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yotsuya

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Post
#1435803
Topic
The Phantom Menace: The Theatrical Version (a WIP)
Time

I tackled this for my own collection. I wasn’t too happy with the results. But it led directly to my personal desired edit of the film. I would disagree that the LD is the best version. I think the European broadcast is better, and there are two different ones. I processed the two to even out digital artifacts and then upscaled it (I don’t have the AI tool, I used something older that does a fair job). I kept the cropping of the DVD/HD broadcast. There are not many changes. But my edit is the theatrical cut (so I can use the DTS audio), but with the updates. So no puppet Yoda, no cropping (except for the small clip at the beginning of the pod race), and some color correction on reel 1.

But I would very much like to see what you come up with. It has to be better than what I’ve done.

Post
#1433892
Topic
Are the JSC LD's the <strong>TRUE</strong> Releases of the Theatrical Version(s)?
Time

Tantive3+1 said:

Interesting that the Theatrical audio for ANH has never had an official digital format release but the video portion of it has.

True, no official release, but we have some excellent captures of the optical stereo soundtrack off of prints. And pretty much around here, we have access to the 1977 general release in the form of the Silver Screen Edition and 4K77.

Post
#1433677
Topic
Are the JSC LD's the <strong>TRUE</strong> Releases of the Theatrical Version(s)?
Time

To be clear, the only audio difference in home video releases prior to the Definitive Collection/Faces/GOUT was the tractor beam line. That was the sole audio edit. The summary above of the visual differences is accurate except the end credits. The odd end credits are only found on Puggo Grand and Moth3r’s bootleg. The JSC has the standard end end credit as do all the home official home video releases.

Visually, the Definitive Collection and Faces are the general release prints. ANH matches the 81 re-release. TESB and ROTJ GOUT are from the master tape and are identical. ANH is almost identical except that it has the original crawl. Any audio differences in TESB and ROTJ are minor and hard to detect. ANH was a new audio mix incorporating several changes, most from the mono-mix. Not sure where that exploding sound effect came from, but like all the 93 mix changes, it carried over into the SE soundmix.

The JSC does feature the tractor beam line, like every English language home video release in the mid to late 80’s.

And my interest in what soundtrack Puggo Grand had was in what came on the print. It was a mixdown of the stereo track. That the Sweedish print (released as Puggo Kreig I believe) had the mono mix shows that the foreign language releases were done AFTER the mono mix and other summer release changes were made.

Post
#1432797
Topic
Are the JSC LD's the <strong>TRUE</strong> Releases of the Theatrical Version(s)?
Time

There are clues in the different versions that we can trace back. The first one to land on is the production of the foreign language versions back in 1977. Aside from the changes in audio and the different opening crawl, the Definitive Collection/Faces/2006 bonus discs are identical. So from late 1977 to 1985 when that interpositive was made, no changes were made to the film, except for the opening crawl. And that was restored for the 2006 bonus disc. And the changes to the audio made for the audio for that version were all taken from the mono mix. So the 2006 bonus disc is the closest we have to the general release of the movie.

The JSC has 3 shots that were changed. When the Star Destroyer is shooting at the Falcon as it leaves Tatooine, the exterior composite shot of Luke, Han, Leia et al. arriving on Yavin IV, and the shot of the rebel fighters taking off for the Death Star. So far, only one of those shots in one single 35 mm print has been found. Otherwise those three shots on 35 mm match the 1985 interpositive. That includes the Technicolor prints which we know were made in 1977.

We also have something intriguing in two other sources. We have the bootleg widescreen that Moth3r shared with us and the English 16 mm print that Puggo captured and shared as Puggo Grand. These two prints are unlike any others. They have the original crawl, a completely different end credits, and those same 3 shots found in the JSC. Also, both Moth3r’s bootleg and Puggo Grand are mono, but it isn’t the mono mix, it is a mixdown of the stereo track.

When you put the pieces together, those 3 FX shots must have been changed sometime between the May 25 premier and when the Technicolor prints, foreign language prints, and the general release prints we have had access to were made. Same for the end credits. All the English language prints before the Definitive collection used older interpositives and they all have the same 3 flawed FX shots (if you watch them you can see the flaws and see how the replacements are the same but improved), the 81 crawl, and the revised end credits. Movie studios and distributors think nothing of mixing and matching prints. My guess is that the error in the end credits was caught early and at least one print was made before the FX shot was changed in the same reel. That would explain the print that the English and Japanese home videos were made from, all from prints in Fox’s possession. It has several other notable flaws as well. Then the 3 FX shots were replaced, probably when they did the mono mix. And everything after that is identical until the 97 SE edits (when 2 of those FX shots were replaced again.

So if you want to see the original May 1977 version, check out Moth3r’s bootleg and Puggo Grand. If you want to see the movie as most people did, check out 4K77. JSC is a hybrid of those versions with the added tractor beam line from the mono mix (why only the one change, I do not know). The 2006 bonus disc is the closest to the July 77 print with mono that we have had in an official release.

Post
#1432792
Topic
In defense of Rey Palpatine in <em>The Rise of Skywalker</em>, and why I do not think it undermines her arc in <em>The Last Jedi</em>.
Time

TestingOutTheTest said:

yotsuya said:

TestingOutTheTest said:

But my point is there was no indication it’s how Rey felt when she admitted “They were nobody.” There’s nothing that contradicts this as truth when we do get to that point in TLJ. If there was a hint that it was what Rey believed in TLJ, then I would agree with you.

But they were nobody. Even TROS confirms that. It is what happened and why they left that what Rey imagines is more imporant that reality for the plot of TFA and TLJ. But in TROS we learn the truth and it furthers the story rather than reframing.

I was referring to Rey’s parents being bad people who threw her away like garbage - they thought she was worthless. That’s what Rey meant when she said that, they didn’t have a reason to abandon her, they didn’t care about her. Re-read my previous posts and the original. It’s the (storytelling) truth or else that arc’d be pointless, all for nothing - which, again, is what happens in TRoS.

Looks like we’re gonna be going in circles…

I think you are going in circles. If you look at how she felt in TFA, she wanted her parents to come back. She had hope that there was some other reason. But deep down she couldn’t see a reason why they did what they did. Kylo made her face that and deal with it. In TROS we find out that her original hope was true, but it was also true that they were never coming back. She held the dagger that killed them and the force gave her a vision to show her the reality of the past. It was that hope from TFA, reiginted in TROS, that helped her overcome the fear of turning into Palpatine in TROS. Anytime someone is abandoned and doesn’t have the facts they will create fictions in their head about what happened. Often more than one. Rey had the fiction that they were coming back for her and that the had left her behind for no good reason. It is the same as in TLJ when we are related what happened at the Jedi Academy. Luke tells a story then Kylo tells a story, then Luke digs deeper and reveals the whole truth. Rey and her parents follows the same pattern. They are coming back, they were nobodies who abandoned her, they were on the run and left her to protect her.

Lucas like poetry, things repeating. I think the ST we got is full of that. Both in itself, with the other trilogies, and as a saga as a whole. Too much is made of the minute course corrections in the ST and ignore how many of those happened before. Too many whine about a story made up as they went along when that is how Lucas made the OT. Lucas may not like how the ST came out, but I am certain it came out better than if he had done it. We didn’t need to further complicate and explain the mystical force by bringing the Whills into it.

I think Rey being a Palpatine fits the saga perfectly. It gives her a place, a place that was hidden for good reason. It links to the greatest of the saga villains. It gives the story an epic climax that no other villain/hero combination could have had. Evil grandfather vs. troubled granddaughter. And it is fitting in the end that Palpatine made the instrument of his own destruction… twice. And it is even more fitting that in the end the granddaughter of Palpatine takes the name Skywalker to break signify the break with that family.

I do think this is separate from Rey’s feelings of self worth. Those do link directly to being abandoned on Jakku, but the details of her parents don’t matter to that. It was the abandonment without any reason given that did the damage and caused her self-worth issues. All you need to do is research what issues Foster Children deal with to know that. And so many stories have been told about people abandoned as children who have struggles in their lives from that. Rey thinks she has finally found a place, as Leia’s student and Finn, Poe, Rose, and Chewbacca’s friend and then she learns she is the granddaughter of the most evil being the galaxy has seen and she feels herself falling toward that destiny. Just when she was starting to get things together. She has to reexamine things and Luke clues her in and sets her back on her path and then she is joined by Ben and is backed by all the Jedi of the past. So if anything TROS just puts a hiccup in her story, as most series end up doing, and it only makes the ending stronger.

Post
#1432277
Topic
In defense of Rey Palpatine in <em>The Rise of Skywalker</em>, and why I do not think it undermines her arc in <em>The Last Jedi</em>.
Time

KumoNin said:

But they were nobody. Even TROS confirms that

It certainly wants you to believe that. But if you found out that one of your parents (parents who died when you were little and apparently led unremarkable lives), say, your dad, was actually Hitler’s kid (or, for a more canon-accurate example, a clone of Adolf Hitler!) and gave his life to protect you from Hitler, would you really insist that your parents were nobodies? Rey certainly doesn’t

Just look at Rey’s arc in TFA and TLJ. It is all about her parents leaving her. By the end of TLJ she has overcome that issue. In TROS we learn that she didn’t have all the information and that one of her parents (in the film it never specifies which parent and does not mention clones) was a child of Palpatine and her force powers echo his. It is a new journey for her. It might partially reopen the old one, due to what she learns about her parents, but she had come to terms with the worst scenario so learning her parents didn’t just abandon her but were murdered as they tried to protect her would be a positive change. It is confirmation that they didn’t just leave her, she was loved and wanted. But she already found that in her new group in the Resistance. Her character arc in TROS doesn’t revisit that but moves forward with the bad side of the news, that she is a Palpatine and it completely derails her sense of placement. Now she questions if she really can be the Jedi savior (and we see at the beginning that she knows she hasn’t reached the right level of training and mindset yet).

But let’s look at Rey’s parents and what they mean to Rey and her journey. There was a build up in TFA that Rey was somebody. That she came from somewhere. It was mostly fan flamed. She had to be someone. So the reveal that her parents were nobody special came as a shock. To fans. It fit perfectly in the story. Rey wanted to be somebody, to belong with this new group of people she found. But there was no link. She remembers that her parents were nobody special when Kylo forces her to admit it. But let’s compare her lineage to the Skywalkers. Anakin was the chosen one, possibly the most powerful force user the galaxy has seen. But he did not get the right teaching and fell to the dark side, but he had twin children, each powerful in the force. And whether or not Lucas intended it or not, Leia shows she is powerful in ANH when even Vader can’t get anything out of her. Luke, of course, becomes a powerful Jedi and starts a Jedi Academy. He has no children (in the film canon). Leia has one son who is powerful in the force. But Rey is a Palpatine. Sheev is her grandfather (biological or clone doesn’t matter). Sheev is powerful in the force. His child is not. There is no indication of any force powers in either of her parents. This actually works nicely into the story if Sheev’s child is a clone, but that has no bearing on the movies. So in terms of being Jedi, smugglers, or any sort of heroes, her parents were nobody. They were just travelers. And yet from those two nobodies comes a new chosen one, very powerful in the force and able to learn very quickly from Kylo, Maz, Luke, and Leia. How does such a person come from nobody?

I remember the discussions on this site where we argued what family she was. I thought her accent was a key. We had all sorts of theories. A few thought she shouldn’t be related to anyone. Kenobi and Skywalker were the other choices. No one said Palpatine. Then she was nobody in TLJ and then a Palpatine in TROS. But this again parallels the revelations in the OT. Anakin and Vader were different in ANH, then Vader is Anakin and Luke’s father in TESB, then Leia joins the family in ROTJ. Luke has to deal with each of those. Rey has to deal with each revelation about her parents, They aren’t coming back, they are nobodies, Palpatine is her grandfather.

See, I personally find the return of Palpatine and Rey being a Palpatine a genius idea that really caps the series. There is so much symetry and poetry in it. It ties everything back to the PT. And even better, it is so true to the Flash Gordon origins of Star Wars and the Ming origins of Palpatine.

And in the Mandelorian we get a final piece to the puzzle. Making a force sensitive clone is hard. The events that end season 2 have a place in the narrative. That blood sample from Grogu unlocked making a force sensitive clone and the rise of Snoke an the resurrection of Palpatine. At least that is what seems to fit now. We will see where they take it.

Post
#1432161
Topic
In defense of Rey Palpatine in <em>The Rise of Skywalker</em>, and why I do not think it undermines her arc in <em>The Last Jedi</em>.
Time

TestingOutTheTest said:

But my point is there was no indication it’s how Rey felt when she admitted “They were nobody.” There’s nothing that contradicts this as truth when we do get to that point in TLJ. If there was a hint that it was what Rey believed in TLJ, then I would agree with you.

But they were nobody. Even TROS confirms that. It is what happened and why they left that what Rey imagines is more imporant that reality for the plot of TFA and TLJ. But in TROS we learn the truth and it furthers the story rather than reframing.

And I pointed out before that Star Wars is a fantasy. It doesn’t really have to be accurate to real life.

But the best stories echo real life. Especially in fantasy.

Post
#1432027
Topic
In defense of Rey Palpatine in <em>The Rise of Skywalker</em>, and why I do not think it undermines her arc in <em>The Last Jedi</em>.
Time

TestingOutTheTest said:

As I stated multiple times in this thread, Rey’s “They were nobody” meant they didn’t have an actual reason to abandon her - they thought she was WORTHLESS. Even if you ignore Kylo Ren’s following dialogue, it retains that meaning.

“Oh, but that’s what Rey believes!” As I stated, it’s the storytelling truth or else that arc of moving past her awful, shitty parents who hated her would be pointless. She moves past them in TLJ by the time we meet her on Crait. (Again, link to STC, don’t really recommend checking it out if you hate STC.)

I do agree with you that she accepts they’re GONE, but it was ONE of the points of her TLJ arc, not the ONLY one - the other one was that she doesn’t care about her parents anymore, from a personal and validation sense, BECAUSE they threw her away like garbage.

My point is that TFA and TLJ deal with how Rey feels about her parents, not the facts. The facts are unknown. We don’t know why they left her there or where they went. We don’t know if they are alive or dead. But they abandoned her without her understanding why. That is the trauma she must overcome. When you experience such a trauma, the truth of the events don’t matter, what matters is how you feel. Kids who are adopted have a wide range of feelings. Two people who had the exact same thing happen at the same age can have widely different reactions. All we are given in TLJ is what Kylo says. Kylo has no real knowledge, just guesses. I believe that he saw her history and what she imagined and used that when he was talking to her to try and turn her to the dark side, so the the nature of what he said has no connection to factual history. When we get to TROS, that part of the story is done. Rey has come to terms with being abandoned. She had found a place. She has been training with Leia for a year.

TROS brings in new information and a new chapter in Rey’s journey. She’d come to terms with being abandoned and now she is faced with the actual facts. Her parents were on the run and left her on Jakku to save her from Palpatine and now she is going to face him. Not only that, but she has powers similar to Palpatine’s and truly fears she might become him. It does cause her to revisit being abandoned, but she had come to terms with the abandonment and that piece really doesn’t impact the story. The revelation that her parents left her to save her comes to light and then is overshadowed by one of them being a Palpatine and what that means for Rey. So she doesn’t go revisit being abandoned. She had already found her place and that is solidified by finding out Leia and Luke knew and when the Jedi spirits support her in the final conflict.

Post
#1431827
Topic
In defense of Rey Palpatine in <em>The Rise of Skywalker</em>, and why I do not think it undermines her arc in <em>The Last Jedi</em>.
Time

TestingOutTheTest said:

yotsuya said:

TestingOutTheTest said:

yotsuya said:

TestingOutTheTest said:

WARNING: There is a link to /r/saltierthancrait. If you despise that sub, I don’t recommend reading it.

TLJ give no motive why Rey’s parents left her on Jakku.

That’s the point. When Rey admits her parents were nobody, it meant they had no good, actual reason to abandon her, it meant they did this all for nothing, that they didn’t care about nor love Rey, they didn’t give a shit about her. It meant that, to her parents, she is worthless. Even if you cut out Kylo Ren’s following lines, it still has the same meaning. I heavily recommend you re-read the section of her TLJ arc in my actual post itself, to understand what I’m saying.

It’s even framed that way in TLJ. Why else is she not affected by the truth by the time we meet her at Crait? Because she’s clearly moved on from her parents and accepted that they did throw her away like garbage, that they did think she was worthless, and now she’s relying on the Resistance for validation.

That is clearly what Rey believes at the time. If you read about kids who have been abandoned, they can have many conflicting feelings, emotions, memories. Rey has been clinging to the idea that they will come back for her. Again, very typical for someone who has been abandoned. Kylo twists her memories (he was in her mind searching for the map so he likely picked up a lot more that he later found useful). He amplifies that feeling that although she hopes her parents will come back, she doesn’t know of a good reason why they left her in the first place. He is trying to pursuade her to join him and he is the one saying her parents were junk traders, nobodies, that Rey had no place in the story, that they sold her off for drinking money and are dead in a poppers grave in the Jakku desert. Rey said they were nobodies, but Kylo filled in the rest. Probably all things she had though at some point, but none of it true.

I just watched the scene and caught something so many have missed. Here Kylo is saying let the old die while at the same time he is doing exactly what we have seen every Sith do, try to turn their opponent and make them their apprentice/partner. I find it historical that here is his saying he wants to break with the past while repeating the past. The irony is beautiful.

I’ll give you a few comparison examples or something like these, to hammer my Rey pointer in.

Example 1.

You’ve probably seen Finding Nemo. Coral is killed by the barracuda and this heavily affects Marlin, he becomes overprotective of his son Nemo to make sure he doesn’t end up in danger, to avoid facing the same trauma went through when losing Coral.

Imagine if the third movie came out and blatantly revealed to us that (surprise!) Coral never actually died in the first place. This would undermine the entire first movie, including Marlin’s character arc - especially since it was the thing that made his arc necessary in the first place.

If you can say with a straight face that, “Oh, but bringing back Coral DOESN’T undermine Finding Nemo, because we NEVER saw the barracuda eat Coral!”, then I don’t know what to say.

Yeah, it doesn’t change the initial trauma or reaction to it. People have been writing that sort of story as long as stories have been told.

Example 2.

Imagine if Return of the Jedi revealed that Darth Vader was lying to Luke about his father’s identity in Empire. That would undermine the point of “I am your father…”, since it was there for this reason: “How is Luke going to deal with the revelation of Darth Vader being his father?”

If you can say with a straight face that, “Oh, but Darth Vader lying DOESN’T undermine Empire, because we had no reason to believe he was telling the truth!”, then I don’t know what to say.

That is exactly what I am saying. Perhaps you have forgotten the three years of endless debate on whether or not he was telling the truth.

See my point?

Also, as the other user stated, Rey is the one who admits her parents were nobody, not Kylo. He gets her into admitting the truth she has hidden away, then Rey herself admits they were nobody. He’s just elaborating or adding onto what it meant.

And there was absolutely no indication that “Rey’s parents were nobody” or anything else I said about that was otherwise in The Last Jedi itself.

If you read about kids who have been abandoned, they can have many conflicting feelings, emotions, memories.

Star Wars is a fictional universe. It doesn’t have to follow reality. (You might see it as ironic since it came from me, who detailed on how Rey has a core belief of self-worthlessness, but then, again, Star Wars picks up on some things from reality and doesn’t at times.)

In TLJ we have Kylo badgering Rey, telling her she remembers and she admits they were nobody (that is as far as Rey went, but Kylo went on to describe a scenario that we have no verification of). When we pick of the conversation in TROS, Kylo says that Rey’s parents were nobody because they wanted to be. They sold her to protect her. The only part of the TLJ conversation that was negated were the lies Kylo told (or perhaps they were what Rey had suspected or what Unkar Plutt had told her) that went beyond nobody. Nobody was confirmed in TROS.

But you really don’t get deeper story telling if you get stuck on what seems true in one chapter cannot be countered later. That sort of reversal is a major part of story telling. Characters actions revolve around what they believe to be true. When they learn it is not true, they adjust accordingly. We already have that with Ben telling Luke that Vader betrayed and murdered his father. Luke’s actions up until that reveal in TESB are based on that, but his actions after that are based on the new information. And we already know that he believes Vader, but he confirms it with Yoda. And yet we have that same thing play out with Rey’s parentage and it is shocking and horrible and it reconns everything that came before. Nonsense. It is just a tool of story telling. One that has happened in real life so often that we know how the human brain reacts to such things.

Face it, TROS doesn’t contradict a word of TLJ that comes from a trusted source. Not a word. It only contradicts what Kylo was saying to convince Rey to join him (which didn’t even work).

I’m saying Rey’s parents being bad people was the truth (from a storytelling perspective) or else her arc in TLJ of moving past her awful, shitty parents would be f%$kin’ pointless - which is what happens in TRoS anyways.

But her parents are not good or bad, they are just gone. Kylo fills in that they are bad, but nothing in TLJ requires that or confirms it. They left her. that is a pretty bad thing for parents to do. TROS just adds the lone exception - unless they do it to save your life. But the reason in TROS doesn’t matter at all to Rey’s journey because it is the abandonment itself that Rey has to come to terms with. That is why TROS does nothing to Rey’s previous journey. Her journey in TFA and TLJ is all about her parents leaving her and her imagining they were coming back, coming to terms with the reality that they were never coming back and that her place in the story was the chance encounter of running into BB-8 and Finn on Jakku. But even TLJ gives hints that there could be more to it. Snoke figured it would be Luke to come and fight Kylo, but the force produced someone new, a scavenger girl. Her journey in TROS is coming to terms, not with her parents and being abandoned, but an evil grandfather who either wants to killer her or possess her and the powers she may have inherited from him.

Post
#1431656
Topic
Return of the Jedi is grossly misunderstood
Time

imperialscum said:

yotsuya said:

Battleships were far from limited. They had a proven track record of being able to sink other ships and could bombard the shore at a fair distance. The Aircraft Carrier proved it was better able to sink other ships, but nothing beat a battleship pounding the shore. The last Battleships were retired in the 1990’s, after doing shore bombardment in every conflict up through Desert Storm. But it became more cost effective and accurate to use missiles so they were finally retired. The same way satellite photographs forced the retirement of the SR-71.

I would say that battleships were extremely limited for what they were designed for. Actually, they had a very poor track record. Since the emergence of HMS Dreadnought (which is where a modern battleship starts) in 1906 and until WW2, there was basically just a single noteworthy battleship engagement, i.e., Battle of Jutland in 1916. And in that engagement, torpedo boats basically already showed how useless battleships can be in their primary role. WW2 then finally sealed their fate as one of the most useless and expensive weapons ever.

To be relegated to shore bombardment role is like going from a king to a bagger. Not to mention it is a role that can be (and also was) done just as effectively by much cheaper cruisers, since shore bombardment is basically a suppressive fire rather than anything that would actually cause any physically damage to well dug in defenders.

Anyway, I think we went completely off topic now. 😃

Some things might seem off topic, but often circle back in a strangely logical way.

I think the Bizmark/Hood engagement was pretty significant. And our greatest ships have a history of shore bombardment that has been quite effective and necessary. Have you read the Marine song lyrics lately? You know those shores of Tripoli? USS Constitution and her sister ships bombarded the shore and were instrumental in the success of that engagement. The Star Spangled Banner was written about a ship bombardment of the shore. The area where the Battleships shone was the size and range of their guns, unmatched by anything prior to missiles except aircraft. So shore bombardment was not something they were reduced to, it was part of their purpose from the beginning. The bigger the gun the further out and the larger the shell. And a good team could get pretty accurate at the right distance.

But you are right that does stray from the Death Star. It didn’t need to be very accurate since it could destroy an entire planet. And even its version of shore bombardment, which we saw twice in Rogue One, didn’t need to be that accurate. Except it was. Direct hit on Jedda City and direct hit on the communications tower on Scarif. And in ROTJ, direct hits on several rebel ships. So again, we find the parallels and see that even for such an all powerful weapon, it can be toned down for lesser uses. Still, the rebels destroyed the first one and the second one because they can destroy planets. While under construction is an ideal time as it is more vulnerable. And in Palpatine’s arrogance, he has them finish the weapon, but not the shields. If that would have even stopped a ship from flying inside it. Why worry about finding a tiny exhaust port when you can just fly in and destroy it directly. Palpatine counted on his legion on the forest moon to keep his only protection safe. Oopsie.

Post
#1430892
Topic
Return of the Jedi is grossly misunderstood
Time

imperialscum said:

SparkySywer said:

imperialscum said:

SparkySywer said:

imperialscum said:

SparkySywer said:

Servii said:

I personally think most of the issues people point to are fairly surface-level stuff that doesn’t really damage the movie as a whole. A second Death Star makes sense in-universe.

Return of the Jedi is a great movie, but I kind of think this is a stretch. The last one didn’t work, why would a second one with essentially no changes work this time? Palpatine gets a surprise attack on the Rebels I guess, but he still dies, they still lose the Sanctuary Moon, and the loss on Endor doomed the Empire.

Just because your expensive military hardware is destroyed in a battle, you do not simply stop making that hardware. When a country lost a capital warship during the World War I or World War II, they did not just say “oh that did not work, let’s stop building new ones” or “oh that did not work, let’s just stick to building small torpedo boats instead”.

If capital warships were incredibly expensive and had a well known, easily exploitable weak point that leads to total, irreparable destruction, they probably might have said that.

Except that the weak point you refer to was not well known (it took Alliance a great effort to find out about it), and it was not easily exploitable (without a pilot with rare force abilities it was impossible to do it, as clearly shown in the film).

By Return of the Jedi, it was well known, and it’s clearly easily exploitable because they easily exploit it the second time.

And besides, who says they did not fix it for the DS2?

The indie arthouse kino filme known as “Return of the Jedi”

The only reason why ships could fly inside it was because it was only 1/4 finished by the time of ROTJ.

In other words, not fixed. Edit: Or, as Yotsuya says, you could view it as them replacing one easily exploitable weakness with another that’s even worse. But if you take Rogue One’s word for it (maybe you do maybe you don’t), they literally did jack to fix the problem.

No matter which way you slice it: The core of the Death Star was too easy to put bombs inside of. Fair mistake, people harp on ANH too much for it. You have to exhaust heat somehow, and it literally took magic powers to take down the First Death Star. But they made it a thousand times easier for the Second. No excuse.

This is an extremely silly argument. It is basically like saying that a car model does not have wheels and doors, while looking at an unfinished example at the beginning of production line in a factory. Of course, unfinished DS2 had weaknesses, but it was not designed to be unfinished…

Now going to my analogy, unlike DS in Star Wars, real-life incredibly expensive capital warships (i.e., battleships) did actually have several well known, easily exploitable weak points, i.e., against attacks from relatively inexpensive aircraft or torpedo boats. Yet they were still building them for decades after those weak points were evident.

I’m no military tactician, but I imagine it’s because they aren’t actually easily exploitable. At least, I hope not. Because if they are actually sending capital warships with weaknesses so easily exploitable they get murked before they manage to even do anything (like the DS2 did), military waste is a much, much bigger issue than I thought it was.

In general military is huge waste of money purely from economy point of view. Most weapons that are built are never even used once. But in rare cases when you need them, they might save your country. Same with the battleship type of warships. Even though they were proven completely useless, they could have somehow turned out critical in some unforeseen situation, therefore countries could not gable with its safety. In the end, hindsight is 20/20.

Battleships were far from limited. They had a proven track record of being able to sink other ships and could bombard the shore at a fair distance. The Aircraft Carrier proved it was better able to sink other ships, but nothing beat a battleship pounding the shore. The last Battleships were retired in the 1990’s, after doing shore bombardment in every conflict up through Desert Storm. But it became more cost effective and accurate to use missiles so they were finally retired. The same way satellite photographs forced the retirement of the SR-71.

Post
#1430156
Topic
In defense of Rey Palpatine in <em>The Rise of Skywalker</em>, and why I do not think it undermines her arc in <em>The Last Jedi</em>.
Time

To understand TLJ, you have to look at how the movie ends. How it ties up the story. Most of the supposed ethos or philosophy of the film stems from things in the middle that that movie itself upends by the end of the film. It takes Abrams mess from TFA and sets up the finale. I’ve had conversations about how TLJ was about let the past die, when the finale clearly says the opposite. TLJ exists as the middle of a trilogy. Johnson wisely kept the point of his story self contained to that film only and he explored some very tight character arcs that he completed. Finn finds a reason to live and fight for the Resistance, Poe learns how to be a leader instead of a hotshot, and Rey takes up the mantle of Jedi and hero and part of the story. The “anyone can be a Jedi” applies more to the young broom boy. But Abrams transferred it to Finn in TROS, though he somewhat failed to make it very clear. Rey’s parents remain nobody. We never learn their names. We learn one of them is the child of Palpatine. But the remain obscure nobodies. In the credits they are Rey’s Mother and Rey’s Father.

So I believe this conversation stems from a misunderstanding of TLJ. Abrams has stated he set out finish the story Johnson had continued. And if you understand how movies are made, Abrams started with Trevorrow’s script and then changed things up. He found something larger to give the story more power and risk and I think it completes the trilogy beautifully. I think the only flawed film is TFA which sets things up rather badly and didn’t give Johnson a lot of room for where things had to go. And he did get Abrams to change a few things so that TLJ would work better. And Abrams was a producer on TLJ. Don’t forget that. So he didn’t come in to put back his story. He didn’t really have one. And bringing back Palpatine was genius. It so echoes the origins of Star Wars and ties things back all the way to Episode I. And unlike ROTJ that ended with Luke being tortured and Anakin’s redemption and throwing Palpatine down that shaft (to die off screen leaving the possibility that he was not completely gone that was explored before), Rey faces down Palpatine and and defeats him in a very Jedi way - by not attacking him, but by defending herself against him and turning his lighting back on him. Luke is touted as this great Jedi in ROTJ and yet he was not the one to deal with Palpatine. He sacrificed himself rather than fight, which gave Anakin a path back, but didn’t really deal with Palpatine except as a side effect. Of all the film endings, TROS is one of the two most satisfying because it is very final. Rey destroys Palpatine and all his followers. There is no one to bring him back this time.

And I think this idea that TROS rewrites TLJ also comes from how some felt about TLJ and not from any actual part of the story.

Post
#1429746
Topic
In defense of Rey Palpatine in <em>The Rise of Skywalker</em>, and why I do not think it undermines her arc in <em>The Last Jedi</em>.
Time

JakeRyan17 said:

Yeah, that doesn’t work still. Her parents being nobody was about her not feeling like a part of this big and important conflict. Her grandfather being the biggest and most important part of this almost-century of conflict does contradict that. It contradicts her emotional arc of having to create self-worth, rather than her importance being externally from who her parents and grandparents were.

Her feelings of worthlessness don’t come across at all in Rise of Skywalker. It’s a feeling that she must be evil because Palpatine is evil. And overcoming that is literally what Luke already went through with Vader. It’s reductive to Rey as a character on a storytelling level, repositioning her again as a proxy for Luke rather than an autonomous character, and it’s also reductive to her arc that she already went through in Last Jedi to learn that she is her own person regardless of who her family was.

It’s just bad writing. Like it all you want, maybe it helps you with the accusations that she was a “Mary Sue” or whatever. It doesn’t make up for the fact that it was bad writing that hurt the character and story. Maybe that can and will be fixed, but it hasn’t been yet.

A grandfather who wants her dead. And then a grandfather who wants her to attack him so he can take over her body. Just all sorts of good feelings there. No, the story is really about Rey’s self worth. She starts with depending on her family coming back for her. When she is shown that is never going to happen, she transfers that to the OT heroes. But Han dies and Luke won’t leave Ach-to. Kylo tries to convince her that she has no place in the story. But Leia makes a place for her. When we start TROS, Leia becomes her teacher. And she still thinks she is unworthy. She finds out she is a Palpatine and she feels even less worthy. She is now the enemy. She tries to hide, but Luke sets her straight. Then when she calls on the Jedi in her greatest need, they are there. They support her. The show she is worthy. Not because of whose family she came from, but because of who she is as her own person. She defeats Palpatine because she casts aside preconceived notions, which she and the audience have had since the story started, and comes into herself. She is Rey. She takes the name Skywalker to show that she rejects her Palpatine lineage. So every piece of her story builds on what has come before and TROS doesn’t retcon anything. In the end she has found herself and her purpose. And it was not based on who her parents or grandparents were.

Post
#1428860
Topic
In defense of Rey Palpatine in <em>The Rise of Skywalker</em>, and why I do not think it undermines her arc in <em>The Last Jedi</em>.
Time

TestingOutTheTest said:

yotsuya said:

TestingOutTheTest said:

WARNING: There is a link to /r/saltierthancrait. If you despise that sub, I don’t recommend reading it.

TLJ give no motive why Rey’s parents left her on Jakku.

That’s the point. When Rey admits her parents were nobody, it meant they had no good, actual reason to abandon her, it meant they did this all for nothing, that they didn’t care about nor love Rey, they didn’t give a shit about her. It meant that, to her parents, she is worthless. Even if you cut out Kylo Ren’s following lines, it still has the same meaning. I heavily recommend you re-read the section of her TLJ arc in my actual post itself, to understand what I’m saying.

It’s even framed that way in TLJ. Why else is she not affected by the truth by the time we meet her at Crait? Because she’s clearly moved on from her parents and accepted that they did throw her away like garbage, that they did think she was worthless, and now she’s relying on the Resistance for validation.

That is clearly what Rey believes at the time. If you read about kids who have been abandoned, they can have many conflicting feelings, emotions, memories. Rey has been clinging to the idea that they will come back for her. Again, very typical for someone who has been abandoned. Kylo twists her memories (he was in her mind searching for the map so he likely picked up a lot more that he later found useful). He amplifies that feeling that although she hopes her parents will come back, she doesn’t know of a good reason why they left her in the first place. He is trying to pursuade her to join him and he is the one saying her parents were junk traders, nobodies, that Rey had no place in the story, that they sold her off for drinking money and are dead in a poppers grave in the Jakku desert. Rey said they were nobodies, but Kylo filled in the rest. Probably all things she had though at some point, but none of it true.

I just watched the scene and caught something so many have missed. Here Kylo is saying let the old die while at the same time he is doing exactly what we have seen every Sith do, try to turn their opponent and make them their apprentice/partner. I find it historical that here is his saying he wants to break with the past while repeating the past. The irony is beautiful.

I’ll give you a few comparison examples or something like these, to hammer my Rey pointer in.

Example 1.

You’ve probably seen Finding Nemo. Coral is killed by the barracuda and this heavily affects Marlin, he becomes overprotective of his son Nemo to make sure he doesn’t end up in danger, to avoid facing the same trauma went through when losing Coral.

Imagine if the third movie came out and blatantly revealed to us that (surprise!) Coral never actually died in the first place. This would undermine the entire first movie, including Marlin’s character arc - especially since it was the thing that made his arc necessary in the first place.

If you can say with a straight face that, “Oh, but bringing back Coral DOESN’T undermine Finding Nemo, because we NEVER saw the barracuda eat Coral!”, then I don’t know what to say.

Yeah, it doesn’t change the initial trauma or reaction to it. People have been writing that sort of story as long as stories have been told.

Example 2.

Imagine if Return of the Jedi revealed that Darth Vader was lying to Luke about his father’s identity in Empire. That would undermine the point of “I am your father…”, since it was there for this reason: “How is Luke going to deal with the revelation of Darth Vader being his father?”

If you can say with a straight face that, “Oh, but Darth Vader lying DOESN’T undermine Empire, because we had no reason to believe he was telling the truth!”, then I don’t know what to say.

That is exactly what I am saying. Perhaps you have forgotten the three years of endless debate on whether or not he was telling the truth.

See my point?

Also, as the other user stated, Rey is the one who admits her parents were nobody, not Kylo. He gets her into admitting the truth she has hidden away, then Rey herself admits they were nobody. He’s just elaborating or adding onto what it meant.

And there was absolutely no indication that “Rey’s parents were nobody” or anything else I said about that was otherwise in The Last Jedi itself.

If you read about kids who have been abandoned, they can have many conflicting feelings, emotions, memories.

Star Wars is a fictional universe. It doesn’t have to follow reality. (You might see it as ironic since it came from me, who detailed on how Rey has a core belief of self-worthlessness, but then, again, Star Wars picks up on some things from reality and doesn’t at times.)

In TLJ we have Kylo badgering Rey, telling her she remembers and she admits they were nobody (that is as far as Rey went, but Kylo went on to describe a scenario that we have no verification of). When we pick of the conversation in TROS, Kylo says that Rey’s parents were nobody because they wanted to be. They sold her to protect her. The only part of the TLJ conversation that was negated were the lies Kylo told (or perhaps they were what Rey had suspected or what Unkar Plutt had told her) that went beyond nobody. Nobody was confirmed in TROS.

But you really don’t get deeper story telling if you get stuck on what seems true in one chapter cannot be countered later. That sort of reversal is a major part of story telling. Characters actions revolve around what they believe to be true. When they learn it is not true, they adjust accordingly. We already have that with Ben telling Luke that Vader betrayed and murdered his father. Luke’s actions up until that reveal in TESB are based on that, but his actions after that are based on the new information. And we already know that he believes Vader, but he confirms it with Yoda. And yet we have that same thing play out with Rey’s parentage and it is shocking and horrible and it reconns everything that came before. Nonsense. It is just a tool of story telling. One that has happened in real life so often that we know how the human brain reacts to such things.

Face it, TROS doesn’t contradict a word of TLJ that comes from a trusted source. Not a word. It only contradicts what Kylo was saying to convince Rey to join him (which didn’t even work).

Post
#1428859
Topic
Return of the Jedi is grossly misunderstood
Time

You don’t scrap the idea, you fix the problem. The navy’s of the world did not scrap battleships after WWII becuase the Arizona and HMS Hood were so easily destroyed (both with a single shot), but because the Aircraft Carrier out performed it and proved to be a much more formidable weapon. And still the US used Battleships for another 60 years. You don’t get rid of technology because there is a flaw, you fix the flaw and try again. So the first Death Star was destroyed by one pilot in an X-wing with a lucky shot to a vulnerable point. What does any sane super power do? Build another without that flaw. Except that the Emperor got cocky and allowed to the location to be revealed and once they got the shield down, they didn’t need a lucky shot, but skilled pilots. So flaw fixed only for another, bigger flaw to show up.

Post
#1428616
Topic
In defense of Rey Palpatine in <em>The Rise of Skywalker</em>, and why I do not think it undermines her arc in <em>The Last Jedi</em>.
Time

TestingOutTheTest said:

WARNING: There is a link to /r/saltierthancrait. If you despise that sub, I don’t recommend reading it.

TLJ give no motive why Rey’s parents left her on Jakku.

That’s the point. When Rey admits her parents were nobody, it meant they had no good, actual reason to abandon her, it meant they did this all for nothing, that they didn’t care about nor love Rey, they didn’t give a shit about her. It meant that, to her parents, she is worthless. Even if you cut out Kylo Ren’s following lines, it still has the same meaning. I heavily recommend you re-read the section of her TLJ arc in my actual post itself, to understand what I’m saying.

It’s even framed that way in TLJ. Why else is she not affected by the truth by the time we meet her at Crait? Because she’s clearly moved on from her parents and accepted that they did throw her away like garbage, that they did think she was worthless, and now she’s relying on the Resistance for validation.

That is clearly what Rey believes at the time. If you read about kids who have been abandoned, they can have many conflicting feelings, emotions, memories. Rey has been clinging to the idea that they will come back for her. Again, very typical for someone who has been abandoned. Kylo twists her memories (he was in her mind searching for the map so he likely picked up a lot more that he later found useful). He amplifies that feeling that although she hopes her parents will come back, she doesn’t know of a good reason why they left her in the first place. He is trying to pursuade her to join him and he is the one saying her parents were junk traders, nobodies, that Rey had no place in the story, that they sold her off for drinking money and are dead in a poppers grave in the Jakku desert. Rey said they were nobodies, but Kylo filled in the rest. Probably all things she had though at some point, but none of it true.

I just watched the scene and caught something so many have missed. Here Kylo is saying let the old die while at the same time he is doing exactly what we have seen every Sith do, try to turn their opponent and make them their apprentice/partner. I find it historical that here is his saying he wants to break with the past while repeating the past. The irony is beautiful.

Then in TROS Kylo starts off with telling her he never lied to her (very true, but he did throw out some guesses), that her parents were no one because they chose to be. He makes her remember (as she holds the dagger that killed them and had already heard the echo of her scream for them to come back). That they sold her to protect her.

In both instances Kylo’s goal is the same, to turn Rey. He is using Rey’s situation to his advantage. The TLJ scene does not reveal much truth. If you take Kylo as being 100% forthright you are totally misreading his character. In TROS he learns more and figures out how to twist it to his advantage. He is building doubt in Rey’s mind. And it works. He so convinces her that she is destined for evil that she runs off to Acto-to. Luke is able to break what Kylo did by showing her that he and Leia already knew and that it doesn’t matter. She is not destined to be evil just because of her grandfather anymore than Luke was destined to be evil because of his father.

The idea that anyone can be a Jedi remains intact in TLJ. Nothing in TROS changes that. Sure we find out that Rey is someone, but we also find out that her parents were not. So whatever abilities she inherited from her grandfather skipped a generation. Who your parents are does not dictate who you have to be. Anyone can be a Jedi. Anyone can be a Sith. If anything we see in TROS that because Rey is a Palatine does not mean she must be a Sith, a similar and yet opposite message from TLJ and very complimentary. They both further the narrative that we each make our own destiny. Nothing is pre-ordained by our parentage.

It really resets the Skywalker saga. I’ve noticed that there is this idea out there that you have to have force sensitivity in your family to be a Jedi. In TPM and Clone Wars that is firmly established to NOT be the case. None of these great Jedi we see had children to pass on their powers. Each one was effectively the last of their line. Then along comes Anakin and breaks the rules, marries Padme, and they have twins and both twins are strong with the force. While I think Lucas reconned it (Leia was originally 16 and Luke 19) to make them siblings, what you see of Leia in ANH shows someone strong willed. Even Vader can’t get out of her what she did with the Death Star plans. But Rey is not a Skywalker. She is not from a Jedi family. Yet she becomes a Jedi… she takes on the Skywalker name, claiming the Skywalker parentage. She does not become a Sith, which is her parentage. So TROS reframes anyone can become a Jedi into even a Sith descendant can become a Jedi. So the TROS story only enhances the anyone can become a Jedi theme from TLJ. Why? Because JJ didn’t set out to recton or change anything in TLJ, but to carry the story forward in a new way.

Post
#1428613
Topic
In defense of Rey Palpatine in <em>The Rise of Skywalker</em>, and why I do not think it undermines her arc in <em>The Last Jedi</em>.
Time

SparkySywer said:

act on instinct said:

SparkySywer said:

Either way, if he was manipulating her here, why not go with the Palpatine manipulation right off the bat? Pull the same stuff he says in TRoS instead of waiting a year?

Kylo didn’t know by then, Palpatine told him on Exegol. If anything the question becomes why did Palpatine do the waiting.

So then he isn’t lying to manipulate her.

He was using what he knew to manipulate her. Common dark side tactic. An outright lie can be seen through with the force, but something that is true or believed to be true can be a powerful weapon when it is properly twisted.

Post
#1428497
Topic
In defense of Rey Palpatine in <em>The Rise of Skywalker</em>, and why I do not think it undermines her arc in <em>The Last Jedi</em>.
Time

TFA and TLJ give no motive why Rey’s parents left her on Jakku. Kylo implies they sold her for drinking money. But Kylo did no know the truth. We are given no information on why Rey’s parents left her, only guesses before JJ Abrams gives us the facts. Facts often rewrite what we think, but they were true all along. So there is no contradiction about their motives, only rumor vs. truth. We gat that in TLJ with what Luke did to spark Ben’s turn to the dark side. The truth about Rey’s parents just takes longer to reveal. Why? Because that is a key piece of who Rey is and everything blocking her from moving forward in all three stories. But in TROS we get an answer that lets Rey truly move on from it.

Post
#1428235
Topic
In defense of Rey Palpatine in <em>The Rise of Skywalker</em>, and why I do not think it undermines her arc in <em>The Last Jedi</em>.
Time

SparkySywer said:

The way the scene’s shot and the way Adam Driver and Daisy Ridley give their performances, it makes it clear that he’s just getting her to admit what she already knew was true. He may (may) be manipulating her, but he’s not manipulating the truth.

Either way, if he was manipulating her here, why not go with the Palpatine manipulation right off the bat? Pull the same stuff he says in TRoS instead of waiting a year? What happens when Rey finds out she’s not a nobody? Because that’s definitely going to eventually happen.

The ways of Palpatine are mysterious. He both wants to kill Rey and use Rey. This was also true of Luke in the OT.

Yes, Kylo makes Rey admit what she remembers about her parents. She did not know her parents had any connection to anything because they were on the run. JJ had some reason in mind why they didn’t come back for her. Trevorrow’s script did nothing to ever answer that question. JJ returned and found an answer that fit beautifully with both existing films. Palpatine had her parents killed because they were not willing to be used. And as long as Rey was opposing him, he wants her dead. But if she is willing, he can use her. He tells Kylo of her parentage and Kylo tells her. It was unknown before and Kylo uses that knowledge to mess with her yet again. He did it in TLJ with her being a nobody and he did it with her being a previously unknown Palpatine in TROS. The only change to the story of Rey’s past is that she remembered that her parents were running from something. This echoes back to Maz saying that Rey knew her parents were never coming back. When you look at the details of the stories, nothing in TROS conflicts or contradicts or rewrites anything in TLJ.

Post
#1428120
Topic
In defense of Rey Palpatine in <em>The Rise of Skywalker</em>, and why I do not think it undermines her arc in <em>The Last Jedi</em>.
Time

SparkySywer said:

yotsuya said:

The way TLJ is written, the whole “your parents were nobody” was all Kylo trying to turn her. So it being the unvarnished truth doesn’t make a lot of sense.

Rey’s the one who says it though, not Kylo.

But Kylo gets her to say it. He is goading her. He may have seen more in her memories, but in good dark side fashion, he uses only what will work for him.

Post
#1428118
Topic
Watching all three Original Star Wars films on &quot;May The Fourth Be With You&quot; Day
Time

I was able to treat myself to something special on 5/4. A local theater had a special showing of A New Hope. Social distancing protocols in place. I was curious what version they were going to show. It turned out to be the 2011 version. Except it wasn’t. As I watched I could instantly tell which verison and it had the usual major flaws, except the overall magenta tone that I am so used to and mad at with the DVD, HD, and Blu-ray was not there. Leia was not pink, the rebel soldiers were not lobsters, so of the overall color glitches were gone. In their place were shots that felt like one of us had done an overall color correction to fix it. I was quite surprised at that.

The theater had a special reason for showing ANH. It opened as a silent movie theater/vaudville house in 1920. When Star Wars came out it was their longest running movie their history. Then the theater closed for 20 years. Now it is a multi function event center. One thing about its age, it reminded me, not of any theater I had seen Star Wars in before, but a similar and far more ornate Fox theater I saw such movies as The Wilderness Family, Battlestar Galactica, Buck Roger, and The Black Hole in. The sound was so familiar. The uncurtained walls led to echoes. The sound system was modern with a modern 2k projector, but it was a nostalgic experience. C-3PO sounded like I might have seen it back then, but the base was modern and deep and shook the building. So much like that version of the film. Mostly like I saw it the first 10 time, but with SE bits. It did look good for the most part, but could look better. I would so have preferred it was the original or the new D+ version. But it was a great way to celebrate the day. And a great 13th theatrical viewing.

Post
#1427585
Topic
In defense of Rey Palpatine in <em>The Rise of Skywalker</em>, and why I do not think it undermines her arc in <em>The Last Jedi</em>.
Time

NeverarGreat said:

There is no version of the story in which Rey’s parents being the progeny of Palpatine are ‘nobody’. At the very least they have a claim to the remnants of the Empire, regardless of what Force power they do or do not have. Rey being the grandchild of Palpatine absolutely gives her a place in the story; it is literally a noble birth.

Rey throughout the trilogy is desperately searching for someone to validate her abilities and place in the story, and TLJ does the thematically necessary step of ripping that away from her. TROS gives it back on a silver platter.

Except that we very plainly see them on the run and making no claim on any of that. They literally are living as nobodies. They leave Rey (none to soon as they are murdered shortly after) on Jakku with Unkar Plutt. Rey is literally raised as a nobody and she has no idea her parents were anyone special. Palpatine’s reach was far, even after his death, and he killed his own child. The movie implies child, but clone has been suggested. But his child might not be much older than Luke and Leia. But in any case, Rey knew none of that. That is how Kylo got her to admit they were nobody. Before he turns around and in the next attempt tells her she is a Palpatine. It works very well for a progression to try to destabilize Rey and it appears to work.

It was obviuosly done for TROS and was not planned before that (or Trevorrow’s script would have something about it), but it works as a story progression.

Post
#1427493
Topic
In defense of Rey Palpatine in <em>The Rise of Skywalker</em>, and why I do not think it undermines her arc in <em>The Last Jedi</em>.
Time

The way TLJ is written, the whole “your parents were nobody” was all Kylo trying to turn her. So it being the unvarnished truth doesn’t make a lot of sense. The way TROS was written, Kylo carries on from where he thought he had pulled her down with the added information that Palpatine was her grandfather. We really have no idea now much that Kylo told her was true until Luke confirms that she is indeed a Palpatine and He and Leia both knew. It can echo some of Luke’s initial hesitation to teach her in TLJ. Really, most of the problems with the ST are not what is in the ST, but how people ran with things in each of the films. Fans latched onto Rey Nobody. Sure, Rey was okay with that. But the key piece was that parents were nobody special remained. Her parents had abandoned any connection to the name Palpatine and were living on the lamb so she was raised as just a person who wasn’t likely to have a place in an epic tale, but the force called to her. Her parents evidently had no force skills so they literally were nothing special. Any inherited ability skipped a generation. So her turning out to be a Palpatine completely fits with what we saw in TLJ. It doesn’t rewrite anything, except for fans who latched on to that and took it as absolute truth. Those who fall to the dark side use pieces of the truth to try to turn or influence other. A half truth is better than a lie. We saw Dooku, Vader, and Palpatine all do it. Kylo doing it is in line with that.