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yotsuya

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2-Dec-2008
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7-Aug-2023
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Post
#1549788
Topic
schorman's HDTV Star Wars Saga Preservation (Released)
Time

This set of the films is the DVD version in HD. For any of the changes made in 2011, this set has the best copy of the earlier shots. R2 before the rocks were added, puppet Yoda in TMP, etc. For ROTS, ANH, TESB, and ROTJ, there is little to no difference in the root source. For TPM, this is the original transfer from the master tapes. The made a new transfer for the 2011 BR. For AOTC, the colors an grain are noticeably different from this to the BR. That is the one film where this set has a better version than the BR.

Post
#1524813
Topic
Missing frames: Travelling from Tattooine to the Death Star? Millenium falcon Leaves Death Star?
Time

Remember that for Star Wars (1977) they were creating the visual language that we have become used to. If you find something that does not fit, it likely means that it was done on a budget and schedule and may not fit quite what you think the rest of the saga follows. It was first so Lucas was making this all up as he went. That film has more visual gaffs than the others. So what you have noted is not at all surprising.

Post
#1519759
Topic
<strong>The 1978 Star Wars Holiday Special</strong> - a general discussion thread
Time

I just watched the Holiday Special. It has 3 major problems. Well 4. For one it is 1978 TV quality. But the other 3 are more integral. 1st, the Wookie scenes are in Wookie and not subtitled. 2nd, the musical numbers are very dated. 3rd Harvey Corman. Love him in a good comedy sketch, but he was so very wrong for this. In a perfect world where we could see an official SE of this, I would remove 2 of Harvey Corman’s characters and replace them with something modern but retro. Same with the music. And subtitle the Wookie scenes so the audience knows what they are talking about. And redo the horrible animation for the Boba Fett cartoon. Do that and it could be a charming little show, but as it is, it is mostly a horror that you had to live through to appreciate.

Post
#1519169
Topic
George Lucas: Star Wars Creator, Unreliable Narrator &amp; Time Travelling Revisionist...
Time

Mocata said:

Servii said:

I should clarify, there’s nothing inherently wrong with a creative changing their mind about something. All stories evolve in the telling of them, and writers are dynamic people who’s vision of their own work is prone to shifting over time.

For example, when JRR Tolkien wrote The Hobbit, it was just a straightforward children’s fantasy adventure story, in his mind. It wasn’t meant to be the prelude to the epic fantasy of LOTR. The Ring was just a magic ring Bilbo found, not the Ring of the Dark Lord himself, who also happened to be the Necromancer of Mirkwood. Tolkien even went back and rewrote the ending to the Gollum chapter of The Hobbit, to make the Ring more consistent with its portrayal in LOTR. And even when Tolkien first started writing LOTR, it started out as merely a sequel to The Hobbit, before ballooning into something bigger and grander.

In a similar way, Star Wars started out as just “the adventures of Luke Skywalker” before ballooning into a drama about the Skywalker family.

The point is, it’s ok that George’s story ideas morphed over time. The problem is that George tends to forget or deny that the change ever occurred. He says “It was always meant to be this way,” when it clearly wasn’t. That’s what people take issue with. If he were more upfront about having changed his mind about things, then people wouldn’t be misled into thinking otherwise.

George’s ideas morphed over time. But unlike Tolkien who loved the work, his languages, and spent time answering letters from fans… George seems to actively hate the fans who made the OOT a success, and doesn’t really like directing movies. The overall denial vibe is also very weird, but I think if the changes were any good people would complain a lot less. Instead it’s like he’s always working on a once classic car and all the tinkering is … well…

Yes, Tolkien didn’t try to get all the first editions of The Hobbit removed or pretend they didn’t happen. He explained that that changes were because the ring make Bilbo lie to hide it and then he fixed it later. So even the change fits into the overall story. George just seems to want to pretend that the current way is how it always was rather than let us enjoy the tale of his creative process. I prefer the tale.

Post
#1517691
Topic
Yotsuya's Two Saga Edits
Time

I decided that the best way to check my colors was to compare my work to 3 other versions. 4K77 1.4, GOUT (my color correction), and 4K97 IV (Grindhouse 2). So I laid them out in parallel and reduced each to 1/4 the screen. Mine is based on Oteedee’s D+77.

Oteedee did some fine work, but he didn’t address the flaws in the 2019 source. There are a lot of them. I have been sorting through those more than fixing things that inherant to the original 77 version. Several sequences have been problematic because they are so bad. The Blockade Runner interiors. The Lars dinner conversation. And the Death Star Battle. Other sections I have barely toucheded. Comparing them side by side makes some issues stand out. For instance, today I noticed that just as Han is turning around after corning the Stromtroopes, there is a shot of Chewy that is far too yellow. Now, 4K97 IV being a grindhouse, there is no real set color correction for it, so I’m just going by the general look. But I did find a rough color correction that brings it in line with 4K77 1.4. You can really see that they used the technicolor print as a master for re-color-correcting the negative. It shares some of the same flaws, such as green shadows. But overall it gives a good feel for where the colors should be.

I’ve had to revert quite a few shots to 4K77 because both the 2013 scan and the new scan show extreme fading and bad attempts to correct it. A few others just because they changed the shot. I found 4 new shots in battle sequence that they changed.

I really think I need to prepare a corrected OUT version.

Post
#1516760
Topic
How would you restructure Anakin's turn to the dark side in the Prequels?
Time

Well, I disagree with you on one point. I think having young Anakin was crucial. But I don’t think the story had enough in it. I think AOTC is the weakest point. I think that film should be totally reworked into something that shows that a key point to his turn was the many years of mentoring by Palpatine. And more needed to be done with the lines Kenobi first uttered in A New Hope. AOTC should be them coming back and this mission delays Anakin’s trials to be a Jedi Knight. So he is ready and needs no more teaching. We should see the friendship and camaraderie between Anakin and Kenobi. I would weave more about Darth Sideous manipulating the events the pull him to the dark side. So I think TPM could stand as is, AOTC needs a total rework, and ROTS a partial rework. We should know Darth Sideous is behind these things all along. Hide the reveal (not such a reveal to us longtime fans) but in such a way that when Palpatine reveals the truth, Anakin already knows. I’d have Mace arrive and have a huge battle between the Jedi Masters trying to arrest him and Palpatine with Anakin fighting by his side, horrified that they are trying to illegally seize power.

One of the biggest issues is that Anakin is still the whiny kid in AOTC, and he should be more solid and on the verge of his knighthood. It should be events that Sideous is orchestrating that pull him to the dark side. 13 years of mentoring, a feeling in Anakin that the Jedi don’t serve the Republic, make it more an outcome of his core beliefs. We only get a tiny hint of that when Anakin and Padme talk in the meadow in AOTC.

Lucas was too subtle and it hurt the trilogy.

Post
#1515943
Topic
Yotsuya's Two Saga Edits
Time

I’ve done the rough edits on all 6 films (contemplating edits to the ST). working on the final edits to Ep IV. I consider Ep III done. Eps V and VI shouldn’t take much, neither should Ep I. Ep II needs a lot of audio editing to make the visual edits fit. Ian’s dialog in Ep 5 was edited in surround and downmixed to Dolby Stereo to mix with the 93 LD audio. Eps I and III don’t require any audio editing - the original theatrical audio works.

I’ve found 4 additional shots that were … tweaked for ANH SE. I’ve pulled 5 other shots from 4K77 due to color fading. I am comparing 4K77 1.4, my color correction to the GOUT, a quick color correction to 4K97 IV scan (needs clean up), and D+77. After years of dealing with drastically different colors in different sources, I am amused that these 4 are so close. It really helps identify color issues in the newest scans.

Post
#1514846
Topic
Raiders of the Lost Ark 35mm LPP Theatrical Experience - v1.0 (Released)
Time

litemakr said:

RobotB9 said:

I’ve seen this discussion (yellow/gold tint on Raiders blu ray) on various sites, and I don’t want to get into a big discussion or step on any toes, but I’d like to relate my experiences with this movie as I was 18 and saw it when it first came out, and people who saw it in theaters should relate their experience for how it looked originally. If no one wants to hear another raiders color experience, by all means, ignore me.

When I first saw the movie, the one thing that stood out immediately was a very warm tint, and I may have remarked to my date (now my wife) how warm the movie was. Now mind you, I wasn’t into video or audio hobbies or equipment at this point in my life, but the warmth was immediately apparent to me. It looked like most outdoor scenes were shot in morning or evening light, but bright as normal daylight. The Nepal bar scenes were definitely warm looking (yellow/red tints). I saw the movie a couple of times in big theaters and it was always the same. When it first aired on television, I thought how it already looked old and faded and cold (no warm tint). Every release I’ve seen since then (only vhs and dvd) looked as if it was taken from an old faded videotape of the movie. It never looked right (or like I first saw it in theaters). It always seemed cold and somehow faded, and looked like a 50’s or 60’s faded movie.

When I first saw the 2012 Blu ray, I thought to myself, “Finally, this movie looks like I remember!” It’s warm and friendly looking again. Just my 2 cents, but the (2012) blu ray version looks closest to what I remember seeing in theaters. Now I’ll grant you, the cave shots may be a bit brighter, and some scenes look blurry (the spiders on their backs), so maybe not perfect, but good.

I’m not going to argue if someone wants the yellows toned down a bit, or darkens the movie a tad, or even if they want to perfectly correct the colors, but the blu ray is essentially the experience I had in theaters if you want the original theater look. With all the home releases viewed over the years, even people who saw it in theaters may have skewed memories of how warm this movie was, but my memory of how warm the movie was has actually stuck with me all these years, even before there was a yellow tint/no tint debate. Again, just my $.02.

Leo

With all due respect, your recollections are wrong. While some original prints may have looked warmer than others (Fuji prints in particular) absolutely none of them looked like the blu-ray because it was digitally color graded from scratch using a scan of the original negative. What many people don’t understand is that the negative DOES NOT have the theatrical color timing. It is low contrast and designed to be printed to interpositive film that will then show the correct contrast and that is where the color timing happens. Each shot is carefully color timed and balanced to have the correct exposure and color so scenes shot on different film stocks and cameras match. The interpositive has the correct look, not the negative. Prints are made based on the interpositive. So scanning a negative requires digitally recreating (or reimagining) the original look. In the case of Raiders, they took creative license and applied an orange/teal color scheme that would have been literally impossible to create with old photochemical color timing. So you definitely never saw that in original prints. A bit warmer, maybe, but not like the blu-ray.

All video releases up to the blu-ray were created from an interpolative, so they reflect the original timing to varying degrees. The faded look you mention would be more related to standard definition not having the best color reproduction and older scanning technology. The 4K release is based on the same negative scan used for the blu-ray, but they went back and removed the worst (but not all) of the revisionist color. They also did a lot more digital fixes and tweaks including one glaring error. But nothing approaching the changes in Star Wars.

The print this 35mm restoration is based on is an original Kodak print and reflects what most people would have seen back in 1981. Depending on the temperature of the projector light, the warmth could have varied, but would never have resulted in anything like the orange/teal look. I have also seen scans of 2 original Fuji prints, which are warmer, but look nothing like the blu-ray. There is some evidence that the color timing was tweaked in the 1983 re-release resulting in the bar scenes being warmer, so if you saw a release later than 1983 that could have been the case. But again, just warmer, not the blu-ray color grading.

Your general idea is correct, but at the very technical level, the original negative is the un-colorcorrected original. The color timing is done from the negative. They use it to make presentation prints (taken directly from the negative so a higher quality with less grain) and interpositives. The color timing is baked into the interpositive which then creates the internegatives (this is usually where subtitles are added, which is why the Star Wars GOUT is subtitle free because it was taken from a newer interpositive). The internegatives strike all the prints. so on a popular movie like Star Wars, the negative gets some heavy use as they have to make more interpositives.

35mm print preservation archives what the prints originally looked like. So viewing them is as close to going to the theater to see the original again as you can get. There is some interpretation, but in general they are very well done.

Post
#1514339
Topic
Young Indiana Jones... a preservation (* unfinished project *) - a mass of info &amp; ideas
Time

locutus2000 said:

I acquired the Japanese laserdisc boxset. Is there still a need for capturing these episodes?

I would hope there is. From the various pieces that have been posted above, the French version has pretty clear picture. The Japanese LD has burned in subtitles, but good picture and sound. They key part that needs restoration is the old Indy segments. That any any changes made to the body of the episodes.

I am a fan, but I have not watched it because they cut out old Indy - one of the things I enjoyed. The way I would go about this is to get the French and Japanese versions to color match and use the French version to restore what is covered by the burned in Japanese subtitles. But someone with access to both of those would have to let us know if that would work. I just found out season 1 was done and probably will check it out to see the quality.

Post
#1513944
Topic
Star Trek: The Original Series preservation (a WIP)
Time

AdmiralWasabi10191 said:

The audio from the Laserdiscs would be nice since it’d be a far greater bitrate compared to what’s on BD. Which is bullshit lossy instead of lossless.

It is always nice to archive LD’s. Even when much better quality is available, the comparison is invaluable. The Star Wars LD archived versions have been priceless even though the quality is hit or miss.

One thing to consider when comparing quality is not just what the bitrate is. The bitrate of a modern recording could be lower, and yet have far superior audio quality and clarity. Especially when talking about older audio. And for the old LD’s you have to determine which audio track the audio is stored in. If it is stored in the digital track, it is of modern quality (CD quality stereo audio). If it is in the analog track, it is no better than VHS or broadcast TV. So if these Star Trek LD’s have digital audio, they are indeed a higher quality recording. If the audio is in the analog track, the chances of it being better than a modern compressed audio stream is non-existent. And that doesn’t even get to the question of how good the recording is in the first place. And on top of that you have to know how good the source material is and how good the transfer was.

For instance, we have the different Star Wars audio tracks form different LD sources. The original 1977 dolby stereo (matrix surround encoded) is available on the older discs, but it is much inferior to later releases. Cleaned up audio from the film prints might actually be better. But the 1985 and 1993 audio mixes are available in the digital track and are far superior.

So the question for the Star Trek LD’s is what is the original source for the transfer? Is it the same prints used for the BR transfer? Or is there a generation difference? Was any clean up done to the audio? Any noise reduction or hiss removal? It is in the digital track or the analog track. To be higher quality than the compressed BR mono track it has to be from the same source, using a good transfer device, and stored in the digital track on the LD. Otherwise, even though it is compressed, the audio on the BR is going to be higher quality. Remember, it is mono stored in a stereo track. That can be compressed at 4:1 without any loss in quality (stereo can be compressed at 2:1 without any loss in quality). That is just the nature of audio recordings and data storage.

And the other question is did they do too much clean up to the BR audio? Too much clean up can damage the audio and remove intended sounds rather than just removing age and duplication related artifacts.

But to do any of these comparisons, we need a archive of the LD’s. This has been invaluable for Star Wars and it would be for TOS as well.

Post
#1513563
Topic
Star Trek: The Original Series preservation (a WIP)
Time

SpacemanDoug said:

yotsuya said:

PatrouilleduCosmos said:

I have made some side-by-side comparison between the US and Japanese LDs starting with the episode which has the most obvious audio changes, City on the Edge of Forever. I did encode both LDs with the exact same settings from my Pioneer player. Here’s a sample :

Picturewise, this is exactly the same transfer. Colors on the japanese release are a bit warmer, but this is the very same transfer. The exact same defects can be seen on both :

Surprisingly, the original “Goodnight Sweetheart” music has been kept on the Japanese LD, on both english and japanese tracks (even if the sleeve says the opposite).

There are some forced japanese subtitles here and there for scenes that haven’t been dubbed in Japan back in the 70s.

The Opening sequence looks like crap on the japanese LD and is from the second season. The original first season opening is on the bonus LD from the jap boxset.

The trailers are included AFTER each episode ending. Desilu/Paramount logos are not the same than on the US release. City on the edge have the Paramount zooming logo from 1968 whereas the US LD has the blue montain Paramount logo from the 70s.

The audio is of course much better on the japanese LD since its digital mono and can be transferred losslessly to a PC. The Japanese LDs also have chapters.

So yes, I would start from those japanese LDs, these are the only TOS release with the original digital mono sound.

Well, just from the scant details you included, the BR mono is the original. So the Japanese LD’s are not the only source.

Like I posted above, from what I can see from examining the audio streams, the original mono is preserved in the center channel of the 5.1 mix that first came out in 1999 in the 2 episode discs and then again in the clamshell box (which has Goodnight Sweetheart in City). The altered sounds are the mono sound, filtered and expanded to faux stereo, and added to the other channels in the mix to create a broader spacial feel to the sounds. They aren’t actually new sounds, but they are an alteration to the original, but the original is still there if you care to filter it out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ER6GsTr7I2o

This video is clearly taken from the 5.1 remix but has the OG visual effects, that “whoosh” at 0:25 is clearly a new sound effect and not the original 60s sound

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGnTfg-MUhs
for reference, go to 0:24, this is the original 60s sound effect

I hear the same sound effect moving from one side to the other. It is a simple matter to filter and create that effect from the original mono. So the sound has been remixed, but not fundamentally changed. And like I’ve said before, that is enhanced because the center channel is the original mono sound so when downmixed to stereo, those sounds are amplified because they get added to the mono.

Post
#1513384
Topic
Star Trek: The Original Series preservation (a WIP)
Time

PatrouilleduCosmos said:

I have made some side-by-side comparison between the US and Japanese LDs starting with the episode which has the most obvious audio changes, City on the Edge of Forever. I did encode both LDs with the exact same settings from my Pioneer player. Here’s a sample :

Picturewise, this is exactly the same transfer. Colors on the japanese release are a bit warmer, but this is the very same transfer. The exact same defects can be seen on both :

Surprisingly, the original “Goodnight Sweetheart” music has been kept on the Japanese LD, on both english and japanese tracks (even if the sleeve says the opposite).

There are some forced japanese subtitles here and there for scenes that haven’t been dubbed in Japan back in the 70s.

The Opening sequence looks like crap on the japanese LD and is from the second season. The original first season opening is on the bonus LD from the jap boxset.

The trailers are included AFTER each episode ending. Desilu/Paramount logos are not the same than on the US release. City on the edge have the Paramount zooming logo from 1968 whereas the US LD has the blue montain Paramount logo from the 70s.

The audio is of course much better on the japanese LD since its digital mono and can be transferred losslessly to a PC. The Japanese LDs also have chapters.

So yes, I would start from those japanese LDs, these are the only TOS release with the original digital mono sound.

Well, just from the scant details you included, the BR mono is the original. So the Japanese LD’s are not the only source.

Like I posted above, from what I can see from examining the audio streams, the original mono is preserved in the center channel of the 5.1 mix that first came out in 1999 in the 2 episode discs and then again in the clamshell box (which has Goodnight Sweetheart in City). The altered sounds are the mono sound, filtered and expanded to faux stereo, and added to the other channels in the mix to create a broader spacial feel to the sounds. They aren’t actually new sounds, but they are an alteration to the original, but the original is still there if you care to filter it out.

Post
#1513215
Topic
Star Trek: The Original Series preservation (a WIP)
Time

SpacemanDoug said:

PatrouilleduCosmos said:

yotsuya said:

SpacemanDoug said:

yotsuya said:

SpacemanDoug said:

yotsuya said:

SpacemanDoug said:

yotsuya said:

SpacemanDoug said:

yotsuya said:

SpacemanDoug said:

yotsuya said:

As a Star Trek fan and as someone who took the time to rip the BR disc into my streaming collection with the original soundtrack and FX, here are my comments on the originality and quality.

First the series was indeed messed with, but this first happened back in the 60’s. There are records of what opening titles each episode initially had and several of them have been changed. But that was not a new change and it was done to the original negatives.

Second, a must have for anyone looking into this is the soundtrack box set. It has all the original recordings as well as the new titles recordings. From that it is clear that all of the BR original soundtracks have the original music. None of them have been updates with the new recordings.

I’ve been watching Star Trek TOS faithfully since 1984. I am very well acquainted with what we had back then vs. what we have now. The colors prior to the recent scans are horrible. The command uniforms wash out to gold from their original avocado yellow-green. That happened in some FX shots anyway, but most of the shots should show a distinct green tint. That is how you know you are looking at a good scan. This was confirmed by James Cawley who was friends with Bill Theiss and secured a sample of the original uniform material which verified that it had a distinct green tint. Star Trek New Voyages/Phase II and Star Trek Continues fan productions used the correct colors for their uniforms.

The remastered versions corrected many small inconsistencies in the episodes and those are NOT reflected in the original cuts. Some are very subtle and would be easy to miss, but they definitely are not there in the original versions included in the blu-ray set.

Prior to home video release, we were subjected to edited versions on TV. 4 minutes was cut from each episode. the first time most people saw these (who had not collected the VHS or LD releases) was when the SciFi Channel aired the extended versions with commentary in 90 minutes slots. They aired the episodes twice, once with Shatner introducing and once with Nimoy. While the episode cut is the same, those versions had incorrect colors.

I am satisfied that the episodes as delivered on Blu-Ray, when played in their original form, are indeed original. In order to create the remastered version, they went back to the original negatives and scanned them. This represents the best version of the episodes. If you want to undo how clean they made them, add some film grain, but there was no release prior that is as good. I’ve seen them all. My understanding is that was the first time they went back to the negatives so in terms of picture and sound, they should be the most authentic to how they were aired originally.

Now, The Cage. That is a different story entirely. Gene owned the negative and a B&W print. Both complete. I do not know what transpired exactly. I’m sure NBC viewed a color print, but no one has mentioned it. But when it came time to do The Menagerie, Gene brought in the negative for them to use. He expected them to copy it. Instead they cut it up. I’m not clear on the sound, but I think the sound was a separate element. The original sound appears to be lost. Gene’s B&W print made the convention circut and received some damage over the years. One section of dialog, which was captured by an in room audio recording by a fan, was lost. When they went to do the first VHS release, he wanted The Cage included so they made the hybrid one. They took the audio and video from The Menagerie and created the first mixed cut. This was the first most fans had seen this. Then a miraculous thing happened. The cut footage was found. So the next video release (The mixed version came out as episode 1, the restored version came out as episode 99 - I had both VHS tapes and was very pissed off that people thought 99 was colorized). And you can tell where the footage changes because it was not the same scan. They literally scanned the missing parts and edited them back in. But that missing dialog was not included. When they released the DVD version, both parts were scanned the same way so the footage was more consistent. When the BR came out, they had rescanned it again and you can’t tell the difference. But in each case the edit where there is missing footage is noticeable because the video is different in each edit. But really only in that one spot.

Now I can’t speak for the quality of the audio tracks on the LD vs. the DVD vs. the Blu-ray. I have not looked at those. But my experience with Star Wars indicates that those old LD AC3 tracks are as good as any modern soundtrack. The analog ones likely have more noise, and given the copy history of these episodes, probably has a lot more noise which is not original to the episodes. Until the remastered, they were using a film print as the source for all the home video releases. So the Remastered (and hence the original version on the Blu-ray) went back to the negatives and is made from the best sources. It should be the most faithful to the original you can get and I am satisfied with that. No, some of the episodes are not totally original as to how their originally aired, but they are faithful to their first rerun (Which is when some of the opening titles were changed).

But that soundtrack box set for TOS is a must for anyone investigating the sounds of TOS. It is full of information and glorious music (not just the often repeated tracks form previous TOS soundtrack releases).

Ok so from what it seems like you’re saying, the mono tracks on the BDs of TOS are not downmixes

Do they still have the new sound effects the remixes have anywhere?

No. Star Trek has always been mono. Every version I have had. The Remastered is the first to have any stereo. There are some very clear shots were you can tell. As I said, having that TOS soundtrack collection makes it very clear. Great liner notes. I’ll have to check if I still have the DVD set. I do have a few of the prior DVD release. But I had never heard the the main title in stereo until I put in the BR and watched the remastered version. And I’ve had a surround system for 30 years. I can’t speak for what container they loaded the sound into, but there was never any stereo effect or edit or surround ever. And mixing a mono track into a 5.1 container doesn’t mean they did anything other than mix it so it came out the right speakers (likely the center or front L/R). For instance. Every CD is stereo. Now whether that is duplicated mono tracks (as is the case with all the Star Trek TOS music), stereo recorded tracks, or matrixed surround (which can expand to up to 5 tracks via a decoder) is another matter. Same with DVD and BR audio. You can have mono, stereo, matrixed stereo, 5.1, 6.1, 7.1, 1.1, 4.0, etc. It is a matter of compatibility with playback systems and what container they need to be in to work right. At that point it becomes a technical issue and not one of remixing the audio to something new. Don’t be fooled by a disc saying it has 5.1 surround. Star Trek was not mixed for surround until 2006, and even then only the opening titles and added sound FX. The mono track was contained for playback on 5.1 systems, nothing more. No FX were added, the music was mono. Even in the remastered there are minimal changes to the audio.

The old DVDs never had the mono mixes released, only the 5.1 tracks which added many new sound effects

There were 2 DVD releases. Which one? What sound FX were added?

The initial DVDs are where the 5.1 mixes originated despite having the OG visual effects, there were 2.0 tracks included but they were stereo downmixes of the 5.1 track

The BDs are the first home video release since VHS to have any mono mixes, and I heard from a few fans that they still had a few of the newer sound effects from the remixes

That is not quite accurate. I ripped the 2nd pilot from both DVD sources (already have the BD ripped). The original 1999 DVD release featured a 5.1 mix. Here is what it is. The original mono soundtrack as the center channel. Some sounds filtered to the left and right to create a stereo effect. Some sounds filtered to the surround and LFE channels. But the center channel is the original. The 2004 DVD clamshell set also has a stereo tack that has a stereo effect, likely just a mixdown of the surround as it has both 5.1 and 2.0. The remastered blu-ray set has a two channel mono soundtrack. There is a clear fidelity difference showing that the BR mono track came from a better source, using better equipment, or something else unique to get a crisper recorder. The video for the two DVD releases apppears to be identical there is a slight vertical adjustment, but the video and 5.1 tracks appear to be identical in every way.

Picture wise, the DVDs are an improvement over previous VHS and LD releases in the US. the Japanese LD set was a totaly different transfer using different techniques. Its quality compared to the US LD or DVD release would be comparably inferior to the BR image quality.

So to compare the sound for the original mono, you would need to extract the center channel out of the surround mix and the 2 channel mono from the BR. Also, BR discs have very high quality audio encoding and the audio track is sufficiently better quality that any possible loss is negligible.

so are the BD versions truly the original broadcast mono tracks or do they still have changes?

The remastered versions were made from a new transfer from the originals. The original version on the BR is the straight transfer after cleanup. All the changes are on the Remastered version.

The contents other channels in the surround mix is only music and sound FX. And they aren’t new, they are the originals. I can’t tell if they filtered them out of the original soundtrack or if they pulled out the tapes. My guess, from some of the volume changes is that it is filtered out of the original mono and then treated to a 4.1 channel mix to make the mono fill the space better. It isn’t actually stereo. you can tell it is just an effect to give the sound more body and presence. I’ve done that my self when including a mono track with stereo tracks to make it fit in better. I can’t hear any sound differences between the DVD surround center channel and the BR original mono.

As I look at the video, I have my doubts that they made a new transfer for the DVDs. It feels like it is the same master as the VHS/US LD. I don’t have either of those so I can’t compare them. But a lot of DVD’s that came out were from older masters. Video tape masters were high enough quality to make a good DVD release. A great many DVD releases in the 90’s were not new transfers. The DVD format alone makes older transfers look better. And coupled with some cleanup (which we know they did). But that is just supposition on my part. The colors in both DVD releases are more similar to the old VHS than to the BR. The DVD’s also match the source used for Trials and Tribbleations.

No there are definitely new sound effects in the 5.1/7.1 remixes

Please provide examples in the 2 non-Remastered DVD releases. Otherwise I will assume that the rest of the episodes are like WNMHGB and it is just enhancements to the mono track. And the DVD sets I’m referring to never had any 7.1 mixes, only 5.1. I think you are referring to the Remastered DVD set, which I had no use for so I never got. That only has the remastered episodes and those are indeed chock full of changes and additions where the partial 1999-2001 set I have and the complete 2004 clamshell set just have enhancements to the mono to make it feel stereo/surround (stereo was only on the 2004 set).

So 1999-2000 set the audio is 5.1 only
The 2004 set has 5.1 and 2.0 stereo (literally the same transfer as 1999-2001 with a stereo mixdown added)
The remastered DVD - I haven’t even checked
The Remastered BR - has the remastered versions and the original untouched episodes with original mono sound. It is a much higher quality transfer than the previous version. Crisper sound, full HD picture, improved colors more accurate to the original.

I would be interested to compare the LD video from US and Japan to these other transfers. I know the US LD and VHS used the same cover artwork so I would assume they have the same audio/video source (like so many releases at the time). The Japanese LD used to totally different source and would certainly be worth archiving.

Hi,
I find this topic very interesting in terms of preservation. I own pretty much any home video release of TOS (from 1999 US individual release, clamshell boxes PAL and NTSC, HDDVD, Blu Rays and also US and JAP LDs (only 1st season) as well TV recordings and French VHS). I made a backup of some episodes from the Laserdisc US release and will have a video coming comparing samples of the US and Jap releases.
I already noticed some changes like the sound of the phaser rifle in WNMHGB. The US LD release has this sound muted for some reason. Other releases starting from the DVD individual releases have put this sound back AND foreign language tracks also features this sound (and they’ve been untouched since their respective original broadcasts, at least for the french track).

The remix has an altered “whoosh” sound effect in the intro for the show compared to the original

Which intro? There were 4 (actually more, but most can’t hear the subtle difference in recordings). So WNMHGB, Season 1, Season 2, or Season 3?

I only got out Season 1 (because I only have the discs 1-8 and 40 of the 2 episode discs to compare the two DVD releases).

Post
#1513213
Topic
What other spinoffs should Disney make?
Time

The Knights of the Old Republic from the 90’s. Set 25,000 BBY (1000 generations). Ach-to could feature in it along with the ancient Jedi texts. More mystic. And married Jedi with children. Some great stories from that period. So many more that could be told. Do it like The Crown where you get a new cast every season or two (but totally new characters).

Post
#1513212
Topic
Is Bail Organa secretly an absolute idiot?
Time

Prior to the dissolution of the Senate, Senators were fairly well protected by their status. You can piece the chronology together that the destruction of Alderaan is a direct result of Bail Organa’s lack of appropriate subterfuge skills. They find his daughter on the ship with the stolen plans, Palpatine dissolves the Senate, and they destroy the planet with Bail on it (thought I don’t know if they could be sure he was there at the time). So Alderaan is destroyed due to Bail Organa’s cardlessness. That is my take anyway.

Post
#1513075
Topic
<em><strong>ANDOR</strong></em> - Disney+ Series - A General Discussion Thread
Time

Hal 9000 said:

I don’t ask a lot of TV Star Wars, and am typically just glad to have something to watch. And or has been a wonderful slow sizzle, and a welcome break from whiz-bang action and “I KNOW WHAT THAT IS.” It was refreshingly dull! It felt like proper television, and I embrace this about it.

I don’t expect all Star Wars TV to be the same. I just hope for something as interesting as the source material that sparked it. In this case, Rogue One. And something of above average quality. I felt there was a gem here hidden by too much excess. The last episode really showed this. The show shines when it is about Andor and sloggs when it becomes about others. Luthien is an interesting character who we don’t seen enough of. Too much Mon Mothma, too much time with Imperials, too much time on setup of the heist and too much time on the running of the prison before the breakout. The big payout on Ferrix languishes as we stray elsewhere.

Again, the one line from Rogue One that should inform a series named after Cassian Andor is “I’ve been in this fight since I was six years old”. Too much of this was him NOT in this fight.

Post
#1513059
Topic
<em><strong>ANDOR</strong></em> - Disney+ Series - A General Discussion Thread
Time

Mocata said:

This show was… good. It wasn’t an uneven mess and knew what it wanted to be. It had things like suspense and characterisation which have been missing from recent SW content, if it was ever present before in these terms. It also had some proper acting talent and proper dialogue instead of the nonsense in recent shows. The tone made sense and people behaved in ways that made sense. It didn’t feel cheap and wasn’t full of cringe references, despite a few name drops.

So it came as no surprise that people hated the pacing and the lack of action. Because for better or worse (it’s the former) this isn’t really SW at all in terms of things like escapism and adventure. SW as a continuation of THX or the crime dramas of the 1970s. After the awkward choppy flashbacks in the first 3 parts it all fell into place. So I fully expect season 2 to be tampered with to make it more appealing to a wider audience, i.e. things like Darth Vader and more deepfakes.

It’s these sort of things that mean I can’t yet accept this as enriching Rogue One after the fact. At least not fully. They could give three episode arcs to Saw and Jyn or to Maze and his pals, but it still leads to creepy CGI faces and Darth Vader’s ‘totally epic’ murder spree. Maybe LFL should avoid this and work towards common goals of quality output instead of just handing out jobs to everyone that is in vogue. It depends on if they recognise what they have here. Disney don’t because they buried it on the app front page.

I watch a lot of shows. The only Star Wars item I am looking for connection on with this is Rogue One. The title of this series is Andor so it should be mostly about him and what led him to the character we see in Rogue One. There is a lot of extra stuff in this series that isn’t related to those events. It is tying into the Rebellion in general and that ties into the Skywalker Saga. Mon Mothma is part of the Skywalker Saga. Luthien is not, but I don’t feel his character had much development and he should have been the focus. Instead we know way more about the culture of Mon Mothma’s family and world than is useful to a tighter story of Cassian Andor.

Post
#1513024
Topic
<em><strong>ANDOR</strong></em> - Disney+ Series - A General Discussion Thread
Time

NFBisms said:

“Faster More Intense” was always kind of patronizing, no? I think to go there for the audience they were obviously going for here, the creative team would have to be intentionally condescending.

You’re asking for this show’s strength as slower paced, broader scope work be stripped, in favor of offering something any other Star Wars thing already has. It’s the kind of cynical, bad faith storytelling I think many of us are burnt out on, as though a SW audience would only latch onto the familiar or the flash. Maybe that just means I don’t like Star Wars™. 🤷‍♂️. If it’s good, it’s good.

I get you might really admire the guy, but George Lucas The Businessman deserves some scrutiny too and maybe someone else’s creative vision can have merit outside the marketing identity

I think that this series is really slow. Too slow. There are a couple of flashy episodes, but other than that it plods. It is not just drawn out. It is actually boring at times. Yes, “faster and more intense” does not always work. There are plenty of scenes in the original movie that move slow, but with purpose. This just moves slow without purpose. I think this series could be improved by cutting out the excess and making it about 8 episodes long. It spends too many episodes setting things up and not enough on telling the story. It really can’t compare to The Mandalorian at all. Or even Kenobi. It does not have the inconsistencies of The Book of Boba Fett. It feels more like Resistance. That series also lacked the pacing. Clone Wars and Rebels had the occasional episode that wasn’t as well done, but overall they were very consistent as is The Mandalorian. They spent far too much time on the heist, Coruscant, and the prison than they needed to. It bogged the story down. So did too many character POVs. A good edit might fix it. Trim the fat. This is a basic story telling tool that has nothing to do with Lucas. His “faster and more intense” direction was just his way of executing this very basic and fundamental tool for engaging stories. Some other comments claimed Kenobi was too slow, but I found this to be glacial in comparison.

Post
#1513016
Topic
<em><strong>ANDOR</strong></em> - Disney+ Series - A General Discussion Thread
Time

Wexter said:

yotsuya said:

Wexter said:

yotsuya said:

Wexter said:

yotsuya said:

Nice background, but we can see why those scenes were cut from ROTS.

What the hell are you talking about?

The political stuff on Coruscant. None of it adds to Cassian’s journey.

None of it was cut from ROTS though.

You are absolutely entitled to your opinion, but this is baffling to me. Mon Mothma’s storyline intersected with several other characters, including Luthen, Vel and the ISB. It is clearly meant to collide with Andor’s journey in the second season.

You haven’t watched the ROTS deleted scenes recently, have you.

Of course I have. But if you mean to suggest those were cut because of Genevieve O’Reilly’s performance, then that’s both asinine and factually wrong. And apart from being set on Coruscant, those scenes have very little in common with what’s in Andor.

What makes you think I have a problem with her performance? No, it’s not her performance, it is the political intrigue of her role in founding the rebellion that lacks. It is the same slow pace as the cutscenes from ROTS. Most people agree that the political backstage that featured in the prequels is part of the problem with the prequels. They kept it to a minimum in The Clone Wars and is largely absent from Rogue One, and it doesn’t really work here. Not for what was advertised as an action packed series showing the rise of Cassian Andor.

It is a slow moving collection of character backstories for characters who later become important. Only the episodes on Farrix and the prison escape really pack any punch. This series really does not follow George Lucas’s “faster and more intense” editing style. Not even close.

Post
#1512998
Topic
<em><strong>ANDOR</strong></em> - Disney+ Series - A General Discussion Thread
Time

Wexter said:

yotsuya said:

Wexter said:

yotsuya said:

Nice background, but we can see why those scenes were cut from ROTS.

What the hell are you talking about?

The political stuff on Coruscant. None of it adds to Cassian’s journey.

None of it was cut from ROTS though.

You are absolutely entitled to your opinion, but this is baffling to me. Mon Mothma’s storyline intersected with several other characters, including Luthen, Vel and the ISB. It is clearly meant to collide with Andor’s journey in the second season.

You haven’t watched the ROTS deleted scenes recently, have you.

We know her story intersects. That’s not the point. It is relevance and interest. I think they could have trimmed out a lot and had fewer episodes and told a better story. Same mistakes as The Book of Boba Fett in many ways.

Post
#1512980
Topic
<em><strong>ANDOR</strong></em> - Disney+ Series - A General Discussion Thread
Time

timdiggerm said:

yotsuya said:

It largely circled back to where it started, at least for Cass.

Not at all! Cassian has undergone a tremendous conversion. Whereas he went with Luthen out of desperation and took part in the Aldahni mission for money, now he’s preparing for action by listening to Nevik’s manifesto and joining Luthen willingly, dissatisfied with any life but one of full commitment to the cause. He is a changed man.

He’s change by the events of the last episode more than all the rest of the season. That is my issue. Nevik’s manifesto is far too similar to his mother’s speech.

Post
#1512868
Topic
<em><strong>ANDOR</strong></em> - Disney+ Series - A General Discussion Thread
Time

Well, my previous post was premature, but mostly right on. I feel much of this season was wasted. It largely circled back to where it started, at least for Cass.

That said, this final episode was fantastic. I have loved the episodes on Ferrix. The rest has felt like interesting deleted scenes. Mon Mothma’s story has taken up a lot of the time. Nice background, but we can see why those scenes were cut from ROTS.

So the season ended on a high note. Love the hologram speech.