don’t think it’s just Rey at all. That’s one of the biggest points of the final scene of TLJ, showing that this is a potential that lives in many (random people) throughout the galaxy. I hope TROS delves into this aspect in some regard.

In the larger sense, in terms of what I’m explaining, it’s my interpretation and I think it’s good that it’s left to interpretation. In my mind where Rey gets her powers from doesn’t matter so much as what she chooses to do with them.

Which brings us back to motivation. It’s not just what she does, but why? Luke wanted to leave Tatooine, and join his friends in the Academy. He wanted to know who his father was, and follow in his footsteps. Luke has personal motivations for joining the fight, for wanting to be a Jedi. What is Rey’s motivation going into TROS? Why does she want to be a Jedi? Thusfar it seems, that it is, because the plot has forced her into this position. Her main motivation for going to find Luke, is the powers she recieved from on high. Then Luke disappoints, and she’s convinced through Snoke’s deception, that Ben Solo is the answer for the Resistance. Then that plan awry, she ends up saving the remains of the Resistance, and is now apparently the heir to the Jedi religion. Her entire character development is heavily plot driven, forced into her position in the story by circumstances.

Gee, that sounds like a Greek myth.

Post
#1278764
Topic
Can't be Bothered: justifying Rey's power vs Luke's
Time

NeverarGreat said:

yotsuya said:

I just found this and read the first post. I had to laugh at the idea that Rey flew the Falcon so well. She practically crashed the thing trying to take off. Once they were in the air she did pretty good, but when you compare that to Luke, he flew his X-wing like a pro from the beginning.

Luke is the best stunt pilot in the outer rim territories, and has clearly been flying for years. And it’s notable that even he never does anything terribly flashy in the OT. Rey’s handling of the Falcon is about how you’d expect in the first few moments, but after that she successfully executes maneuvers far in excess of anything we’ve seen before. If anything, the contrast between almost crashing and ace-level piloting makes her abilities all the more noticeable.

We don’t know what experience either of them have, but they both obviously have quite a bit. We only see either of them using speeders and are told that Luke has used a Skyhopper before. So Rey does a much worse job than Luke at the start and they both fair about the same not too long later (Luke successfully dogfights with highly trained Imperial pilots who in the end take out 27 of the 30 rebel craft).

Rey has to try things before she succeeds, pretty much the way Luke did. And she does have a teacher. She learns just about everything she does from Kylo Ren.

She has never seen Klyo use a Jedi mind trick or even successfully gain his desired information from interrogation, though she manages a successful and proper mind trick after a minute or two of trying.
She has never seen successful telekinesis or levitation, yet apparently learns this on the first attempt after only a moment of intention from Kylo. Interestingly, Kylo never indicates that he is aware of teaching Rey ‘You need a teacher! I can show you the ways of the Force!’ and Rey never acknowledges that she has gained knowledge from Kylo ‘The Force…’.

Rey read Kylo’s mind. Who know what she may have seen and now knows is possible. She also was given a vision from the Lightsaber. So pretty much anything she tries after that point is not out of thin air. Now if she did everything perfect the first time and didn’t have to try a few times, their might be a point, but she does struggle as much as Luke did learning any particular skill.

I’d still like to know who taught Luke to lift his lightsaber in TESB.

If only there was some sort of Jedi mentor which has been established to help Luke from beyond the grave, or a time jump of several years to help the audience suspend their disbelief. Or both.

Well, from his reaction to seeing Ben, it seems pretty clear Ben had not appeared to him before so Ben would not have been teaching him from beyond the grave. Otherwise there would be no need for Yoda.

Post
#1278622
Topic
Can't be Bothered: justifying Rey's power vs Luke's
Time

I just found this and read the first post. I had to laugh at the idea that Rey flew the Falcon so well. She practically crashed the thing trying to take off. Once they were in the air she did pretty good, but when you compare that to Luke, he flew his X-wing like a pro from the beginning. Rey has to try things before she succeeds, pretty much the way Luke did. And she does have a teacher. She learns just about everything she does from Kylo Ren. I’d still like to know who taught Luke to lift his lightsaber in TESB.

Post
#1278060
Topic
Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

And just a note, the Death Star remnants we seen in the trailer are the 1st death star. The inner ring in the dish gives it away. The first Death Star has a ring closer to the edge and the second Death Star has a ring much further in. The trailer has a ring closer to the edge. Not to say that the story won’t go the other way, but Abrams seems too big a nerd to use the wrong Death Star image.

Post
#1278059
Topic
Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

I think the new books have the clue. They have spent time building a contingency plan that Palpatine put in place that led to the rise of the First Order. So the First Order is Palpatine’s doing, not Snoke. Snoke just took over. And not only did Kennedy and Abrams have Lucas’s treatment for the ST, but they even brought the man himself in to help them steer this movie to a proper saga conclusion.

One thing that really irks me is blaming the parent company. I have seen not one shred of evidence that Disney had dictated anything to Lucasfilm regarding this trilogy. What I have seen is that a lot of the complaints blame Disney and are then found to have come from Lucas himself. I know some fanboys don’t like Rey, but she was basically Lucas’s invention. I think Palptine coming back will have more significance than just a big bad for the ending. I don’t think he will play a role beyond Rey and Kylo’s story. Kylo idolizes Vader and thinks that he is going to finish what Vader started, but everything that happened in the PT and OT was Palpatine’s plan, not Vader’s. What will happen when Kylo finds that out? Finds out that Vader was just a tool Palpatine used. They are saying (and if it is like Lucas’s sayings, you know how accurate that is) that Palpatine coming back was in the plan from the beginning (meaning they had a plan and TLJ’s middle chapter was not full of random Rian Johnson events) so I think we can blame this idea firmly on George. I think that Kylo needs to confront Palpatine and Anakin (as ghosts probably) to come to terms with who he is and what direction his life needs to take. What Kennedy, Abrams, Lucas, and Terrio actually do could differ greatly, but the last two films have a lot of hints that Kylo is trying to be dark but really isn’t.

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Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
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There is a lot to digest in this trailer. Palpatine is one of those. How will he come back. He seems to be of such big importance that his presence in the movie is not a secret. Ian is listed on IMDB as Palpatine. The question is if he is back in spirit, back in body, or back in hologram. The thing that is not a question to me is why he is back. There has been nothing about Snoke that has been a threat. He was the supreme leader of the First Order, but how he came to be that and all sorts of things about his past were left hidden. I would not be surprised if Palpatine is back in body and we find that he was controlling Snoke from behind the scenes. Palpatine’s contingency plan that has evidently cropped up in so many of the new books is a strong hint that Palpatine was coming back. While they aren’t part of the movies, they completely explain the rise of the First Order. It also fulfills Abrams promise to make this a proper close to the Saga. Palpatine was the bad guy of the previous two trilogies and the entire saga coming back to him only makes sense.

I’m far more interested in the identity of the desert planet. I see 4 possiblities. It is Tatooine (too obvious, but possible). It is Jakku (appropriate for the trilogy as both other trilogies have revisited the first planet in a later movie). It is Jedha. This is my favorite - the one I’m hoping for as that world has ties to the Jedi and the Force and would tie in the importance of that film. It is my leading contender because of the natives and the vegetation (Tatooine had so little except at the Lars homestead and Jakku had nothing). But we fall into a trap that the environments we have seen on planets is the entire planet is the same. That may be true for Tatooine, Hoth, and Jakku, but there is no reason to believe that is true for any other planet as it isn’t the case for our own. The last possibility is that it is new planet.

The mountainous terrain at night seems to be a new planet. Someone thought they saw Cloud City in one clip. The red forest is probably a new planet. The planet with the pieces of the Death Star would be Yavin IV or the moon of Endor. Either one has possibilities though from the shape of the weapon dish, I believe it is the first Death Star. And it would be like Abrams to take us back to the beginning for the ending.

As for what the story is, there was no clue that I could detect. A few action scenes and a few scenes that show things happening, but nothing to string together.

I am very interested. I think I sense a big saga level ending in the works. If he can pull this off, I will take back a lot of the negative comments I’ve made about Abrams.