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yotsuya

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2-Dec-2008
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3-Aug-2020
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Post
#1331383
Topic
<strong>Star Wars (1977)</strong> - a General <strong>Random Thoughts</strong> thread
Time

People who read submitted stories for consideration usually dump stories that don’t imediately grab their attention. If the writer can’t grab the reader in the first 10 minutes, it is a fail. But when you get an established writer that kind of goes out the window. By then Woody Allen was a big deal and could make the movies he wanted. Some people love his work. Some hate it. But by 1977 when he did Annie Hall, he could basically do what he wanted. So if you really want to know why it won over Star Wars, you have to watch the entire film, no matter how much you hate it. The thing that is true about his movies (which used to star him and now feature someone less annoying in a similar role) is that they are all the same in some ways. The ones he’s made more recently (that he is not in) are far better than his 70’s and 80’s films.

But the real reason Star Wars did not win is because of its genre. Whether you call it science fiction, fantasy, science fantasy, or space adventure, it is not a genre that has ever won an academy award for best picture. The fact it was nominated was incredible. The academy doesn’t usually take films like that seriously.

Post
#1331340
Topic
ROTJ DE Victory Celebration Edit (a Work In Progress)
Time

Yeah, I do all my editing with just stereo audio and then edit the 5.1 mix separately to fit the video and stereo. If you have a clean splice at one or two given points it is pretty easy. From what you describe you want the 1983 version up until that scene and then the 97 version for a bit, and then go back to the 1983 end credits. visually the end credits can be changed after the title card portion when it switches to the crawl. Sound wise that is a harder edit. For the 97 SE the repeated a section of the end credit music so you need to find a spot before that repeat to make your audio splice that won’t be noticeable, or just fix the end credit music by removing that repeat.

Post
#1331277
Topic
Star Wars: The Skywalker Saga 4k UHD -- 27 DISC Boxed Set -- 3/31/2020
Time

Some of us have no interest in 4k. No 4k TV’s, no 4k player. I still watch DVD’s quite often. I’m watching an upscale of the EU broadcast (widescreen SD) of the 97 SE TESB as I type.

The way I see it, if the 18 disc blu-ray set has the same special feature discs as the 4k 27 disk set, that the blu-ray versions of the films are going to identical. So either all the discs in all the sets are the 2011 version or they are all the 2019 version. And as the last BR release came BEFORE the D+ version premiered, I think it is safe to assume that the new BR’s are all the new D+ version. Though I am not getting a copy (mostly for financial reasons) right away so It would be good to hear if that is truly the case before I spend the money for something I don’t need. And they are also available on DVD, just no special features.

Post
#1331276
Topic
How do you feel about Star Wars being re-titled A New Hope in 1981?
Time

Well, my feeling is that it should have had a better title so I see it as the same. I hate topics that are catch all and aren’t allowed to migrate to other topics that come up in regular conversation. Some topics are so broad you can’t keep up and others become so narrow that they die a quick death. Topics that are interesting stray around the original topic and occasionally come back to it.

Post
#1331248
Topic
What's your take on Emperor Palpatine being brought back for The Rise of Skywalker?
Time

I think Palpatine was the best idea. It really ties in to the Flash Gordon origins of the saga. Ming seemed to die more than once and he always came back. In the 1980 film, it ends with someone picking up Ming’s ring and Mind laughing. Having Snoke be a Palpatine puppet and having Palpatine back feels similar, but more epic. In ROTJ we didn’t see him die, but here we did. I think they did a good job of finding an ending for the saga that tied things together and had that epic feel that Star Wars has always had. In 1977 it was a farmboy against the empire and the farm boy won against all odds. Starting things of that way really required something special. Had they laid the groundwork with a cohesive story instead of writing this in installments, they could have crafted a much better villain. Darth Plaugues the Wise for instance. But they didn’t. Without laying a better foundation in the previous two films, Palpatine was the best villain to come in and finish off with. It feels very mythic to me. And I like that about Star Wars. It is a modern myth and should be a bit larger than life without being campy like Flash Gordon was. I think TROS nailed it and the reason they did was because they brought Palpatine back.

Post
#1331240
Topic
Is the theater where you saw Star Wars still standing ?
Time

Saw this again and checked on Google Maps. It is no longer a theater. Still standing though. The street view has a good picture of it. I can see the side door where someone conned me into letting them in. It was a three screen theater with Mann. I can’t actually remember seeing any of the films there, but I have a clear memory of a Ray Harryhousen double feature (one was Jason and the Argonaughts) and Star Trek: The Motion Picture (I still have the Enterprise cutaway poster bought that night). But I lived in that city when all the OT were originally released. There was only one other theater in town, a single screen Fox theater (it became a community playhouse and still has the Fox sign - beautiful design details common to some older theaters). I remember seeing Battlestar Galactica, Buck Rogers, and the Wilderness Family there. There was also a drive in and I remember noting that my 10th viewing of Star Wars was there as a double feature with Logan’s Run. From my memory or which car we took, it was before July 1978.

I saw the SE in a theater a friend worked at and I think my second viewing of TPM and AOTC was there as well. That is where I saw TROS twice.

It’s funny, a lot of movies I know I saw, but so few have memories of exactly which theater tied to them. Like I know I saw The Black Hole, but no idea where. A few I can even remember down to which screen they were on.

I joined a FB group for my city and I’ve found where all the old theaters were in town. A couple are still standing. One is a parking lot. One old name has been recycled as a art house. The theater where I saw Dune is still standing, but it is a music venue. The only theater that still shows movies from when I was a kid is one my family owned at the time. I’m pretty sure I saw several Disney movies there. None of the rest are theaters any more and one isn’t even standing any more.

Post
#1331233
Topic
What was George talking about here? In his conversation with Alan Dean Foster?
Time

That is very interesting. I can see what Lucas did in the the PT. He took his idea of an inept puppet Emperor and his idea of a Sith overloard and he made them the same character. The inept seeming human as the public face while as the evil Sith lord he is actually the one controlling things. The ultimate in political duplicity. I though that was one genius thing he did in the PT.

And the castle concept came back for Rogue One. I’m glad there were no gremlins.

And we really don’t know Palpatine’s age. He could be quite old. There is nothing in the official canon to say (though some in the books and comics). And TROS has given us a deeper possibility that somewhere along the line the Sith started taking over their apprentices and while that is Palpatine’s body, the being inside is a mix of him and his predecessors and is a culmination of great evil. That fits with the makeup description.

Post
#1331222
Topic
How do you feel about Star Wars being re-titled A New Hope in 1981?
Time

The topic is “How do you feel about Star Wars being re-titled A New Hope in 1981”. I feel that discussing alternate titles we feel might be better is very on topic. As I asked above, what would an appropriate 1977 sub-title for the movie have been. If the crawl had started with a title, what should it have been in 1977? I have yet to think of something that even sounds good. But there has to be something better than A New Hope.

Post
#1331118
Topic
How do you feel about Star Wars being re-titled A New Hope in 1981?
Time

ray_afraid said:

MASTER260 said:

it kinda obligated Lucasfilm to make the prequels because you couldn’t have episodes 4, 5, and 6 without 1, 2, and 3, otherwise it looks stupid.

Totally disagree. Not having the beginning of the story was cool & interesting. As if those stories were lost to time with this all happening “A Long Time Ago.”

Z6PO said:

ray_afraid said:

ChainsawAsh said:

The Princess of Alderaan would have been such a better title…

I’ve seen that passed around, & I disagree.
If Leia was the main character, maybe. But it’s clearly Luke’s story.
(Also, the aping of Edgar Rice Burroughs is right on the nose. Dunno If I hate that or love it.)

Leia may not be the main character, but she sets things in motion, and keep them in motion. She’s basically giving (direct and indirect) orders to the male characters throughout the movie!

Sure, but she isn’t the movies focus enough to title the film after her.
If we’re gonna change the title, I’d rather it be one that references the overarching events than any one character.

How is that different from A Princess of Mars? That princess wasn’t the main protagonist either.

Post
#1331078
Topic
Star Wars Prequels 35mm 4K Filmized Editions by Emanswfan (a WIP)
Time

emanswfan said:

Tantive3+1 said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnhqwRQf04A&feature=youtu.be

Gosh, even for virtually no color correction, that’s a beauty.

I’ll be honest, TPM is the hardest one to work on.

Also, while I did get a new job, it’s on hold due to the pandemic, but rest assured as soon as I start having more income I will be saving up for a new machine with which I can actually get decent rendering speeds.

In the meantime, I will still be doing preliminary SDR grades as soon as I get a hold of the new 4K discs.

I don’t know about you, but I’ve found the PT to be easier to work on, but global correcctions don’t work on a few scenes. For TPM, I’ve found that I have to treat the first part of the film a little different and the the rest pretty much works as a whole. I detest the magenta tones that the actual film had in the first hd transfer (not sure when it was done for TPM, but 2003 for the OT) so I have been working on the Republic ship explosion to tone that down. Qui-gon and Maul’s short duel on Tatooine might need something different as well. TPM is the first of the film films that I think I have a decent color grade on as well as a completed edit (I loved the theatrical cut but I hate puppet Yoda). For ATOC I’ve had to separately adjust the Tusken Raider scenes because they come even more purple unless I do. And I’ve also been standardizing the opening crawl and end credit colors.

Post
#1330919
Topic
How do you feel about Star Wars being re-titled A New Hope in 1981?
Time

Tantive3+1 said:

According to GL he always originally intended for the episode title to be added to the SW opening crawl back in '77 but the studio wouldn’t let him.

I think he did, but considering that TESB was originally going to be Episode II, Star Wars would have been Episode I. So the Episode IV didn’t happen until sometime during the production of TESB when that one became Episode V.

Post
#1330918
Topic
How do you feel about Star Wars being re-titled A New Hope in 1981?
Time

Puggo - Jar Jar’s Yoda said:

yotsuya said:

BedeHistory731 said:

yotsuya said:

A careful review of all the different releases and comparing them to the timeline shows that the original May 1977 version of the film (see Moth3r’s bootleg and Puggo Grand) had 4 differences. 3 FX shots and the end credits. Not to mention the soundtrack.

I’m curious, which FX shots are replacements?

When the Falcon leaves Tatooine, the shot of the Star Destroyer shooting at it, then the composite shot of the Yavin IV temple when Leia et al arrive, and then the shot with the Rebel lookout when the Rebel fighters blast off. There are subtle differences between those shots in Moth3r’s bootleg, Puggo Grand, JSC, and SWE and those same shots in Definitive Collection, Faces, GOUT, SSE, 4K77, and all the non-English versions (German, Spanish, and French specifically). Two of the were changed for the SE. Because SSE, 4K77 and all the non-English versions (even the earliest pan&scan releases) match the Definitive Collection and GOUT, the change had to be made for the late 77 release and they must have used a modified copy of the May 1977 edit for the early English language home video releases which would explain the JSC and SWE. But thanks to them we have them in widescreen. They aren’t too noticeable upscaled to 720p and spliced into 4K77.

I’m not sure if those shots are actually different. Having captured the 16mm myself for PG (and PE), I can say there are many ways I could have captured it, which would have led to differences is appearance. The one and only proven shot difference that any of my 16mm captures uncovered was in ESB when Luke was rescued from Cloud City. That caused a bit of a stir, I might add.

When you compare them frame by frame they are definitely different. The first shot has different timing and different explosions. It looks like a test run of the real FX shot. The second had a distinct timing difference with the people walking. The third one also has a timing difference and a distinct difference to the planet/sky composite. And it is consistent between Moth3r, yours, JSC, and the SWE. Frame by frame all those are identical and all those are distinctly different from the SSE, 4k77, the Spanish THX, French TXH, DC, Faces and GOUT (the last three are from the same master recording). The later two shots were changed for the SE, but the first one (the falcon being shot at) is the same for the 97 SE through Disney+ as the GOUT. So it is definitely not any problem with the capture for it to be so consistent on those particular versions. It is definitely a different shot that was replaced sometime later in 1977 (before the Technicolor prints and international prints) were struck.

And there is a topic on here where this was discussed in length, although the didn’t find a reason for it. I believe the reason is that the May 1977 interpositive and prints were pulled and ended up being the best copies to use for telecines later (even the O-neg took a beating form all the interprositives they printed off of it). For your and Moth3r’s projects, it was the original version (there is also another telecine out there of the same version with the original End credits). For all the English telecines prior to DC, a copy with the opening crawl and end credits replaced but not the three scenes was used. A new Interpositive was struck in the 80’s that they used for the DC (and re-released as Faces and GOUT) that changed the English versions to match the foreign language versions. Because of what those early version have in them and the known timeline of when prints were made, the only point those scenes could have been changed is before the technicolor and international versions were made. All the early versions have a mono soundtrack that is just a downmix of the stereo. That is another clue as the mono mix wasn’t made until later. And I checked with several of the various team members who have had access to the 35 mm films, and none of them have seen the alternate end credits on any 35 mm print. From what I see, the only way these 4 things could be different is if the movie was edited sometime between May 1977 and when the international and Technicolor prints were made. And more likely it was not long after the interprositives for the May 1977 release were struck. My guess is that all the 70mm prints were this older verion (as several of the opening screens were 70 mm). We do now they were rushed and these three shots are acceptable, but not perfect and would be easy to change before more interprositives were struck. especially since they are all exactly the same length which caused no change to the soundtrack.

And your Puggo Grand is the best copy of the alternate end credits. I used a small bit of about 10 frames to recreate it. The credits are quite different in spacing and the Dolby logo is completely different. I just redid it from better sources and the little bit where the end title cards changes to the end title scroll has a flash of an overlap mistake that I haven’t been able to recreate accurately. So regardless of anything else, the end credits were redone and the original only appears in 3 sources. But the three FX shots are different as well. So is the opening crawl, which is more than just a new crawl text, but we know when that happened.

Post
#1330625
Topic
How do you feel about Star Wars being re-titled A New Hope in 1981?
Time

My favorite way to watch the original is 4k77 with the mono soundtrack. I was quite offended with the GOUT when I found out that because they reverted the opening crawl to the 1977 one and used the DC/Faces soundtrack that they had essentially created a new version. My favorite way to watch Episode IV is the DC/Faces version. It takes some editing to watch it that way in decent quality.

Post
#1330623
Topic
How do you feel about Star Wars being re-titled A New Hope in 1981?
Time

BedeHistory731 said:

yotsuya said:

A careful review of all the different releases and comparing them to the timeline shows that the original May 1977 version of the film (see Moth3r’s bootleg and Puggo Grand) had 4 differences. 3 FX shots and the end credits. Not to mention the soundtrack.

I’m curious, which FX shots are replacements?

When the Falcon leaves Tatooine, the shot of the Star Destroyer shooting at it, then the composite shot of the Yavin IV temple when Leia et al arrive, and then the shot with the Rebel lookout when the Rebel fighters blast off. There are subtle differences between those shots in Moth3r’s bootleg, Puggo Grand, JSC, and SWE and those same shots in Definitive Collection, Faces, GOUT, SSE, 4K77, and all the non-English versions (German, Spanish, and French specifically). Two of the were changed for the SE. Because SSE, 4K77 and all the non-English versions (even the earliest pan&scan releases) match the Definitive Collection and GOUT, the change had to be made for the late 77 release and they must have used a modified copy of the May 1977 edit for the early English language home video releases which would explain the JSC and SWE. But thanks to them we have them in widescreen. They aren’t too noticeable upscaled to 720p and spliced into 4K77.

Post
#1330322
Topic
How do you feel about Star Wars being re-titled A New Hope in 1981?
Time

I do think it is a stupid title. But I do call it that. When I do a trilogy or saga viewing, I want it to say Episode IV A New Hope. And that wasn’t the first change to the film.

A careful review of all the different releases and comparing them to the timeline shows that the original May 1977 version of the film (see Moth3r’s bootleg and Puggo Grand) had 4 differences. 3 FX shots and the end credits. Not to mention the soundtrack. When the film went into wider release those 3 FX shots and the end credits were replaced and the mono soundtrack was created. So the original May 1977 version and the later 1977 version with the mono soundtrack are quite a bit different. For some reason, those 3 FX shots (though not the end credits) were in the version that sourced all the English Language home video (which included Japan). It wasn’t until the Definitive Collection from the newly struck interpositive prints that the real 1981 version of the film came to home video, though not with the original soundtrack so I guess it was technically a new version.

And it was the release of the PT that changed the accepted name of the film from just Star Wars. Every home video release before than, including the SE, had it as Star Wars (with some having A New Hope there as well, but in smaller lettering). But since then the quick version is either 4, Ep4, EpIV, or ANH, never just Star Wars or SW. I’m fine with that. The whole thing is Star Wars.

But I truly consider that first version of the film to be a different movie, like I consider the SE version to be different. If I was going to do a full marathon of the films, I’d do the un-numbered original, followed by the original theatrical versions, followed by the 9 episode saga with the SE versions.

Post
#1330075
Topic
Digital OT owners switched to Disney+ versions without consent?
Time

Vudu is a distributor. Their contracts are with studios. This situation is not covered by Vudu’s terms of service with you, but by their contract with the studio. With digital content, studios have finally achieved with home media what they have always had with theatrical prints. The content belongs to the studio. Not to the provider. Not to you. The only way to be sure you keep a particular version of digital content is to capture and save the stream to a device you control. That they cannot change. But the studio changing content is not up to Vudu or any other streaming service. Your gripe is with Disney and Lucasfilm because they are the ones who did this. Any other studio can do this at any time. The studio can pull a title at any point in time (though I suspect that is covered by their contract with the distributor and not too likely). Case in point is Starz disappearing from Comcast overnight.

You are getting mad at the wrong people if you get mad a Vudu, YouTube, iTunes, or any other streaming service for this. And most of us have been rather excited for this change to propagate through all the systems. I perefer Maklunkey to the oversaturated magenta mess than was the 2003 transfer. Frankly, until they switch it back to the original where Greedo doesn’t shoot at all, I don’t really care what version of that scene it has.

Post
#1329747
Topic
Was Star Wars ever released on home video in widescreen with the Dolby Stereo mix?
Time

kujythrgefdw said:

Sorry if I wasn’t clear enough, but I was talking about the 1977 Dolby Stereo mix. That stinks that all home video releases are either cropped or altered, but whatever. Star Wars is Star Wars.

I feel you. My holy grail is the 77 mono soundtrack and that was never on any home video release. The best quality version comes from a UK television broadcast (with some additional copies on film prints). Fortunately this site has enabled me to track down all the audio and rebuild all the video so I can watch whatever version I want. My next goal is to repeat that in HD.

Post
#1329622
Topic
Was Star Wars ever released on home video in widescreen with the Dolby Stereo mix?
Time

Is your question about the mix or it is if the other home video releases had the matrixed Dolby Surround encoding. The 1977 Stereo (encoded Dolby Surround) was never on home video in widescreen. It has been included in a wide variety of fan releases of the GOUT as well as the Silver Screen Edition and 4K77. All home video releases of the Star Wars trilogy were encoded for Dolby Surround. If you run any of them through a Dolby surround sound decoder, you will get the original 4 channel surround. Be it the original theatrical mix, the 1985 mix, or the 1993 mix for Star Wars, Empire, or Jedi. But if you want the 1977 experience, it was never on home video. Plenty of releases around here if you care to look. 4K77 would be the best quality all around. Plenty of tools to take the GOUT and replace the audio with the 1977 stereo soundtrack.

Post
#1329559
Topic
Digital OT owners switched to Disney+ versions without consent?
Time

For 99% of films this update is going to be rather transparent. There won’t be any content changes (such as Macklunkey), but will generally be a better transfer. In particular, this relates to 4K vs. HD. I believe that their system is downscaling on the fly based on your device and your connection speed so they only need to have one version of the program on their sever to meet everyone’s needs. I can’t wait for them to update TFA on the streaming servers because it will finally be the one with no burned in subtitles. It was the only film released that way. Idiots.