yotsuya

DrDre said:

Both Kenobi and the ST suffer from the same basic issue. There is no story to tell, and both end in the same place where it started. Ultimately some of us are left wondering what was added to the overall story set out in the first six films. Star Wars has nothing new to say. It’s just regurgitating past stories while throwing in insufferable amounts of fan service.

I respect your opinion, but totally disagree. Sure, the saga can exist without this series, but this series addresses what Kenobi might have had to deal with after ROTS and before he could be the character he was in ANH. It brings the inquisitors into the live action canon (remember, Vader only helped the empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi - the Inquisitors were the ones doing most of the work). As for fan service, it is only insufferable if you don’t appreciate it. Those of us who appreciate it love every moment of it.

ADR14NAT1ON said:

Luke was always quick to action and even in ROTJ, took a moment to do the right thing. So I don’t see any problem with the way he told it to Rey the second time. It fits his personality.

Here’s the thing, even if Luke messed up like that, I can’t fathom that he would not immediately do everything in his power to make it right. His most important distinction as a character was that he is the ONLY ONE that didn’t give up on Anakin. Here he just gives up and goes into exile. And I don’t care if in a novel or whatever it says that he went on a journey that made him realize whatever, the movie starts with Luke already altered and no glimpse of how he got that way is ever shown. Something that important should’ve been in the movie.

And his first lesson with Kenobi was to act on instinct.

That’s precisely it, that was at the beginning of his arc. Luke evolved throughout the OT movies, and then he just forgets ???

And then when Kylo Ren destroys the new school and kills all the students […] Luke is crushed.

Vader directly or indirectly committed genocide of hundreds of thousands of Jedi. His empire killed, tortured and oppressed trillions. Kylo is not even close to how bad Vader was, come on. And Luke still believed Anakin could come back, but not Ben ??

He is a side character there to aid the success of the main characters.

Sure, but he is a legacy character who deserves some continuity to his story. Let’s look at some other characters in Legacy Sequels:

Imagine if in BR 2049 we found Deckard hating and hunting replicants again, going against how his arc ended in the original BR.

Imagine if Maverick had given up on flying in the new Top Gun: Maverick because he lost a wingman even though we had already seen him overcome a similar tragedy in the original.

Now let’s look at Creed. Similarly to Luke, Rocky doesn’t box anymore. But his character is still a fighter at heart, he fights through cancer while training and believing in Creed.

I don’t have a problem if a character changed in the span of years, but the change has to respect the character’s existing journey. And if you are going to drastically change him, then at least SHOW how the change happened. Harvey Dent, Michael Corleone, Walter White, heck, even Spider-Man in SM3 (not that great a movie but it shows the change clearly), they are all examples of stories that SHOW good characters turned bad.

Edit: I don’t think Luke is evil in TLJ. Just contradictorily pessimistic.

And just to clarify, I honestly think TLJ is the best film in the ST. But Luke is just wrong.

Luke is jaded and withdrawn in TLJ (as setup by TFA). He feels his mistake was to follow Kenobi and Yoda’s teachings too closely. They didn’t work for Anakin and then they didn’t work again for Ben. He, like Kenobi, failed to consider that Palpatine was too powerful and both Anakin and Ben had been corrupted, not by the training methods, but by Palpatine. I still think the PT era Jedi had some major flaws and fixing them could have saved Anakin (I feel this in the story and feel it was confirmed by what Dave Filoni related that Lucas had said about Qui-gon in TPM).

Here is where I think they nailed Luke in TLJ. HIS ENTIRE SCHOOL WAS SLAUGHTERD BY ONE OF THE STUDENTS. Put yourself in a teacher’s place. You bring in your nephew who wiped out all the other students. You think you are just going to be normal after that? That is a crushing experience. That is a life altering experience. No one is going to come through that unscathed. Luke sets out on a quest (Han relates part of it in TFA and Lando some more in TROS) and ends up on Ach-to. His reaction to being asked to teach yet another student is immediate refusal. He wants to be left alone to his sorrow. Instead Yoda reminds him that we learn from our failures and it makes us better teachers. Then he bounces back and saves the day in a glorious final stand against his former pupil. Everything about his character in TLJ fits the situation as laid out in TFA. Part of that was Lucas’s doing. I know they said they dumped his treatment, but they didn’t dump all Lucas’s story. They kept a good deal. Luke not showing up until the 2nd movie was done before Lucas sold it to Disney.

And given Luke’s tragedy, his portrayal is on the money. He has reverted to that farm boy again. That unsure student looking for a Jedi Master in a swamp. Rey and Yoda snap him out of it and by the end of TLJ he recovers his Jedi demeanor and faces down Kylo Ren.

Then you have this new series which shows us this same Journey for Kenobi. He is down and jaded like Luke. But it is young Leia, Vader, and the inquisitors who snap him back to himself. A different story but a parallel journey. I bet the similarities to TLJ are what some don’t like. It is one of the things that I like.

Servii said:

And his first lesson with Kenobi was to act on instinct.

“Luke, this challenge with the training remote may seem silly, but there may come a time when you feel the need to sneak into your nephew’s room while he’s sleeping, probe his mind, and draw your laser sword over his unconscious body. And this will help prepare you for that.”

The whole chain of events surrounding the destruction of Luke’s temple is nonsensical. “Oh, my uncle apparently just tried to kill me, so I’m gonna proceed to murder all my friends.” Then, Luke just blames the Jedi as a whole for his mistake and screws off. He doesn’t contact Han or Leia. He doesn’t frantically go after Ben to try to right the situation. He just leaves to go die.

I fail to see how character regression is “epic.” And despite having different protagonists, these movies are still sequels to the OT, and meant to tell a continuing story. Whatever creative choices they make with the characters in the sequels will retroactively affect the original stories. TLJ solidifies that Luke was always just a loser on the inside who briefly became a strong jedi before returning back to his “true” whiny self.

Edit: It’d probably be best if we returned to talking about the show.

This relates to the show because Luke does the same thing in the ST that Kenobi and Yoda do between the PT and OT.

And I see how you are misreading what Luke did. You are jumping from Kylo Ren leveling the new Jedi Temple to Luke on Ach-to. He didn’t go straight there. He went on a quest for an explanation. He had to find Ach-to before he could go there. And his quest led him to the conclusion that he had followed the Republic era Jedi in a failed method of training.

Also, look at Anakin. There he was, fighting the Clone War, serving the Jedi, on the council, and then he uncovers that Palpatine is a Sith and shares it and then suddenly he turns and goes to Palpatine in order to save him. the next thing he is destroying the Jedi including the younglings. So Anakin’s fall to the dark side has a long build up and a very sudden fall. Ben’s fall is similar. He had Snoke influencing him for years and then Luke ignites his light saber and Ben lets loose and becomes Kylo Ren and destroys his fellow students. So the parallels of an abrupt turn and suddenly killing those he was just days before allied with lines up. And with Palpatine behind both, it makes sense that they are so parallel. Just with Anakin you have the need to save Padme and the weakness of his attachments and with Ben you have a troubled youth sent to his uncle for training so in him you have an even more precarious balance. Everything is there is the films. You don’t have to look elsewhere or make up theories. The data is there if you just look for it.

I think the choices made in TLJ and TROS really tie back to the PT and create that poetry Lucas likes and creates a truly epic end to this very mythic saga. I think all the side stories we are getting just fill more in the blank areas. Even seemingly distant stories are linking back to the main saga story. Kenobi gives us the parallel to Luke and how Kenobi overcame the state he was in at the end of ROTS. To me it is epic and in keeping with the mythic heroes journey (including when the old hero passes off to the new hero).

ADR14NAT1ON said:

yotsuya said:

ADR14NAT1ON said:

I think that sort of highlights the problem with the Jedi and their flaws. I don’t blame them, though, Vader committed mass genocide. I don’t think OW and Yoda were bad or anything, but it just goes to show how Luke was different, he was the only one who could break through to his father. A better kind of Jedi. (Kinda precisely the reason why I disliked his portrayal in TLJ)

Very interesting discussion. But why is it taking place in this thread?

In TESB and ROTJ he is young and idealistic. That does tend to make one the best. In TLJ he is old and jaded and that is a valid look at the same character. I liked how pieces of his earlier portrayal in ANH and TESB peeked through.

I understand it makes sense in the real world that people change, but narratively it has to be conveyed and developed better. Luke had a very strong character arc in which he grew as a person and as a Jedi. In the world of story, seeing his defining character trait and moment (him sparing Vader in hopes of redeeming him) cast aside and forgotten this easily is wrong. Specially considering that he’s this way since before the start of the movie. We don’t see a transition into this version of Luke that we can get behind, the flashbacks just show him already being different (deeming Ben gone and ATTEMPTING MURDER). Therefore, it feels like a betrayal to his character. IMO.

Why are we going by Kylo Ren’s version here? We are presented with 3 version and Rey makes Luke tell her the true one. In that, he acts on instinct to the evil growing in his nephew, draws and ignites his saber, but does nothing further. But Ben wakes and defends. Luke was always quick to action and even in ROTJ, took a moment to do the right thing. So I don’t see any problem with the way he told it to Rey the second time. It fits his personality. But because it wasn’t the first version we hear, it seems to be the last considered. Luke never tried to kill him, only drew and ignited his saber at the danger he sensed. And his first lesson with Kenobi was to act on instinct. And then when Kylo Ren destroys the new school and kills all the students (or do some follow him to the dark side?), Luke is crushed. Crushed that his student did this. That his nephew did this. That he triggered his nephew to do this. So he leaves and ends up in self-exile on Ach-to. This all fits with the Luke I grew up with in the OT. It shows an amazing understanding of human frailty in the face of unspeakable tragedy. That he loses that stable Jedi veneer and reverts back to his whiny farm boy traits is epic in its ties to mythology and the fallen older hero as well as realistic human reactions. Sure some don’t like to see their hero come to this, but he is not the hero of the ST. He is a side character there to aid the success of the main characters.

ADR14NAT1ON said:

I think that sort of highlights the problem with the Jedi and their flaws. I don’t blame them, though, Vader committed mass genocide. I don’t think OW and Yoda were bad or anything, but it just goes to show how Luke was different, he was the only one who could break through to his father. A better kind of Jedi. (Kinda precisely the reason why I disliked his portrayal in TLJ)

Very interesting discussion. But why is it taking place in this thread?

In TESB and ROTJ he is young and idealistic. That does tend to make one the best. In TLJ he is old and jaded and that is a valid look at the same character. I liked how pieces of his earlier portrayal in ANH and TESB peeked through.

Vladius said:

yotsuya said:

Vladius said:

henzINNIT said:

Regarding the jedi masters’ intentions in ROTJ, I had never given it much thought to be honest. I don’t think I even realised there was a debate until recently. To me it was clear that both Obi-Wan and Yoda wanted Luke to kill Vader, for several reasons:

Obi-Wan says that they have already lost when Luke says he can’t kill his own father. He then shuts down the idea of redemption when Luke suggests there is still good in Vader. This would be some really bizarre reverse psychology if Obi-Wan actually intended for Luke to somehow stop Vader peacefully. Also, this is not totally solid as it was cut, but in the ROTJ script there is more dialogue in this scene and Obi-Wan says quite explicitly that Luke is to ‘destroy’ Vader.

Yoda’s intentions are less clear in dialogue but I still get the impression that he wanted Vader to be killed. He says it was ‘unfortunate’ for Luke to find out Vader was his father, and considers the knowledge a burden. This could really only be the case if the intention was for Luke to kill Vader. If the plan was for Luke to somehow turn his father instead, knowing about him in advance would have been more of an asset than a hindrance.

Lastly, the dramatic tension of the film hinges on Luke believing in Vader’s redemption when literally no-one else would. He manages to force a resolution without resorting to killing, defying all expectations in the process. It’s bizarre to me to think his mentors secretly wanted the same thing, and they just refused to say that or worse heavily imply the opposite.

I addressed that already. He’s saying that Luke has to be willing to kill him if it comes down to it. He doesn’t intend him to stop him peacefully but we don’t know that he intends him to stop him at all. They’re sending Luke to Vader to face his fear and become a Jedi, not to kill the enemy faction’s leader and win the war.

I don’t see how that follows with the burden. It’s unfortunate and it’s a burden because it’s really harsh to find out that your father is Darth Vader regardless of what you do. It’s painful. It never even occurred to me that he would be saying that strictly in a tactical sense of how Luke is going to fight or neutralize Vader. That’s not how he delivers it.

The dramatic tension comes from a lot of things. There’s the Battle of Endor, of course. On the other side it’s mainly about Luke believing in Vader’s redemption while Vader himself doesn’t. Obi Wan and Yoda might have a pessimistic outlook on that but they’re not telling Luke not to try. They never explicitly say that Luke needs to kill Vader and not to try anything. The important part is that Luke goes to face Vader again regardless of the outcome. That’s what is holding him back from being a Jedi, which is what Yoda says.

Just look at what Obi-wan says in 2 duels with Anakin/Vader. “I will do what I must.” That is what Obi-wan expects of Luke in confronting Vader and Palpatine.

1. That was made after Return of the Jedi.
2. Return of the Jedi is long after that part in the story, after they’ve already tried to kill them and failed. In fact it makes even less sense for them to tell Luke to go kill both Vader and Palpatine when they couldn’t, and Luke is barely trained.
3. Killing Vader and Palpatine has no effect on the Battle of Endor, so it’s not about restoring the Republic or anything.
4. Obi Wan doesn’t even “do what [he] must” in the Obi Wan show!

Well, if you are going to ignore the PT, not much I can say. I feel the PT is crucial to understanding the motives of a Jedi.

But here is the key.

YODA
Stopped they must be. On this all depends. Only a fully trained Jedi Knight with the Force as his ally will conquer Vader and his Emperor. If you end your training now, if you choose the quick and easy path, as Vader did, you will become an agent of evil.

BEN
Patience.

LUKE
And sacrifice Han and Leia?

YODA
If you honor what they fight for…yes!

BEN
If you choose to face Vader, you will do it alone. I cannot interfere.

LUKE
I understand.
Artoo, fire up the converters.

Artoo whistles a happy reply.

BEN
Luke, don’t give in to hate - that leads to the dark side.

YODA
Strong is Vader. Mind what you have learned. Save you it can.

LUKE
I will. And I’ll return. I promise.

Note it is about conquering Vader and the Emperor, not killing them. Don’t give into hate, that leads to the Dark Side.

And then in ROTJ

LUKE
Then I am a Jedi?

YODA
Ohhh. Not yet. One thing remains: Vader. You must confront Vader. Then, only then, a Jedi will you be. And confront him you will.

and

YODA
Remember, a Jedi’s strength flows from the Force. But beware. Anger, fear, aggression. The dark side are they. Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny.

So, did they expect Luke to Kill Vader? If he had to yes. But showing compassion is part of being a Jedi. Compassion is why neither Obi-wan nor Luke killed Vader. If killing him comes from fear, anger, or aggression, they it would be wrong to give into that.

But the PT makes it even more clear that a Jedi should not just indiscriminately kill. Anakin knew this when he had Count Dooku at his mercy. But Palpatine egged him on to do it.

So we come back to Obi-wan saying he would do what he must and the wording of what Obi-wan and Yoda said to Luke. They did not say to go and kill Vader. They said he must face him. That Vader and the Emperor needed to be conquered. They expected him to go, act like a Jedi, and do what he must to achieve that goal. If that included killing them, he had to be willing to do so. If that meant showing compassion, then that would be what they expected. Obi-wan was ready to kill Vader if he had to, but he never had to. He defeated Vader without having to kill him. Leaving his redemption for his son to achieve.

Emre1601 said:

yotsuya said:

Emre1601 said:

Yotsuya, when mental gymnastics, or going down the proverbial rabbit hole, are required to try to explain inconsistencies and stretches like those listed in the OP, it indicates there are indeed issues in the series.

I enjoyed Obi-Wan Kenobi overall; there was much to enjoy in it, but could not help but notice the many issues I listed in the opening post. For me, it affected my appreciation of the show, and gives me concern for future Star Wars content when there are so many noticeable issues in a much anticipated and high profile series. Though everyone’s “mileage may vary” on this, and am happy that many others did enjoy it, regardless of such issues.

It is partly why I look forward to new Star Wars content away from what has come before. With new characters, in new or rarely seen settings, and in new eras. As from a consistency point of view, it has been demonstrated time and time again there is a real problem with adhering to what was actually established in the Original Trilogy.

I don’t require any mental gymnastics. I kept checking off things that explained what had previously required mental gymnastics. But I didn’t see anything that made new ones.

You literally introduced some mental gymnastics in your first paragraph of your post to me:

yotsuya said:

Well, the thing is that Lucas created quite a few issues between the OT and PT that were never dealt with until this series.

Padme dies and Leia was already taken away from her and yet she has memories of her mother. When Kenobi is around her in this series, she constantly reminds him if Padme. And there are several examples where Leia is obviously using the force to read minds and she could easily have seen Kenobi’s memories of her mother. She could also have seen some memories from bail as well.

Even if your “obvious” claim is taken as fact, along with your use of “could” ofs, when Luke asks Leia in ROTJ “Do you remember your mother? Your real mother?”, Leia does not reply or infer “Nothing at all. But I read the minds of others around me who were thinking about her when I was young, and so I will now present the memories from those others to you, as my own”.

Nor is Luke asking Leia for others thoughts of Leia’s mother.

This is an impressive feat of mental gymnastics you are introducing as some sort of justification.

But yes, we all agree Lucas did “create quite a few issues between the OT and PT”, but this series did not deal with them very much at all. As is listed in the OP, this series appears to add to these issues.
 

Leia’s powers are subtle and are never manifested. Vader doesn’t sense her power. Kenobi doesn’t sense her power. Luke doesn’t sense her power. Yoda says there is another, another Skykwalker and Kenobi says it is her. So only Yoda picked up on it. Even the inquisitors didn’t pick up on it. So her power must also provide some cloaking. She isn’t a skilled pilot or mechanic like her brother and father. She is a skilled diplomat and politician like her mother. So no one notices she has great power and how it does manifest itself aids her in what she is good at.

“Cloaking”? What? You seem to be using possible skillsets years in the future to justify the now. Luke does sense some of Leia’s ability in the being able to communicate by telepathy between the two of them in Empire Strikes Back. And in the ST we are shown that Leia was trained by Luke, so he does sense her power and abilities. Vader is impressed with her ability to resist the probe droid in SW: ANH. But Kenobi doesn’t get anywhere near her in Star Wars: ANH, up to the point of letting Vader strike him down.

Yet Leia actually directly tells Reva what Reva’s fears are during the failed interrogation on the Inquisitor Base, where Leia is able to resist Reva’s mind probe, and Reva is taken aback by it. So it is incorrect to say the Inquisitors do not pick up on it.
 

Why would Kenobi make up the story about Vader betraying and murdering Anakin? Either he is hiding things from Luke, or now, he is using Vader’s own explanation. But there is no need to tell Luke where it came from. He tells Luke that certain things can be true from a certain point of view. Not just this. So he used it as a teaching moment.

We know he didn’t make it up. We all know it is to hide the later retcon of Vader and Anakin now being the same person, and presented as a “stretch” in ROTJ. Yet why make the line of dialogue in Star Wars: ANH worse, or more noticeable, by now having Vader literally say to Obi-Wan that “I killed Anakin”, which certainly now jars even more with Kenobi’s line in Star Wars: ANH.
 

And for the most part, this series is a few days where a few people call him Obi-wan again, but mostly they call him Ben. So he is exaggerating a bit when he says he hasn’t used that name since before Luke was born. Even the original dialog provides some leeway. And it isn’t like he stopped being called Obi-wan before Luke was actually born even without this series. The Jedi were destroyed before Luke was born and he is likely marking that as when he ceased being called obi-wan, even if that is not quite true per Ep III. This series doesn’t really change that. It just reveals a few people did call him that in a brief episodes.

He doesn’t seem to be exaggerating when he said this line of dialogue at all. If you are going down the well-trodden path of the “crazy, forgetful and unreliable Ben” excuse many Prequel fans often use in an attempt to justify some of those discrepancies between the PT and OT to do so, that is up to you.

“A few people call him Obi Wan” and “a few people did call him that in a brief episodes” still results in him hearing the name Obi-Wan Kenobi on a number of occasions within the last 8-9 years. So not “That’s a name I haven’t hears in a long time. A long time.”, when you watch the scene back, the emphasis is also on “a long time” part of the dialogue.
 

One of the things about stories is that you have to apply a dose of reality to them. Taking every single quote as 100% fact does not reflect how most people talk. Most conversations have short cuts, incomplete statements, hyperbole, and don’t reflect the absolute truth. It is rare that someone can accurately relate the specific time since an event, like Sheldon Cooper, C-3PI, Mr. Spock, or Data constantly do. Most just throw out something that is roughly correct and writers write with that in mind. In fact writers are often more exact that real people ever are. Someone might throw out that something happened seven years ago in a conversation, but in reality it was 9 years ago. Times might be rounded up or down. And that is just the vagueness of time in conversations. Taking every word of dialog at face value is not a good way of checking realistic continuity (unless you have one of those very exact characters).

With respect, mistaking a couple of years is much different from mistaking 20 years for 9-10 years, and we know he isn’t making a mistake when he says the line of dialogue in Star Wars: ANH.

A “dose of reality required”? It is obvious Obi-Wan when states “That’s a name I haven’t hears in a long time. A long time” he is being accurate, truthful, and not mistaken; especially given the other line of dialogue from Obi Wan in Star Wars: ANH, dating these events around the same time of: “I haven’t gone by the name of Obi-Wan since, oh, before you were born”.
 

And Star Wars has always put the drama first. Things are not always described in great detail. The vagueness helps keep the hood on the magic behind the scenes. That is why Midichlorians were so objectionable - they opened the hood a bit and reduced the magic of the story telling.

So while there may be a few new quirks to the storyline because of this series, I think this series addressed most things well and answered more questions that it made. And any that it made are minor.

It is good you believe that, and I said in the OP, everyone has a different POV and everyone’s mileage on these isuses may vary. Obviously, we have a different point of view and disagree. But there is evidence of such discrepancies, stretches and issues listed in the OP, no matter some of the mental gymnastics resorted to in an attempt to dismiss some of the issues that people noticed in the series.

I am repeating myself, but it actually highlights how far down a rabbit hole people have to go to try and explain or justify some of these issues, inconsistencies and stretches; or somehow claiming these “issues between the OT and PT” are being addressed or “dealt with” in this series; and still come up short.

I look forward to your own thread where you claim watching this series meant you “kept checking off things that explained what had previously required mental gymnastics”. I honestly do. With respect. Emre.

That is all fine. It is your opinion and you are entitled to it, but I don’t agree. I don’t see any issues with this series and the saga films. None at all. That is my opinion. So we don’t agree. Who cares. We can both share our opinions and anyone can join in or have even other opinions. That is what discussion is about. As I said, I don’t see any mental gymnastics needed to fit this in with the saga. It think the landscape before this required more and this has smoothed things out considerably.

Fan_edit_fan said:

yotsuya said:

Emre1601 said:

Yotsuya, when mental gymnastics, or going down the proverbial rabbit hole, are required to try to explain inconsistencies and stretches like those listed in the OP, it indicates there are indeed issues in the series.

I enjoyed Obi-Wan Kenobi overall; there was much to enjoy in it, but could not help but notice the many issues I listed in the opening post. For me, it affected my appreciation of the show, and gives me concern for future Star Wars content when there are so many noticeable issues in a much anticipated and high profile series. Though everyone’s “mileage may vary” on this, and am happy that many others did enjoy it, regardless of such issues.

It is partly why I look forward to new Star Wars content away from what has come before. With new characters, in new or rarely seen settings, and in new eras. As from a consistency point of view, it has been demonstrated time and time again there is a real problem with adhering to what was actually established in the Original Trilogy.

I don’t require any mental gymnastics. I kept checking off things that explained what had previously required mental gymnastics. But I didn’t see anything that made new ones.

You’ve been told that repeatedly by many people on this forum and you just get defensive and claim they are all incorrect. I think great many things go right over your head.

Stop thinking you live in a world where people can’t have different opinions and both be right. I’m not saying anyone is incorrect. I’m saying I don’t agree. What is going over your head is that I am stating my opinion. I found this series to solve more issues than it caused. I think a great deal of the issues listed here are nitpicking to a high order. That may be what some truly believe, but that is not my opinion and I don’t have to agree.

Vladius said:

henzINNIT said:

Regarding the jedi masters’ intentions in ROTJ, I had never given it much thought to be honest. I don’t think I even realised there was a debate until recently. To me it was clear that both Obi-Wan and Yoda wanted Luke to kill Vader, for several reasons:

Obi-Wan says that they have already lost when Luke says he can’t kill his own father. He then shuts down the idea of redemption when Luke suggests there is still good in Vader. This would be some really bizarre reverse psychology if Obi-Wan actually intended for Luke to somehow stop Vader peacefully. Also, this is not totally solid as it was cut, but in the ROTJ script there is more dialogue in this scene and Obi-Wan says quite explicitly that Luke is to ‘destroy’ Vader.

Yoda’s intentions are less clear in dialogue but I still get the impression that he wanted Vader to be killed. He says it was ‘unfortunate’ for Luke to find out Vader was his father, and considers the knowledge a burden. This could really only be the case if the intention was for Luke to kill Vader. If the plan was for Luke to somehow turn his father instead, knowing about him in advance would have been more of an asset than a hindrance.

Lastly, the dramatic tension of the film hinges on Luke believing in Vader’s redemption when literally no-one else would. He manages to force a resolution without resorting to killing, defying all expectations in the process. It’s bizarre to me to think his mentors secretly wanted the same thing, and they just refused to say that or worse heavily imply the opposite.

I addressed that already. He’s saying that Luke has to be willing to kill him if it comes down to it. He doesn’t intend him to stop him peacefully but we don’t know that he intends him to stop him at all. They’re sending Luke to Vader to face his fear and become a Jedi, not to kill the enemy faction’s leader and win the war.

I don’t see how that follows with the burden. It’s unfortunate and it’s a burden because it’s really harsh to find out that your father is Darth Vader regardless of what you do. It’s painful. It never even occurred to me that he would be saying that strictly in a tactical sense of how Luke is going to fight or neutralize Vader. That’s not how he delivers it.

The dramatic tension comes from a lot of things. There’s the Battle of Endor, of course. On the other side it’s mainly about Luke believing in Vader’s redemption while Vader himself doesn’t. Obi Wan and Yoda might have a pessimistic outlook on that but they’re not telling Luke not to try. They never explicitly say that Luke needs to kill Vader and not to try anything. The important part is that Luke goes to face Vader again regardless of the outcome. That’s what is holding him back from being a Jedi, which is what Yoda says.

Just look at what Obi-wan says in 2 duels with Anakin/Vader. “I will do what I must.” That is what Obi-wan expects of Luke in confronting Vader and Palpatine.

BedeHistory731 said:

Leia is 19 in ANH. To somebody who is 19, 9 years is a heck of a long time.

Indeed it is. The older you get the quicker times seems to go.

Emre1601 said:

Yotsuya, when mental gymnastics, or going down the proverbial rabbit hole, are required to try to explain inconsistencies and stretches like those listed in the OP, it indicates there are indeed issues in the series.

I enjoyed Obi-Wan Kenobi overall; there was much to enjoy in it, but could not help but notice the many issues I listed in the opening post. For me, it affected my appreciation of the show, and gives me concern for future Star Wars content when there are so many noticeable issues in a much anticipated and high profile series. Though everyone’s “mileage may vary” on this, and am happy that many others did enjoy it, regardless of such issues.

It is partly why I look forward to new Star Wars content away from what has come before. With new characters, in new or rarely seen settings, and in new eras. As from a consistency point of view, it has been demonstrated time and time again there is a real problem with adhering to what was actually established in the Original Trilogy.

I don’t require any mental gymnastics. I kept checking off things that explained what had previously required mental gymnastics. But I didn’t see anything that made new ones.

MalaStrana#2 said:

[yotsuya said:]
And there are several examples where Leia is obviously using the force to read minds and she could easily have seen Kenobi’s memories of her mother. She could also have seen some memories from bail as well.

It’s so obvious and yet subtle that I have no idea where it is implied she can do that.
I guess it’s thanks to Force blindness she can get memories of her mother without getting to know she has a Luke bro and that Vader is her darthy daddy 👀

The fact that Leia has memories of her mother before she died is a continuity error from the PT which is irrelevant to try to fix anyway.

The scene with her cousin. She reads him like a book telling him that he is scared of his father. I think she did this 2 or 3 times in the first couple of episodes. It is very clear it is a force skill at work because she might have that background on her cousin, but not the others. And even with her cousin it is too pointed and exact and his reaction is too surprised for that to be something she could readily know. I thought it was very obvious the first couple of times I watched it.

Kaweebo said:

yotsuya said:
To be frank, every time they add to the Star Wars universe (and this is since 1977) there are always some people who hate the new additions and think it changes things the wrong way. That happened to TESB, ROTJ, the PT, the ST, Clone Wars, Rebels, Resistance, Book of Boba Fett, and this series. I think the only one that hasn’t had that reaction was The Mandalorian season 1. It is a tiring pattern. Just let the franchise grow and enjoy what you want of it. If that is just the films, great. If that is just the original 1977 film, great. Some of us are enjoying the expanding Star Wars universe and actually like all the additions.

That only works if it makes sense and doesn’t irreparably make the story worse. There is no justification you can give for the Empire knowing the Organas are Jedi sympathizers and not immediately taking care of them; no, blowing up their planet ten years later is not the same thing. No, there is no reason the Empire wouldn’t immediately take them out or place them on 24/7 surveillance and you can’t just write the script for the writers to make it make sense, anymore than you can do it with Obi-Wan letting Vader live or Leia never mentioning to Luke ever that she knew Kenobi. Just saying “maybe this happened off-screen” or “maybe this character was thinking this” is not a substitute for good storytelling, which is all I care about. Additions that only complicate the narrative rather than creating actual, meaningful context does nothing but dilute the story.

I like to think I’m very forgiving of SW, I like the prequels even though I know they are bad movies, because I appreciate the world they created even if the execution wasn’t very good. Hell, I’m even willing to forgive a lot of the stuff in the sequel trilogy despite it not going anywhere near the direction I wished it would and being terrible in many ways.

But pissing in my ear and calling it good writing is just annoying, especially when I’ve got you on the sidelines cheerleading, “actually, their piss in your ear is actually good because in my headcanon, blah blah blah…”

I will enjoy what I want of the saga. I’m also gonna complain about the stuff I do not like. If you don’t like my opinion, stop replying to me.

Well, you think it makes the story worse. I don’t. I think it is probably obvious that Bail Organa is a Jedi Sympathizer. But there is no evidence he is hiding a Jedi or supporting a Jedi or otherwise violating any Imperial law. And as we see in ANH, Senators still carry some heft in the Empire. Reva is chastised for kidnapping a Senator’s child. So your claim that it somehow changes things and would mean instant execution is negated by both the series itself and by ANH. Until the Emperor dissolves the Senate being a Senator makes a person very important and nearly untouchable.

And I truly do think it is well written. But we don’t have to agree on that. It is a matter of opinion not fact. We don’t have to agree.

Kaweebo said:

Beyond the inconsistencies and contradictions with what we see later, the thing that kills me most with this series is the over-re-contextualization of the scene in Obi-Wan’s hut in the first movie. We’ve already got Obi-Wan “from a certain point of view”-ing the events of the prequel trilogy that subtext drips out of every word he says. It was perfect the way it was after RotJ and only bolstered by RotS.

But now not only is Obi-Wan lying about Anakin, here comes Leia who is ALSO lying about her experience with Obi-Wan and he also doesn’t tell Luke any of this for some reason, as well as the fact that Leia never brings this up later. So now, nearly every character is a liar in that movie except Luke, who may or may not have knowledge of what happened to him cause hey, guess what, he was attacked by an Inquisitor lady at 10 years old! Doesn’t that add so much??

After 45 years, nearly half a century, it just comes off as too much, too late. We shouldn’t STILL be pretending like there’s hidden secrets in ANH. Its story is complete, and the idea that the Disney writers were “adding context” to George’s work is just insulting.

I don’t agree. Just my opinion, but I don’t. For one thing, C-3PO lets out a strong of lies in ANH. It’s there in the original edit. He knows who the princess is and then he lies to Luke about who the hologram is. Leia is a Senator and we already know she lies about the location of the Rebel base. And she knows the name of Ben Kenobi. When reframed by the PT, there are lots of questions raised. This series gives us answers to those questions without derailing the saga narrative. George created a lot of glitches in his movies and it is nice to see some attempt to give them a logical answer. It isn’t that there are hidden secrets. People should be able to enjoy the saga with all its questions just fine. But for fans, it is nice to see a story that answers some of the most notable. We didn’t need the PT either, but we got it. Many enjoy it.

To be frank, every time they add to the Star Wars universe (and this is since 1977) there are always some people who hate the new additions and think it changes things the wrong way. That happened to TESB, ROTJ, the PT, the ST, Clone Wars, Rebels, Resistance, Book of Boba Fett, and this series. I think the only one that hasn’t had that reaction was The Mandalorian season 1. It is a tiring pattern. Just let the franchise grow and enjoy what you want of it. If that is just the films, great. If that is just the original 1977 film, great. Some of us are enjoying the expanding Star Wars universe and actually like all the additions.

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

Servii said:

His existence never erases Anakin balancing the force. He creates Snoke and turns Ben into Kylo Ren. That creates the new imbalance that results in Rey being a new Chosen One.

If Palpatine created/manipulated the people who broke the balance, then that means his survival did nullify the balance that Anakin was supposed to bring. If he’s alive, even barely alive, then the Sith still exist and nothing about the imbalance has changed.

That is how you look at it. That is not how I look at it.

I also prefer to stick to just the movies and TV series in which there is no explanation for how Palpatine is back. In that, I feel that the Sith technicians are trying to create a clone that can hold Palpatne and that Grogu’s DNA is vital to the success of that project and even with that, they cannot create an independently viable clone. Though the do create Snoke. So in my view it is years before Palpatine can occupy a suitable body to have any power. So there is a good period where the force is balanced and peace has a chance to take hold.

“It is possible he was concieved by the midichlorians.”

“You refer to the prophesy of the one who will bring balance to the Force for a little while…kinda…”

Everything is for a little while. Many things have to be done again. And I think that whatever the prophesy, Anakin kind of botched it by turning to the Dark Side, so his redemption and brining balance may not have been as complete, but Rey couldn’t have done what she did without what he had done.

Servii said:

His existence never erases Anakin balancing the force. He creates Snoke and turns Ben into Kylo Ren. That creates the new imbalance that results in Rey being a new Chosen One.

If Palpatine created/manipulated the people who broke the balance, then that means his survival did nullify the balance that Anakin was supposed to bring. If he’s alive, even barely alive, then the Sith still exist and nothing about the imbalance has changed.

That is how you look at it. That is not how I look at it.

I also prefer to stick to just the movies and TV series in which there is no explanation for how Palpatine is back. In that, I feel that the Sith technicians are trying to create a clone that can hold Palpatne and that Grogu’s DNA is vital to the success of that project and even with that, they cannot create an independently viable clone. Though the do create Snoke. So in my view it is years before Palpatine can occupy a suitable body to have any power. So there is a good period where the force is balanced and peace has a chance to take hold.

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

cap said:

yotsuya said:

cap said:

BedeHistory731 said:

cap said:

RogueLeader said:

The Chosen One thing is something is wish George never explicitly answered.

He said Anakin was the Chosen One, and if you only look at Lucas’s films that makes sense.

It’s more just a PT thing, I find. I guess it does work in all movies if killing the Emperor was all he needed to do, it could work. However, the OT never really says much about old Anakin beyond “good pilot,” “good friend,” and “good at being a warrior.” He’s decidedly not a chosen one there.

The concept may not appear in the OT, but it’s not a contradiction either. Obi-Wan once believed that Anakin was the Chosen One. By the time of the OT, he no longer believes that. Why would he mention that he once did?

If one views Luke or Rey as the extension of Anakin’s deeds, then he could still be a proper chosen one.

In what way is Rey an extension of Anakin’s deeds? For that matter how is Luke an extension of Anakin’s deeds, unless you mean the deed of f*cking Padme?

Also, nothing about the prophecy says that balance had to be permanent.

Is it even temporary? Anakin’s act of personal redemption changes very little as far as anyone else is concerned. Sidious is still alive. The Sith plan is still in motion. The de-Sidioused Empire is on its way out, but the First Order will take its place, and the Exegol fleet will be ready by the time the First Order falls. In the big picture, what has Anakin actually accomplished?

What did we accomplish in WWI and the Treaty of Versailles when 20 years later we had WWII? Art imitating life.

And it is quite clear that Palpatine wasn’t really back. He was knocked out of power and for an unknow period of time, was had no influence on the Galaxy. Even if the transfer was immediate (I do not think so myself), his political power was lost and his hold on the Dark Side of the Force was broken. Anakin restored the balance of the force, regardless of what Palpatine and his Sith disciples were up to. It took 30 years for him to claw his way back and even then he did not have the power he once did. Some readings of the ST make it sound like nothing had changed when it is quite clear that everything had changed and they were fighting to prevent Palpatine from gaining power again. It took Palpatine more than 13 years of manipulation and trickery to become Emperor the first time and the events of the PT take place over just a year and there is no way he could undo the past 30 years of freedom in that short of time. Nor could the First Order.

In the ST, the First Order, Kylo Ren, and Palpatine are a scary monster trying to topple a 30 year old Republic from the outside. In the PT, you have a skilled political manipulator working from within an 1000 year old corrupted republic and he is able to use the system to gain and keep the power he craved. He cannot get that back in any easy way in the PT. Not possible. His plan is victory by intimidation (put me back in power or I will destroy your worlds) and Rey stops him before that plan can even start. So the ST is not a rehash of the OT. The situation is totally different and the stakes are different.

Palpatine died and Anakin balanced the Force. That was true in ROTJ and it remains true in TROS. Palpatine came back and Rey destroys Palpatine utterly and balances the Force again. I found this to be a very fitting thing to happen since Lucas’s inspiration for Star Wars was Flash Gordon and Ming kept coming back when you thought he was dead. Palpatine coming back once is a nice tribute to that origin and made a great story.

Losing control of the Empire was a minor inconvenience for Sidious, and it had more to do with the rebels blowing up the Death Star than with Anakin throwing Sidious down that shaft, which ultimately accomplished nothing. Sidious could have shown up and controlled what was left of the Empire, but the Empire had been sufficiently weakened that the First Order and secret control were the better way to go.

As we see, it is more than a minor inconvenience for him. It leads to his total annihilation. The films don’t indicate when Palpatine came to life again. My guess has been that something to do with Grogu is going to prove to be a key to his return. Though I see that in the current EU (which is very similar to the Legends EU) he finds a host body almost immediately. Still he died and was able to preserve his essence and transfer to a different body. His plans for the Final Order were delayed and his power in the galaxy evaporated, except on the outer rim where the First Order came together from the remnants of his Empire. So his death in the shaft did serve a purpose as it gave the galaxy 30 years of freedom which ultimately led to the destruction of the Final Order fleet and to Sidious himself. Sideous had not perfected the creation of a host body so there is no way he could show up to do anything and had to find a suitable stand in, which was Snoke. So Anakin’s actions in ROTJ were crucial to Palpatine’s eventual total demise.

Anakin brought balance to the force for long enough that Rey was born and could put it in balance for a longer term. I would say from the saga that this is because Anakin was not trained the right way (which would have required a more unconventional teacher like Qui-gon) which led to his fall. And his actions in destroying the Emperor did not lead to Palpatine’s total destruction. As the Jedi rose again, so did the Sith. After ROTJ, the PT Jedi are gone (Rey is learning from the original texts, not Luke or Yoda) and the Sith are gone. Full balance, which Anakin was unable to achieve due to his fall to the Dark Side, was achieved. But without Anakin’s sacrifice and Palpatine’s fall, the galaxy would not have had the time for a new chosen one to be born and ready. So Rey finished what Anakin started.

Palpatine was never truly gone. His physical body was destroyed, but his spirit endured and almost instantly inhabited a clone body. Hence, Anakin never restored balance, since the prophesy stated the Chosen One would bring balance to the Force by destroying the Sith. Evidently he failed to do that. It also seems evident to me, that a millenia old prophesy would not pertain to just a few decades of peace or lack of activity from the Sith, especially one that already existed when the Sith were in hiding. TROS wanted to have its cake and eat it. Hence, having Anakin say “Restore balance like I did”. However, the reality is, that Anakin is just not the Chosen One, if you accept the narrative of TROS (which I don’t, since it’s a pretty awful film imo), and Rey restored balance, and thus is the Chosen One (if Palps is truly dead this time).

What I consider Anakin to have done in ROTJ is to break the Sith hold on the Force and release the Jedi access to the Force that had been suppressed (as noted in the dialog in the PT). And we are never given the full text of the prophesy and Yoda says it may have been misinterpreted. The prophesy was about bringing balance to the force, not destroying the Sith. That is something Kenobi said that may or may not be in the prophesy. Palpatine went from the center of the galaxy (in terms of influence and politics) to a denizen of the rim where his power and influence were limited. And Palaptine’s voyage to find a body to inhabit was not instantaneous. It took time and he was not at full power the moment he was in the body. He also ended up being trapped in a body that was not mobile. And the Force includes the physical form. A being separated from their physical form is less so Palpatine is not as strong as he was before. Not until he inhabits a body that is sound and in tune with the Force. That is his goal in TROS, to take over Rey’s body. He fails so he has never gotten his full strength back. His existence never erases Anakin balancing the force. He creates Snoke and turns Ben into Kylo Ren. That creates the new imbalance that results in Rey being a new Chosen One.

cap said:

yotsuya said:

cap said:

BedeHistory731 said:

cap said:

RogueLeader said:

The Chosen One thing is something is wish George never explicitly answered.

He said Anakin was the Chosen One, and if you only look at Lucas’s films that makes sense.

It’s more just a PT thing, I find. I guess it does work in all movies if killing the Emperor was all he needed to do, it could work. However, the OT never really says much about old Anakin beyond “good pilot,” “good friend,” and “good at being a warrior.” He’s decidedly not a chosen one there.

The concept may not appear in the OT, but it’s not a contradiction either. Obi-Wan once believed that Anakin was the Chosen One. By the time of the OT, he no longer believes that. Why would he mention that he once did?

If one views Luke or Rey as the extension of Anakin’s deeds, then he could still be a proper chosen one.

In what way is Rey an extension of Anakin’s deeds? For that matter how is Luke an extension of Anakin’s deeds, unless you mean the deed of f*cking Padme?

Also, nothing about the prophecy says that balance had to be permanent.

Is it even temporary? Anakin’s act of personal redemption changes very little as far as anyone else is concerned. Sidious is still alive. The Sith plan is still in motion. The de-Sidioused Empire is on its way out, but the First Order will take its place, and the Exegol fleet will be ready by the time the First Order falls. In the big picture, what has Anakin actually accomplished?

What did we accomplish in WWI and the Treaty of Versailles when 20 years later we had WWII? Art imitating life.

And it is quite clear that Palpatine wasn’t really back. He was knocked out of power and for an unknow period of time, was had no influence on the Galaxy. Even if the transfer was immediate (I do not think so myself), his political power was lost and his hold on the Dark Side of the Force was broken. Anakin restored the balance of the force, regardless of what Palpatine and his Sith disciples were up to. It took 30 years for him to claw his way back and even then he did not have the power he once did. Some readings of the ST make it sound like nothing had changed when it is quite clear that everything had changed and they were fighting to prevent Palpatine from gaining power again. It took Palpatine more than 13 years of manipulation and trickery to become Emperor the first time and the events of the PT take place over just a year and there is no way he could undo the past 30 years of freedom in that short of time. Nor could the First Order.

In the ST, the First Order, Kylo Ren, and Palpatine are a scary monster trying to topple a 30 year old Republic from the outside. In the PT, you have a skilled political manipulator working from within an 1000 year old corrupted republic and he is able to use the system to gain and keep the power he craved. He cannot get that back in any easy way in the PT. Not possible. His plan is victory by intimidation (put me back in power or I will destroy your worlds) and Rey stops him before that plan can even start. So the ST is not a rehash of the OT. The situation is totally different and the stakes are different.

Palpatine died and Anakin balanced the Force. That was true in ROTJ and it remains true in TROS. Palpatine came back and Rey destroys Palpatine utterly and balances the Force again. I found this to be a very fitting thing to happen since Lucas’s inspiration for Star Wars was Flash Gordon and Ming kept coming back when you thought he was dead. Palpatine coming back once is a nice tribute to that origin and made a great story.

Losing control of the Empire was a minor inconvenience for Sidious, and it had more to do with the rebels blowing up the Death Star than with Anakin throwing Sidious down that shaft, which ultimately accomplished nothing. Sidious could have shown up and controlled what was left of the Empire, but the Empire had been sufficiently weakened that the First Order and secret control were the better way to go.

As we see, it is more than a minor inconvenience for him. It leads to his total annihilation. The films don’t indicate when Palpatine came to life again. My guess has been that something to do with Grogu is going to prove to be a key to his return. Though I see that in the current EU (which is very similar to the Legends EU) he finds a host body almost immediately. Still he died and was able to preserve his essence and transfer to a different body. His plans for the Final Order were delayed and his power in the galaxy evaporated, except on the outer rim where the First Order came together from the remnants of his Empire. So his death in the shaft did serve a purpose as it gave the galaxy 30 years of freedom which ultimately led to the destruction of the Final Order fleet and to Sidious himself. Sideous had not perfected the creation of a host body so there is no way he could show up to do anything and had to find a suitable stand in, which was Snoke. So Anakin’s actions in ROTJ were crucial to Palpatine’s eventual total demise.

Anakin brought balance to the force for long enough that Rey was born and could put it in balance for a longer term. I would say from the saga that this is because Anakin was not trained the right way (which would have required a more unconventional teacher like Qui-gon) which led to his fall. And his actions in destroying the Emperor did not lead to Palpatine’s total destruction. As the Jedi rose again, so did the Sith. After ROTJ, the PT Jedi are gone (Rey is learning from the original texts, not Luke or Yoda) and the Sith are gone. Full balance, which Anakin was unable to achieve due to his fall to the Dark Side, was achieved. But without Anakin’s sacrifice and Palpatine’s fall, the galaxy would not have had the time for a new chosen one to be born and ready. So Rey finished what Anakin started.

Here is my take on the PT Jedi.

They have taken the events of the past and built a dogma on it that is skewed. To avoid the Dark Side they have forbidden attachments. Rather than teach their students about the Dark Side and how to avoid its temptations, they seem to be practicing avoidance. It relates to other things where in the desire to avoid something those who fear it just say avoid it when in reality what you need to avoid it is knowledge and skills to help avoid it. In the PT this comes down to Qui-gon vs. the Jedi Counsel. The Jedi Counsel want to avoid any hint of the Dark Side. Anakin has some fear. Rather than address his fear, they do not want to train him. Qui-gon sees no such obstacle and is willing to train him. What Lucas told Filoni is that the Qui-gon/Maul duel in TPM was a duel for the fate of Anakin. Williams called the music Duel of the Fates for that reason. Had Qui-gon won, Anakin would have been taught differently and would have had the tools to deal with his fear and attachments. Instead he got Obi-wan who went along with the typical Jedi Counsel methods. Obi-wan blames himself and thinks Yoda could have done better, but Yoda was on the counsel and I don’t think he would have taught what Anakin needed. I don’t think those on the counsel really understood him, just like they didn’t understand Qui-gon.

So the Jedi had gotten off track. Probably recently. Probably in Yoda’s life. Mace feels like the face of what is wrong with the Jedi. How he treats Anakin feels in the story like he is driving Anakin to the Dark Side.

Plus there is Palpatine. He is in constant contact with all these Jedi, younglings to masters, and they are unable to see that he is the Sith Master. Their ability to access the force is weakened. So the PT Jedi are not the Jedi they once were. They are not the Jedi they should be. How much is Palpatine’s direct interference and how much is due to how powerful he is I cannot say. But his influence of these events is not insignificant.

And then the Jedi get embroiled in the Clone War (in ANH Kenobi calls it The Clone Wars, plural). They go from being ambassadors and guardians of peace and justice to warriors. They take on additional titles like General. Even the Padawan outrank the clone troopers.

Now, I’ve heard some complain about the concept of gray Jedi. But now in canon we have one in Rey. A gray Jedi is a Jedi that does not fear or ignore the dark side. This is a Jedi in balance with the force. This is the origin of the Jedi before the rise of the Sith. This is not a Jedi that would necessarily deliberately tap into the dark side and flirt with its temptations, but it is a Jedi who knows how to navigate the full force. Remember, Filoni worked closely with Lucas and many things he did in Clone Wars or Rebels was based on what he learned from Lucas. We get the father son and daughter and Bendu. The father and Bendu are both in balance where the son is the dark side and the daughter is the light side. Then we have the Jedi Temple guards. And while the light saber colors have accidental origins, they have come to have meaning. Red means they are on the Dark Side. Blue are for noble warriors. Green are for those wise in the Force. Purple is for those who are firmly on the light side. Yellow is for those in balance. White is for those who have more than one role. We see each of these colors in the canon sources. The Jedi Temple guards and Rey have yellow. Only Mace, the most extreme Jedi and the harshest on Anakin, has purple. Most are blue or green. Qui-gon, Luke, and Yoda are green. Ahsoka’s sabers turn white after she leaves the Jedi order.

There are some things that have come out of all this that Lucas has said he doesn’t like, but he hasn’t done anything to negate them. In fact as the universe expands, these things just get more firmly established. He has said that the Jedi light and dark is not like the eastern concept of yin/yang, but yet when it is described, it really is. The best I can see is that the world of Star Wars is very influenced by eastern philosophy, but it isn’t quite the same.

So I feel that Luke’s assessment of the PT Jedi in The Last Jedi was spot on, if a bit harsh. The PT Jedi found themselves weakened in the force and called on to fill more warrior roles than their typical guardian one. Rather than deal with the issues, they pulled inward and tried to pretend that nothing had changed (something Luke labels hubris). Luke learned the old Jedi way from Kenobi and Yoda and he feels that this way led to Ben’s fall like it did Anakin’s fall. Luke is a bit harsh due to his own history, but the PT really does show the hubris of the Jedi. They fear to let it be known that their ability to access the force is diminished. So it really is hypocritical of them to refuse to train Anakin because he has a bit of fear. But this is all likely caused by Palpatine and his machinations. He has twisted some Jedi into following him (definitely Dooku and possibly Syfo Dias and later Anakin). So some of their issues might not be there fault, but I think it is certain that the way the Jedi are portrayed in the PT are not the glorious Jedi of the past. They are flawed and no longer as powerful as they once were.

Most of my opinion stems from the PT films themselves. I have not read the books or explored the PT era EU. I have not read the comics. I have just watched the films and TV series. The flaws are not really covered in the Clone Wars, only Anakin’s power and arrogance and weaknesses. But the films to me make it very clear that the Jedi are not what they once were and are a problem. They need a refresh. I’m sure it could have been done without wiping them out, but they do get wiped out and then so do the Sith. Imperfectly in ROTJ and then more completely in TROS.

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

MalaStrana#2 said:

yotsuya said:
I suggest you watch it again.

Don’t be so cruel.

If you don’t rewatch it how can you be sure what you caught or missed? I’ve rewatched several things that I thought were really bad to be sure my opinion didn’t change. In this case it is obvious he missed how injured she is. I did the first time I watched it. The second time it was quite obvious.

I watched it more than once. She looks disheveled, but easily fights off Owen and Beru (aside from one punch on her “wound”), which makes here more furious. She has no trouble running after Luke in a fury. She clearly does not appear grievously injured. She does not significantly tire. She’s not limping, disoriented or showing clear indications of being in serious pain outside of a single moment when Owen hits her, but is not able to slow her down one bit.

It’s like we didn’t watch the same thing. Because she was clearly weak and having difficulty. She collapses after bringing Luke back. Where before none of these things would have given her any difficulty at all. So I don’t know what you were seeing, but you missed it all.

MalaStrana#2 said:

yotsuya said:
I suggest you watch it again.

Don’t be so cruel.

If you don’t rewatch it how can you be sure what you caught or missed? I’ve rewatched several things that I thought were really bad to be sure my opinion didn’t change. In this case it is obvious he missed how injured she is. I did the first time I watched it. The second time it was quite obvious.

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

See, I think some are missing the point. My point is not that any one theory I have come up with (or others) is THE explanation for things that aren’t explained, but that there are possible explanations and Star Wars has a habit of not clearly explaining every turn and point in favor of the drama of the moment. From just the canon sources (regarding Maul and the Grand Inquisitor), there appears to be some dark force power that they can tap into to remain alive after otherwise deadly injuries. We have several characters run through with a lightsaber (or cut in half) and only Qui-gon dies. No explanation. But in each of those instances, what we see works to forward the drama. Lucas is the one who insisted that Filoni bring back Maul. He was cut in half, that is far worse than being run through. Though you could argue that the saber didn’t touch any part for very long and didn’t do as much damage. But Qui-gon was run through almost as fast and died. The Grand Inquisitor and Reva are run through slowly and both survive. Why? How? The force is the most likely reason. Do we really need all the details? No. Star Wars isn’t big on such expositions. Especially the PT. And this series is very tied to the PT.

The problem here is, that it is the hallmark of bad/lazy writing to just say “Somehow Palpatine returned!”, or “Somehow Reva survived!”. It leaves it up to the viewer to make sense of a nonsensical situation. The fact that Lucas did it too with Darth Maul doesn’t suddenly make it good writing. Additionally, having characters continually survive what should be lethal injuries lowers the stakes, because apparently any character can just be killed or survive based on the writer’s whims rather than pre-established rules of the universe. Finally even if Reva is to survive (again!), the situation is made much worse by the fact, that she walks away virtually unscathed from what should at the very least be a debilitating wound. Whatever you might say about Maul surviving being cut in half, he was left with consequences. It took him a long time to recuperate, and he had no legs.

Virtually unscathed? I suggest you watch it again.

She’s a bit sore and sensitive to the touch, like she has a stomach cramp, so yeah, virtually unscathed.

It’s pretty obvious she needs medical attention and is on the verge of collapse and sheer willpower is what is keeping her going. Virtually unscathed is a false description.

cap said:

BedeHistory731 said:

cap said:

RogueLeader said:

The Chosen One thing is something is wish George never explicitly answered.

He said Anakin was the Chosen One, and if you only look at Lucas’s films that makes sense.

It’s more just a PT thing, I find. I guess it does work in all movies if killing the Emperor was all he needed to do, it could work. However, the OT never really says much about old Anakin beyond “good pilot,” “good friend,” and “good at being a warrior.” He’s decidedly not a chosen one there.

The concept may not appear in the OT, but it’s not a contradiction either. Obi-Wan once believed that Anakin was the Chosen One. By the time of the OT, he no longer believes that. Why would he mention that he once did?

If one views Luke or Rey as the extension of Anakin’s deeds, then he could still be a proper chosen one.

In what way is Rey an extension of Anakin’s deeds? For that matter how is Luke an extension of Anakin’s deeds, unless you mean the deed of f*cking Padme?

Also, nothing about the prophecy says that balance had to be permanent.

Is it even temporary? Anakin’s act of personal redemption changes very little as far as anyone else is concerned. Sidious is still alive. The Sith plan is still in motion. The de-Sidioused Empire is on its way out, but the First Order will take its place, and the Exegol fleet will be ready by the time the First Order falls. In the big picture, what has Anakin actually accomplished?

What did we accomplish in WWI and the Treaty of Versailles when 20 years later we had WWII? Art imitating life.

And it is quite clear that Palpatine wasn’t really back. He was knocked out of power and for an unknow period of time, was had no influence on the Galaxy. Even if the transfer was immediate (I do not think so myself), his political power was lost and his hold on the Dark Side of the Force was broken. Anakin restored the balance of the force, regardless of what Palpatine and his Sith disciples were up to. It took 30 years for him to claw his way back and even then he did not have the power he once did. Some readings of the ST make it sound like nothing had changed when it is quite clear that everything had changed and they were fighting to prevent Palpatine from gaining power again. It took Palpatine more than 13 years of manipulation and trickery to become Emperor the first time and the events of the PT take place over just a year and there is no way he could undo the past 30 years of freedom in that short of time. Nor could the First Order.

In the ST, the First Order, Kylo Ren, and Palpatine are a scary monster trying to topple a 30 year old Republic from the outside. In the PT, you have a skilled political manipulator working from within an 1000 year old corrupted republic and he is able to use the system to gain and keep the power he craved. He cannot get that back in any easy way in the PT. Not possible. His plan is victory by intimidation (put me back in power or I will destroy your worlds) and Rey stops him before that plan can even start. So the ST is not a rehash of the OT. The situation is totally different and the stakes are different.

Palpatine died and Anakin balanced the Force. That was true in ROTJ and it remains true in TROS. Palpatine came back and Rey destroys Palpatine utterly and balances the Force again. I found this to be a very fitting thing to happen since Lucas’s inspiration for Star Wars was Flash Gordon and Ming kept coming back when you thought he was dead. Palpatine coming back once is a nice tribute to that origin and made a great story.

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

See, I think some are missing the point. My point is not that any one theory I have come up with (or others) is THE explanation for things that aren’t explained, but that there are possible explanations and Star Wars has a habit of not clearly explaining every turn and point in favor of the drama of the moment. From just the canon sources (regarding Maul and the Grand Inquisitor), there appears to be some dark force power that they can tap into to remain alive after otherwise deadly injuries. We have several characters run through with a lightsaber (or cut in half) and only Qui-gon dies. No explanation. But in each of those instances, what we see works to forward the drama. Lucas is the one who insisted that Filoni bring back Maul. He was cut in half, that is far worse than being run through. Though you could argue that the saber didn’t touch any part for very long and didn’t do as much damage. But Qui-gon was run through almost as fast and died. The Grand Inquisitor and Reva are run through slowly and both survive. Why? How? The force is the most likely reason. Do we really need all the details? No. Star Wars isn’t big on such expositions. Especially the PT. And this series is very tied to the PT.

The problem here is, that it is the hallmark of bad/lazy writing to just say “Somehow Palpatine returned!”, or “Somehow Reva survived!”. It leaves it up to the viewer to make sense of a nonsensical situation. The fact that Lucas did it too with Darth Maul doesn’t suddenly make it good writing. Additionally, having characters continually survive what should be lethal injuries lowers the stakes, because apparently any character can just be killed or survive based on the writer’s whims rather than pre-established rules of the universe. Finally even if Reva is to survive (again!), the situation is made much worse by the fact, that she walks away virtually unscathed from what should at the very least be a debilitating wound. Whatever you might say about Maul surviving being cut in half, he was left with consequences. It took him a long time to recuperate, and he had no legs.

Virtually unscathed? I suggest you watch it again.

cap said:

RogueLeader said:

The Chosen One thing is something is wish George never explicitly answered.

George’s answer may have been “Word of God” at one point, but it has since been decanonized.

He said Anakin was the Chosen One, and if you only look at Lucas’s films that makes sense.

But the only thing Anakin did to fulfill that role was kill the Emperor, and since TROS revealed that he did not actually kill the Emperor, he can’t be the Chosen One. It must be Rey.

Nope. Anakin is the Chosen One. Anakin’s dialog in TROS proves that. “Bring blance Rey, as I did”. So Anakin brought balance as prophesied. Rey is a new person for a new task. The Sith acolytes have resurrected Palpatine and she is there to set that right. Anakin’s role was not negated or rewritten. Palpatine died in ROTJ (he said so himself) and has been brought back to cause trouble again. Anakin killed Palpatine in ROTJ and Rey has to kill him again in TROS.