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yotsuya

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2-Dec-2008
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20-Sep-2021
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Post
#1443351
Topic
Project <strong>4K80</strong> (a WIP)
Time

CrazyLegsKane said:

DMC said:

CrazyLegsKane said:

diegolondrina said:

Any updates? Not just asking to see when it will be done, but also to know if you guys need more donations, help, or anything else. Thanks for doing this historic work.

It appears the project has stalled, due to a death in the family ☹️

That’s not the case, work on 4K80 is continuing AFAIK. And maybe it’s just me, but I feel like that news really isn’t yours to share.

I’m simply sharing something that has already been made public on forums.thestarwarstrilogy.com.

But you were quite tardy and it was quite clear all along that it had a minimal timing impact on the project. So I’m not sure why you bothered to post it here when you did, when it was very old news by that point.

Post
#1442660
Topic
I abhor the &quot;X undoes Y's accomplishments&quot; criticism so much.
Time

In TROS we see his Sith followers. It is more likely that after ROTJ they went to the ruins of the Death Star and were able to recover Palaptine. Not sure if it was his body, force ghost, or what. He may have taken over one of them for the voyage and once on Exogul they cloned his body, but after he transferred into it the clone body could not contain him and was dying. I feel certain that what we see in TROS is a clone. We know Snoke was a clone (of who or what we don’t know) and I think the tissue samples they took from Grogu in Mandelorian are going to fit in there somewhere. My guess is that what we just saw in the season 2 finale of Mandelorian is what starts the ST. I think that Palpatine was dead for all that time and only after that was found and taken to Exogol.

Post
#1442393
Topic
I abhor the &quot;X undoes Y's accomplishments&quot; criticism so much.
Time

TestingOutTheTest said:

yotsuya said:

TestingOutTheTest said:

Anakin’s such a great chosen one he didn’t even kill Palpatine and end his reign, and his son turned out to be a failure by any standard, didn’t restore the Jedi. Even his daughter failed to restore the Republic.

That is not true. Palpatine died. He was brought back by his Sith acolytes through something he evidently had planned. An idea stolen from legends. Palpatine even said he died to confirm that Anakin succeeded in eliminating the Sith and balancing the force. Anakin even tells Rey that she should balance the force as he did.

I disagree here. Palpatine simply transferred his consciousness into a clone, he wasn’t resurrected by Sith acolytes. His original body blew up twice and had to have been disintegrated completely.

I think TROS makes it clear that Palpatine was dead. The Empire was over. If he had transferred his conciousness to a clone at that time he could have kept up the Empire and and the victory we see at the end of the SE ROTJ would not have happened. Palpatine was dead. The Sith had to figure out how to clone a force sensitive body to put Palpatine back into. And i don’t think it worked too well. How his spirit was preserved we don’t know. But we can imagine a Sith force ghost. But Palpatine died and was dead for a while.

I agree that Palps WAS dead, but…

If he had transferred his conciousness to a clone at that time he could have kept up the Empire and and the victory we see at the end of the SE ROTJ would not have happened. Palpatine was dead.

His clone on Exegol was literally a rotting corpse. He’s unable to move and has to be attached to a machine to stay alive. His flesh was decaying. The other Snoke clones were lifeless. He also had to oversee the construction of his Final Order, which (I believe) was a backup plan (the fact that they look identical to Imperial Star Destroyers means they at least started construction during the days of the Empire).

Also the Empire lost because the Death Star II was destroyed, even without Palps’ death.

I disagree. If he had transferred to a clone right away he could have issued orders and kept the Empire going. The loss of the Death Star (a secret facility that virtually no one knew about) would not have been enough to consider it a defeat of the entire Empire. It was the fall of Palpatine that led to the fall of the Empire. The destruction of the Death Star was a blow to those in the know in the Empire, but the loss of the Emperor himself (whose statue was toppled on Coruscant) was an Empire ending event.

Post
#1441956
Topic
I abhor the &quot;X undoes Y's accomplishments&quot; criticism so much.
Time

TestingOutTheTest said:

Anakin’s such a great chosen one he didn’t even kill Palpatine and end his reign, and his son turned out to be a failure by any standard, didn’t restore the Jedi. Even his daughter failed to restore the Republic.

That is not true. Palpatine died. He was brought back by his Sith acolytes through something he evidently had planned. An idea stolen from legends. Palpatine even said he died to confirm that Anakin succeeded in eliminating the Sith and balancing the force. Anakin even tells Rey that she should balance the force as he did.

I disagree here. Palpatine simply transferred his consciousness into a clone, he wasn’t resurrected by Sith acolytes. His original body blew up twice and had to have been disintegrated completely.

I think TROS makes it clear that Palpatine was dead. The Empire was over. If he had transferred his conciousness to a clone at that time he could have kept up the Empire and and the victory we see at the end of the SE ROTJ would not have happened. Palpatine was dead. The Sith had to figure out how to clone a force sensitive body to put Palpatine back into. And i don’t think it worked too well. How his spirit was preserved we don’t know. But we can imagine a Sith force ghost. But Palpatine died and was dead for a while.

Post
#1441888
Topic
George Lucas's Sequel Trilogy
Time

Servii said:

I’m fairly indifferent about midi-chlorians. I don’t hate them. I just think they’re an unnecessary middleman. However, I’ve never liked the concept of the Whills. And I think having these transcendent “Force gods” undercuts the pantheism of Star Wars. The idea that the sacred is inherent to all life, that it emanates from life, being felt through the unity of all living beings, is a compelling one. The Whills pull attention away from that and make the setting more traditionally theistic.

I can see why George was tempted to go in that direction. Lots of writers have that urge to eventually “pull back the curtain” and reveal answers to the mysteries they’ve created. That doesn’t always mean you should, though.

I agree with that. I do think the midichlorians work because it puts a more science face on the Republic era Jedi. It helps explain how out of touch they are with the force itself. They are trying to explain it. And a reverse idea is that the midichlorians are just a little critter that is attracted to the force so if you are more powerful there are more of them, rather than you are more powerful because there are more of them. I definitely think Lucas’s idea for the ST and including the Whills was a bad idea. I’m glad we did not get that.

Post
#1441873
Topic
I abhor the &quot;X undoes Y's accomplishments&quot; criticism so much.
Time

JadedSkywalker said:

Palpatine did get his revenge and the entire Skywalker line failed and died.

Han and Leia had one son who died, Luke didn’t pass on crap except in Legends canon where he had a Son.

Take away Rey the adopted Skywalker and it isn’t really about the Skywalkers at all.

All too true.

Anakin’s such a great chosen one he didn’t even kill Palpatine and end his reign, and his son turned out to be a failure by any standard, didn’t restore the Jedi. Even his daughter failed to restore the Republic.

That is not true. Palpatine died. He was brought back by his Sith acolytes through something he evidently had planned. An idea stolen from legends. Palpatine even said he died to confirm that Anakin succeeded in eliminating the Sith and balancing the force. Anakin even tells Rey that she should balance the force as he did.

Its all there except for the hope that Rey, Finn and Poe, aka the next generation will fix the last generations mistakes. Fulfill their hopes and aspirations.

If the last generation did things perfectly there wouldn’t be much of a story for a sequel. The sequel is not based on what the heroes of the OT did wrong, it is based on what went wrong as they were trying to rebuild the Republic and the Jedi. They faced challenges along the way and adapted. Luke followed the examples of Ben and Yoda and went into hiding. Leia went back to working in a covert resistance/rebellion operation. Han went back to being a smuggler. Each has an arc that is revealed to have many successes. Some additional information was in the newer novels. Snoke came on the scene and caused trouble. Evidently for Luke and Leia. He corrupted Ben Solo and Luke’s mistake triggered his fall to the dark side. In the books, others found out that Leia was Darth Vader’s daughter and she was basically kicked out of the new Republic government. The fall of Ben tore apart Leia and Han. And as we came to find out, the resurrected Palpatine was behind Snoke and most of the trouble. So the ST skipped the crumbling part of the story and brought us back in for the final success of our OT heroes and the final defeat of Palpatine.

And it isn’t like Palpatine is the first baddie to get resurrected. Ming the Merciless and The Master both have died only to come back again. It would be cool for someone to write a book about how the Sith brought him back and how he orchestrated Snoke’s First Order. But the movies are clear enough as to what happened in the Palpatine/Skywalker saga. Because with Palpatine back and set as the mastermind behind Snoke, the saga becomes the conflict between Palpatine and the Skywalker family.

Post
#1441872
Topic
I abhor the &quot;X undoes Y's accomplishments&quot; criticism so much.
Time

NeverarGreat said:

That seems like a rather myopic way to view the conversation. The final few statements are broken into three distinct thoughts:

“When gone am I, the last of the Jedi will you be.”

“The Force runs strong in your family…pass on what you have learned.”

“Luke, there is another Skywalker.”

Each thought builds on the one before it, but it’s important to preserve the order of lines. Luke is being commanded to pass on what he has learned without first knowing that he has another living relative. It could be implied that Luke would pass on his knowledge to his children, or that his knowledge would lead to a ‘return of the Jedi’ in the galaxy like the title implies. Only after this order does Yoda drop the ‘other Skywalker’ bomb on him, so it stands to reason that this other would be among those Luke teaches but almost certainly not the extent of his obligation. I know I’d be pissed as a Force Ghost if my student just trained the secret twin and nobody else because of the letter of the order and not its spirit.

Yes, the order is important. He’s told to pass it on to family, not generally and then he is told there is another living Skywalker. The lines go together to say that Luke will be the last Jedi, and he has a living family member that Yoda wants him to train. Ben tells him that it is his twin sister Leia. There is not command to rebuild the Jedi. And we see in the TROS flashback that he did exactly that before he tried to start an Academy and teach others. Fans expected him to restart the Jedi and find and teach others. But that was not a goal in the OT.

Post
#1441123
Topic
I abhor the &quot;X undoes Y's accomplishments&quot; criticism so much.
Time

NeverarGreat said:

It was Yoda’s dying wish that Luke pass on what he had learned.

“There is another Sky… wal… ker.”

He was to find the other Skywalker and pass on what he had learned. No one else was specified. But prior to that the focus was entirely on defeating Vader and the Emperor. That was the endgame of ROTJ for Luke.

Post
#1440982
Topic
I abhor the &quot;X undoes Y's accomplishments&quot; criticism so much.
Time

TestingOutTheTest said:

There were no goals to rebuild the Republic, to rebuild the Jedi order.

I really disagree here. The Rebels definitely wanted the Empire to be gone because they were tyrants. Of course they’d want something better in charge. Not that they wanted to rebuild the actual Republic.

Also, Yoda tells Luke to restore the Jedi.

And I’m speaking as the OP of the post who keeps saying that nothing lasts forever.

Yoda never tells Luke to restore the Jedi. Yoda’s goal is to see Luke completely trained as a Jedi Knight. His task is to defeat Vader and the Emperor. Luke takes his own path to do that by redeeming his father his Anakin kills Palpatine. There is nothing discussed about the future. Not for Luke with the Jedi or with Leia and what will replace the Empire. That all happened in Legends. There is nothing in the OT that gives any goal behind the end of the Empire. That is the end game of the OT - the destruction of the Empire.

Post
#1440516
Topic
I abhor the &quot;X undoes Y's accomplishments&quot; criticism so much.
Time

The argument that everything the OT characters worked for has been undone is false. All they were working for in the OT is to bring down the Empire. There were no goals to rebuild the Republic, to rebuild the Jedi order. That wasn’t in the OT. Luke wanted to become a Jedi. Done. Never undone. He went into hiding, but he was still a Jedi. Leia led the Rebellion to victory and we aren’t even sure what all she did, but when we meet up with her again she isn’t just a princess in a Rebellion, she is a general in the new Resistance. Han got with Leia, had a son, broke up with Leia and is now on his own, which is more in character for Han that what he did in Legends post ROTJ. So nothing that these characters got in the OT has been taken away. Luke started a Jedi Academy that was destroyed and then went on a quest for answers and didn’t find the ones he hoped to. And they had to do it off screen because you can’t have a successful story that shows what they had and tears it apart unless you put it back together or give them something different and better. So the tear down had to happen off screen. Then we get to watch them fight and achieve something new. But the main focus of the ST was always going to be the new characters. It was never supposed to be the second trilogy for the OT characters. It was supposed to be the older actors in supporting roles to the new cast and that is exactly what we got.

Post
#1439998
Topic
I abhor the &quot;X undoes Y's accomplishments&quot; criticism so much.
Time

Artan42 said:

At no point in the PT or TCW is any indication given that Palps alone is responsible for the fall of the Republic. The Republic falls due to it being crippled by corruption and decay, exactly the reason real life governments fall, this has been well explained by Lucas along with all the other tropes based on real life in the OT and PT.

Really? That is the entirety of the PT. Palpatine is the puppet master behind everything that happens. He causes the blockade of Naboo so he can become chancellor. He causes the clone war so he can destabilize the republic and destroy the Jedi. He has his hook in Anakin from TPM on. Palpatine single handedly does all this through his manipulations. There is debate as to who ordered the clone army, but Palpatine took it over, had Jango Fett selected as the source, implanted order 66. So for 3 years there were over a million ticking timebombs ready to destroy the Jedi when the order was given.

And where they went with TROS brought that puppeteering back, placing Palpatine behind Snoke. And Palpatine did die, but has been brought back by his Sith acolytes. In ROTJ they decapitate the Empire, sending it into confusion. But Palpatine had planned for that and his loyalists brought him back and the confrontation with Rey was supposed to be his final rebirth, but he was thwarted at last. In TROS the First Order and the other remnants of the Empire are not beheaded, they are annihilated. Palpatine is gone and there is no one to bring him back. Watch ROTJ. For Luke it all becomes about saving his father. For Anakin, as he comes back, it is about saving his son. Palpatine dies and the Empire crumbles. All around success. The force is in balance until the Sith resurrect Palpatine and he send Snoke into the world to act for him. Snoke and Dooku are playing the same role. Rey is the Force balancing the return of Palpatine. It does nothing to alter the OT or PT. That story stays intact. Palpatine was dead and the force was in balance. Anakin was the Chosen One. Rey is a new chosen one to reseal what the Sith had reopened.

And if you don’t think that works, you aren’t really aware of the myths that lie at the heart of Star Wars. Myths that always had sequels for a new generation of listeners. Books and movies have always had sequels. Often by the original creator, but often by others. And not every story was written in order. Some jump around. Hornblower and Narnia for instance. And frankly, everything I’ve heard about Lucas’s plan for the sequel has not sounded like a great idea. Sequels can build on the original and even restart things thought settled in the original. That is what sequels do.

Post
#1437705
Topic
Plot hole in A New Hope (not really - more of a WUM / troll post)
Time

That is not what a plot hole is. A plot hole is something that is internally inconsistent in a story. What Ben told Luke about Vader and his father is internally consistent in A New Hope. It is explained in Return of the Jedi as a certain point of view. Ben was being metaphorical. Anakin and Vader were so different as to be different people. This is something Luke carried forward to ROTJ. It is how Anakin is redeemed. So in the one film there is no issue, in the 2nd film there is doubt because it seems to that what Vader tells Luke contradicts Ben. Who do you believe, the bad guy or your mentor. But Luke knows it to be true. So for TESB is a cliff hanger thread. So Ben explains his reasoning to Luke in ROTJ. Problem solved. No plot hole.

In my experience, most things people claim to be plot holes really aren’t.

Post
#1436855
Topic
High Republic setting general discussion
Time

I got a surprise last night. I went on to youtube to find some of the videos about the High Republic setting to show my kids to get them interested in one of the books and was greeted by video after video griping and complaining about it. I watched a couple and from them it is clear that these are just the normal jokers who never seem to like anything.

But it made me wonder what the more intelligent members of this site might think.

I’m currently reading A Test of Courage to my kids, and it has a good start to it. So far I like it and find it well written, even if intended of a younger audience. But that is typical for Star Wars in my experience.

And I’m not sure the character is in this book, but they have evidently introduced a species that looks like a rock. Not the first time we’ve seen that, though in Star Wars it is a first. It actaully sent chills down my back when I saw that because it reminded me of The Stones of Blood, a Tom Baker era Doctor Who story with a group of such living rocks terrorizing rural England.

Post
#1435803
Topic
The Phantom Menace: The Theatrical Version (unfinished project)
Time

I tackled this for my own collection. I wasn’t too happy with the results. But it led directly to my personal desired edit of the film. I would disagree that the LD is the best version. I think the European broadcast is better, and there are two different ones. I processed the two to even out digital artifacts and then upscaled it (I don’t have the AI tool, I used something older that does a fair job). I kept the cropping of the DVD/HD broadcast. There are not many changes. But my edit is the theatrical cut (so I can use the DTS audio), but with the updates. So no puppet Yoda, no cropping (except for the small clip at the beginning of the pod race), and some color correction on reel 1.

But I would very much like to see what you come up with. It has to be better than what I’ve done.

Post
#1433892
Topic
Are the JSC LD's the <strong>TRUE</strong> Releases of the Theatrical Version(s)?
Time

Tantive3+1 said:

Interesting that the Theatrical audio for ANH has never had an official digital format release but the video portion of it has.

True, no official release, but we have some excellent captures of the optical stereo soundtrack off of prints. And pretty much around here, we have access to the 1977 general release in the form of the Silver Screen Edition and 4K77.

Post
#1433677
Topic
Are the JSC LD's the <strong>TRUE</strong> Releases of the Theatrical Version(s)?
Time

To be clear, the only audio difference in home video releases prior to the Definitive Collection/Faces/GOUT was the tractor beam line. That was the sole audio edit. The summary above of the visual differences is accurate except the end credits. The odd end credits are only found on Puggo Grand and Moth3r’s bootleg. The JSC has the standard end end credit as do all the home official home video releases.

Visually, the Definitive Collection and Faces are the general release prints. ANH matches the 81 re-release. TESB and ROTJ GOUT are from the master tape and are identical. ANH is almost identical except that it has the original crawl. Any audio differences in TESB and ROTJ are minor and hard to detect. ANH was a new audio mix incorporating several changes, most from the mono-mix. Not sure where that exploding sound effect came from, but like all the 93 mix changes, it carried over into the SE soundmix.

The JSC does feature the tractor beam line, like every English language home video release in the mid to late 80’s.

And my interest in what soundtrack Puggo Grand had was in what came on the print. It was a mixdown of the stereo track. That the Sweedish print (released as Puggo Kreig I believe) had the mono mix shows that the foreign language releases were done AFTER the mono mix and other summer release changes were made.

Post
#1432797
Topic
Are the JSC LD's the <strong>TRUE</strong> Releases of the Theatrical Version(s)?
Time

There are clues in the different versions that we can trace back. The first one to land on is the production of the foreign language versions back in 1977. Aside from the changes in audio and the different opening crawl, the Definitive Collection/Faces/2006 bonus discs are identical. So from late 1977 to 1985 when that interpositive was made, no changes were made to the film, except for the opening crawl. And that was restored for the 2006 bonus disc. And the changes to the audio made for the audio for that version were all taken from the mono mix. So the 2006 bonus disc is the closest we have to the general release of the movie.

The JSC has 3 shots that were changed. When the Star Destroyer is shooting at the Falcon as it leaves Tatooine, the exterior composite shot of Luke, Han, Leia et al. arriving on Yavin IV, and the shot of the rebel fighters taking off for the Death Star. So far, only one of those shots in one single 35 mm print has been found. Otherwise those three shots on 35 mm match the 1985 interpositive. That includes the Technicolor prints which we know were made in 1977.

We also have something intriguing in two other sources. We have the bootleg widescreen that Moth3r shared with us and the English 16 mm print that Puggo captured and shared as Puggo Grand. These two prints are unlike any others. They have the original crawl, a completely different end credits, and those same 3 shots found in the JSC. Also, both Moth3r’s bootleg and Puggo Grand are mono, but it isn’t the mono mix, it is a mixdown of the stereo track.

When you put the pieces together, those 3 FX shots must have been changed sometime between the May 25 premier and when the Technicolor prints, foreign language prints, and the general release prints we have had access to were made. Same for the end credits. All the English language prints before the Definitive collection used older interpositives and they all have the same 3 flawed FX shots (if you watch them you can see the flaws and see how the replacements are the same but improved), the 81 crawl, and the revised end credits. Movie studios and distributors think nothing of mixing and matching prints. My guess is that the error in the end credits was caught early and at least one print was made before the FX shot was changed in the same reel. That would explain the print that the English and Japanese home videos were made from, all from prints in Fox’s possession. It has several other notable flaws as well. Then the 3 FX shots were replaced, probably when they did the mono mix. And everything after that is identical until the 97 SE edits (when 2 of those FX shots were replaced again.

So if you want to see the original May 1977 version, check out Moth3r’s bootleg and Puggo Grand. If you want to see the movie as most people did, check out 4K77. JSC is a hybrid of those versions with the added tractor beam line from the mono mix (why only the one change, I do not know). The 2006 bonus disc is the closest to the July 77 print with mono that we have had in an official release.

Post
#1432792
Topic
In defense of Rey Palpatine in <em>The Rise of Skywalker</em>, and why I do not think it undermines her arc in <em>The Last Jedi</em>.
Time

TestingOutTheTest said:

yotsuya said:

TestingOutTheTest said:

But my point is there was no indication it’s how Rey felt when she admitted “They were nobody.” There’s nothing that contradicts this as truth when we do get to that point in TLJ. If there was a hint that it was what Rey believed in TLJ, then I would agree with you.

But they were nobody. Even TROS confirms that. It is what happened and why they left that what Rey imagines is more imporant that reality for the plot of TFA and TLJ. But in TROS we learn the truth and it furthers the story rather than reframing.

I was referring to Rey’s parents being bad people who threw her away like garbage - they thought she was worthless. That’s what Rey meant when she said that, they didn’t have a reason to abandon her, they didn’t care about her. Re-read my previous posts and the original. It’s the (storytelling) truth or else that arc’d be pointless, all for nothing - which, again, is what happens in TRoS.

Looks like we’re gonna be going in circles…

I think you are going in circles. If you look at how she felt in TFA, she wanted her parents to come back. She had hope that there was some other reason. But deep down she couldn’t see a reason why they did what they did. Kylo made her face that and deal with it. In TROS we find out that her original hope was true, but it was also true that they were never coming back. She held the dagger that killed them and the force gave her a vision to show her the reality of the past. It was that hope from TFA, reiginted in TROS, that helped her overcome the fear of turning into Palpatine in TROS. Anytime someone is abandoned and doesn’t have the facts they will create fictions in their head about what happened. Often more than one. Rey had the fiction that they were coming back for her and that the had left her behind for no good reason. It is the same as in TLJ when we are related what happened at the Jedi Academy. Luke tells a story then Kylo tells a story, then Luke digs deeper and reveals the whole truth. Rey and her parents follows the same pattern. They are coming back, they were nobodies who abandoned her, they were on the run and left her to protect her.

Lucas like poetry, things repeating. I think the ST we got is full of that. Both in itself, with the other trilogies, and as a saga as a whole. Too much is made of the minute course corrections in the ST and ignore how many of those happened before. Too many whine about a story made up as they went along when that is how Lucas made the OT. Lucas may not like how the ST came out, but I am certain it came out better than if he had done it. We didn’t need to further complicate and explain the mystical force by bringing the Whills into it.

I think Rey being a Palpatine fits the saga perfectly. It gives her a place, a place that was hidden for good reason. It links to the greatest of the saga villains. It gives the story an epic climax that no other villain/hero combination could have had. Evil grandfather vs. troubled granddaughter. And it is fitting in the end that Palpatine made the instrument of his own destruction… twice. And it is even more fitting that in the end the granddaughter of Palpatine takes the name Skywalker to break signify the break with that family.

I do think this is separate from Rey’s feelings of self worth. Those do link directly to being abandoned on Jakku, but the details of her parents don’t matter to that. It was the abandonment without any reason given that did the damage and caused her self-worth issues. All you need to do is research what issues Foster Children deal with to know that. And so many stories have been told about people abandoned as children who have struggles in their lives from that. Rey thinks she has finally found a place, as Leia’s student and Finn, Poe, Rose, and Chewbacca’s friend and then she learns she is the granddaughter of the most evil being the galaxy has seen and she feels herself falling toward that destiny. Just when she was starting to get things together. She has to reexamine things and Luke clues her in and sets her back on her path and then she is joined by Ben and is backed by all the Jedi of the past. So if anything TROS just puts a hiccup in her story, as most series end up doing, and it only makes the ending stronger.

Post
#1432277
Topic
In defense of Rey Palpatine in <em>The Rise of Skywalker</em>, and why I do not think it undermines her arc in <em>The Last Jedi</em>.
Time

KumoNin said:

But they were nobody. Even TROS confirms that

It certainly wants you to believe that. But if you found out that one of your parents (parents who died when you were little and apparently led unremarkable lives), say, your dad, was actually Hitler’s kid (or, for a more canon-accurate example, a clone of Adolf Hitler!) and gave his life to protect you from Hitler, would you really insist that your parents were nobodies? Rey certainly doesn’t

Just look at Rey’s arc in TFA and TLJ. It is all about her parents leaving her. By the end of TLJ she has overcome that issue. In TROS we learn that she didn’t have all the information and that one of her parents (in the film it never specifies which parent and does not mention clones) was a child of Palpatine and her force powers echo his. It is a new journey for her. It might partially reopen the old one, due to what she learns about her parents, but she had come to terms with the worst scenario so learning her parents didn’t just abandon her but were murdered as they tried to protect her would be a positive change. It is confirmation that they didn’t just leave her, she was loved and wanted. But she already found that in her new group in the Resistance. Her character arc in TROS doesn’t revisit that but moves forward with the bad side of the news, that she is a Palpatine and it completely derails her sense of placement. Now she questions if she really can be the Jedi savior (and we see at the beginning that she knows she hasn’t reached the right level of training and mindset yet).

But let’s look at Rey’s parents and what they mean to Rey and her journey. There was a build up in TFA that Rey was somebody. That she came from somewhere. It was mostly fan flamed. She had to be someone. So the reveal that her parents were nobody special came as a shock. To fans. It fit perfectly in the story. Rey wanted to be somebody, to belong with this new group of people she found. But there was no link. She remembers that her parents were nobody special when Kylo forces her to admit it. But let’s compare her lineage to the Skywalkers. Anakin was the chosen one, possibly the most powerful force user the galaxy has seen. But he did not get the right teaching and fell to the dark side, but he had twin children, each powerful in the force. And whether or not Lucas intended it or not, Leia shows she is powerful in ANH when even Vader can’t get anything out of her. Luke, of course, becomes a powerful Jedi and starts a Jedi Academy. He has no children (in the film canon). Leia has one son who is powerful in the force. But Rey is a Palpatine. Sheev is her grandfather (biological or clone doesn’t matter). Sheev is powerful in the force. His child is not. There is no indication of any force powers in either of her parents. This actually works nicely into the story if Sheev’s child is a clone, but that has no bearing on the movies. So in terms of being Jedi, smugglers, or any sort of heroes, her parents were nobody. They were just travelers. And yet from those two nobodies comes a new chosen one, very powerful in the force and able to learn very quickly from Kylo, Maz, Luke, and Leia. How does such a person come from nobody?

I remember the discussions on this site where we argued what family she was. I thought her accent was a key. We had all sorts of theories. A few thought she shouldn’t be related to anyone. Kenobi and Skywalker were the other choices. No one said Palpatine. Then she was nobody in TLJ and then a Palpatine in TROS. But this again parallels the revelations in the OT. Anakin and Vader were different in ANH, then Vader is Anakin and Luke’s father in TESB, then Leia joins the family in ROTJ. Luke has to deal with each of those. Rey has to deal with each revelation about her parents, They aren’t coming back, they are nobodies, Palpatine is her grandfather.

See, I personally find the return of Palpatine and Rey being a Palpatine a genius idea that really caps the series. There is so much symetry and poetry in it. It ties everything back to the PT. And even better, it is so true to the Flash Gordon origins of Star Wars and the Ming origins of Palpatine.

And in the Mandelorian we get a final piece to the puzzle. Making a force sensitive clone is hard. The events that end season 2 have a place in the narrative. That blood sample from Grogu unlocked making a force sensitive clone and the rise of Snoke an the resurrection of Palpatine. At least that is what seems to fit now. We will see where they take it.

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#1432161
Topic
In defense of Rey Palpatine in <em>The Rise of Skywalker</em>, and why I do not think it undermines her arc in <em>The Last Jedi</em>.
Time

TestingOutTheTest said:

But my point is there was no indication it’s how Rey felt when she admitted “They were nobody.” There’s nothing that contradicts this as truth when we do get to that point in TLJ. If there was a hint that it was what Rey believed in TLJ, then I would agree with you.

But they were nobody. Even TROS confirms that. It is what happened and why they left that what Rey imagines is more imporant that reality for the plot of TFA and TLJ. But in TROS we learn the truth and it furthers the story rather than reframing.

And I pointed out before that Star Wars is a fantasy. It doesn’t really have to be accurate to real life.

But the best stories echo real life. Especially in fantasy.

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#1432027
Topic
In defense of Rey Palpatine in <em>The Rise of Skywalker</em>, and why I do not think it undermines her arc in <em>The Last Jedi</em>.
Time

TestingOutTheTest said:

As I stated multiple times in this thread, Rey’s “They were nobody” meant they didn’t have an actual reason to abandon her - they thought she was WORTHLESS. Even if you ignore Kylo Ren’s following dialogue, it retains that meaning.

“Oh, but that’s what Rey believes!” As I stated, it’s the storytelling truth or else that arc of moving past her awful, shitty parents who hated her would be pointless. She moves past them in TLJ by the time we meet her on Crait. (Again, link to STC, don’t really recommend checking it out if you hate STC.)

I do agree with you that she accepts they’re GONE, but it was ONE of the points of her TLJ arc, not the ONLY one - the other one was that she doesn’t care about her parents anymore, from a personal and validation sense, BECAUSE they threw her away like garbage.

My point is that TFA and TLJ deal with how Rey feels about her parents, not the facts. The facts are unknown. We don’t know why they left her there or where they went. We don’t know if they are alive or dead. But they abandoned her without her understanding why. That is the trauma she must overcome. When you experience such a trauma, the truth of the events don’t matter, what matters is how you feel. Kids who are adopted have a wide range of feelings. Two people who had the exact same thing happen at the same age can have widely different reactions. All we are given in TLJ is what Kylo says. Kylo has no real knowledge, just guesses. I believe that he saw her history and what she imagined and used that when he was talking to her to try and turn her to the dark side, so the the nature of what he said has no connection to factual history. When we get to TROS, that part of the story is done. Rey has come to terms with being abandoned. She had found a place. She has been training with Leia for a year.

TROS brings in new information and a new chapter in Rey’s journey. She’d come to terms with being abandoned and now she is faced with the actual facts. Her parents were on the run and left her on Jakku to save her from Palpatine and now she is going to face him. Not only that, but she has powers similar to Palpatine’s and truly fears she might become him. It does cause her to revisit being abandoned, but she had come to terms with the abandonment and that piece really doesn’t impact the story. The revelation that her parents left her to save her comes to light and then is overshadowed by one of them being a Palpatine and what that means for Rey. So she doesn’t go revisit being abandoned. She had already found her place and that is solidified by finding out Leia and Luke knew and when the Jedi spirits support her in the final conflict.