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yotsuya

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2-Dec-2008
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17-Jan-2019
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Post
#1264616
Topic
Best Explanation Of Mary Sue Issue
Time

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

yotsuya said:

DominicCobb said:

Shopping Maul said:

I love what you’re saying Rogue (not that I necessarily grasp all of it of course, but I like the vibe of it!) but I would add that attaining the ‘effortlessness’ implied in the Taoist way would (ironically) require effort. Think of it in terms of being a musician. It would take hours of blisters and finger-cramps and listening and learning for a guitarist to be in that zone. No-one’s going to pick up a guitar and nail it first time just because they had their baser thoughts in check. That’s the beautiful thing about the Karate Kid - he had to wash cars and stand like an Ostrich and go through all kinds of stuff to get to that place. Kershner famously said he wanted “something powerful going on in Luke’s soul” and within the (arguably) limited framework of a SW film he achieved that. The SE feels more like bullet points - ‘we need lightsaber fights, we need a Dark Lord, we need a cantina’ etc etc. Any depth to Rey’s experience seems (to me) to being created by the fans themselves rather than by anything JJ and/or Rian are doing.

Well, to use your Karate Kid example I think the idea in the ST is that Rey has essentially spent her whole life waxing cars (whereas Luke is mostly just any old kid, wasting time with his friends between chores at home).

I believe I have said much the same thing before.

As have I. We’re arguing in circles. The way the force works in the films is not narrowly defined so the interpretation that the ST takes is not a canon-betraying one, regardless of whatever Lucas may or may not have said outside of the movies (I was reading the Rinzler ESB book and at one point he suggested stating outright that Luke is a level 2 and he needs training to face the Emperor who’s a level 9 or something - that’s dumb as fuck and should be ignored as it’s not in the movie). The new films should be able to forge their own path.

Whether you like it or not is a different matter. But the approach is justified.

I disagree. I think Lucas’ words are clearly reflected in the six films he created both in the way he displayed the process of becoming a Jedi, and in the way things are shown to spin out of control once you stray from that path. So, in my view the ST is inconsistent, and offers only a flimsy explanation as to why that is.

Going back to the PT, the force is out of balance. The Jedi are diminished. Palpatine has started his plan. Anakin comes into the picture. Because they refuse to properly train him and because Palpatine becomes his non-Jedi mentor, Anakin’s fate is sealed. Yoda saw his future as clouded where Qui-gon was certain. Politics and tradition stopped them from training him properly. But I fear that the properly he needed did not exist due to how traditional the Jedi had become and how scared of the dark side they were. They weren’t seeking balance, only the light. So Palpatine spends years whispering in Anakin’s ear and when the time comes, Anakin follows Palpatine, not the Jedi. In the process, we get the twins - Luke and Leia. Luke grows up with his step-Uncle and Aunt and spends more time playing than working. Things catch up, he meets Obi-wan, Han, Leia, eventually Yoda. And again Luke is too old (older than Anakin), but Yoda breaks with tradition out of necessity and trains him. Luke goes on to face Vader twice and is not turned and passes the test. In the process he is the catalyst to get Anakin to turn back and destroy Palpatine at last. So the path of the PT was already broken by the path the OT took in the training of Luke vs. Anakin. Yoda broke with tradition, didn’t have much time, imparted the most important lessons, and it worked.

Coming back to Rey, if the old ways are broken (which is what I glean from the PT and OT), then it is time to find a new way. Luke uses that in how he teaches lessons to Rey (I think he was trying to discourage her but at the same time give her the tools to cope).

So I don’t see things spinning out of control if you stray off the path. I see that the old Jedi path was the issue (how many PT Jedi turned to the dark side?) and straying from the path and re-finding the pat they are supposed to be on is where this trilogy is headed.

Then why call Rey a Jedi, if Jedi-hood is the issue? TLJ works very hard to backtrack on any new direction it hinted at in its final act. This line of thought also ignores the fact that the Jedi guarded the peace for over a 1,000 generations. That’s just too good of a track record to ignore, or to state that their way is flawed. The PT era Jedi may have strayed too far from the right path, but that’s not what TLJ is saying through the words of cynical Luke, who then later reverses his position by saying he will not be the last Jedi.

I have seen you quite often focus on what Luke said when first meet him. The real message in TLJ is what Yoda says to Luke that leads Luke to project himself to Crait. But Luke is correct, the PT Jedi had it wrong. If the sacred texts are from the start of that 1000 generations, they they may have wisdom that cynical Luke missed that Rey can use (plus I am quite certain Luke will be finishing his training of Rey in IX). The goal from TPM seems to be a story of bringing balance to the force. The PT Jedi practice a flawed version of what the original Jedi practiced so the goal is to go back to the original - before the Sith - and restore the natural order to the Force.

You really need to ignore characters like cynical Luke and Kylo Ren when trying to pin a message on TLJ. Those characters are in dark places are do not reveal the message the move gets across which is that in the darkest hour you can find hope. At least Yoda finally knocked some sense into Luke… again.

Post
#1264613
Topic
Best Explanation Of Mary Sue Issue
Time

This idea of balance has eaten up a lot of time in Clone Wars and Rebels. Since Filoni was working closely with Lucas, I believe what we have been seeing represent development to the ST and a final balance to the force… back to where it all started.

So Rey is who she needs to be, has had plenty of setbacks and definitely not an easy time, regardless of how quick she has picked up the force skills, so she is not a Mary Sue. She is the main character of the ST. She drew a lightsaber from a box after helping Finn and BB-8 and her life has changed.

Post
#1264612
Topic
Best Explanation Of Mary Sue Issue
Time

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

yotsuya said:

DominicCobb said:

Shopping Maul said:

I love what you’re saying Rogue (not that I necessarily grasp all of it of course, but I like the vibe of it!) but I would add that attaining the ‘effortlessness’ implied in the Taoist way would (ironically) require effort. Think of it in terms of being a musician. It would take hours of blisters and finger-cramps and listening and learning for a guitarist to be in that zone. No-one’s going to pick up a guitar and nail it first time just because they had their baser thoughts in check. That’s the beautiful thing about the Karate Kid - he had to wash cars and stand like an Ostrich and go through all kinds of stuff to get to that place. Kershner famously said he wanted “something powerful going on in Luke’s soul” and within the (arguably) limited framework of a SW film he achieved that. The SE feels more like bullet points - ‘we need lightsaber fights, we need a Dark Lord, we need a cantina’ etc etc. Any depth to Rey’s experience seems (to me) to being created by the fans themselves rather than by anything JJ and/or Rian are doing.

Well, to use your Karate Kid example I think the idea in the ST is that Rey has essentially spent her whole life waxing cars (whereas Luke is mostly just any old kid, wasting time with his friends between chores at home).

I believe I have said much the same thing before.

As have I. We’re arguing in circles. The way the force works in the films is not narrowly defined so the interpretation that the ST takes is not a canon-betraying one, regardless of whatever Lucas may or may not have said outside of the movies (I was reading the Rinzler ESB book and at one point he suggested stating outright that Luke is a level 2 and he needs training to face the Emperor who’s a level 9 or something - that’s dumb as fuck and should be ignored as it’s not in the movie). The new films should be able to forge their own path.

Whether you like it or not is a different matter. But the approach is justified.

I disagree. I think Lucas’ words are clearly reflected in the six films he created both in the way he displayed the process of becoming a Jedi, and in the way things are shown to spin out of control once you stray from that path. So, in my view the ST is inconsistent, and offers only a flimsy explanation as to why that is.

Going back to the PT, the force is out of balance. The Jedi are diminished. Palpatine has started his plan. Anakin comes into the picture. Because they refuse to properly train him and because Palpatine becomes his non-Jedi mentor, Anakin’s fate is sealed. Yoda saw his future as clouded where Qui-gon was certain. Politics and tradition stopped them from training him properly. But I fear that the properly he needed did not exist due to how traditional the Jedi had become and how scared of the dark side they were. They weren’t seeking balance, only the light. So Palpatine spends years whispering in Anakin’s ear and when the time comes, Anakin follows Palpatine, not the Jedi. In the process, we get the twins - Luke and Leia. Luke grows up with his step-Uncle and Aunt and spends more time playing than working. Things catch up, he meets Obi-wan, Han, Leia, eventually Yoda. And again Luke is too old (older than Anakin), but Yoda breaks with tradition out of necessity and trains him. Luke goes on to face Vader twice and is not turned and passes the test. In the process he is the catalyst to get Anakin to turn back and destroy Palpatine at last. So the path of the PT was already broken by the path the OT took in the training of Luke vs. Anakin. Yoda broke with tradition, didn’t have much time, imparted the most important lessons, and it worked.

Coming back to Rey, if the old ways are broken (which is what I glean from the PT and OT), then it is time to find a new way. Luke uses that in how he teaches lessons to Rey (I think he was trying to discourage her but at the same time give her the tools to cope).

So I don’t see things spinning out of control if you stray off the path. I see that the old Jedi path was the issue (how many PT Jedi turned to the dark side?) and straying from the path and re-finding the pat they are supposed to be on is where this trilogy is headed.

Post
#1264608
Topic
Best Explanation Of Mary Sue Issue
Time

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

Why you are insisting that learning the force must be difficult is beyond me. That isn’t what we see with Luke. Why should we with Rey? For both characters, there are plenty of obstacles and successes and focusing on Luke’s obstacles while focusing on Rey’s successes is most definitely apples and oranges. Compare their successes (their goals and what they actually achieve) and their failures and both follow the same pattern - some wins, some losses, but generally more wins.

Because Lucas has made this very clear in his statements about how the Force works, which I’m not going to repeat. You have to study, to master it. It’s as simple as that. The entire premise of TESB is, that the Force doesn’t come easy for Luke, and he fails on numerous occasions, and where he succeeds, he rarely succeeds on a first try. Luke leaves Yoda with the clear message, that while he knows the Force, he cannot control it, and facing Vader in this condition is a danger to him physically, and spiritually. He subsequently gets his *** handed to him in his confrontation with Vader, and he ends up hanging on for his life battered hoping that his friends will save him. You don’t have to look hard to see, that Rey’s character gets a very different treatment in the ST. The OT and PT make it very clear, that learning the Force, and becoming a Jedi is very difficult, and just using it half cocked has terrible consequences.

I don’t think it is that different compared to the Force. Luke has always dreamed of the future. His mind was never on where he was or what he was doing. In Rey we have the opposite. Her mind was nearly always on where she was and what she was doing. She had to in order to survive. Everything about the two characters is opposite in terms of training for the Force. Rey has very much had the Miagi type training in life that prepared her to be a Jedi. She has the focus. She also heard the stories so when she sees Kylo do these things, she believes and knows they can be done. So Rey has none of Luke’s doubt - the thing that made him learning the force more difficult. Yet even so, he had no problem learning to deflect a blaster bolt (a full Jedi learns how to aim that as we saw in the PT), he is able to aim the proton torpedoes to destroy the Death Star. Out of desperation he picks up his lightsaber the first time he tries (it takes him a moment to focus and get it right). His training with Yoda was good enough that he can hold his own against Vader. Nothing about how he learned his force skills is hard except his belief and focus. What we do see is that practice, control, and great skill in using these powers takes practice. But learning them and using them comes easy.

What RogueLeader was talking about with being ‘in the zone’ takes years of practice, but once you learn how to do that with one thing you can apply it to something else. We do that with typing, driving, and a lot of things that we just don’t think about. It is learning to apply that to something new that is challenging and difficult. Lucas is right that becoming a Jedi takes a long time, but he has never said the skills needed are hard to learn. We see Rey pick them up from Kylo and then she seeks out Luke to help her channel these new powers. When that fails, she takes the books, hoping they have the answer. She knows she is not ready and needs training. We see her seek that out. The force awakened in her and she wants help understanding what happened and learning how to use it. There is a lot to being a Jedi besides just lifting rocks.

There’s a lot more to becoming a Jedi, and her development doesn’t reflect that either. Remember Obi-Wan’s line:

“This is a dangerous time for you, when you will be tempted by the Dark Side of the Force.”

This was after Luke recieved training. The entire saga up till the ST revolved around the idea of temptation, and control. Here again it comes easy for Rey, who is never tempted. So, as I stated, she gets her powers for free instantly without the temptation, that every Jedi had to face before her.

What is it that lead one to fall to the dark side? It is anger, selfishness, hatred. Rey has not been tempted by those yet. She has control and discipline. We see her old life is nothing but discipline. Watto gave Anakin pretty free rein. Luke was always goofing off and dreaming. If the goal of this trilogy is the restoration of the natural order to the force, then the story needs someone who is harder to tempt and who comes to the table with the skills needed to be a Jedi. If balance means accepting the light and dark side of the force, then we need someone not biased by the old Jedi ways. Someone who can bring the force into balance. How we are going to see that done in IX eludes me, but the hints have been laid out for the arc to this trilogy. The saga will take an imbalanced force, make it worse, then heal it back to the natural state. We are near that healing so Rey can’t be some of the things you think she needs to be if we are to get to that point. I see Rey being closer to some of the characters from thousands of years ago than to any in the PT or OT. It is time to start things over again and reset and Rey needs to be the vehicle to do that.

This image is key.

It seems to show a Jedi that is master of both the light and the dark. Rey is being set up to be just that. Where Kylo fits in I don’t know.

Post
#1264602
Topic
Best Explanation Of Mary Sue Issue
Time

One aspect of this ST that I think fits very well is that anyone can use the force. That is to say, few have the ability, but those few can come from anywhere. This returns us to the world we entered in TPM. The Jedi travel around the galaxy, keeping peace and justice and finding new talent. They take that talent to the Jedi Temple for training where, if the young person succeeds, they become basically a monk. The eschew attachment. The Jedi we met in the PT are really kind of twisted. The order is ancient and it seems that rather than deal with the dangers of the Dark Side, they just avoid anything that can lead to that danger. Sex leads to love which leads to jealousy etc. So these great and powerful Jedi have no line. No offspring. The potential dies. As we saw in the OT. The force can run strong in a family. But when there is no family there can be no line. This is where the ST gets the idea that anyone can use the force because this was the setup in TPM.

I see the PT Jedi as flawed (and Lucas seems to have as well with several references in the PT to issues and the total failure of the Jedi to detect Palatine or see that they were pushing Anakin down the dark path). The PT Jedi need to not return. The message of balance in the ST is important. The only hints at what the Jedi should look like lie in the old EU (the only place we see a different type of Jedi in the New Republic era and the Knights of the Old Republic era). Jedi can marry, have children, etc. The relationships are more organic and the Dark Side is less feared (just as dangerous, but with training avoidable). We are treated to a violation of Yoda’s teachings in ROTJ when Luke faces Vader. Vader makes Luke angry. Does it lead him to the Dark Side? Almost, but not quite. Luke rejects the dark side.

Rey comes from nobody just as all the PT Jedi did. There were no great lines of Jedi because the Jedi didn’t have children to make lines. The PT Jedi were all one off. So this idea that anyone can be a Jedi comes from Lucas. That is the setup for the Old Republic. This idea that Rey must belong to a family is in direct contradiction to the world as Lucas created it.

Post
#1264597
Topic
Best Explanation Of Mary Sue Issue
Time

DrDre said:

Why you are insisting that learning the force must be difficult is beyond me. That isn’t what we see with Luke. Why should we with Rey? For both characters, there are plenty of obstacles and successes and focusing on Luke’s obstacles while focusing on Rey’s successes is most definitely apples and oranges. Compare their successes (their goals and what they actually achieve) and their failures and both follow the same pattern - some wins, some losses, but generally more wins.

Because Lucas has made this very clear in his statements about how the Force works, which I’m not going to repeat. You have to study, to master it. It’s as simple as that. The entire premise of TESB is, that the Force doesn’t come easy for Luke, and he fails on numerous occasions, and where he succeeds, he rarely succeeds on a first try. Luke leaves Yoda with the clear message, that while he knows the Force, he cannot control it, and facing Vader in this condition is a danger to him physically, and spiritually. He subsequently gets his *** handed to him in his confrontation with Vader, and he ends up hanging on for his life battered hoping that his friends will save him. You don’t have to look hard to see, that Rey’s character gets a very different treatment in the ST. The OT and PT make it very clear, that learning the Force, and becoming a Jedi is very difficult, and just using it half cocked has terrible consequences.

I don’t think it is that different compared to the Force. Luke has always dreamed of the future. His mind was never on where he was or what he was doing. In Rey we have the opposite. Her mind was nearly always on where she was and what she was doing. She had to in order to survive. Everything about the two characters is opposite in terms of training for the Force. Rey has very much had the Miagi type training in life that prepared her to be a Jedi. She has the focus. She also heard the stories so when she sees Kylo do these things, she believes and knows they can be done. So Rey has none of Luke’s doubt - the thing that made him learning the force more difficult. Yet even so, he had no problem learning to deflect a blaster bolt (a full Jedi learns how to aim that as we saw in the PT), he is able to aim the proton torpedoes to destroy the Death Star. Out of desperation he picks up his lightsaber the first time he tries (it takes him a moment to focus and get it right). His training with Yoda was good enough that he can hold his own against Vader. Nothing about how he learned his force skills is hard except his belief and focus. What we do see is that practice, control, and great skill in using these powers takes practice. But learning them and using them comes easy.

What RogueLeader was talking about with being ‘in the zone’ takes years of practice, but once you learn how to do that with one thing you can apply it to something else. We do that with typing, driving, and a lot of things that we just don’t think about. It is learning to apply that to something new that is challenging and difficult. Lucas is right that becoming a Jedi takes a long time, but he has never said the skills needed are hard to learn. We see Rey pick them up from Kylo and then she seeks out Luke to help her channel these new powers. When that fails, she takes the books, hoping they have the answer. She knows she is not ready and needs training. We see her seek that out. The force awakened in her and she wants help understanding what happened and learning how to use it. There is a lot to being a Jedi besides just lifting rocks.

Post
#1264592
Topic
Best Explanation Of Mary Sue Issue
Time

DominicCobb said:

Shopping Maul said:

I love what you’re saying Rogue (not that I necessarily grasp all of it of course, but I like the vibe of it!) but I would add that attaining the ‘effortlessness’ implied in the Taoist way would (ironically) require effort. Think of it in terms of being a musician. It would take hours of blisters and finger-cramps and listening and learning for a guitarist to be in that zone. No-one’s going to pick up a guitar and nail it first time just because they had their baser thoughts in check. That’s the beautiful thing about the Karate Kid - he had to wash cars and stand like an Ostrich and go through all kinds of stuff to get to that place. Kershner famously said he wanted “something powerful going on in Luke’s soul” and within the (arguably) limited framework of a SW film he achieved that. The SE feels more like bullet points - ‘we need lightsaber fights, we need a Dark Lord, we need a cantina’ etc etc. Any depth to Rey’s experience seems (to me) to being created by the fans themselves rather than by anything JJ and/or Rian are doing.

Well, to use your Karate Kid example I think the idea in the ST is that Rey has essentially spent her whole life waxing cars (whereas Luke is mostly just any old kid, wasting time with his friends between chores at home).

I believe I have said much the same thing before.

Post
#1264588
Topic
Best Explanation Of Mary Sue Issue
Time

DominicCobb said:

One of the issues with the Mary Sue argument is that many who subscribe to it now look anywhere they can find and contort everything Rey does as evidence to back it up the theory. It hurts the argument to do such acrobatics (just as it hurts the argument to use the term in the first place, as that strikes up a whole different debate).

It’s one thing to say that Rey learns the force too quickly, respective of previous canon portrayals, or that the stakes for her emotional journey are too low going forward. But to nitpick and turn everything Rey does into proof that she is better than someone else is disregarding the actual filmmaking decisions and how things actually play out on screen (not to mention in some cases these arguments involve ignoring, forgetting, or fabricating things that happen in certain scenes).

My point being, I’m sorry I get flippant some times but it can be very frustrating when I want to have a discussion and it feels like when we can’t even agree on the reality of the film we’ve all seen (probably multiple times). It makes it very hard to debate!

I agree. I watch the film and read the script and what some people get out of it seems to not come from either of those sources.

Post
#1264584
Topic
Best Explanation Of Mary Sue Issue
Time

DrDre said:

Voss Caltrez said:

DrDre said:

So, there’s failure from a certain point of view, but from many others she is unrealistically successful (or lucky) given her lack of experience, and naive nature, and she achieves many of these successes with powers that she just almost instantly recieved from on high, and thus hasn’t really earned.

I agree with this.
But I don’t think it would play well if we saw Rey getting beat up like other action heroes tend to be.
Had Rey been rescued by Poe Dameron in a Hoth-like situation, people would accuse the filmmakers of resorting to the damsel-in-destress trope.
If Snoke had been hurling giant pieces of machinery at Rey’s back and head, she gets beaten and bruised with a black eye (ala Luke at the end of ESB) AND she loses the fight, it looks like a display of violence against women, and accusations of misogyny are made.

I don’t think she needed to be rescued, but I also think she might have a little bit more trouble escaping, maybe get a few scratches, and seem a little less jubilant in the battle of Crait. As it is the revelations and her failure don’t really seem to affect her much. Given what happened to her, and the Resistance you would expect a bit more somber and reflective tone, rather than smiles and congratulations.

And in A New Hope, Luke’s very old friend Biggs is blown up and other than a moment of sadness that he quickly shrugs off to get the job done, there is nothing. Of 30 ships only 3 came back and everyone is laughing and jubilant. Why? because even when there is a cause to be sad, we can be happy becomes something overrides the sadness. And in TLJ, after the survivor’s are rescued, Rey is somber when she talks to Leia.

Post
#1264582
Topic
Best Explanation Of Mary Sue Issue
Time

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

One of my issues is commenting that a strong female character must be strong physically. That has nothing to do with. Ripley in the Alien films is not a strong female character because she psychically beats the aliens, but because she does what has to be done to survive. Leia is similarly strong even though she is not tasked with the same level of physical demands as Ripley. She stands up to Vader and Tarkin. When Luke comes into her cell, she is not excited to see Luke, but excited to hear about Ben Kenobi. Then when Luke and Han don’t seem to have a plan, she makes one. She is passive during the Death Star battle because she is not a fighter pilot. But in the rest of the Trilogy, and the ST, she is obviously in charge and confident. She is not a damsel in distress even when she is a prisoner. Rey is the same way. After the force has awakened in her, she sees what Kylo does and while she can’t escape him she does escape a Stormtrooper (thanks Daniel Craig) which isn’t hard, but it takes her a couple of tries to get it. But Rey is not overly strong, she is competent and skilled and ready to be a Jedi. She does not outshine any of the other characters but comes to the story their equal. When you look at many of the male written strong female characters, they tend to be physically strong and more badass. That type of character gets old. How many people like that do you meet in real life? It is so easy to do wrong. Ripley is done right.

But to further compare Rey to other characters, let’s compare her to Wonder Woman. Rey obviously lack the extreme super powers, but has the force. Wonder Woman really has no physical adversaries in the 2017 film until she encounters Aries and she herself is the instrument of his death. She literally is outshines everyone and as the title character we expect that. Rey is the young Jedi of the ST. As such she can be expected to save the day in IX. She will initiate the solution the finalizes the Star Wars saga. So at her introduction is it any surprise that she is very powerful to start with and only grows more powerful, growing to the point where she is the equal of her adversary, Kylo. Rey actually has more setbacks than Wonder Woman and is far less powerful and less able to provide the solutions to all the problems. Plus she had the baggage of the abandonment and need for a parental figure.

I think one of the biggest mistakes is to not recognize that Rey, Finn, Poe, and Kylo are the main characters of the ST. Rey takes Luke’s role from the OT. Rey is supposed to grow into the Jedi Knight who wins the day. They are taking her through all the stages of the heroes’ journey over the 3 film trilogy rather than over a single film. Kylo is her unwitting teacher and Luke, the one she wants to teach her, refuses to do much beyond the basics and some politics.

So Rey is not an overly physical strong character but is capable and is the main character and therefor supposed to outshine the others. She has setback after setback in what she wants to do as the story (which you can read as the force) pushes her to her destiny. She is exactly the type of strong character we need and definitely not a Mary Sue.

The problem is, that her setbacks don’t really have any consequences for her. She fails to convert Kylo and beat Snoke in a direct confrontation, which might be considered a failure, if not for the fact that she only just learned about the Force a few days ago. Would you consider a novice who steps into the ring or the first time, facing a boxing champion, and gets out of the ring without a scratch a failure? The fact is, she does play an important part in getting Ben Solo to turn on his master, even if it doesn’t end up the way she expected, she easily resists Kylo’s temptation, she fights Kylo to a stand still for the lightsaber after beating Snoke’s elite guards in a team effort, she escapes from the lion’s den without a scratch, and ends up saving the remains of the Resistance from certain doom only to join them in a weird sort of celebration aboard the Millenium Falcon. So, there’s failure from a certain point of view, but from many others she is unrealistically successful (or lucky) given her lack of experience, and naive nature, and she achieves many of these successes with powers that she just almost instantly recieved from on high, and thus hasn’t really earned.

And in the first film, Luke gets in an X-wing and blows up the Death Star. Isn’t that unrealistically successful? He’d never sat in an X-wing before. Before that he used a hook to swing across a casm, stood shooting Stormtroopers and didn’t get hit by a single one while hitting several of them and the controls to close the door on Vader and reinforcing Stromtroopers. Let’s be fair. Star Wars is built with the main characters being exceptional heroes not novices in need of training. When we meet Rey in TFA, it is established that she can fight (with a staff and we don’t know what else). By way of example we have Finn use the lightsaber (The first non-jedi we have ever seen use one in combat) and while he does great against stormtroopers, he doesn’t fair as well against Kylo. Rey doesn’t either until she Kylo basically tells her she needs to use the force and she does and then her skills are a match for his in his weakened state. In TLJ we have a bunch of guards in red who look badass, who attack both Kylo and Ren after Snoke is killed. She fights them off (they are more skilled than the thugs on Jakku, but now so is she thanks to the Force). So this whole argument that Rey is treated different and is in some way an oddball in a Mary Sue way is nonsense. Other than she is lacking the doubt the plagued Luke in the first two OT film, they are cut from the same cloth and both far more successful than any non-hero has a right to be.

One big difference between the two of them can be found in comparing them to other types of heroes. Luke is more like Perseus. Great power but he doesn’t know it at first. Rey is more like Spiderman. Suddenly having the force awaken in her and have all these powers at hand and not knowing what to do with them. I can’t think of a Greek hero like that, but she is very similar to Arthur (pulls the sword from the stone and is suddenly king with all the powers that come with the title). Neither Luke nor Rey have any problem tapping into the force to do things. Luke blocks blaster bolts after a few minutes and is able to use the force to aim better than the targeting computer with no instruction other than “use the force”. He picks up his saber with no instruction and only fails with his X-wing because he perceives it is too big before Yoda shows him it isn’t. With Rey, Kylo does everything first and she picks it up from him. The scene of Rey with the Stromtrooper runs about the same length as Luke trying to pick up his saber in the Wampa cave. The difference is that Kylo tried to do that to Rey and Luke has never seen that before. Luke is not the hero of the ST, Rey is. So Rey following in the typical heroes’ journey of mythology is in keeping with what Lucas started. Correction, in keeping with what you find in myths.

Why you are insisting that learning the force must be difficult is beyond me. That isn’t what we see with Luke. Why should we with Rey? For both characters, there are plenty of obstacles and successes and focusing on Luke’s obstacles while focusing on Rey’s successes is most definitely apples and oranges. Compare their successes (their goals and what they actually achieve) and their failures and both follow the same pattern - some wins, some losses, but generally more wins.

Post
#1264399
Topic
Strong Female characters in the Star Wars universe
Time

I would say the universe is full of them. We really only get two in the OT, Leia and Mon Mothma, but both are obviously people to be reckoned with. But all the EU and comics I’ve read, from the Brian Daley books on are full of more. I can’t think of a single classic stereotype out there. Plus we end up with Mara Jade and Jaina Solo. While the ST has wiped all of them out, Qi’ra is awesome. Jynn is great but with flaws (she doesn’t shape the story until the mid-way point). Hera and Sabine are great and get some nice depth over the series. And I think everyone has been faithful to Carrie’s portrayal of Leia.

Post
#1264396
Topic
Best Explanation Of Mary Sue Issue
Time

One of my issues is commenting that a strong female character must be strong physically. That has nothing to do with. Ripley in the Alien films is not a strong female character because she psychically beats the aliens, but because she does what has to be done to survive. Leia is similarly strong even though she is not tasked with the same level of physical demands as Ripley. She stands up to Vader and Tarkin. When Luke comes into her cell, she is not excited to see Luke, but excited to hear about Ben Kenobi. Then when Luke and Han don’t seem to have a plan, she makes one. She is passive during the Death Star battle because she is not a fighter pilot. But in the rest of the Trilogy, and the ST, she is obviously in charge and confident. She is not a damsel in distress even when she is a prisoner. Rey is the same way. After the force has awakened in her, she sees what Kylo does and while she can’t escape him she does escape a Stormtrooper (thanks Daniel Craig) which isn’t hard, but it takes her a couple of tries to get it. But Rey is not overly strong, she is competent and skilled and ready to be a Jedi. She does not outshine any of the other characters but comes to the story their equal. When you look at many of the male written strong female characters, they tend to be physically strong and more badass. That type of character gets old. How many people like that do you meet in real life? It is so easy to do wrong. Ripley is done right.

But to further compare Rey to other characters, let’s compare her to Wonder Woman. Rey obviously lack the extreme super powers, but has the force. Wonder Woman really has no physical adversaries in the 2017 film until she encounters Aries and she herself is the instrument of his death. She literally is outshines everyone and as the title character we expect that. Rey is the young Jedi of the ST. As such she can be expected to save the day in IX. She will initiate the solution the finalizes the Star Wars saga. So at her introduction is it any surprise that she is very powerful to start with and only grows more powerful, growing to the point where she is the equal of her adversary, Kylo. Rey actually has more setbacks than Wonder Woman and is far less powerful and less able to provide the solutions to all the problems. Plus she had the baggage of the abandonment and need for a parental figure.

I think one of the biggest mistakes is to not recognize that Rey, Finn, Poe, and Kylo are the main characters of the ST. Rey takes Luke’s role from the OT. Rey is supposed to grow into the Jedi Knight who wins the day. They are taking her through all the stages of the heroes’ journey over the 3 film trilogy rather than over a single film. Kylo is her unwitting teacher and Luke, the one she wants to teach her, refuses to do much beyond the basics and some politics.

So Rey is not an overly physical strong character but is capable and is the main character and therefor supposed to outshine the others. She has setback after setback in what she wants to do as the story (which you can read as the force) pushes her to her destiny. She is exactly the type of strong character we need and definitely not a Mary Sue.

Post
#1264387
Topic
Best Explanation Of Mary Sue Issue
Time

First, a Mary Sue character is a wish fulfillment character. The idea was born from fanfiction and came into the main when this type was noticed in mainstream media. A Mary Sue cannot be a main character because part of the definition is that they upstage the main character. Wesley Crusher was almost a Mary Sue with how often he saved the day. Rey is the main character of the ST. She can’t upstage herself. When we meet her we are shown that she is a skilled fighter. She had abandonment issues. Throughout TFA she just wants to go home and wait for her parents until she finally accepts that her life is taking a new direction. She doesn’t just randomly pick up any force skills (which we are never shown are that hard to learn if you believe you can do it, which was Luke’s problem). She does not pick them up perfectly on the first try any more than Luke picked up blocking blaster bolts the first try. In the OT we went through the heroes journey in the first film before resuming it in the second. Here we are following Rey on that journey and she isn’t zooming through it in one film.

In TLJ she enters the training part of her journey but ends up with Luke not wanting to really teacher, instead he is trying to scare her off. It doesn’t work. Rey steals the sacred texts and leaves having picked up enough to work with. She knows she is powerful and needs training. What she lacks is not ability, but focus and purpose and she gets that in TLJ. By the time she gets in front of Snoke, she has some false confidence and would have been killed if Kylo wanted her dead, but instead he kills Snoke and Snoke’s guards attack. If you watch the scene, Kylo is the better fighter. He fights more of them and against tougher odds. When it comes to the raw power of trying to grab the saber with the force, they are equal. Saying she won when she did not accomplish her goals for going there is ridiculous. She basically failed in all her goals for TLJ. She did not get Luke to come back (Yoda did). She did not get Luke to teacher (he gave her some minor lesson and she stole some books hoping she might learn more from them). She did not turn Kylo. And her saber is broken. So for Rey, TLJ is a list of failures an if she was a Mary Sue, she would have had some big successes other than lifting a bunch of rocks (something that could have been done manually by Chewbacca).

Rey comes closer in TFA, but when you compare where she is at in her heroes’ journey compared to Luke, she has only reach Mos Eisley by the end of TFA and just escaped the Death Star by the end of TLJ. We knew Luke was a great pilot and he picked up the force power that Obi-wan taught him in just a few minutes so Rey being a great fighter, mechanic, and pilot (Luke had all those same qualities) isn’t so different from Luke. But Luke had a much longer and more convoluted journey because when Star Wars came out in 1977, it could have been the only film that ever got made so Lucas gave Luke a complete journey in one film and then reset and resumed his journey in TESB. Rey is missing that journey are reset and is just on the heroes’ journey (it starts with the call and the rejection and the eventual acceptance (TFA) followed by her training and some trials (TLJ) before her chance to save the day arrives.

If Rey is really a Mary Sue, the success of her side in both films would rest with her and I don’t see her provide that success. For Rey to face Kylo in IX, she has to be as good as he is. So she is a protagonist to match him as antagonist. Her story is not one of constant successes. She has failures. She learns the force fast, but as far as we have seen that is normal, as long as you believe you can. So the force doesn’t come easier to her than it did to Luke or Anakin. That is an assumption that is not based on events in the previous films. Luke had problems believing, never a problem with actually doing once he believed he could. And Rey sees Kylo do these things before she does them. She doesn’t have to take it on faith like Yoda made Luke do with the X-wing. And when she attacks both Kylo in TFA and Luke in TLJ, she has surprise on her side (not to mention Kylo being wounded). She never bests either of them in a fair fight.

A Mary Sue would be the best and would always win. Things would always go her way. Instead she spends all of TFA wanting to go back to Jakku and being prevented and spends all her time in TLJ with goals that don’t pan out. So far the only thing she has done successfully is locate Luke. Equating her fast learning of the force with being a Mary Sue ignores all the plot that matters. She spends most of both movies looking for a mentor only to come to the conclusion that she will have to teach herself, there by growing past her need for a parent/mentor. Rey is beset by issues that keep her from being the answer to all the problems.

Post
#1264007
Topic
Best Explanation Of Mary Sue Issue
Time

The entire idea of what Poe did being mansplaining is nonsense and idiotic. It really shows a lack of depth to a person’s education in film and fiction. What he did was question authority. I can’t even count the number of times that has appeared in movies, books, TV shows, etc. where both parties are men. It shows a lack of understanding of what mansplaining is. Because that ain’t it.

I think that pretty much all of the complaints about these new movies that seek to apply a political or social motive to one element or another are off the mark. Who cares what gender any character is or what race. We need to look at them objectively as a genderless and raceless character and when you do that there is nothing but good fiction in the ST. The other motives are just imagination.

And quit blaming Disney. In modern movies the Director and the writer (sometimes the same person as in TLJ) controls the film. Lucasfilm is a wholly owned subsidiary of Disney, but Kathleen Kennedy is running it the way Lucas wanted (and if you look at her resume she has some pretty awesome films to her credit). Blame the director because that is where the success or failure of a film (in terms of quality) lies.

Post
#1263813
Topic
Best Explanation Of Mary Sue Issue
Time

The mistake some people make is assuming a strong female character is physically strong. That is not what strong means. Leia has always been a strong female character. She was the classic princess in prison, but she grabbed the blaster and found her own way out. Strong means a character that is independent and realistic without being a stereotype. I think that fits Rey very well.

As to what her trials are, well, they are very internal. Yes, Star Wars has always been part action, but let’s remember that a lot of what Luke went through was also very internal. He had to overcome his disbelief in the force. Rey has to overcome her need for her parents or replacements. Luke was never weak. He was quite willing to pull out a blaster before he learned how to use his lightsaber. He learned the lesson of deflecting blaster bolts in just a short time on the Falcon. Learning force powers was so unimportant to his journey, we never even see Anakin train. Qui-gon gives him a tiny lesson and Anakin flys a Starship (after winning the pod race and we know he raced in at least one before that). So he could fly and he took out the droid ship by accident, not skill. Rey is more powerful in the force and she picks up everything she learns after seeing someone else do it. Her skills don’t come out of thin air, but from Kylo mostly. But the struggle of learning the skills has never been part of Star Wars. Luke had no trouble learning the skills, only in believing he could do them. Anakin’s struggle was in letting go of his mother. We never see anyone struggle to learn the force. Never. Their struggles are within themselves. Luke won, Anakin lost, and we have yet to see what will happen with Rey (though we can be sure she will win hers in the end). So while Star Wars in on the surface an action movie, it is much more and always has been. It is a legend/myth for the modern age and when we see how Rey’s journey ends, we will see again a very internal struggle that ends up saving the galaxy while at the same time a larger battle takes place the reinforced her victory.

Post
#1263401
Topic
4K restoration on Star Wars
Time

There is a lot to be said for and against both 3D and 4k. I don’t think most viewers will actually get much out of 4k in films. Especially older films. However, one thing to consider is that the compression used to put them on disk is less obvious at higher resolutions. So even a 2k film upscaled to 4k is going to look better on home video than it will in 2k. I’m just disappointed that the 4k TV’s seem to be exclusivly geared to 4k content instead of tuning them to display the best 480p, 720p, 1080p, and 4k possible.

I think 3D is a novelty. It doesn’t help the story telling or the immersion. I find it annoying because the filmmaker has to direct your focus and when you watch the film you can’t refocus on other things. So it isn’t very realistic. I saw TFA in 3D and I regret that. It was a horrible experience. I prefer to stick with 2D at 2k for the time being.

Post
#1263288
Topic
4k77 released
Time

Williarob said:

JonathanArthur19 said:

What shots from the Blu-Ray we’re used for 4K77, it says on the 4K77 page and I quote " Finally, about 400 frames that couldn’t be sourced from anywhere else at the time they were needed, were upscaled from the official Blu-Ray." I was wondering what scene interpreted these frames

Last shot of reel 3, first and last shots of reel 4, first and last shots of reel 5, first shot of reel 6.

Williarob - any chance of you posting the missing frame from the end of reel 5 color corrected to match the DNR version? It really bugs me that the US GOUT is missing this frame (and has become the site standard) and I’d like to be able to add it in to match.

Post
#1263269
Topic
Obi_Wan's Reaction in Star Wars IV
Time

It might not have been luck. Alec may have sensed that the lines didn’t ring true. Lucas may have shared his desire to film more with him. There is a lot we don’t know and we unfortunately can’t ask Alec. But I would say that whatever he did there was likely his own take on it. As a stand alone film you can either take it as hesitation from apprehension in telling Luke about it or hesitation from coming close to the truth but not exactly. Not matter how it happened, it really makes the scene resonate with the “certain point of view” we later find out it is.

Post
#1263267
Topic
Pre-Star Wars, Post-Star Wars
Time

I don’t have many favorites in the decade prior to Star Wars. I prefer older or newer movies. That time was kind of a dry spell for really good film. At least for me. I have done some marathons of all the SF films that appeared right after. Some really good one. Even the cheesy Battle Beyond the Stars is pretty good (a Seven Samurai remake). Outside the Star Wars films and the SF offshoots, I like Popeye, Grease, Chariots of Fire, Blade Runner.

Post
#1263265
Topic
Pre-Star Wars, Post-Star Wars
Time

LexX said:

I just saw The Hidden Fortress for the first time last week. And I have to say, it had almost nothing to with SW. If people hadn’t been saying it from the beginning, I wouldn’t even have made the connection myself. Pretty much the only thing is bickering soldiers that resemble R2 and 3PO (which is an insult to the droids as these people are just immoral scum to the very end), and there is one scene that is almost exactly the same in SW than in THF. Other than that, I don’t see any other similarities other than some ideas like there being a general and a princess, but you can find similar architypes from many movies. The plot is completely different and so are the characters. Comparing it to SW took me out of the movie a bit since I kept waiting “is there going to be this and this scene next” and there never was.

One of the early drafts of the script was pretty much a rewrite of Hidden Fortress. It changed considerably before reaching the final shooting script.

Post
#1263099
Topic
Science Fiction or Space Fantasy - what is Star Wars
Time

OutboundFlight said:

By that logic, is Lord of the Rings pseudo-Science Fiction? Isengard is shown to master genetic manipulation while the wizards seems to use some sort of energy manipulation.

No, because the genetic manipulation is done by magic, not science. The tech at Isengard is not high tech, but appropriate for the setting of the story. There is no science to the tale, only magic.

Post
#1262624
Topic
Science Fiction or Space Fantasy - what is Star Wars
Time

There are three levels to science fiction. Possible science, plausible science, and pseudo science. After that there is the rest of the speculative fiction overarching genre and you get into magic and it becomes either something in the tiny cross over area or fantasy. If you get too far over you get into horror. Star War is a mix of plausible science (hyperdrives, blasters, bacta tanks, droids, etc) and pseudo science (where the Force is an extension of nature much as the mental abilities of the Robots and citizens of Gaia were in Asimov’s Robot/Empire/Foundation universe). ESP has long been a staple of science fiction even though it is pseudo science. Some believe it really exists while other think it is illusion. I don’t know anyone who thinks magic is real. That possibility that such things are real is why the Force is firmly on the sf side of the divide between sf and fantasy. That is why Star Trek is hailed as great science fiction even though it is full of the same pseudo science mental abilities and energy being as Star Wars. If you stick to Clarke’s definition, only hard science fiction can be called science fiction and that is not what the readers, writers, agents or publisher limit it too. You have to stretch science fiction to the plausible and near impossible to accurately describe what science fiction is. The entire science fiction genre is based on what science can predict or imagine being real, not just on what is possible now. That’s how writers before space flight had ever happened were able to predict what micro-gravity is like. Just because modern science poops on the ideas of telepathy, telekinesis, and teleportation does not mean that we can’t imagine that at some point we unlock a new door in science that makes it possible.