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yotsuya

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Post
#1323423
Topic
<strong>The Rise Of Skywalker</strong> — Official Review and Opinions Thread — * <strong>SPOILERS</strong> *
Time

idir_hh said:

TROS does even worse, they introduce Janna and her squad of defectors and what do they proceed to do? Mindlessly destroy millions of capital ships containing kidnapped/brainwashed men, women and (very likely) children on exogol.

Not too different from destroying two Death Stars. When you have millions trying to kill billions, there isn’t much of a choice.

Post
#1323419
Topic
<strong>The Rise Of Skywalker</strong> — Official Review and Opinions Thread — * <strong>SPOILERS</strong> *
Time

StarkillerAG said:

DominicCobb said:

NeverarGreat said:

Lest we forget, the concept art for TFA was far more interesting than what we got, so it’s really difficult to even speculate on the look of the final result.

The TFA art is illuminating as well, because you have, for instance, let’s say five or so distinct concepts for what kind of planet Jakku might be. So even if the film did completely follow through with a cool piece of art it necessarily will not be able to satisfy every concept.

Yeah, but the concepts we’ve seen so far look pretty faithful to Trevorrow’s script. Remember that the art of TLJ was almost exactly like the theatrical movie, and no matter what your opinions on that movie are you have to agree it looks awesome. And I don’t just like the script because of the cool visuals, I like it because of the characters and the plot too. The plot of TROS is a hot mess, and no amount of editing would be able to fix it in my opinion. So I think this version of IX would be much better than the theatrical version.

My issue is that you are describing it as a “hot mess” with no details. Where did it fail and how? I am truly curious where you think it failed exactly. I could call TFA a hot mess, but I know exactly why and exactly why it bothers me. (and it partly is from things that were leaked that sounded cool in the leak but were badly edited in the final cut).

Post
#1323418
Topic
<strong>The Rise Of Skywalker</strong> — Official Review and Opinions Thread — * <strong>SPOILERS</strong> *
Time

StarkillerAG said:

DominicCobb said:

I’m kinda confused, because the art makes it looks like the film would have indeed been “epic” and possibly “oversized” and “bloated.” TROS seems much more restrained in comparison, for better or worse.

I understand what you mean. I guess the reason I prefer Trevorrow’s version to JJ’s version isn’t because it’s smaller, but because it’s more character focused. Every main character gets a coherent arc. Rey becomes a master of the Force, able to wield both light and dark, and begins training the next generation of Force users. Kylo becomes stronger and stronger in his quest for power, but as a result he becomes a machine, alienated from the living world. Finn uses his experience as a defecting stormtrooper to rally support on Coruscant, turning the tide of the war and destroying the First Order from within. All the character arcs in Trevorrow’s version are so much stronger than in JJ’s version, which sidelines the characters to focus on the big dumb action.

I just get a sense that some of it would have been lost in the time frame of a film. The stormtrooper rebellion is a nice idea, but it seems like it should be a series rather than a film. That is where having a single creative mind directing the entire trilogy arc would have been beneficial. And I don’t like Kylo becoming stronger and unredeemable. That is the worst aspect of the story in my opinion. I do like the story actually commenting on Rey using both sides, but that really isn’t necessary. To me the scale feels smaller and much less epic without Snoke or Palpatine or some big bad. I don’t like Kylo filling that role because frankly he isn’t that level of villain. In the story he can’t live up to Vader and the way the character was created Kylo can never live up to Vader. His inner conflict is a key aspect that this version is missing. That conflict led to his redemption. I really don’t think I would have been as happy if they had kept his script. And I really hate Palpatine having a “Yoda” when Darth Plagueis had previously been established as his master. Just too much off for me to like the story. The art is cool, but the story isn’t. Oh, and Colin has stated that while R2 would have been damaged, he was not dead. Much like ANH. And contrary to how you feel, I think that TROS did concentrate on the characters and gave us a huge payoff for all the character growth from TLJ.

Post
#1323029
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

StarkillerAG said:

NFBisms said:

StarkillerAG said:

It seems like I dislike this movie for the same reason that many people like it: the underlying message of hopelessness.

Luke is actually a depressed hermit instead of a noble hero. Sacrificing yourself for the greater good is actually not a good thing. It doesn’t matter if the Resistance loses and everyone dies, because some Harry Potter cosplayers will rise to defeat whatever fascist government is in charge at that point. For a franchise all about heroism and the light beating the dark, TLJ sure loves to portray heroism as the wrong choice every time. I used to love this movie because of the subversions, but now that I think about it I realize that the subversions actively harm the thematic structure of the saga.

Not really.

Everything you’ve mentioned is more of a TROS criticism, if anything. TLJ says the opposite about pretty much all of your points. Which is interesting.

Really? In my opinion TROS was binary good-evil to a fault. It seems crafted to be the polar opposite of TLJ’s unsympathetic portrayal of heroism. I wish they took the middle ground. You can have the heroes go through a moral crisis without showing heroic sacrifice as a bad thing.

TLJ does not portray heroic sacrifice as a bad thing. Poe’s mistake in the opening is that his effort to take out the dreadnaught cost them dearly. Had he listened and the ships retreated, they could have jumped out of there. That his effort in the end turned out to be in their best interest after discovery of the tracking is not the point. That he caused the deaths of all those rebels was the point. That was not heroic. His actions in clearing away the canons was heroic, but defying Leia was not. His mutiny was not heroic. He had good intentions but he was not in charge. He lacked good leadership skills to judge when he should act and when he should trust others. His arc in the film is to learn that lesson and put it to use. Finn tries to ignore it in an echo of Poe’s actions in the beginning and Rose stops him. A very heroic move on her part. And Rian had some really good references for heroic actions. He watched 12 O’clock High, which if you haven’t seen it, is full of WWII hero actions. Finn has a different journey - he has to learn to fight for a cause rather than just running away. His sacrifice attempt showed that he was almost there, but he needed to be pulled back from his eagerness to keep fighting when the cause was lost and live to fight another day.

Luke has a hard road in the ST. It was all in the setup and many who complain about TLJ forget that TFA set everything up. Luke was training a new class of Jedi when one student turned and destroyed it all. Why he turned is not material to Luke’s journey. Luke sensed it and probed and got scared. Now, anyone who has seen the OT knows that Luke is quick to react, even if that reaction is not always the right one. So he drew and ignited his saber and then remember what the right course was, but Ben woke up, saw him, and Ben completed his fall and became Kylo Ren. We don’t know how many other students there were or their fate, but when you consider the normal human reaction to such a traumatic event, the path laid out for Luke in TFA that lead to self-isolation, was not going to end up in the type of positive role model that we think of as a Jedi Master. Everyone has good days and bad days. For Luke, that day on the Death Star in ROTJ was a very good day. He stood up to Palpatine (in retrospect throwing down his saber may not have been such a wise or masterly move) and his near death brought Anakin back from the dark side. But to say that a person must hold to lifetime high point is silly. In mythology even more so. Myths are about iconic character types. They are larger than life. Better and worse than reality to pass on a message. Luke dealt with self-doubt, day dreaming of adventure, and several flaws that he was able to overcome. He would have been a great master to learn from until things started to go dark for Ben. Then reality and myth combine in the events we see and Luke falls and falls hard. But not to just any state of mind. He returns to the ANH/TESB failings in a way that was beautifully done. He tacitly agrees to teach Rey a few lessons and botches it. Rey leaves with the Jedi texts, hoping they will be a better teacher. It takes Yoda’s ghost to snap Luke out of his funk and make him realize what being a master truly means. It all flows from the setup. Luke Skywalker has vanished. Why? We find out why and it is a very Luke style mistake on the order of him running off to Bespin before his training was complete. Luke wins in ROTJ, not because he throws his saber down, but because his father can’t let another family member die. I would say throwing his saber down was a mistake both times he did it (ROTJ and TLJ) but for different reasons. So I don’t agree that Luke had changed so drastically in ROTJ that he would never again make the mistakes the ST has him make. I think making mistakes his human and it casts Luke as the unwilling mentor in TLJ. I think it builds on his story and that the ending is the opposite of hopeless. The movie ends with hope restored because of Luke and Rey. They live to fight another day and hope spreads out across the galaxy to give them help when that day comes. TLJ setup the finale of TROS. And the ending of TLJ has Luke make the ultimate heroic sacrifice to save lives. So I think Rian portrayed heroic sacrifice as a good thing, but needless loss of life as a bad thing.

Post
#1323022
Topic
<strong>The Rise Of Skywalker</strong> — Official Review and Opinions Thread — * <strong>SPOILERS</strong> *
Time

StarkillerAG said:

Well said Dr Dre. Anecdotal evidence is never gonna get us anywhere in figuring out the majority opinion on this movie. I’m not even sure if there is a majority opinion when it comes to TROS. Some people love it, some people hate it, and some people are completely indifferent towards it. It’s like the audience reception to TLJ on steroids.

I was trying to point out that all these sites with reviews have different ratings and are not consistent. They are all volunteer ratings rather than scientifically objective. There is no way to be sure of anything beyond what the films bring in at the box office. But you can account for bias at times and figure out how much some are off. One of the nice things is that IMDB actually will show you the various votes. Of the nearly 250,000 votes, 30k gave it a 10, 28k gave it a 9, 49k gave it an 8, 51k gave it a 7 and 32k gave it a 6. By far more liked it than hated it. Again not a scientific poll, but it puts the final rating in perspective. It is probably closer than the 86% audience rating on RT, but like I said before, that matches the people I know personally. I personally think RT has lost credibility and is next to useless when dealing with a franchise or any sort of organized protest. They have had a lot of questionable ratings and I don’t think they can make new and old policies both give accurate ratings on films. But the newer numbers seem to have some protection from the slew of false low ratings that several movies got a while ago. But it all creates noise that obscures being able to have a consistent number.

Post
#1322984
Topic
<strong>The Rise Of Skywalker</strong> — Official Review and Opinions Thread — * <strong>SPOILERS</strong> *
Time

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

StarkillerAG said:

yotsuya said:

StarkillerAG said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

A good and balanced analysis by the channel Films&Stuff of why TROS doesn’t work as a film for many (12 min):

The broken structure of Rise of Skywalker

https://youtu.be/HQrNK8NYevI

While it may not work for some, a great many seem to love this film, including myself. I found his argument that because we didn’t see landings that indicated a problem to be silly. And his analysis that Rey redid her journey in one film is off. Star Wars has always had a larger structure than a single film, but each film has always followed the 3 act structure and this one did as well Rey goes on her final journey - her final test if you will.

Maybe you loved it, and that’s fine, but the majority of audiences didn’t, which seems to indicate that there’s something wrong with the pacing and structure of the movie. That’s what the video is about, it isn’t about not having any shots of the heroes landing on a planet, although that is part of the pacing problem.

Sequel movies have a hard job in coming back to revisit the same characters and places with a new story. They were never going to please everyone. I think they set up to please the people who wanted to be entertained and I think they succeeded.

That’s my main problem with the movie. JJ didn’t want to make a meaningful movie, he didn’t even want to make a good movie, he just wanted a big dumb blockbuster that lots of people would enjoy without really thinking about it.

The box office numbers are not final yet, but it has done very well. People have wanted to see it and keep seeing it.

All Star Wars movies are blockbusters. And many think they have good stories, but I can find reviews clear back to 1977 calling them mindless drivel for the masses.

The old-fashioned reviewers who thought the OT was drivel were a minority. Those movies were universally praised by almost everyone else. There’s a reason why Star Wars and Empire consistently rank high on film critics’ top 100 movies lists.

The box office numbers are still disappointing. Keep in mind that most people were expecting this movie to make almost as much as TFA, and the ones who successfully predicted the current box office numbers were labeled as pessimists.

I was predicting around the same as TFA. And it is close to that, though still not quite there.

What alternate universe are you living in? 1 billion dollars isn’t anywhere near TFA’s insane 2 billion dollar gross. TROS has no chance of making as much as TFA or even TLJ.

Sorry, I mistyped. I meant TLJ. And it is getting pretty close, at least as I see it.

The numbers indicate that the critic score is way off on RT. The audience has not been that divided and a great many love it and have called it the best Star Wars since the originals.

Where are you getting this from? The audience reception is almost as divided as TLJ, and even the people who like it know it isn’t even close to being as good as the OT.

The people you talk to and communiate with maybe. The ones I see mostly loved it. I guess it all depends on what circles you are in. And like I said, the people I know personally who have seen it have all (save one) loved it. Lots of die hard Star Wars fans among them.

From other people outside OT. Literally for every negative impression of it I’ve read here, I’ve read another elsewhere that praises it in very high terms. And of the people I personally know who have seen it, the worst review was “I’ll have to think about it”. So I’m seeing the numbers to make that 86% on RT accurate. And the box office numbers agree that it is a popular movie. The best performing movie of a trilogy is always the first. Three for three.

But people (well, other Star Wars fans specifically) are praising this as an amazing movie. I think it is an amazing movie. So I know where they are coming from. I don’t think this trilogy has risen to quite the quality of the OT, but it has gotten closer than Lucas did with the PT. People whose writing skills I trust and who blasted Abrams for Star Trek Into Darkness have admitted this one was well done. So while a great many around here and probably other similar online groups may have found something wrong with it, the numbers do not indicate a majority hated it or thought it was bad. Even the critics, as harsh as they were, leaned a tiny bit in favor of it (the RT critic score never dropped below 50%).

Once again, are you living in an alternate universe? Where is this universal praise you’re talking about? I’ve seen reactions to this movie from all across the internet, and almost all of them are mixed to negative. I haven’t seen a single person (except you) who thinks this movie was anywhere near as good as the OT. Even the people who like it admit it could have been so much better. If you love the movie that’s fine, I’m glad you were satisfied by it. But don’t pretend that everyone else loves it just to get validation for your personal feelings.

I’m not pretending everyone loved it. I’m saying that I see that 86% audience rating on RT as accurate. It matches the personal feedback I’ve gotten.

So, you accept the 86% feedback on RT, which is seen as notoriously unreliable both in a positive, and a negative sense, because it fits with your personal perception, but ignore the lackluster 6.9 rating on imdb, or the fact that its has the lowest cinema score of any of the films (some would argue the cinema score is the most accurate, since it is done by direct polling of the general audience), or the fact that it has the worst RT review score of any of the films (52%). Look this is not the worst movie ever, and certainly not the best, but I would say it is an accurate statement, that its reception is pretty lackluster in general, pretty poor critically, with even the majority of its proponents agreeing it is a very flawed film, and its box office, while still pretty good when compared to the average blockbuster, falls well below expectations, and can thus be classified as dissappointing. So, while I would say it is inaccurate to state a majority hated or disliked this movie, I would say it is equally inaccurate to say a majority liked it as much as you do.

From a statistical perspective, any voluntary rating system is suspect. If you really want a valid rating you’d need to do a randomized national poll. Any rating that asks people to voluntarily rate something is going to be easily skewed by a group who have a reason to give their opinion. I expect the general consensus on this site to be skewed to rating these new movies lower. I did expect to see some negative opinions from those people I know personally (and I know face to face offline) and I have not seen the negative comments from any of them. That is why I see the 86% as accurate because it is matching closer to what I’m hearing from people I know than the 52% critic score.

As for the IMDB score, I don’t now how they arrive at that number so I can’t comment. The only thing I can say is that their highest rated film is The Shawshank Redemption with 9.3 out of 10. The Star Wars films are rated as follows:
Ep 1 - 6.5
Ep 2 - 6.5
Ep 3 - 7.5
Ep 4 - 8.6
Ep 5 - 8.7
Ep 6 - 8.3
Ep 7 - 7.9
Ep 8 - 7.0
Ep 9 - 6.7
Rogue One - 7.8
Solo - 6.9
When you consider that only 4 films have a 9.0 or higher, that is a pretty tough rating system. Also, only 450 films are rated 8.0 to 8.9. That’s out of all films ever which is well over 50,000. That means those 454 films rated 8.0 or higher are less than 1% of all films. 6.7 doesn’t get TROS in the top 1000 (even TLJ isn’t at 7.0), but still, it isn’t a bad rating. But IMDB also offers the Metacritic score.
Ep 1 - 51
Ep 2 - 54
Ep 3 - 68
Ep 4 - 90
Ep 5 - 82
Ep 6 - 58
Ep 7 - 81
Ep 8 - 85
Ep 9 - 54
Rogue One - 65
Solo - 62
How many of us on OT.com would agree that ROTJ rates that low? Or TESB? These are voluntary rating systems that are at the whim of those who decide to give a rating. It is not a scientific assessment and not accurate. People on Metacritic did not like ROTJ and barely rate it higher than ATOC, TROS or TPM. and under Rogue One, Solo, ROTS TFA and TLJ. I’m sure from some opinions I’ve seen around here, that there are some who agree with that, but I don’t. I really don’t think most voluntary ratings have much to offer except to confirm our own feelings. I think the RT Audience score for TROS matches what I’ve heard. I think their audience score for TLJ is way off. I think Metacritic is way off on Eps 1, 5, 6, 9 and Rogue One. I think not having Star Wars and TESB in the top 10 on IMDB is wrong.

Post
#1322850
Topic
The Force Awakens - Home Video Version NOT Theatrical Cut
Time

yaboykevin01 said:

Interesting. Do you know what country that recording is from, or what format the screening was? (2D, 3D, IMAX, etc.) That might give some insight into which versions have which sound effects.

I do not know. Unfortunately before they got to the torrent stage, someone had played with most of them and there is no way of knowing if the video and audio are from the same source. The video has a Spanish crawl, but the audio is in English. So I don’t know. But then from the camera prints, I can see that the actual film release to theaters internationally had the alien subtitles in the proper language where the BR has burned in English for all languages. So we know there were some tweaks with a single source for the BR.

Post
#1322621
Topic
<strong>The Rise Of Skywalker</strong> — Official Review and Opinions Thread — * <strong>SPOILERS</strong> *
Time

StarkillerAG said:

yotsuya said:

StarkillerAG said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

A good and balanced analysis by the channel Films&Stuff of why TROS doesn’t work as a film for many (12 min):

The broken structure of Rise of Skywalker

https://youtu.be/HQrNK8NYevI

While it may not work for some, a great many seem to love this film, including myself. I found his argument that because we didn’t see landings that indicated a problem to be silly. And his analysis that Rey redid her journey in one film is off. Star Wars has always had a larger structure than a single film, but each film has always followed the 3 act structure and this one did as well Rey goes on her final journey - her final test if you will.

Maybe you loved it, and that’s fine, but the majority of audiences didn’t, which seems to indicate that there’s something wrong with the pacing and structure of the movie. That’s what the video is about, it isn’t about not having any shots of the heroes landing on a planet, although that is part of the pacing problem.

Sequel movies have a hard job in coming back to revisit the same characters and places with a new story. They were never going to please everyone. I think they set up to please the people who wanted to be entertained and I think they succeeded.

That’s my main problem with the movie. JJ didn’t want to make a meaningful movie, he didn’t even want to make a good movie, he just wanted a big dumb blockbuster that lots of people would enjoy without really thinking about it.

The box office numbers are not final yet, but it has done very well. People have wanted to see it and keep seeing it.

All Star Wars movies are blockbusters. And many think they have good stories, but I can find reviews clear back to 1977 calling them mindless drivel for the masses.

The old-fashioned reviewers who thought the OT was drivel were a minority. Those movies were universally praised by almost everyone else. There’s a reason why Star Wars and Empire consistently rank high on film critics’ top 100 movies lists.

The box office numbers are still disappointing. Keep in mind that most people were expecting this movie to make almost as much as TFA, and the ones who successfully predicted the current box office numbers were labeled as pessimists.

I was predicting around the same as TFA. And it is close to that, though still not quite there.

What alternate universe are you living in? 1 billion dollars isn’t anywhere near TFA’s insane 2 billion dollar gross. TROS has no chance of making as much as TFA or even TLJ.

Sorry, I mistyped. I meant TLJ. And it is getting pretty close, at least as I see it.

The numbers indicate that the critic score is way off on RT. The audience has not been that divided and a great many love it and have called it the best Star Wars since the originals.

Where are you getting this from? The audience reception is almost as divided as TLJ, and even the people who like it know it isn’t even close to being as good as the OT.

The people you talk to and communiate with maybe. The ones I see mostly loved it. I guess it all depends on what circles you are in. And like I said, the people I know personally who have seen it have all (save one) loved it. Lots of die hard Star Wars fans among them.

From other people outside OT. Literally for every negative impression of it I’ve read here, I’ve read another elsewhere that praises it in very high terms. And of the people I personally know who have seen it, the worst review was “I’ll have to think about it”. So I’m seeing the numbers to make that 86% on RT accurate. And the box office numbers agree that it is a popular movie. The best performing movie of a trilogy is always the first. Three for three.

But people (well, other Star Wars fans specifically) are praising this as an amazing movie. I think it is an amazing movie. So I know where they are coming from. I don’t think this trilogy has risen to quite the quality of the OT, but it has gotten closer than Lucas did with the PT. People whose writing skills I trust and who blasted Abrams for Star Trek Into Darkness have admitted this one was well done. So while a great many around here and probably other similar online groups may have found something wrong with it, the numbers do not indicate a majority hated it or thought it was bad. Even the critics, as harsh as they were, leaned a tiny bit in favor of it (the RT critic score never dropped below 50%).

Once again, are you living in an alternate universe? Where is this universal praise you’re talking about? I’ve seen reactions to this movie from all across the internet, and almost all of them are mixed to negative. I haven’t seen a single person (except you) who thinks this movie was anywhere near as good as the OT. Even the people who like it admit it could have been so much better. If you love the movie that’s fine, I’m glad you were satisfied by it. But don’t pretend that everyone else loves it just to get validation for your personal feelings.

I’m not pretending everyone loved it. I’m saying that I see that 86% audience rating on RT as accurate. It matches the personal feedback I’ve gotten.

Post
#1322563
Topic
The Force Awakens - Home Video Version NOT Theatrical Cut
Time

yaboykevin01 said:

What’s a TC print? I’m not very knowledgeable about this type of thing.

Not something I personally use. I call them camera prints. Torrent sites call them HDCAM or HDTC or soemthing like that. They are bootleg videos made in the theater of the movie. We have audio recordings for the 70 mm of Star Wars in 77 and TESB in 80, and there have been camera prints of every movie since TPM. I like to find good ones to archive what the film looked like in theaters. I don’t have one for ROTS because someone leaked the film, sans end credits, about a week before the film came out in theaters.

Post
#1322561
Topic
<strong>The Rise Of Skywalker</strong> — Official Review and Opinions Thread — * <strong>SPOILERS</strong> *
Time

StarkillerAG said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

A good and balanced analysis by the channel Films&Stuff of why TROS doesn’t work as a film for many (12 min):

The broken structure of Rise of Skywalker

https://youtu.be/HQrNK8NYevI

While it may not work for some, a great many seem to love this film, including myself. I found his argument that because we didn’t see landings that indicated a problem to be silly. And his analysis that Rey redid her journey in one film is off. Star Wars has always had a larger structure than a single film, but each film has always followed the 3 act structure and this one did as well Rey goes on her final journey - her final test if you will.

Maybe you loved it, and that’s fine, but the majority of audiences didn’t, which seems to indicate that there’s something wrong with the pacing and structure of the movie. That’s what the video is about, it isn’t about not having any shots of the heroes landing on a planet, although that is part of the pacing problem.

Sequel movies have a hard job in coming back to revisit the same characters and places with a new story. They were never going to please everyone. I think they set up to please the people who wanted to be entertained and I think they succeeded.

That’s my main problem with the movie. JJ didn’t want to make a meaningful movie, he didn’t even want to make a good movie, he just wanted a big dumb blockbuster that lots of people would enjoy without really thinking about it.

The box office numbers are not final yet, but it has done very well. People have wanted to see it and keep seeing it.

All Star Wars movies are blockbusters. And many think they have good stories, but I can find reviews clear back to 1977 calling them mindless drivel for the masses.

The box office numbers are still disappointing. Keep in mind that most people were expecting this movie to make almost as much as TFA, and the ones who successfully predicted the current box office numbers were labeled as pessimists.

I was predicting around the same as TFA. And it is close to that, though still not quite there. But looking at ROTJ, this is not the first time the final movie of a trilogy did not make as much as the second or first.

The numbers indicate that the critic score is way off on RT. The audience has not been that divided and a great many love it and have called it the best Star Wars since the originals.

Where are you getting this from? The audience reception is almost as divided as TLJ, and even the people who like it know it isn’t even close to being as good as the OT.

From other people outside OT. Literally for every negative impression of it I’ve read here, I’ve read another elsewhere that praises it in very high terms. And of the people I personally know who have seen it, the worst review was “I’ll have to think about it”. So I’m seeing the numbers to make that 86% on RT accurate. And the box office numbers agree that it is a popular movie. The best performing movie of a trilogy is always the first. Three for three.

But people (well, other Star Wars fans specifically) are praising this as an amazing movie. I think it is an amazing movie. So I know where they are coming from. I don’t think this trilogy has risen to quite the quality of the OT, but it has gotten closer than Lucas did with the PT. People whose writing skills I trust and who blasted Abrams for Star Trek Into Darkness have admitted this one was well done. So while a great many around here and probably other similar online groups may have found something wrong with it, the numbers do not indicate a majority hated it or thought it was bad. Even the critics, as harsh as they were, leaned a tiny bit in favor of it (the RT critic score never dropped below 50%).

Post
#1322456
Topic
The Force Awakens - Home Video Version NOT Theatrical Cut
Time

yaboykevin01 said:

none said:

there is something there but it is all base, a low ‘woOoo’.

Yeah, I’m hearing it on the Movies Anywhere digital copy too. It’s very quiet, but it’s there. Not hearing anything from the First Order spy in Maz’s bar, though.

That was on some copies during the theatrical release. I have it on a TC print.

Post
#1322449
Topic
<strong>The Rise Of Skywalker</strong> — Official Review and Opinions Thread — * <strong>SPOILERS</strong> *
Time

DrDre said:

A good and balanced analysis by the channel Films&Stuff of why TROS doesn’t work as a film for many (12 min):

The broken structure of Rise of Skywalker

https://youtu.be/HQrNK8NYevI

While it may not work for some, a great many seem to love this film, including myself. I found his argument that because we didn’t see landings that indicated a problem to be silly. And his analysis that Rey redid her journey in one film is off. Star Wars has always had a larger structure than a single film, but each film has always followed the 3 act structure and this one did as well Rey goes on her final journey - her final test if you will.

Sequel movies have a hard job in coming back to revisit the same characters and places with a new story. They were never going to please everyone. I think they set up to please the people who wanted to be entertained and I think they succeeded. The box office numbers are not final yet, but it has done very well. People have wanted to see it and keep seeing it. The numbers indicate that the critic score is way off on RT. The audience has not been that divided and a great many love it and have called it the best Star Wars since the originals.

Post
#1322398
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

DominicCobb said:

StarkillerAG said:

I know DJ was wrong too, but the movie explicitly tries to make a compromise between DJ’s beliefs and the beliefs of the Resistance, resulting in the whole “save the things you love” scene, which was one of the worst scenes of the movie in my opinion. Throughout the movie, it felt like Rian was trying to make it seem like the heroes and villains should find a compromise, which doesn’t seem like a good lesson for a franchise all about the light always winning.

I’m not sure I understand. “Saving what we love” isn’t about finding a compromise. It’s about caring more for helping people than killing others. It’s the very ethos of the franchise. Selflessness, and all that. Vader takes down the Emperor not because of hatred, but because of love for his son. The Jedi defend what they love, the Sith attack using hatred to fuel them.

I get people not liking the line because it’s on the nose, but the message is very important. I don’t know what it has to do with DJ’s line.

I do think that StarkillerAG is right, that this trilogy is very much pointing to the middle as the right way. And I think that goes hand in hand with saving what we love and selflessness. Extremism is bad. The entire core of Buddhism is based on Buddha trying all the religions of his day and deciding to take the middle way. That is what Balance of the Force is all about. It is exactly what Luke told Rey. Balance lies in the middle path. Not embracing the dark, but not shunning it either. The Jedi had grown to shun the dark. Any hint that you were on the path to the Dark Side and you were in danger. Nevermind that teaching young Jedi how to handle themselves in all situations was the way forward, they shunned all contact with any path to the dark side. And where did it get them? diminished power and a Sith Lord as Chancellor of the Republic. Balance does not mean accepting the dark side, but knowing it and understanding how to avoid it. The Jedi stopped teaching those skills and started having Jedi turn to the Dark Side. The middle is the path to balance the force. Selflessness not hatred. It is all part of the same message. Light and dark in balance. Yin yang. The middle way.

Post
#1322195
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

I don’t care if anyone likes a given film or not. That is a personal opinion that everyone has a right to. But some people give such odd reasons behind their hates and dislikes. Some give reasons that are so easy to dismantle. Such as taking Kylo’s “let the past die” and Luke’s “the Jedi must end” lines at face value without examining how the movie plays out and changes Luke’s opinion to “I will not be the Last Jedi”. Frankly, what a Sith/dark side user says in a Star Wars film is pretty certain to be the opposite of the real message and Luke was in a bad place when he said that. He had some reason and I think the lineage of the Old Republic Jedi needed to end, but Rey takes the texts and can restart the Jedi as they were originally, before the Sith rose (that is an EU bit that has not officially gotten back into the story but…). Yoda adds to it when he says something to the effect that students grow beyond their masters. So taking anything that Kylo or curmudgeon Luke says as the message of the film is just wrong. If you base hating the film on that then you have based it on a false fact.

Post
#1321911
Topic
<strong>The Rise Of Skywalker</strong> — Official Review and Opinions Thread — * <strong>SPOILERS</strong> *
Time

Shopping Maul said:

yotsuya said:

Shopping Maul said:

DuracellEnergizer said:

A Mary Sue doesn’t cease to be a Mary Sue just 'cause she has ubermensch genes.

Yeah, but it helps. I guess it comes down to what one wishes to preserve most in the canon. Like I said, I hate the genetic thing and have hated it since the ridiculous Leia retcon in ROTJ. But I dislike the ‘no training required’ thing of the ST even more, because it takes away from Luke’s arc and struggles. I’d rather roll with a version of Force genetics (I find a Sith version of this at least mysterious enough to carry some weight) to justify Rey’s power levels than go with RJ’s random ‘X-Men Force powers’ thing.

Luke’s struggles are due to lack of faith and lack of concentration. Rey had heard of the Heroes of the OT. Rey knows what a Jedi can do from those stories. Then comes face to face with it in a way Luke never did (he didn’t see Vader do anything in canon until TESB during their duel and I don’t think he saw Ben do anything either). Ben gave him one lesson on the falcon and then he is able to make the shot that takes out the death star and then later is able to levitate his lightsaber before his second lesson with Yoda. Luke had doubts. Rey didn’t. Rey had belonging and abandonment issues, Luke never seemed to. He wanted to know more about his father, but he knew who he was and that was fine. Rey has plenty of struggles and failures in the films. More than Luke actually. No one powerful in the Force seems to have any problem using it once they see it used and Rey saw it used by Kylo many time. In fact, you could say that he activated the Dyad by trying to read her mind and that he basically taught her everything he knew and she just had to concentrate to draw on it. Snoke implied that he linked them, but I don’t think he realized what he was dealing with. They stayed linked after he died. So Mary Sue? Nope. She has too many flaws and failures to be one. Sure she picks up the force quickly, but that is not the only part of her character and she rarely does it right the first time.

I’m not really pushing the Mary Sue barrow so much as just dealing with my own particular head-canon regarding the Force. Midichlorians and Chosen Ones (and even the 1983 ‘Leia’s the other by blood alone’ thing) sit really uneasily with me. I’m stuck in 1980 on this point - the Force is super-hard to master. Yes, Luke’s doubts and impatience impede his progress, but I don’t see this as an absolute. For example I don’t think Luke, having witnessed Yoda’s X-Wing feat, would have immediately gone “oh, I see” and then duplicated it just because he’d seen it done. I think Yoda’s lesson was more layered than that.

So when Rey stumbles into mastery so easily (from my POV anyway) it messes with my view of the Force and how I see Luke’s journey. I think a ‘school of hard knocks’ approach to the Force is fine, but Rey’s version crosses the line for me. I don’t think JJ even cared, I think he was just like “hey, let’s have her do cool stuff and we’ll explain it later”.

Rey Palpatine is a good explanation for me. While I hate ‘Force-genetics’ in general, her being the descendant/creation of the Palpatine depicted in TROS (basically an evil sorcerer) makes it fit. It kind of justifies the notion of someone being born into power rather than having to master it - plus we’re not talking about the same kind of power Luke was struggling to attain. This is (to me anyway) a whole new twisted side of the Force that hasn’t been presented yet. So it works for me at that level and also gives Rey a depth of character I felt was previously lacking - the idea of someone brimming with a kind of ‘dark magic’ that she can barely control let alone comprehend. It’s almost a ‘reverse-Luke’ in a way and I find it interesting.

Hm… I like that perspective. Very interesting. Adds more layers to her character looking at it like that.

Post
#1321909
Topic
<strong>The Rise Of Skywalker</strong> — Official Review and Opinions Thread — * <strong>SPOILERS</strong> *
Time

StarkillerAG said:

yotsuya said:

StarkillerAG said:

yotsuya said:

StarkillerAG said:

yotsuya said:

StarkillerAG said:

yotsuya said:

Shopping Maul said:

DuracellEnergizer said:

A Mary Sue doesn’t cease to be a Mary Sue just 'cause she has ubermensch genes.

Yeah, but it helps. I guess it comes down to what one wishes to preserve most in the canon. Like I said, I hate the genetic thing and have hated it since the ridiculous Leia retcon in ROTJ. But I dislike the ‘no training required’ thing of the ST even more, because it takes away from Luke’s arc and struggles. I’d rather roll with a version of Force genetics (I find a Sith version of this at least mysterious enough to carry some weight) to justify Rey’s power levels than go with RJ’s random ‘X-Men Force powers’ thing.

Luke’s struggles are due to lack of faith and lack of concentration. Rey had heard of the Heroes of the OT. Rey knows what a Jedi can do from those stories. Then comes face to face with it in a way Luke never did (he didn’t see Vader do anything in canon until TESB during their duel and I don’t think he saw Ben do anything either). Ben gave him one lesson on the falcon and then he is able to make the shot that takes out the death star and then later is able to levitate his lightsaber before his second lesson with Yoda. Luke had doubts. Rey didn’t. Rey had belonging and abandonment issues, Luke never seemed to. He wanted to know more about his father, but he knew who he was and that was fine. Rey has plenty of struggles and failures in the films. More than Luke actually. No one powerful in the Force seems to have any problem using it once they see it used and Rey saw it used by Kylo many time. In fact, you could say that he activated the Dyad by trying to read her mind and that he basically taught her everything he knew and she just had to concentrate to draw on it. Snoke implied that he linked them, but I don’t think he realized what he was dealing with. They stayed linked after he died. So Mary Sue? Nope. She has too many flaws and failures to be one. Sure she picks up the force quickly, but that is not the only part of her character and she rarely does it right the first time.

Just because a character has flaws and failures doesn’t mean they’re not a Mary Sue. The original Mary Sue died at the end. Mary Sues usually have two qualities:

-An insane level of power and skill, without much struggle.
-The ability to make everyone they meet instantly like them.

Rey has both qualities. She flies and repairs the Falcon better than Han, despite having never flown it before. As soon as Finn meets her, he loves her more than anything in the galaxy. She uses a Jedi mind-trick successfully after seeing Kylo use it once. As soon as Kylo meets her, he wants her to become his empress. She beats Kylo in a lightsaber duel, despite having never used a weapon of that type before. As soon as Han meets her, he wants her to become his copilot. When she taps into the Force for the first time, she nearly destroys Luke’s temple. She lifts a huge pile of rocks on Crait, despite having never used the Force to lift objects before. She heals people using the Force, an ability which no Jedi has used before, and she doesn’t seem any weaker because of it. Zorri agrees to help the Resistance purely because she likes Rey. The list goes on, but you get the idea. In my opinion, Rey fits the definition of a Mary Sue almost exactly.

Then so does Luke.

People like you keep saying, “If Rey is a Mary Sue, than so is Luke!” But Luke doesn’t have any of the qualities that make Rey a Mary Sue. He struggled constantly to gain the level of power he showed in ROTJ, and the people around him didn’t like him instantly - Leia thought he was a complete idiot, Han thought he was a dumb kid who didn’t understand anything, and Yoda thought he was too hopeful and excited to become a Jedi. In order for Luke to gain the surrogate family he had in ROTJ, he needed character development - a term which the creators of the sequel trilogy don’t seem to understand.

Really? In one less he is able to deflect the remote’s shots.

Like Han said, “Good against remotes is easy. Good against the living, that’s something else.” Training with a remote doesn’t prepare you for fighting a living enemy.

Without any lessons (only Ben’s ghost voice saying to use the force) he is able to target the shaft and destroy the death star.

That wasn’t Luke making that shot. He closed his eyes and trusted his instincts, allowing the Force to take over. All the incredible things Rey does, she does by herself.

Without any lessons he can lift his light saber.
Lifting a lightsaber is easy. Anyone can do it, even Han. But Luke never had to use his lightsaber for complicated things until his duel with Vader, three years after he first used it. Rey, on the other hand, beats Kylo in a lightsaber duel, despite having never used a weapon of that type before. There’s a difference between lifting a lightsaber, and using it to defeat a Force user who was trained by both Luke Skywalker and Emperor Palpatine.
And it isn’t like Rey does everything successfully the first time. She has to try several times to get James Bond Stormtrooper to do her bidding.

She tries once. The second time, she succeeds. Compare that to Luke, who only knew how to use a mind trick in ROTJ, when he was already a skilled Jedi master.

She does fail and when you actually and honestly compare how she and Luke do things, they are very similar.

Which shouldn’t be taken as a compliment. Copying a much better protagonist does not make your protagonist good.

She just doesn’t have his doubts that made him fail with the X-wing.

Which also shouldn’t be taken as a compliment. Characters who have no doubts tend not to be very interesting.

She has family issues he always seemed okay with.

That’s just a plot point, it’s not a weakness. Rey doesn’t seem to be shaken by either one of her family reveals, unlike Luke who was shocked to his core by Vader’s revelation.

We never get to see Anakin train so we have no idea how he did.

He trained for ten years straight, so we can assume he did well.

And in case you missed it, Rey had a bit of a failure at the start of TROS where she wasn’t deflecting the remotes shots like she should.

What are you talking about? Rey deflected all those lasers completely accurately.

LOL… When she first encountered the remote she does (wearing a helmet with a blast shield). Then she cuts down the red strip and after that she can’t deflect a single laser. It hits her like 5 times. She finally smashes it against a tree with a stick. Watch the movie again.

How about you watch the movie again? Rey deflected the lasers completely accurately until she got distracted by Kylo talking to Vader’s helmet and started chopping down trees like a maniac for no reason.

She has a tough third film where Luke is pretty composed the whole way through and only has issues when Vader threatens Leia.

Luke isn’t composed, he’s arrogant. That’s the main lesson Luke learns in ROTJ, true Jedi aren’t smug about their abilities. Compare that to Rey, who has no doubts about her abilities the entire trilogy, and she never learns a lesson from it.

Have you seen TROS. This sounds like you haven’t.

I have seen TROS. Rey has no doubts about her abilities, you said so yourself. And she never learns a lesson from it during TROS. She shows up to Palpatine’s lair, is all like “I’m gonna kill you lol”, and then kills Palpatine with double saber power. Unlike ROTJ which teaches that violence isn’t always the solution, TROS has Rey kill Palpatine with double violence, and it’s portrayed as a heroic moment.

Wrong. She doesn’t kill him. He is trying to kill her and she blocks it. Using both sabers she is able to push back and when she gets close enough the feedback from his own lightning destroys him. The entire point was that she didn’t kill him with violence. She didn’t actually kill him at all. He did it to himself. If she had tried to kill him, he would have possessed her and Evil Rey would be born. It really pays to pay attention to what is going on.

The evidence doesn’t back up Rey having it easier than Luke or being more powerful than Luke. They just have different journeys.

She doesn’t have a different journey, she has a very similar journey, which is a problem in itself. But while Luke made mistakes and learned lessons on his path to becoming a Jedi, Rey started out powerful and stayed powerful, with no opportunities for mistakes or character growth.

No opportunities for mistakes? Well, please watch TROS again and then tell me that.

She never makes mistakes, at least not voluntarily. She’s always morally right about everything, often at the expense of everyone else.

And also, I did watch TROS again. It’s still bad.

She makes plenty of mistakes. They are there in each of the movies. She does not perform perfectly any more than Luke did. That is the role of the hero. They have to succeed more often than they fail. Rey fails big when she unleashed the force lightning. She is lucky she was trying to stop the wrong ship.

Post
#1321794
Topic
The Phantom Menace
Time

DominicCobb said:

StarkillerAG said:

DominicCobb said:

As someone who grew up with the prequels and can still watch and enjoy them any day of the week, I get why so many young people praise and defend them. If they were your introduction to the franchise, it makes sense that you’d have a nostalgic attachment. I do too, but I also can’t deny the many, many aspects of the films that simply do not work. They all pretty much suck to varying degrees. I wish I could say they didn’t, but they do. Like I said, I still enjoy them, but I can acknowledge that they’re simply not very good movies. And that’s okay.

I feel the same way. The prequels were my introduction to the franchise, and I feel like a lot of the good parts of those movies are being overlooked, but I also agree that they have a lot of bad parts.

I think the tide has officially turned. About ten years ago, you couldn’t find nearly anyone who’d admit to anything good at all about the prequels. Now it’s the opposite, where it seems like many people refuse to accept their poor qualities.

The kids who grew up on the PT are now grown up and expressing their opinion. I alwasys liked TPM and ROTS, even if they have flaws. I love the grandeur of the Old Republic the reveal. They also reveal its problems.

Post
#1321790
Topic
<strong>The Rise Of Skywalker</strong> — Official Review and Opinions Thread — * <strong>SPOILERS</strong> *
Time

StarkillerAG said:

yotsuya said:

StarkillerAG said:

yotsuya said:

StarkillerAG said:

yotsuya said:

Shopping Maul said:

DuracellEnergizer said:

A Mary Sue doesn’t cease to be a Mary Sue just 'cause she has ubermensch genes.

Yeah, but it helps. I guess it comes down to what one wishes to preserve most in the canon. Like I said, I hate the genetic thing and have hated it since the ridiculous Leia retcon in ROTJ. But I dislike the ‘no training required’ thing of the ST even more, because it takes away from Luke’s arc and struggles. I’d rather roll with a version of Force genetics (I find a Sith version of this at least mysterious enough to carry some weight) to justify Rey’s power levels than go with RJ’s random ‘X-Men Force powers’ thing.

Luke’s struggles are due to lack of faith and lack of concentration. Rey had heard of the Heroes of the OT. Rey knows what a Jedi can do from those stories. Then comes face to face with it in a way Luke never did (he didn’t see Vader do anything in canon until TESB during their duel and I don’t think he saw Ben do anything either). Ben gave him one lesson on the falcon and then he is able to make the shot that takes out the death star and then later is able to levitate his lightsaber before his second lesson with Yoda. Luke had doubts. Rey didn’t. Rey had belonging and abandonment issues, Luke never seemed to. He wanted to know more about his father, but he knew who he was and that was fine. Rey has plenty of struggles and failures in the films. More than Luke actually. No one powerful in the Force seems to have any problem using it once they see it used and Rey saw it used by Kylo many time. In fact, you could say that he activated the Dyad by trying to read her mind and that he basically taught her everything he knew and she just had to concentrate to draw on it. Snoke implied that he linked them, but I don’t think he realized what he was dealing with. They stayed linked after he died. So Mary Sue? Nope. She has too many flaws and failures to be one. Sure she picks up the force quickly, but that is not the only part of her character and she rarely does it right the first time.

Just because a character has flaws and failures doesn’t mean they’re not a Mary Sue. The original Mary Sue died at the end. Mary Sues usually have two qualities:

-An insane level of power and skill, without much struggle.
-The ability to make everyone they meet instantly like them.

Rey has both qualities. She flies and repairs the Falcon better than Han, despite having never flown it before. As soon as Finn meets her, he loves her more than anything in the galaxy. She uses a Jedi mind-trick successfully after seeing Kylo use it once. As soon as Kylo meets her, he wants her to become his empress. She beats Kylo in a lightsaber duel, despite having never used a weapon of that type before. As soon as Han meets her, he wants her to become his copilot. When she taps into the Force for the first time, she nearly destroys Luke’s temple. She lifts a huge pile of rocks on Crait, despite having never used the Force to lift objects before. She heals people using the Force, an ability which no Jedi has used before, and she doesn’t seem any weaker because of it. Zorri agrees to help the Resistance purely because she likes Rey. The list goes on, but you get the idea. In my opinion, Rey fits the definition of a Mary Sue almost exactly.

Then so does Luke.

People like you keep saying, “If Rey is a Mary Sue, than so is Luke!” But Luke doesn’t have any of the qualities that make Rey a Mary Sue. He struggled constantly to gain the level of power he showed in ROTJ, and the people around him didn’t like him instantly - Leia thought he was a complete idiot, Han thought he was a dumb kid who didn’t understand anything, and Yoda thought he was too hopeful and excited to become a Jedi. In order for Luke to gain the surrogate family he had in ROTJ, he needed character development - a term which the creators of the sequel trilogy don’t seem to understand.

Really? In one less he is able to deflect the remote’s shots.

Like Han said, “Good against remotes is easy. Good against the living, that’s something else.” Training with a remote doesn’t prepare you for fighting a living enemy.

Without any lessons (only Ben’s ghost voice saying to use the force) he is able to target the shaft and destroy the death star.

That wasn’t Luke making that shot. He closed his eyes and trusted his instincts, allowing the Force to take over. All the incredible things Rey does, she does by herself.

Without any lessons he can lift his light saber.
Lifting a lightsaber is easy. Anyone can do it, even Han. But Luke never had to use his lightsaber for complicated things until his duel with Vader, three years after he first used it. Rey, on the other hand, beats Kylo in a lightsaber duel, despite having never used a weapon of that type before. There’s a difference between lifting a lightsaber, and using it to defeat a Force user who was trained by both Luke Skywalker and Emperor Palpatine.
And it isn’t like Rey does everything successfully the first time. She has to try several times to get James Bond Stormtrooper to do her bidding.

She tries once. The second time, she succeeds. Compare that to Luke, who only knew how to use a mind trick in ROTJ, when he was already a skilled Jedi master.

She does fail and when you actually and honestly compare how she and Luke do things, they are very similar.

Which shouldn’t be taken as a compliment. Copying a much better protagonist does not make your protagonist good.

She just doesn’t have his doubts that made him fail with the X-wing.

Which also shouldn’t be taken as a compliment. Characters who have no doubts tend not to be very interesting.

She has family issues he always seemed okay with.

That’s just a plot point, it’s not a weakness. Rey doesn’t seem to be shaken by either one of her family reveals, unlike Luke who was shocked to his core by Vader’s revelation.

We never get to see Anakin train so we have no idea how he did.

He trained for ten years straight, so we can assume he did well.

And in case you missed it, Rey had a bit of a failure at the start of TROS where she wasn’t deflecting the remotes shots like she should.

What are you talking about? Rey deflected all those lasers completely accurately.

LOL… When she first encountered the remote she does (wearing a helmet with a blast shield). Then she cuts down the red strip and after that she can’t deflect a single laser. It hits her like 5 times. She finally smashes it against a tree with a stick. Watch the movie again.

She has a tough third film where Luke is pretty composed the whole way through and only has issues when Vader threatens Leia.

Luke isn’t composed, he’s arrogant. That’s the main lesson Luke learns in ROTJ, true Jedi aren’t smug about their abilities. Compare that to Rey, who has no doubts about her abilities the entire trilogy, and she never learns a lesson from it.

Have you seen TROS. This sounds like you haven’t.

The evidence doesn’t back up Rey having it easier than Luke or being more powerful than Luke. They just have different journeys.

She doesn’t have a different journey, she has a very similar journey, which is a problem in itself. But while Luke made mistakes and learned lessons on his path to becoming a Jedi, Rey started out powerful and stayed powerful, with no opportunities for mistakes or character growth.

No opportunities for mistakes? Well, please watch TROS again and then tell me that.

Post
#1321739
Topic
Star Wars The Lost Cut: Everything We Know About It
Time

Here is a truth about movie making. They end up with a ton of stuff that is never used and they often miss things they need and either have to do pickup shots or find something that they weren’t going to use that will fit it. In ANH, there are many shots of R2 from the Death Star control room (where he found out Princess Leia was being held prisoner) that were used elsewhere, particularly in the Falcon.

Ronster is coming from the angle that the cut that Ben Burtt was using for the main audio track, got edited in a few places AFTER some of the sound was laid down and is trying to uncover that cut. I can see the point to that. Star Wars Deleted Magic had several places in the film where they found that footage had been moved around and reordered things. (Ronster, if you haven’t seen that you must check it out)

And it is certain that quite a number of shots from ANH (used or unused) were reused for ROTJ inside the Death Star. Cooridor shots and the weapon firing in particular. But that also isn’t unusual.

We do know from Mark Hamill that Lucas was going for “faster and more intense” and that extended into the edit. My guess is that he was cutting stuff up to the end. My guess is that just reordering what we have will not achieve any of the previous cuts because what was cut is missing and not just moved around. One cut we know of was one of the imperial officers (sorry, I have never memorised all their names) in a longer version of his shot using the word Sith. Deleted Magic reused some footage to recreate what they saw as the original trench run. You would have to creatively reused shots (maybe in reverse) and audio and probably pull music from the full recordings to simulate what the longer cut might have looked like, but the stuff you need to recreate it authentically is not there. It was cut.

That original rough cut was in B&W and was Lucas’s worst nightmare using transnational editing techniques that Lucas wanted to abandon.

We know a lot about what he wanted from the scripts and storyboards, and we can glean more from the music recordings and how the final edit came out (obvious edits). The following films were not done quite so rushed and the last minute edits were better done. Remember how fast they worked to finish Star Wars in 77. 3 FX shots and the final end credits were not done in May 77 and were included in the wide release and international releases later.

Post
#1321637
Topic
<strong>The Rise Of Skywalker</strong> — Official Review and Opinions Thread — * <strong>SPOILERS</strong> *
Time

StarkillerAG said:

yotsuya said:

StarkillerAG said:

yotsuya said:

Shopping Maul said:

DuracellEnergizer said:

A Mary Sue doesn’t cease to be a Mary Sue just 'cause she has ubermensch genes.

Yeah, but it helps. I guess it comes down to what one wishes to preserve most in the canon. Like I said, I hate the genetic thing and have hated it since the ridiculous Leia retcon in ROTJ. But I dislike the ‘no training required’ thing of the ST even more, because it takes away from Luke’s arc and struggles. I’d rather roll with a version of Force genetics (I find a Sith version of this at least mysterious enough to carry some weight) to justify Rey’s power levels than go with RJ’s random ‘X-Men Force powers’ thing.

Luke’s struggles are due to lack of faith and lack of concentration. Rey had heard of the Heroes of the OT. Rey knows what a Jedi can do from those stories. Then comes face to face with it in a way Luke never did (he didn’t see Vader do anything in canon until TESB during their duel and I don’t think he saw Ben do anything either). Ben gave him one lesson on the falcon and then he is able to make the shot that takes out the death star and then later is able to levitate his lightsaber before his second lesson with Yoda. Luke had doubts. Rey didn’t. Rey had belonging and abandonment issues, Luke never seemed to. He wanted to know more about his father, but he knew who he was and that was fine. Rey has plenty of struggles and failures in the films. More than Luke actually. No one powerful in the Force seems to have any problem using it once they see it used and Rey saw it used by Kylo many time. In fact, you could say that he activated the Dyad by trying to read her mind and that he basically taught her everything he knew and she just had to concentrate to draw on it. Snoke implied that he linked them, but I don’t think he realized what he was dealing with. They stayed linked after he died. So Mary Sue? Nope. She has too many flaws and failures to be one. Sure she picks up the force quickly, but that is not the only part of her character and she rarely does it right the first time.

Just because a character has flaws and failures doesn’t mean they’re not a Mary Sue. The original Mary Sue died at the end. Mary Sues usually have two qualities:

-An insane level of power and skill, without much struggle.
-The ability to make everyone they meet instantly like them.

Rey has both qualities. She flies and repairs the Falcon better than Han, despite having never flown it before. As soon as Finn meets her, he loves her more than anything in the galaxy. She uses a Jedi mind-trick successfully after seeing Kylo use it once. As soon as Kylo meets her, he wants her to become his empress. She beats Kylo in a lightsaber duel, despite having never used a weapon of that type before. As soon as Han meets her, he wants her to become his copilot. When she taps into the Force for the first time, she nearly destroys Luke’s temple. She lifts a huge pile of rocks on Crait, despite having never used the Force to lift objects before. She heals people using the Force, an ability which no Jedi has used before, and she doesn’t seem any weaker because of it. Zorri agrees to help the Resistance purely because she likes Rey. The list goes on, but you get the idea. In my opinion, Rey fits the definition of a Mary Sue almost exactly.

Then so does Luke.

People like you keep saying, “If Rey is a Mary Sue, than so is Luke!” But Luke doesn’t have any of the qualities that make Rey a Mary Sue. He struggled constantly to gain the level of power he showed in ROTJ, and the people around him didn’t like him instantly - Leia thought he was a complete idiot, Han thought he was a dumb kid who didn’t understand anything, and Yoda thought he was too hopeful and excited to become a Jedi. In order for Luke to gain the surrogate family he had in ROTJ, he needed character development - a term which the creators of the sequel trilogy don’t seem to understand.

Really? In one less he is able to deflect the remote’s shots. Without any lessons (only Ben’s ghost voice saying to use the force) he is able to target the shaft and destroy the death star. Without any lessons he can lift his light saber. And it isn’t like Rey does everything successfully the first time. She has to try several times to get James Bond Stormtrooper to do her bidding. She does fail and when you actually and honestly compare how she and Luke do things, they are very similar. She just doesn’t have his doubts that made him fail with the X-wing. She has family issues he always seemed okay with. We never get to see Anakin train so we have no idea how he did. We do see Erza in Rebels and he does about the same as Luke and Rey. And in case you missed it, Rey had a bit of a failure at the start of TROS where she wasn’t deflecting the remotes shots like she should. She has a tough third film where Luke is pretty composed the whole way through and only has issues when Vader threatens Leia. The evidence doesn’t back up Rey having it easier than Luke or being more powerful than Luke. They just have different journeys.

Post
#1321629
Topic
<strong>The Rise Of Skywalker</strong> — Official Review and Opinions Thread — * <strong>SPOILERS</strong> *
Time

StarkillerAG said:

yotsuya said:

Shopping Maul said:

DuracellEnergizer said:

A Mary Sue doesn’t cease to be a Mary Sue just 'cause she has ubermensch genes.

Yeah, but it helps. I guess it comes down to what one wishes to preserve most in the canon. Like I said, I hate the genetic thing and have hated it since the ridiculous Leia retcon in ROTJ. But I dislike the ‘no training required’ thing of the ST even more, because it takes away from Luke’s arc and struggles. I’d rather roll with a version of Force genetics (I find a Sith version of this at least mysterious enough to carry some weight) to justify Rey’s power levels than go with RJ’s random ‘X-Men Force powers’ thing.

Luke’s struggles are due to lack of faith and lack of concentration. Rey had heard of the Heroes of the OT. Rey knows what a Jedi can do from those stories. Then comes face to face with it in a way Luke never did (he didn’t see Vader do anything in canon until TESB during their duel and I don’t think he saw Ben do anything either). Ben gave him one lesson on the falcon and then he is able to make the shot that takes out the death star and then later is able to levitate his lightsaber before his second lesson with Yoda. Luke had doubts. Rey didn’t. Rey had belonging and abandonment issues, Luke never seemed to. He wanted to know more about his father, but he knew who he was and that was fine. Rey has plenty of struggles and failures in the films. More than Luke actually. No one powerful in the Force seems to have any problem using it once they see it used and Rey saw it used by Kylo many time. In fact, you could say that he activated the Dyad by trying to read her mind and that he basically taught her everything he knew and she just had to concentrate to draw on it. Snoke implied that he linked them, but I don’t think he realized what he was dealing with. They stayed linked after he died. So Mary Sue? Nope. She has too many flaws and failures to be one. Sure she picks up the force quickly, but that is not the only part of her character and she rarely does it right the first time.

Just because a character has flaws and failures doesn’t mean they’re not a Mary Sue. The original Mary Sue died at the end. Mary Sues usually have two qualities:

-An insane level of power and skill, without much struggle.
-The ability to make everyone they meet instantly like them.

Rey has both qualities. She flies and repairs the Falcon better than Han, despite having never flown it before. As soon as Finn meets her, he loves her more than anything in the galaxy. She uses a Jedi mind-trick successfully after seeing Kylo use it once. As soon as Kylo meets her, he wants her to become his empress. She beats Kylo in a lightsaber duel, despite having never used a weapon of that type before. As soon as Han meets her, he wants her to become his copilot. When she taps into the Force for the first time, she nearly destroys Luke’s temple. She lifts a huge pile of rocks on Crait, despite having never used the Force to lift objects before. She heals people using the Force, an ability which no Jedi has used before, and she doesn’t seem any weaker because of it. Zorri agrees to help the Resistance purely because she likes Rey. The list goes on, but you get the idea. In my opinion, Rey fits the definition of a Mary Sue almost exactly.

Then so does Luke. Don’t confuse mythic hero and Mary Sue. A Mary Sue is a fan insert into a story. I’d like to know what fan Lucas and Abrams had in mind as the character was created and developed. It is a trick that most writers insert themselves into their stories in some way. Good writers do it in a way that you don’t see. Fan Fiction is often some of the first work of budding writers and is where you find the Mary Sue character - the all too obvious writer-as-character who does things too well. In the OT, Han Solo is the Lucas figure. I couldn’t say what Abrams was thinking. But it is pretty hard to have an actual Mary Sue in a mains stream production. Usually you get a point of view character or something to better relate.

And you missed about the rocks on Crait. She lifted the Anakin/Luke lightsaber in TFA. And as Yoda said, size matters not, so if you can lift a lightsaber, you can lift an X-Wing or a pile of rocks. As for the healing, as we see it drain Kylo to death, I think it is safe to say it from the most secret of Jedi texts that they did not share with just anyone. The inexperienced could easily spend themself healing and die. So not having seen it before is not really surprising. And as I said, it all started when Kylo tried to read her mind. Everything she does after that we can blame on that (for lack of a better word) mind-meld. Kylo has inadvertently been teaching her since they met. A true Mary Sue would know things only a fan would know and would inappropriately save the day… every time. Rey doesn’t do that. People who call Rey a Mary Sue don’t really know what a Mary Sue is. It is not just an overpowerd and successful character. Marvel would be full of those. We have three unlikely heroes in Star Wars, a slave boy, a farm boy, and a junk girl. Which one is the most over powered? Anakin at 9 is a pod racer, pilot, robot builder, and mechanic and saves the day with a lucky shot. He is far closer to a Mary Sue (though he isn’t one) than Rey ever was.

Post
#1321608
Topic
<strong>The Rise Of Skywalker</strong> — Official Review and Opinions Thread — * <strong>SPOILERS</strong> *
Time

Shopping Maul said:

DuracellEnergizer said:

A Mary Sue doesn’t cease to be a Mary Sue just 'cause she has ubermensch genes.

Yeah, but it helps. I guess it comes down to what one wishes to preserve most in the canon. Like I said, I hate the genetic thing and have hated it since the ridiculous Leia retcon in ROTJ. But I dislike the ‘no training required’ thing of the ST even more, because it takes away from Luke’s arc and struggles. I’d rather roll with a version of Force genetics (I find a Sith version of this at least mysterious enough to carry some weight) to justify Rey’s power levels than go with RJ’s random ‘X-Men Force powers’ thing.

Luke’s struggles are due to lack of faith and lack of concentration. Rey had heard of the Heroes of the OT. Rey knows what a Jedi can do from those stories. Then comes face to face with it in a way Luke never did (he didn’t see Vader do anything in canon until TESB during their duel and I don’t think he saw Ben do anything either). Ben gave him one lesson on the falcon and then he is able to make the shot that takes out the death star and then later is able to levitate his lightsaber before his second lesson with Yoda. Luke had doubts. Rey didn’t. Rey had belonging and abandonment issues, Luke never seemed to. He wanted to know more about his father, but he knew who he was and that was fine. Rey has plenty of struggles and failures in the films. More than Luke actually. No one powerful in the Force seems to have any problem using it once they see it used and Rey saw it used by Kylo many time. In fact, you could say that he activated the Dyad by trying to read her mind and that he basically taught her everything he knew and she just had to concentrate to draw on it. Snoke implied that he linked them, but I don’t think he realized what he was dealing with. They stayed linked after he died. So Mary Sue? Nope. She has too many flaws and failures to be one. Sure she picks up the force quickly, but that is not the only part of her character and she rarely does it right the first time.