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yotsuya

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Post
#1491584
Topic
The Kenobi <s>Movie</s> Show (Spoilers)
Time

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

cap said:

yotsuya said:

cap said:

BedeHistory731 said:

cap said:

RogueLeader said:

The Chosen One thing is something is wish George never explicitly answered.

He said Anakin was the Chosen One, and if you only look at Lucas’s films that makes sense.

It’s more just a PT thing, I find. I guess it does work in all movies if killing the Emperor was all he needed to do, it could work. However, the OT never really says much about old Anakin beyond “good pilot,” “good friend,” and “good at being a warrior.” He’s decidedly not a chosen one there.

The concept may not appear in the OT, but it’s not a contradiction either. Obi-Wan once believed that Anakin was the Chosen One. By the time of the OT, he no longer believes that. Why would he mention that he once did?

If one views Luke or Rey as the extension of Anakin’s deeds, then he could still be a proper chosen one.

In what way is Rey an extension of Anakin’s deeds? For that matter how is Luke an extension of Anakin’s deeds, unless you mean the deed of f*cking Padme?

Also, nothing about the prophecy says that balance had to be permanent.

Is it even temporary? Anakin’s act of personal redemption changes very little as far as anyone else is concerned. Sidious is still alive. The Sith plan is still in motion. The de-Sidioused Empire is on its way out, but the First Order will take its place, and the Exegol fleet will be ready by the time the First Order falls. In the big picture, what has Anakin actually accomplished?

What did we accomplish in WWI and the Treaty of Versailles when 20 years later we had WWII? Art imitating life.

And it is quite clear that Palpatine wasn’t really back. He was knocked out of power and for an unknow period of time, was had no influence on the Galaxy. Even if the transfer was immediate (I do not think so myself), his political power was lost and his hold on the Dark Side of the Force was broken. Anakin restored the balance of the force, regardless of what Palpatine and his Sith disciples were up to. It took 30 years for him to claw his way back and even then he did not have the power he once did. Some readings of the ST make it sound like nothing had changed when it is quite clear that everything had changed and they were fighting to prevent Palpatine from gaining power again. It took Palpatine more than 13 years of manipulation and trickery to become Emperor the first time and the events of the PT take place over just a year and there is no way he could undo the past 30 years of freedom in that short of time. Nor could the First Order.

In the ST, the First Order, Kylo Ren, and Palpatine are a scary monster trying to topple a 30 year old Republic from the outside. In the PT, you have a skilled political manipulator working from within an 1000 year old corrupted republic and he is able to use the system to gain and keep the power he craved. He cannot get that back in any easy way in the PT. Not possible. His plan is victory by intimidation (put me back in power or I will destroy your worlds) and Rey stops him before that plan can even start. So the ST is not a rehash of the OT. The situation is totally different and the stakes are different.

Palpatine died and Anakin balanced the Force. That was true in ROTJ and it remains true in TROS. Palpatine came back and Rey destroys Palpatine utterly and balances the Force again. I found this to be a very fitting thing to happen since Lucas’s inspiration for Star Wars was Flash Gordon and Ming kept coming back when you thought he was dead. Palpatine coming back once is a nice tribute to that origin and made a great story.

Losing control of the Empire was a minor inconvenience for Sidious, and it had more to do with the rebels blowing up the Death Star than with Anakin throwing Sidious down that shaft, which ultimately accomplished nothing. Sidious could have shown up and controlled what was left of the Empire, but the Empire had been sufficiently weakened that the First Order and secret control were the better way to go.

As we see, it is more than a minor inconvenience for him. It leads to his total annihilation. The films don’t indicate when Palpatine came to life again. My guess has been that something to do with Grogu is going to prove to be a key to his return. Though I see that in the current EU (which is very similar to the Legends EU) he finds a host body almost immediately. Still he died and was able to preserve his essence and transfer to a different body. His plans for the Final Order were delayed and his power in the galaxy evaporated, except on the outer rim where the First Order came together from the remnants of his Empire. So his death in the shaft did serve a purpose as it gave the galaxy 30 years of freedom which ultimately led to the destruction of the Final Order fleet and to Sidious himself. Sideous had not perfected the creation of a host body so there is no way he could show up to do anything and had to find a suitable stand in, which was Snoke. So Anakin’s actions in ROTJ were crucial to Palpatine’s eventual total demise.

Anakin brought balance to the force for long enough that Rey was born and could put it in balance for a longer term. I would say from the saga that this is because Anakin was not trained the right way (which would have required a more unconventional teacher like Qui-gon) which led to his fall. And his actions in destroying the Emperor did not lead to Palpatine’s total destruction. As the Jedi rose again, so did the Sith. After ROTJ, the PT Jedi are gone (Rey is learning from the original texts, not Luke or Yoda) and the Sith are gone. Full balance, which Anakin was unable to achieve due to his fall to the Dark Side, was achieved. But without Anakin’s sacrifice and Palpatine’s fall, the galaxy would not have had the time for a new chosen one to be born and ready. So Rey finished what Anakin started.

Palpatine was never truly gone. His physical body was destroyed, but his spirit endured and almost instantly inhabited a clone body. Hence, Anakin never restored balance, since the prophesy stated the Chosen One would bring balance to the Force by destroying the Sith. Evidently he failed to do that. It also seems evident to me, that a millenia old prophesy would not pertain to just a few decades of peace or lack of activity from the Sith, especially one that already existed when the Sith were in hiding. TROS wanted to have its cake and eat it. Hence, having Anakin say “Restore balance like I did”. However, the reality is, that Anakin is just not the Chosen One, if you accept the narrative of TROS (which I don’t, since it’s a pretty awful film imo), and Rey restored balance, and thus is the Chosen One (if Palps is truly dead this time).

What I consider Anakin to have done in ROTJ is to break the Sith hold on the Force and release the Jedi access to the Force that had been suppressed (as noted in the dialog in the PT). And we are never given the full text of the prophesy and Yoda says it may have been misinterpreted. The prophesy was about bringing balance to the force, not destroying the Sith. That is something Kenobi said that may or may not be in the prophesy. Palpatine went from the center of the galaxy (in terms of influence and politics) to a denizen of the rim where his power and influence were limited. And Palaptine’s voyage to find a body to inhabit was not instantaneous. It took time and he was not at full power the moment he was in the body. He also ended up being trapped in a body that was not mobile. And the Force includes the physical form. A being separated from their physical form is less so Palpatine is not as strong as he was before. Not until he inhabits a body that is sound and in tune with the Force. That is his goal in TROS, to take over Rey’s body. He fails so he has never gotten his full strength back. His existence never erases Anakin balancing the force. He creates Snoke and turns Ben into Kylo Ren. That creates the new imbalance that results in Rey being a new Chosen One.

Post
#1491560
Topic
The Kenobi <s>Movie</s> Show (Spoilers)
Time

cap said:

yotsuya said:

cap said:

BedeHistory731 said:

cap said:

RogueLeader said:

The Chosen One thing is something is wish George never explicitly answered.

He said Anakin was the Chosen One, and if you only look at Lucas’s films that makes sense.

It’s more just a PT thing, I find. I guess it does work in all movies if killing the Emperor was all he needed to do, it could work. However, the OT never really says much about old Anakin beyond “good pilot,” “good friend,” and “good at being a warrior.” He’s decidedly not a chosen one there.

The concept may not appear in the OT, but it’s not a contradiction either. Obi-Wan once believed that Anakin was the Chosen One. By the time of the OT, he no longer believes that. Why would he mention that he once did?

If one views Luke or Rey as the extension of Anakin’s deeds, then he could still be a proper chosen one.

In what way is Rey an extension of Anakin’s deeds? For that matter how is Luke an extension of Anakin’s deeds, unless you mean the deed of f*cking Padme?

Also, nothing about the prophecy says that balance had to be permanent.

Is it even temporary? Anakin’s act of personal redemption changes very little as far as anyone else is concerned. Sidious is still alive. The Sith plan is still in motion. The de-Sidioused Empire is on its way out, but the First Order will take its place, and the Exegol fleet will be ready by the time the First Order falls. In the big picture, what has Anakin actually accomplished?

What did we accomplish in WWI and the Treaty of Versailles when 20 years later we had WWII? Art imitating life.

And it is quite clear that Palpatine wasn’t really back. He was knocked out of power and for an unknow period of time, was had no influence on the Galaxy. Even if the transfer was immediate (I do not think so myself), his political power was lost and his hold on the Dark Side of the Force was broken. Anakin restored the balance of the force, regardless of what Palpatine and his Sith disciples were up to. It took 30 years for him to claw his way back and even then he did not have the power he once did. Some readings of the ST make it sound like nothing had changed when it is quite clear that everything had changed and they were fighting to prevent Palpatine from gaining power again. It took Palpatine more than 13 years of manipulation and trickery to become Emperor the first time and the events of the PT take place over just a year and there is no way he could undo the past 30 years of freedom in that short of time. Nor could the First Order.

In the ST, the First Order, Kylo Ren, and Palpatine are a scary monster trying to topple a 30 year old Republic from the outside. In the PT, you have a skilled political manipulator working from within an 1000 year old corrupted republic and he is able to use the system to gain and keep the power he craved. He cannot get that back in any easy way in the PT. Not possible. His plan is victory by intimidation (put me back in power or I will destroy your worlds) and Rey stops him before that plan can even start. So the ST is not a rehash of the OT. The situation is totally different and the stakes are different.

Palpatine died and Anakin balanced the Force. That was true in ROTJ and it remains true in TROS. Palpatine came back and Rey destroys Palpatine utterly and balances the Force again. I found this to be a very fitting thing to happen since Lucas’s inspiration for Star Wars was Flash Gordon and Ming kept coming back when you thought he was dead. Palpatine coming back once is a nice tribute to that origin and made a great story.

Losing control of the Empire was a minor inconvenience for Sidious, and it had more to do with the rebels blowing up the Death Star than with Anakin throwing Sidious down that shaft, which ultimately accomplished nothing. Sidious could have shown up and controlled what was left of the Empire, but the Empire had been sufficiently weakened that the First Order and secret control were the better way to go.

As we see, it is more than a minor inconvenience for him. It leads to his total annihilation. The films don’t indicate when Palpatine came to life again. My guess has been that something to do with Grogu is going to prove to be a key to his return. Though I see that in the current EU (which is very similar to the Legends EU) he finds a host body almost immediately. Still he died and was able to preserve his essence and transfer to a different body. His plans for the Final Order were delayed and his power in the galaxy evaporated, except on the outer rim where the First Order came together from the remnants of his Empire. So his death in the shaft did serve a purpose as it gave the galaxy 30 years of freedom which ultimately led to the destruction of the Final Order fleet and to Sidious himself. Sideous had not perfected the creation of a host body so there is no way he could show up to do anything and had to find a suitable stand in, which was Snoke. So Anakin’s actions in ROTJ were crucial to Palpatine’s eventual total demise.

Anakin brought balance to the force for long enough that Rey was born and could put it in balance for a longer term. I would say from the saga that this is because Anakin was not trained the right way (which would have required a more unconventional teacher like Qui-gon) which led to his fall. And his actions in destroying the Emperor did not lead to Palpatine’s total destruction. As the Jedi rose again, so did the Sith. After ROTJ, the PT Jedi are gone (Rey is learning from the original texts, not Luke or Yoda) and the Sith are gone. Full balance, which Anakin was unable to achieve due to his fall to the Dark Side, was achieved. But without Anakin’s sacrifice and Palpatine’s fall, the galaxy would not have had the time for a new chosen one to be born and ready. So Rey finished what Anakin started.

Post
#1491555
Topic
Did G. Lucas ever intend to portray the Jedi as a flawed institution in the prequels? Or was it added later in the EU?
Time

Here is my take on the PT Jedi.

They have taken the events of the past and built a dogma on it that is skewed. To avoid the Dark Side they have forbidden attachments. Rather than teach their students about the Dark Side and how to avoid its temptations, they seem to be practicing avoidance. It relates to other things where in the desire to avoid something those who fear it just say avoid it when in reality what you need to avoid it is knowledge and skills to help avoid it. In the PT this comes down to Qui-gon vs. the Jedi Counsel. The Jedi Counsel want to avoid any hint of the Dark Side. Anakin has some fear. Rather than address his fear, they do not want to train him. Qui-gon sees no such obstacle and is willing to train him. What Lucas told Filoni is that the Qui-gon/Maul duel in TPM was a duel for the fate of Anakin. Williams called the music Duel of the Fates for that reason. Had Qui-gon won, Anakin would have been taught differently and would have had the tools to deal with his fear and attachments. Instead he got Obi-wan who went along with the typical Jedi Counsel methods. Obi-wan blames himself and thinks Yoda could have done better, but Yoda was on the counsel and I don’t think he would have taught what Anakin needed. I don’t think those on the counsel really understood him, just like they didn’t understand Qui-gon.

So the Jedi had gotten off track. Probably recently. Probably in Yoda’s life. Mace feels like the face of what is wrong with the Jedi. How he treats Anakin feels in the story like he is driving Anakin to the Dark Side.

Plus there is Palpatine. He is in constant contact with all these Jedi, younglings to masters, and they are unable to see that he is the Sith Master. Their ability to access the force is weakened. So the PT Jedi are not the Jedi they once were. They are not the Jedi they should be. How much is Palpatine’s direct interference and how much is due to how powerful he is I cannot say. But his influence of these events is not insignificant.

And then the Jedi get embroiled in the Clone War (in ANH Kenobi calls it The Clone Wars, plural). They go from being ambassadors and guardians of peace and justice to warriors. They take on additional titles like General. Even the Padawan outrank the clone troopers.

Now, I’ve heard some complain about the concept of gray Jedi. But now in canon we have one in Rey. A gray Jedi is a Jedi that does not fear or ignore the dark side. This is a Jedi in balance with the force. This is the origin of the Jedi before the rise of the Sith. This is not a Jedi that would necessarily deliberately tap into the dark side and flirt with its temptations, but it is a Jedi who knows how to navigate the full force. Remember, Filoni worked closely with Lucas and many things he did in Clone Wars or Rebels was based on what he learned from Lucas. We get the father son and daughter and Bendu. The father and Bendu are both in balance where the son is the dark side and the daughter is the light side. Then we have the Jedi Temple guards. And while the light saber colors have accidental origins, they have come to have meaning. Red means they are on the Dark Side. Blue are for noble warriors. Green are for those wise in the Force. Purple is for those who are firmly on the light side. Yellow is for those in balance. White is for those who have more than one role. We see each of these colors in the canon sources. The Jedi Temple guards and Rey have yellow. Only Mace, the most extreme Jedi and the harshest on Anakin, has purple. Most are blue or green. Qui-gon, Luke, and Yoda are green. Ahsoka’s sabers turn white after she leaves the Jedi order.

There are some things that have come out of all this that Lucas has said he doesn’t like, but he hasn’t done anything to negate them. In fact as the universe expands, these things just get more firmly established. He has said that the Jedi light and dark is not like the eastern concept of yin/yang, but yet when it is described, it really is. The best I can see is that the world of Star Wars is very influenced by eastern philosophy, but it isn’t quite the same.

So I feel that Luke’s assessment of the PT Jedi in The Last Jedi was spot on, if a bit harsh. The PT Jedi found themselves weakened in the force and called on to fill more warrior roles than their typical guardian one. Rather than deal with the issues, they pulled inward and tried to pretend that nothing had changed (something Luke labels hubris). Luke learned the old Jedi way from Kenobi and Yoda and he feels that this way led to Ben’s fall like it did Anakin’s fall. Luke is a bit harsh due to his own history, but the PT really does show the hubris of the Jedi. They fear to let it be known that their ability to access the force is diminished. So it really is hypocritical of them to refuse to train Anakin because he has a bit of fear. But this is all likely caused by Palpatine and his machinations. He has twisted some Jedi into following him (definitely Dooku and possibly Syfo Dias and later Anakin). So some of their issues might not be there fault, but I think it is certain that the way the Jedi are portrayed in the PT are not the glorious Jedi of the past. They are flawed and no longer as powerful as they once were.

Most of my opinion stems from the PT films themselves. I have not read the books or explored the PT era EU. I have not read the comics. I have just watched the films and TV series. The flaws are not really covered in the Clone Wars, only Anakin’s power and arrogance and weaknesses. But the films to me make it very clear that the Jedi are not what they once were and are a problem. They need a refresh. I’m sure it could have been done without wiping them out, but they do get wiped out and then so do the Sith. Imperfectly in ROTJ and then more completely in TROS.

Post
#1491392
Topic
The Kenobi <s>Movie</s> Show (Spoilers)
Time

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

MalaStrana#2 said:

yotsuya said:
I suggest you watch it again.

Don’t be so cruel.

If you don’t rewatch it how can you be sure what you caught or missed? I’ve rewatched several things that I thought were really bad to be sure my opinion didn’t change. In this case it is obvious he missed how injured she is. I did the first time I watched it. The second time it was quite obvious.

I watched it more than once. She looks disheveled, but easily fights off Owen and Beru (aside from one punch on her “wound”), which makes here more furious. She has no trouble running after Luke in a fury. She clearly does not appear grievously injured. She does not significantly tire. She’s not limping, disoriented or showing clear indications of being in serious pain outside of a single moment when Owen hits her, but is not able to slow her down one bit.

It’s like we didn’t watch the same thing. Because she was clearly weak and having difficulty. She collapses after bringing Luke back. Where before none of these things would have given her any difficulty at all. So I don’t know what you were seeing, but you missed it all.

Post
#1491375
Topic
The Kenobi <s>Movie</s> Show (Spoilers)
Time

MalaStrana#2 said:

yotsuya said:
I suggest you watch it again.

Don’t be so cruel.

If you don’t rewatch it how can you be sure what you caught or missed? I’ve rewatched several things that I thought were really bad to be sure my opinion didn’t change. In this case it is obvious he missed how injured she is. I did the first time I watched it. The second time it was quite obvious.

Post
#1491374
Topic
The Kenobi <s>Movie</s> Show (Spoilers)
Time

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

See, I think some are missing the point. My point is not that any one theory I have come up with (or others) is THE explanation for things that aren’t explained, but that there are possible explanations and Star Wars has a habit of not clearly explaining every turn and point in favor of the drama of the moment. From just the canon sources (regarding Maul and the Grand Inquisitor), there appears to be some dark force power that they can tap into to remain alive after otherwise deadly injuries. We have several characters run through with a lightsaber (or cut in half) and only Qui-gon dies. No explanation. But in each of those instances, what we see works to forward the drama. Lucas is the one who insisted that Filoni bring back Maul. He was cut in half, that is far worse than being run through. Though you could argue that the saber didn’t touch any part for very long and didn’t do as much damage. But Qui-gon was run through almost as fast and died. The Grand Inquisitor and Reva are run through slowly and both survive. Why? How? The force is the most likely reason. Do we really need all the details? No. Star Wars isn’t big on such expositions. Especially the PT. And this series is very tied to the PT.

The problem here is, that it is the hallmark of bad/lazy writing to just say “Somehow Palpatine returned!”, or “Somehow Reva survived!”. It leaves it up to the viewer to make sense of a nonsensical situation. The fact that Lucas did it too with Darth Maul doesn’t suddenly make it good writing. Additionally, having characters continually survive what should be lethal injuries lowers the stakes, because apparently any character can just be killed or survive based on the writer’s whims rather than pre-established rules of the universe. Finally even if Reva is to survive (again!), the situation is made much worse by the fact, that she walks away virtually unscathed from what should at the very least be a debilitating wound. Whatever you might say about Maul surviving being cut in half, he was left with consequences. It took him a long time to recuperate, and he had no legs.

Virtually unscathed? I suggest you watch it again.

She’s a bit sore and sensitive to the touch, like she has a stomach cramp, so yeah, virtually unscathed.

It’s pretty obvious she needs medical attention and is on the verge of collapse and sheer willpower is what is keeping her going. Virtually unscathed is a false description.

Post
#1491369
Topic
The Kenobi <s>Movie</s> Show (Spoilers)
Time

cap said:

BedeHistory731 said:

cap said:

RogueLeader said:

The Chosen One thing is something is wish George never explicitly answered.

He said Anakin was the Chosen One, and if you only look at Lucas’s films that makes sense.

It’s more just a PT thing, I find. I guess it does work in all movies if killing the Emperor was all he needed to do, it could work. However, the OT never really says much about old Anakin beyond “good pilot,” “good friend,” and “good at being a warrior.” He’s decidedly not a chosen one there.

The concept may not appear in the OT, but it’s not a contradiction either. Obi-Wan once believed that Anakin was the Chosen One. By the time of the OT, he no longer believes that. Why would he mention that he once did?

If one views Luke or Rey as the extension of Anakin’s deeds, then he could still be a proper chosen one.

In what way is Rey an extension of Anakin’s deeds? For that matter how is Luke an extension of Anakin’s deeds, unless you mean the deed of f*cking Padme?

Also, nothing about the prophecy says that balance had to be permanent.

Is it even temporary? Anakin’s act of personal redemption changes very little as far as anyone else is concerned. Sidious is still alive. The Sith plan is still in motion. The de-Sidioused Empire is on its way out, but the First Order will take its place, and the Exegol fleet will be ready by the time the First Order falls. In the big picture, what has Anakin actually accomplished?

What did we accomplish in WWI and the Treaty of Versailles when 20 years later we had WWII? Art imitating life.

And it is quite clear that Palpatine wasn’t really back. He was knocked out of power and for an unknow period of time, was had no influence on the Galaxy. Even if the transfer was immediate (I do not think so myself), his political power was lost and his hold on the Dark Side of the Force was broken. Anakin restored the balance of the force, regardless of what Palpatine and his Sith disciples were up to. It took 30 years for him to claw his way back and even then he did not have the power he once did. Some readings of the ST make it sound like nothing had changed when it is quite clear that everything had changed and they were fighting to prevent Palpatine from gaining power again. It took Palpatine more than 13 years of manipulation and trickery to become Emperor the first time and the events of the PT take place over just a year and there is no way he could undo the past 30 years of freedom in that short of time. Nor could the First Order.

In the ST, the First Order, Kylo Ren, and Palpatine are a scary monster trying to topple a 30 year old Republic from the outside. In the PT, you have a skilled political manipulator working from within an 1000 year old corrupted republic and he is able to use the system to gain and keep the power he craved. He cannot get that back in any easy way in the PT. Not possible. His plan is victory by intimidation (put me back in power or I will destroy your worlds) and Rey stops him before that plan can even start. So the ST is not a rehash of the OT. The situation is totally different and the stakes are different.

Palpatine died and Anakin balanced the Force. That was true in ROTJ and it remains true in TROS. Palpatine came back and Rey destroys Palpatine utterly and balances the Force again. I found this to be a very fitting thing to happen since Lucas’s inspiration for Star Wars was Flash Gordon and Ming kept coming back when you thought he was dead. Palpatine coming back once is a nice tribute to that origin and made a great story.

Post
#1491362
Topic
The Kenobi <s>Movie</s> Show (Spoilers)
Time

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

See, I think some are missing the point. My point is not that any one theory I have come up with (or others) is THE explanation for things that aren’t explained, but that there are possible explanations and Star Wars has a habit of not clearly explaining every turn and point in favor of the drama of the moment. From just the canon sources (regarding Maul and the Grand Inquisitor), there appears to be some dark force power that they can tap into to remain alive after otherwise deadly injuries. We have several characters run through with a lightsaber (or cut in half) and only Qui-gon dies. No explanation. But in each of those instances, what we see works to forward the drama. Lucas is the one who insisted that Filoni bring back Maul. He was cut in half, that is far worse than being run through. Though you could argue that the saber didn’t touch any part for very long and didn’t do as much damage. But Qui-gon was run through almost as fast and died. The Grand Inquisitor and Reva are run through slowly and both survive. Why? How? The force is the most likely reason. Do we really need all the details? No. Star Wars isn’t big on such expositions. Especially the PT. And this series is very tied to the PT.

The problem here is, that it is the hallmark of bad/lazy writing to just say “Somehow Palpatine returned!”, or “Somehow Reva survived!”. It leaves it up to the viewer to make sense of a nonsensical situation. The fact that Lucas did it too with Darth Maul doesn’t suddenly make it good writing. Additionally, having characters continually survive what should be lethal injuries lowers the stakes, because apparently any character can just be killed or survive based on the writer’s whims rather than pre-established rules of the universe. Finally even if Reva is to survive (again!), the situation is made much worse by the fact, that she walks away virtually unscathed from what should at the very least be a debilitating wound. Whatever you might say about Maul surviving being cut in half, he was left with consequences. It took him a long time to recuperate, and he had no legs.

Virtually unscathed? I suggest you watch it again.

Post
#1491330
Topic
The Kenobi <s>Movie</s> Show (Spoilers)
Time

cap said:

RogueLeader said:

The Chosen One thing is something is wish George never explicitly answered.

George’s answer may have been “Word of God” at one point, but it has since been decanonized.

He said Anakin was the Chosen One, and if you only look at Lucas’s films that makes sense.

But the only thing Anakin did to fulfill that role was kill the Emperor, and since TROS revealed that he did not actually kill the Emperor, he can’t be the Chosen One. It must be Rey.

Nope. Anakin is the Chosen One. Anakin’s dialog in TROS proves that. “Bring blance Rey, as I did”. So Anakin brought balance as prophesied. Rey is a new person for a new task. The Sith acolytes have resurrected Palpatine and she is there to set that right. Anakin’s role was not negated or rewritten. Palpatine died in ROTJ (he said so himself) and has been brought back to cause trouble again. Anakin killed Palpatine in ROTJ and Rey has to kill him again in TROS.

Post
#1491327
Topic
Original Trilogy vs Kenobi: inconsistencies and stretches between | Plus in-series issues
Time

Well, the thing is that Lucas created quite a few issues between the OT and PT that were never dealt with until this series.

Padme dies and Leia was already taken away from her and yet she has memories of her mother. When Kenobi is around her in this series, she constantly reminds him if Padme. And there are several examples where Leia is obviously using the force to read minds and she could easily have seen Kenobi’s memories of her mother. She could also have seen some memories from bail as well.

Leia’s powers are subtle and are never manifested. Vader doesn’t sense her power. Kenobi doesn’t sense her power. Luke doesn’t sense her power. Yoda says there is another, another Skykwalker and Kenobi says it is her. So only Yoda picked up on it. Even the inquisitors didn’t pick up on it. So her power must also provide some cloaking. She isn’t a skilled pilot or mechanic like her brother and father. She is a skilled diplomat and politician like her mother. So no one notices she has great power and how it does manifest itself aids her in what she is good at.

Why would Kenobi make up the story about Vader betraying and murdering Anakin? Either he is hiding things from Luke, or now, he is using Vader’s own explanation. But there is no need to tell Luke where it came from. He tells Luke that certain things can be true from a certain point of view. Not just this. So he used it as a teaching moment.

And for the most part, this series is a few days where a few people call him Obi-wan again, but mostly they call him Ben. So he is exaggerating a bit when he says he hasn’t used that name since before Luke was born. Even the original dialog provides some leeway. And it isn’t like he stopped being called Obi-wan before Luke was actually born even without this series. The Jedi were destroyed before Luke was born and he is likely marking that as when he ceased being called obi-wan, even if that is not quite true per Ep III. This series doesn’t really change that. It just reveals a few people did call him that in a brief episodes.

One of the things about stories is that you have to apply a dose of reality to them. Taking every single quote as 100% fact does not reflect how most people talk. Most conversations have short cuts, incomplete statements, hyperbole, and don’t reflect the absolute truth. It is rare that someone can accurately relate the specific time since an event, like Sheldon Cooper, C-3PI, Mr. Spock, or Data constantly do. Most just throw out something that is roughly correct and writers write with that in mind. In fact writers are often more exact that real people ever are. Someone might throw out that something happened seven years ago in a conversation, but in reality it was 9 years ago. Times might be rounded up or down. And that is just the vagueness of time in conversations. Taking every word of dialog at face value is not a good way of checking realistic continuity (unless you have one of those very exact characters).

And Star Wars has always put the drama first. Things are not always described in great detail. The vagueness helps keep the hood on the magic behind the scenes. That is why Midichlorians were so objectionable - they opened the hood a bit and reduced the magic of the story telling.

So while there may be a few new quirks to the storyline because of this series, I think this series addressed most things well and answered more questions that it made. And any that it made are minor.

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#1491318
Topic
The Kenobi <s>Movie</s> Show (Spoilers)
Time

See, I think some are missing the point. My point is not that any one theory I have come up with (or others) is THE explanation for things that aren’t explained, but that there are possible explanations and Star Wars has a habit of not clearly explaining every turn and point in favor of the drama of the moment. From just the canon sources (regarding Maul and the Grand Inquisitor), there appears to be some dark force power that they can tap into to remain alive after otherwise deadly injuries. We have several characters run through with a lightsaber (or cut in half) and only Qui-gon dies. No explanation. But in each of those instances, what we see works to forward the drama. Lucas is the one who insisted that Filoni bring back Maul. He was cut in half, that is far worse than being run through. Though you could argue that the saber didn’t touch any part for very long and didn’t do as much damage. But Qui-gon was run through almost as fast and died. The Grand Inquisitor and Reva are run through slowly and both survive. Why? How? The force is the most likely reason. Do we really need all the details? No. Star Wars isn’t big on such expositions. Especially the PT. And this series is very tied to the PT.

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#1490959
Topic
The Kenobi <s>Movie</s> Show (Spoilers)
Time

Fan_edit_fan said:

BedeHistory731 said:

Fan_edit_fan said:

yotsuya said:

adywan said:

I find it so hard to understand how people can defend the writing on this series and say that it’s well made. In episodes 5 & 6 they used the exact same scenario. What’s worse is that, if you watch these two episodes one after another, this blatant repeating happens within about 15 minutes.

Episode 5: They are in danger with a technical problem stopping them from being able to escape. Obi-Wan decides to sacrifice himself so that the others can escape because he knows it’s him that Vader wants, not them. Obi-Wan goes to Haja and asks him to take care of Leia. Roka tries to talk him out of it but Obi-Wan leaves.

Approx 15 minutes later…

Episode 6: They are in danger with a technical problem stopping them from being able to escape. Obi-Wan decides to sacrifice himself so that the others can escape because he knows it’s him that Vader wants, not them. Obi-Wan goes to Haja and asks him to take care of Leia. Roka tries to talk him out of it but Obi-Wan leaves.

And i bet Qui-Gon is mighty pissed because , in this show, you can get skewered with a lightsaber in the stomach and through the spine and live.

And then there is the final Obi/ Vader fight. It’s set out right from the start of that duel that Obi_wan is prepared to kill vader. “Have you come to destroy me Obi_wan?”. “I will do what i must”. But then lets him live, even after he knows that the person who was once his friend has gone and all that is left is a monster. I know Vader has to survive because of ANH, but doing it this way is ridiculous.

Your summary is over simplistic. I’m sure there are similarities, but it is not the exact same situation. For one thing, the first time Kenobi is just going to delay and fully intends to return (but you never know). The second time he is leaving and knows he won’t rejoin them. The reaction of those around him is different and the story plays out different. There is a ghost of a similarity between the two incidents and you are focusing on that rather than the whole picture.

Also, getting stabbed in the gut can lead to instant death or a recoverable injury depending on where it was and how it was delivered. Qui-gon was stabbed (very clearly) through the middle of his gut. Severing his main artery and vein and possibly severing his spine and damaging the organs in front. He was human after all. We don’t see where Reva gets stabbed. In the gut, but just how is not shown. Same with the grand inquisitor (but he is not human so we don’t know what internal damage he might have sustained). Maul is cut in half, but other than an instant spray of blood, there is no blood. So whatever was cut was sealed. So he could have lived (with some help). He also isn’t human so we don’t know his internal organ arrangement to know what was cut off. Reva is clearly still wounded when she gets to Tatooine. So all the wounds are not the same so expecting the same outcome is unrealistic.

I found the series to be well written with care given to filling in the gaps between the PT and OT. It fixed more than it broke and put a new spin on certain events. I found the acting to be superb, the sets to be what I’d expect, the backgrounds fitting, and everything assembled into a nicely finished series. I don’t know that I would change a thing about it, though I wouldn’t mind seeing a film edit of it. Something a little faster paced.

Good grief man…every time.

No need to rag on a guy for providing justifications. I’ve found his posts insightful, even if I disagree at times.

They want to love every bit of the product and combat any actual justified criticisms…stretching logic further. Not “ragging” on em…just blows me away how they can’t understand the flaws. It’s like constantly saying “No it’s super smart, you just don’t get it”.

We differ in opinion on what is a problem. When I see one I note it. My reviews of BOBF episodes tend to agree that they they goofed up on the pacing of the episodes. They missed a huge opportunity to have Daniel Logan and some young Boba Fett to round out the character. A huge miss. Loved the Mando episode, but it was totally out of place in a series on Boba Fett. I just don’t see the same kind of issues with Kenobi. I loved it. Perhaps a tiny bit less than Mando, but not too far off. But I seriously don’t see any writing issues or set issues or any production issues at all. The worst I’d dock it for is some scenes have washed out colors, but that is a creative choice, not a quality issue.

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#1490956
Topic
The Kenobi <s>Movie</s> Show (Spoilers)
Time

adywan said:

yotsuya said:

Your summary is over simplistic. I’m sure there are similarities, but it is not the exact same situation. For one thing, the first time Kenobi is just going to delay and fully intends to return (but you never know). The second time he is leaving and knows he won’t rejoin them. The reaction of those around him is different and the story plays out different. There is a ghost of a similarity between the two incidents and you are focusing on that rather than the whole picture.

It’s not over simplistic at all. They’re the exact same senario. But not once does he state or it’s even hinted at that he will rejoin them during the first time or second. The only thing even mentioned about him returning was the promise to leia that she will see him again. But the fact that they used the same 3 character to have the same interaction in the two episodes make it more than just “similarities”

yotsuya said:

Also, getting stabbed in the gut can lead to instant death or a recoverable injury depending on where it was and how it was delivered. Qui-gon was stabbed (very clearly) through the middle of his gut. Severing his main artery and vein and possibly severing his spine and damaging the organs in front. He was human after all. We don’t see where Reva gets stabbed. In the gut, but just how is not shown. Same with the grand inquisitor (but he is not human so we don’t know what internal damage he might have sustained). Maul is cut in half, but other than an instant spray of blood, there is no blood. So whatever was cut was sealed. So he could have lived (with some help). He also isn’t human so we don’t know his internal organ arrangement to know what was cut off. Reva is clearly still wounded when she gets to Tatooine. So all the wounds are not the same so expecting the same outcome is unrealistic.

So, a weapon that we see generates so much heat that, when trust into a steel door, instantly starts turning it into molten metal, can get thrust into a human characters body for the length of time that Vader thrust it into Reva ( and we do see where he stabs her) and not kill her? her innards would be boiled to hell. It doesn’t matter that it wasn’t through her spine, it was still right next to it and, in the time the sabre is inserted, there would be nothing left. If it had just been a quick thrust in and out , it could have been believable that she was ok. But it’s held in there a long time. And, apart from a little wincing at the beginning of ep6, she seemed perfectly fine when she got to the Lars homestead. Also, you can clearly see that she was stabbed through the chest at an angle, then when we see her on Tatooine, she just has a makeshift bandage around her waist . When characters can just miraculously survive these type of injuries it makes it all a joke. Takes any form of believability out of it.

The angle looks like stomach or spleen to kidney, but not her spine. And they never cover what settings a lightsaber has. Perhaps it has high and low power for different uses. It reportedly had its origins as a cutting tool. And flesh and metal have different heat conductive properties. So I don’t see a problem.

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#1490908
Topic
The Kenobi <s>Movie</s> Show (Spoilers)
Time

adywan said:

I find it so hard to understand how people can defend the writing on this series and say that it’s well made. In episodes 5 & 6 they used the exact same scenario. What’s worse is that, if you watch these two episodes one after another, this blatant repeating happens within about 15 minutes.

Episode 5: They are in danger with a technical problem stopping them from being able to escape. Obi-Wan decides to sacrifice himself so that the others can escape because he knows it’s him that Vader wants, not them. Obi-Wan goes to Haja and asks him to take care of Leia. Roka tries to talk him out of it but Obi-Wan leaves.

Approx 15 minutes later…

Episode 6: They are in danger with a technical problem stopping them from being able to escape. Obi-Wan decides to sacrifice himself so that the others can escape because he knows it’s him that Vader wants, not them. Obi-Wan goes to Haja and asks him to take care of Leia. Roka tries to talk him out of it but Obi-Wan leaves.

And i bet Qui-Gon is mighty pissed because , in this show, you can get skewered with a lightsaber in the stomach and through the spine and live.

And then there is the final Obi/ Vader fight. It’s set out right from the start of that duel that Obi_wan is prepared to kill vader. “Have you come to destroy me Obi_wan?”. “I will do what i must”. But then lets him live, even after he knows that the person who was once his friend has gone and all that is left is a monster. I know Vader has to survive because of ANH, but doing it this way is ridiculous.

Your summary is over simplistic. I’m sure there are similarities, but it is not the exact same situation. For one thing, the first time Kenobi is just going to delay and fully intends to return (but you never know). The second time he is leaving and knows he won’t rejoin them. The reaction of those around him is different and the story plays out different. There is a ghost of a similarity between the two incidents and you are focusing on that rather than the whole picture.

Also, getting stabbed in the gut can lead to instant death or a recoverable injury depending on where it was and how it was delivered. Qui-gon was stabbed (very clearly) through the middle of his gut. Severing his main artery and vein and possibly severing his spine and damaging the organs in front. He was human after all. We don’t see where Reva gets stabbed. In the gut, but just how is not shown. Same with the grand inquisitor (but he is not human so we don’t know what internal damage he might have sustained). Maul is cut in half, but other than an instant spray of blood, there is no blood. So whatever was cut was sealed. So he could have lived (with some help). He also isn’t human so we don’t know his internal organ arrangement to know what was cut off. Reva is clearly still wounded when she gets to Tatooine. So all the wounds are not the same so expecting the same outcome is unrealistic.

I found the series to be well written with care given to filling in the gaps between the PT and OT. It fixed more than it broke and put a new spin on certain events. I found the acting to be superb, the sets to be what I’d expect, the backgrounds fitting, and everything assembled into a nicely finished series. I don’t know that I would change a thing about it, though I wouldn’t mind seeing a film edit of it. Something a little faster paced.

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#1490879
Topic
The Kenobi <s>Movie</s> Show (Spoilers)
Time

RogueLeader said:

I know others don’t agree with this, and that’s totally fine, but Cosmonaut Variety Hour summed up my own feelings about the show rather well!

https://youtu.be/QPYpHPC5acg

Well, I agree with him about the best parts, but I don’t agree that the rest was that bad. I totally disagree that this was a series for doing something totally different. These are established characters with established futures and they did an excellent job weaving a tale that fit in the tapestry of the saga. Not an easy task and one that I think they pulled off very well.

And he was very wrong about The Mandelorian. Dave Filoni was involved and it was about a younger member of Yoda’s species with force powers. In the post ROTJ world, running into Luke and Ahsoka was inevitable. That intent was clear in the finale of season 1 and that is the way it played out in season2.

So what I’m seeing is two issues and this series has both. First is what is perceived as an unacceptable alteration to Saga characters/continuity. The other is a lack of new content. So on one hand, this video wants something new to happen in this series. On the other this is dealing with core OT characters and events. So it is getting flack for trying to stick something somewhat new in without it being new and different enough. Its getting a tough reaction from several fan circles while a lot of us and even more critics loved it.

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#1490781
Topic
The Kenobi <s>Movie</s> Show (Spoilers)
Time

Kaweebo said:

yotsuya said:
And the words of Padme may be ringing in his ears, “there is still good in him.” Kenobi tells Luke that he once thought that as well, and this may be that moment. Even though Vader has just said he killed Anakin, Kenobi may not be ready to accept that yet. There are lots of ways to read this that make sense in light of everything else we have in the main Saga films. We don’t have to assume that Kenobi missed the perfect chance to kill him. Killing a being who is just one of many evils in the galaxy won’t change the evil of the emperor. And we don’t know what images of the future Kenobi might have seen that leaving Vader alive is the best option.

You know, this would be great, fantastic stuff if the series bothered to show us any of that. If we got to see Kenobi try to bring Anakin back only to fail. This never actually happened, though. He beat him, said his friend was truly dead, and walked away. Hell, even Obi-Wan hearing the voice of Padme saying that would have indicated it enough but not even that is expressed. And considering this series is made for casual SW fans as well as diehards, something like that would have been warranted if they were trying to get that idea across.

There’s never an any actual moment that lines up with Vader saying Obi-Wan thought there was good in him. It wasn’t shown in RotS and it wasn’t shown here, despite you filling in the blanks for the writers who should have known better. If they had written it in a way that reflected what you wrote, it would have made more sense. But they didn’t, so unfortunately, all of this? Is you writing the script for them.

So what we’re left with is an Obi-Wan who seemed to have every intention to kill Vader, to the point of even landing a blow to his face, internalizing and vocally emphasizing that his friend is gone forever, DEAD, and then deciding to let him live anyway with zero indications of any potential thought to there being good in him still. Not even an attempt to convince him. The writing and directing do not reflect it, so there is zero reason to believe it.

JEDIT: And even then, I still think the confrontation should have ended with Vader escaping rather than Obi-Wan sparing him. It would have absolved Obi-Wan of the responsibility, even if he didn’t intend to kill him. Really, this whole show dropped the ball on that idea in general, tbh.

There are other options and no, this series does not need to explicity address exactly what happened. There are plenty of other instances in the saga where things are not explained in detail and we are left to guess.

What we saw may have been the extent of what Kenobi could muster and he had driven Vader back to a point where he can leave and going back to protect Luke is more important than finishing Vader. So a combination of other priorities and Vader being (at least momentarily) defeated in battle are the most likely reason why Kenobi left him alive.

Expecting Star Wars to spell out every little reason for everything totally ignores how the movies handle things. Most of us don’t question the OT because we first saw it when we were very young. But there is a lot it never explains. Lucas wasn’t a good explainer. What he put in the PT was certainly very subtle hints to things and tie to the core of the story.

So no, nothing I suggested is explicitly mentioned and nor would I expect it to be. I didn’t question that scene at all. What is there to really question. Kenobi faces the being who once was his friend and fights him to a point where he can walk away. Is it any surprise that he walks away? He has been going on the entire time about protecting Luke and Leia. That is his duty. Why would he risk that Vader might rally his strength (like he just did) and defeat him and leave the twins unprotected. Vader is not the only danger Kenobi has to think of. Just because we are not told the inner working of his mind does not mean there is any logical failing of the story. If that were the case there are plenty of larger questions that they fail to answer in the movies. Fans have spent years trying to answer those and some have made it into canon. We went into this knowing that Vader would not die and why Kenobi leaves after that victorious round of combat serves the saga regardless of the reason. So do we really need the reason spelled out in detail in a very un Star Wars fashion?

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#1490726
Topic
The Kenobi <s>Movie</s> Show (Spoilers)
Time

ROTS is about Yoda and Kenobi losing and facing defeat and becoming outcast. We see that it has hit Kenobi hard. This series is about Kenobi finding himself again and once again becoming a legendary Jedi Knight. As Anakin said in ROTS when he had Dooku, killing is not the Jedi way. Kenobi isn’t out to kill Vader, just out to confront him and bring the chase to a close. He has already saved Leia. So he has no purpose there once he has stopped Vader. What is killing him going to do? There is still Palpatine. There are still the inquisitors. And the words of Padme may be ringing in his ears, “there is still good in him.” Kenobi tells Luke that he once thought that as well, and this may be that moment. Even though Vader has just said he killed Anakin, Kenobi may not be ready to accept that yet. There are lots of ways to read this that make sense in light of everything else we have in the main Saga films. We don’t have to assume that Kenobi missed the perfect chance to kill him. Killing a being who is just one of many evils in the galaxy won’t change the evil of the emperor. And we don’t know what images of the future Kenobi might have seen that leaving Vader alive is the best option. We know, having seen the OT, that the best option is for Vader to live for Luke to confront. This moment of mercy by Kenobi leads to the redemption of his friend 13 years later.

I think considering this a plot hole is really disingenuous to what we know of Kenobi and the OT.

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#1490598
Topic
The Kenobi <s>Movie</s> Show (Spoilers)
Time

MalaStrana#2 said:

yotsuya said:

the original film was saved by Lucas getting a lot of input.

It’s called a writing process and putting hard work… of course you don’t reach perfection by writing first drafts that aren’t challenged. Something Lucas himself forgot when he wrote the PT: the core story was there but none of the hard reshape work was put into them. The gap between ANH and TPM lies there. Since at least Lucas is a wonderful storyteller there still is something appealing to those stories though : this is why the gap is also wide between TPM and OWK, this later being the low point of the saga in term of script where nothing is earned and no stakes are developed (I can’t still believe that Reva took Leia to interrogate her while Vader was fighting Ben: wasn’t her point to lure Vader into a trap so why the fuck is she doing that except for lazy screenwriters to remake ANH in the next episode ?).

and for TESB he turned to a very skilled writer.

And yet they drastically changed the first version of the script. Putting lots of work to make a worthy sequel rooted from ANH abs going into new directions.

You seem to discover that you get something of quality through hard work…

Lucas used a different writing process for all the films he did. ANH was several rough drafts, input from friends (Spielberg, Coppola, DePalma, Marcia) and the final draft still was not there. In editing scenes were reworked, dialog changed in dubbing sessions, drama upped. So the script may be good, but it is far from how the final edit turned out. And actually we need to give credit to Lucas himself for excising the anchorhead scenes. He didn’t want to write them but his friends said he needed to introduce his hero sooner. He stuck with his plan of following the droids to tell the story.

Lucas gave his treatment to Leigh Bracket and she produced the first screen play. She died March 18, 1978, a month and a day after finishing the screenplay. So Lawrence Kasdan made the final edits. The Vader is Luke Father line is not in any version of the script so we have no idea at what point Lucas decided on that. If it was early he left it out to keep the story secret, but then the novelization came out 5 weeks before the movie and it was in there. But the other edits, which Bracket started on a typed copy of her screenplay, similarly refined the story from the earliest draft of ANH that resembled the final version (the earlier drafts varied in story content).

Return of the Jedi was just Lucas and Kasdan. Some consider it the least of the three films.

The Phantom Menace just as Lucas with the full credit. I think he spent more time on it because the story feels more polished.

Attack of the Clones has an additional name to the credits, but I consider it the worst written of Lucas’s 6 films.

Revenge of the Sith is back to just Lucas, but it doesn’t have the polish the the other films did. It feels rough and the editing somewhat helps. But due to the story it tells, many consider it the best of the PT. It is my second favorite after TPM.

So we can clearly see when Lucas puts in the time and gets the feedback or has quality help. But no matter help or not, each films went through multiple drafts with significant changes to parts of the story. He has sole credit on 3 of the films, story and screenplay credit on another, and story only on two. So it is a matter of how much assistance he got and from what source and whether or not he took it and whether or not it was a good suggestion.

The writing of a 6 part short TV series probably doesn’t follow the same methods. Just take some of the films that have also had mini-series adaptions. The one I think of is Pride and Prejudice. Colin Firth vs. Keira Knightly. The version Colin was in was a nearly word for word adaption of the book. Slow in places, but very accurate to the story. Keira’s version was a 2 hour film (so about 1/3 the time) and skips over a lot and tells the same story in a more condensed version. Each one is great, but some like one over the other. I prefer Colin’s because it is complete. But if you don’t have 6 hours, Keira’s covers the whole story sussinctly.

Kenobi is similar. I feel they used the longer format to expand the story and dig into the various things they wanted to cover. I’m sure a skilled fan edit can cut it down to 2 hours and have it tell the same story without the bits that slow it down. But saying it isn’t as well written because it goes slower ignores that part of that is the selected 6 part format. I didn’t have any problem with the pacing. I liked it, but as I said, I like the slower longer Colin Firth version of Pride and Prejudice. So no surprise there. Rather than saying it is badly done, I think it is more likely that it is just not to some tastes.

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#1490455
Topic
The Kenobi <s>Movie</s> Show (Spoilers)
Time

Servii said:

“Star Wars was always poorly written” is an argument I really take issue with. If the original film were poorly written, none of us would even be here with our attachment to this franchise.

I think the dialog might be the part that was poorly written. It was full of odd technobabble that has led to several retcons. Like Kessel run in 12 parsecs.

I think the flow of the story was well done. It shows in the script and was improved in the editing room.

The dialog was partly saved because of a lot of redubbing.

and really, if you read Lucas’s writing and editing process, the original film was saved by Lucas getting a lot of input. and for TESB he turned to a very skilled writer. For the PT it was almost all on him and his flaws stand out more.

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#1490084
Topic
The Kenobi <s>Movie</s> Show (Spoilers)
Time

NeverarGreat said:

yotsuya said:

NeverarGreat said:

Omni said:

Guess now we know why Leia’s lightsaber resembles Obi-Wan’s and she named her son Ben 😃

Hey that’s a good connection!

RL, I was reminded of the GOT scene on Tatooine, it felt like I was listening to a Radio Drama because there was literally nothing visible on screen.

Also, another thing that baffled me was why Obi-wan thought his plan to divert Vader’s attention would work, and also why it did.

Like, Obi-wan knew that Vader had a personal shuttle with which to pursue him in alone, and also had the Grand Inquisitor with which to continue pursuit of the refugees. Yet Vader just diverts the entire Star Destroyer to follow Obi-wan and then just leaves it behind and says that he will now follow Obi-wan alone in his ship. Baffling.

Not really baffling. We see Vader do the exact same thing in TESB. He orders his whole fleet to pursue the Falcon into the asteroid field. And at that moment it is faster to have the Star Destroyer go after Kenobi rather than get in a shuttle or Tie fighter. Kenobi knows what motivated Anakin and Vader is even more obsessive. Until corrected by the Emperor.

The difference is that in ESB the Falcon is the only Rebel ship that hasn’t escaped into Hyperspace. Vader really only has one choice:

1: Find the Falcon at all costs and use it as bait for Luke.
2: Try to follow Luke’s X-wing despite not knowing where it went.

Obviously he will go for option 1.

In Kenobi Vader had at least five choices:

1: Send fighters to immediately disable the transport and/or close the distance in a shuttle and board the transport himself. Obi-wan’s plan fails before it begins.
2: Ignore Kenobi and continue pursuit of the transport. Obi-wan’s plan fails.
3: Send the Grand Inquisitor in the shuttle with some fighters to continue pursuit of the transport while Vader and his Destroyer follows Kenobi. Obi-wan’s plan fails.
4: Follow Kenobi in his shuttle with some fighters and allow the Destroyer to pursue the transport. Obi-wan’s plan fails.
5: Send everything against Kenobi and ignore the other high value targets on the transport, including Leia. Obi-wan’s plan succeeds.

Only a child without object permanence would choose option 5, especially since if they were really so obsessive and blinded by rage they would choose option 1 and win.

And this is only one of several instances where the show tries to show Vader as both an impulsive, unthinking rage monster hellbent on capturing Kenobi and also a character who is so disinterested in finishing the job that he sits back and lets Kenobi escape at least four times in six episodes.

I’m more than willing to engage with these stories on their own terms and have individual villains make sub-optimal decisions based on their established character traits, but if these traits become Flanderized to the point that two of the galaxy’s most powerful villains can’t capture a crippled freighter, don’t blame me for pointing out that their Star Destroyer has become a clown car.

But Vader is a rage monster. That is what being a Sith is about. Vader burns with hate toward Kenobi and his actions fit with that assessment. Vader only cares about Kenobi. The inquisitors care about the others who are escaping, but Vader does not. It is clear from this entire series and from the scenes in ANH that Vader burns for revenge and will stop at nothing to get it. He doesn’t calm down until the Emperor tells him to. He’s ready to send the fleet after Kenobi and is told no by the only person he will listen to. So your argument that Vader must make some other choice isn’t in character for him. In the PT Anakin was portrayed as similarly single minded. He was ready to abandon the chase for Dooku to rescue Padme and wanted to take Kenobi and the clones as well.

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#1490046
Topic
The Kenobi <s>Movie</s> Show (Spoilers)
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As for Leia, this series just emphasizes things we saw in the OT. How did she stand in front of Vader, get tortured by Vader, without her force abilities showing? She obviously has them, more obvious in this series, but even in the OT there are hints. So what do we make of these and do they agree or not?

First I would say they agree. For one thing, we don’t see Vader at full power in ANH. It was the first film and Lucas hadn’t worked that out yet. Vader probably wasn’t intended to use the Jedi mind trick on Leia to get her to talk. But not seeing the interrogation, we don’t know what he did or did not do. We only have what we can surmise from the rest of the OT. So whatever he does, he never realizes she is force sensitive or his daughter.

Second, young Leia has powers, but is not wise in their use yet. She can read people. She is powerful in the force, but not like Luke, Kenobi, or Yoda. Her power is subtle. A good power for a politician. It goes unnoticed until Kenobi tells Luke she is his sister. Like in ANH, Leia is around Vader and Reva and they don’t notice her power. This also ties in to explain the big plot hole in ROTJ vs. ROTS. Kenobi knew Padme. Leia reads his memories of Padme and gains what she tells Luke of in ROTJ. Padme was on his mind a lot, which seems to be what she can sense.

And most of all, this young Leia is very much an homage to Carrie Fisher. She is wild like Carrie and we see some character development as she learns the cost of being wild and the benefits of channeling her talents. At the end she dresses herself and is ready to do her duty for Alderaan. Much closer to the Leia we meet in ANH.

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#1490041
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The Kenobi <s>Movie</s> Show (Spoilers)
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DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

MalaStrana#2 said:

yotsuya said:

MalaStrana#2 said:

Vader, episode 3: « I am what you made me. »

Vader, episode 6: « You didn’t fail Anakin. I killed Anakin. »

This fucking show isn’t even internally consistent. It’s incredible how badly written this shit is…

(Just waiting for basic fans to explain « he meant what he is in a physical state not his psychological state. It fits perfectly. It bridges PT to OT perfectly » 😂)

In episode 3 Vader is referring to his suit. In episode 6 he is referring to his fall. Two totally different topics.

Quoting myself:

« (Just waiting for basic fans to explain « he meant what he is in a physical state not his psychological state. It fits perfectly. It bridges PT to OT perfectly » 😂) »

You’re so predictable 😂

But accurate. In Episode 3, Kenobi has just encountered a man he thought dead and sees the suit he is now encased in. In Episode 6 they are talking about Anakin’s fall and Vader takes full credit for it. That you are calling this out as an issue shows you didn’t watch the episodes very carefully. So it really diminishes the weight of your other comments. If you aren’t paying attention to very obvious things, how can you properly judge this series at all.

No, that is retro-fitting the argument. There’s nothing in the statement “What have you become?”, that specifies whether Obi-Wan is specifically talking about Vader’s physical appearance. There’s nothing in that episode either, that suggests Vader is specifically referring to his appearance, when he states " I am, what you made me." Given the statements in the final episode, you might conclude retro-actively, that Vader was talking about his physical appearance. On the other hand given the many lapses of logic in the series, you might also conclude the writers created yet another inconsistency. There is no objectively correct answer here. Just an interpretation of what was said.

It is pretty clear that Kenobi is shocked by Vader’s appearance and that was the question asked and the one Vader answered. When he says “I am what you made me.” what else could he be referring to except the armor that now keeps him alive? Kenobi didn’t cause his fall to the dark side so that would make no sense. So the two conversations are about two different aspects of Vader, body vs. force.

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#1490040
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The Kenobi <s>Movie</s> Show (Spoilers)
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I agree with the negative comments in one way. This was most definitely a movie expanded into a series. The whole bit on the desolate farming planet could be cut and just go directly to the second escape where Vader shows up. But as a 6 part series, it is really good. Nicely paced and planned out, unlike Book of Boba Fett.

I find I agree with one of the comments above. Anytime an OT character shows up in something, it is either a cause for rejoicing or derision. And it seems to be tied to expectations. Those are very individual so I really can’t make any blanket comments except that when the use of an OT character leads to derision of the project, it is always because expectations for that character(s) were not met. People more willing to accept what the story has to offer tend to like these new offerings.

Remember, many on this forum do not agree about the PT or ST films. Some rank TLJ as one of the worst films and some one of the best. Some hate the PT, some don’t. So any expectation that your opinion should be universal is unrealistic.

I think the bar is lower for TV than for film. Though to be very honest, I saw nothing wrong with how this series did things. Upping the brightness to indicate heat is common, even in films. In ANH, Tatooine is rather washed out, same with TPM and AOTC. I found it refreshing that the settings were not always dramatic. Things were happening in out of the way places because these force sensitive people and those helping them are sticking to the backwater places. So the two Vader/Kenobi encounters being in fairly blah locations is perfectly logical, even if that doesn’t fit with your ideas of the appropriate setting for such epic encounters.

I saw nothing about this that looks like a fan film. Though with the tools in the hands of fans these days, it is getting hard to tell them apart. ROTJ didn’t use any locations outside of CA. Redwoods close to Lucasfilm HQ and desert close to Hollywood. Star Wars has not always used exotic international locations. Alderaan was shown as a mountainous forested location in Ep III and the location shooting in Kenobi fit exactly. So I had no issue with a single location. they were all unique for Star Wars, even if they were mundane and terrestrial. But many Star Wars locations have been. Especially the OT ones. I’ve seen plenty of fan FX that rival studio FX. It is usually the acting that gives it away if anything, but a lot of fan films are fantastically done these days. So much so that accusing Kenobi of looking like a fan film is pretty meaningless.

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#1490027
Topic
The Kenobi <s>Movie</s> Show (Spoilers)
Time

MalaStrana#2 said:

yotsuya said:

MalaStrana#2 said:

Vader, episode 3: « I am what you made me. »

Vader, episode 6: « You didn’t fail Anakin. I killed Anakin. »

This fucking show isn’t even internally consistent. It’s incredible how badly written this shit is…

(Just waiting for basic fans to explain « he meant what he is in a physical state not his psychological state. It fits perfectly. It bridges PT to OT perfectly » 😂)

In episode 3 Vader is referring to his suit. In episode 6 he is referring to his fall. Two totally different topics.

Quoting myself:

« (Just waiting for basic fans to explain « he meant what he is in a physical state not his psychological state. It fits perfectly. It bridges PT to OT perfectly » 😂) »

You’re so predictable 😂

But accurate. In Episode 3, Kenobi has just encountered a man he thought dead and sees the suit he is now encased in. In Episode 6 they are talking about Anakin’s fall and Vader takes full credit for it. That you are calling this out as an issue shows you didn’t watch the episodes very carefully. So it really diminishes the weight of your other comments. If you aren’t paying attention to very obvious things, how can you properly judge this series at all.