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xhonzi

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30-Oct-2005
Last activity
13-Oct-2020
Posts
6,428

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Post
#158467
Topic
Yoda & Emperor PT vs OT
Time
All I really have to say regarding Yoda and the Emperor fighting with lightsabres is: Ditto. Should have never happened. Cheapens the characters and the trilogy as a whole.

When Yoda walks in on Dooku trashing Obiwan and Anakin, he should have just held him a few feet off the floor with the Force. He could have swung his lightsabre to his dark side heart's content. Kind of like how Lone Starr defeated Dark Helmet.

Xhonzi
Post
#155423
Topic
Prequel total rewrites...?
Time
One little thing I just thought of...

In L'sPT, we're supposed to believe that Jedi don't get married or have kids. I never really cared for this, and my concept of the prequels doesn't include this... (I'm sure that a lot of Jedi would refrain from having family because of the nature of their work (like some members of the military)) Anyways, we're also supposed to understand that ability to use the force is genetic (at least to some degree). The talk of the midiclorians seems to strengthen that argument.

But then, the Jedi don't have kids.

Is anyone else seeing a problem with this? It's like they're purposefully trying to limit their numbers....

Xhonzi
Post
#153808
Topic
Prequel total rewrites...?
Time
Originally posted by: Number20
Originally posted by: xhonzi

The ending of RotS, even without thinking that Vader is a Force Wuss as a cyborg, still leaves the question in my mind: What does Palpy need Vader for at this point? It seems that the Sith use a "love 'em and leave 'em" tactic against each other and that as soon as they can't use you anymore, they kill you or let you be killed. You bring up a good example of Dooku. Anyways, Palpy has control of the entire galaxy at this point and leaving Vader around only seems to be asking for a betrayal. Especially since he failed to deliver on the one promise that brought Anakin over to the dark side...

But I've already said that I don't think Vader has any reason to a) not kill Palpatine at that point or b) stay on the dark side at all as it's portrayed in L'sPT.

Xhonzi


Palpatine has to keep Vader around. He still needs someone to carry on the Sith after he is gone. In ROTS, he brags to Yoda how his apprentice will be more powerful than either of them. If he was purely motivated by keeping himself alive, he could of just found some random weaking jedi to turn sith or leave Anakin to die after the Obi-Wan duel. But he wanted someone who he knew he couldn't beat, because he was the most powerful available. Sure, he wants to maintain power, but he is also loyal to the Sith way and knows that he must have someone to carry on the Sith legacy, even though that meant he would eventually be killed. Maybe he thought he wouldn't be killed by his apprentice like the rest.
I don't buy into the whole "suited Vader is a weakling" argument, though. The way I see it, Vader is still very deadly, but more vunerable because he is dependent on a life-support suit, and one that proves can be shorted out by sith lightning.


I think this argument is weakened when the ending of RotJ is taken into account. (When Palpy tries to trade Vader in for the newer model Skywalker). If he was so attatched to Vader, he wouldn't try to pull that one on him.

Based on the OT, I never saw Palpy as an ex-Jedi/Sith loyalist. He seemed to be too self-centered for any of that. Certainly he was someone that was abusing the Dark Side of the Force... but I didn't see him have the "religious" devotion that Vader seemed to have.

Xhonzi



Post
#153805
Topic
Watching in order 1-6 is screwing up the original SW for newcomers!
Time
Originally posted by: battlewars
i think it would be neat for someone to see the movies 1-6 if only to see if they were shocked by palpatine being sidious and the good guy(anakin) ending up evil


Was Palpy=Sideous supposed to be some sort of surprise? I overheard a lady a couple months back in the toy isle at Target saying to a friend while looking at the Palpy=Sideous figure, "I knew that he was Darth Sideous! I was telling everyone at work and no one believed me!" I thought this was absurd. If the movies proper didn't make it obvious, the fact that Ian was credited as Senator Palpatine/Darth Sideous in every movie should have been a clue.

Anyways, I thought there might be an explanation about how Palpatine had split personalities or maybe was possessed or something... but RotS put that to rest.

Xhonzi
Post
#153511
Topic
Prequel total rewrites...?
Time
Gaffer,
I couldn't agree more with you're last post! Especially since, after re-watching RotS, Vader crushes the living snot out of everything in the room except Palpatine when he learns of Padme's death.

The ending of RotS, even without thinking that Vader is a Force Wuss as a cyborg, still leaves the question in my mind: What does Palpy need Vader for at this point? It seems that the Sith use a "love 'em and leave 'em" tactic against each other and that as soon as they can't use you anymore, they kill you or let you be killed. You bring up a good example of Dooku. Anyways, Palpy has control of the entire galaxy at this point and leaving Vader around only seems to be asking for a betrayal. Especially since he failed to deliver on the one promise that brought Anakin over to the dark side...

But I've already said that I don't think Vader has any reason to a) not kill Palpatine at that point or b) stay on the dark side at all as it's portrayed in L'sPT.

Xhonzi
Post
#153505
Topic
ROTS Extras: CGI TPM Yoda
Time
Originally posted by: Adamwankenobi
I say it becuase it REALLY bugs me that he doesn't want to do CG Yoda in the OT. I suppose I should call you a troll for the many, many times I'm sure you've said something along the lines of: "I want the OT on DVD!" or "The prequels suck," or "Lucas can't write scripts," or "I can't stand the special editions/2004 versions."

There, that might leave you with something to think about.

Actually, since this is a sight called OriginalTrilogy.com (why do we need to keep reminding you of this???) those sort of comments are what people come here to share. Comments along the lines of, "I don't like the original trilogy." or "I think Lucas should just keep changing them." are just baiting people to reply in all sorts of nasty ways.

Let's look at the Free On-line Dictionary of Computing, shall we?

troll

An electronic mail message, Usenet posting or other
(electronic) communication which is intentionally incorrect,
but not overtly controversial (compare flame bait), or the
act of sending such a message. Trolling aims to elicit an
emotional reaction from those with a hair-trigger on the reply
key. A really subtle troll makes some people lose their
minds


What do you think?

Xhonzi
Post
#153355
Topic
ROTS Extras: CGI TPM Yoda
Time
Originally posted by: Adamwankenobi
And, as I've said here many times... it's an even bigger shame that they are not replacing Yoda in the OT as well.


This is why you're a troll.


Not for saying it once. Not for saying it twice. Not for saying it ten times. But somewhere around the 100th time... *POOF* you became a troll.

Congratulations.

Everyone now knows your opinion. Would you be so kind as to not bring it up again?

Besides, I thought you were banned?

Xhonzi
Sorry, folks. Feeding time is over. I have made my peace. I will keep it to myself.
Post
#153354
Topic
Prequel total rewrites...?
Time
Quick thought, it seems to me that it makes a little more sense for Anakin/Vader to feel betrayed by the Jedi if they threw him out or something. Not being made a master doesn't quite seem like betrayal to me.

If Anakin started to mess with Dark Side things and they told him he had to stop, he says that it is not that bad and he thinks everyone should try it and so they kick him out and ruin his life. And throw a suspicious husband aspect on top of that (Obi-wan and Anakin's yet to be named Wife?) and maybe we now have a candidate for "feeling betrayed by the Jedi."

I don't know, what do you think?

Xhonzi
Related: I thought Vader would personally go around and kill all the Jedi personally. Not some order 66 (anyone read that Twisted Toyfare Theater? It had me rolling!). As I was thinking about this, I thought it might make sense if Vader thinks some of the Jedi really would like to build this Sith Kingdom on Earth (so to speak) and so he went around to all the Jedi inviting them to join.. and they try to kill him Sith Lord that he is, so he kills them right back! And then pretty soon, he stops asking them to join, he just jumps to the end where he kills them. This, of course, would take place between 3-4 since we never see Vader in 3. Maybe some comics or something.
Post
#153352
Topic
Watching in order 1-6 is screwing up the original SW for newcomers!
Time
I have to say that I love the OT, hate the PT, and enjoy some of the EU, accepting some of it into my personal canon.

I saw a survey one time that asked which was the official version of a movie:
A) The Theatrical Cut
B) The Director's Cut
C) The Longest Version
D) Version I like the most

The result was an honest D. EU to me is like a buffet. I take what I like and leave the rest and I'm okay with that.

However, the PT has really ruined SW for me in a big way. It's like dating a really cool girl for a while and setting up a good history only to find out that she is a he. A little hard to go back and forget the new information, you know?

Darn you George Lucas, why did you have to be a woman!!!

Xhonzi
Post
#153349
Topic
Watching in order 1-6 is screwing up the original SW for newcomers!
Time
Generally replying to some comments in here:
RotS, which I didn't like as many of the other EpI-II haters did, helped me come to one realization:
Return of the Jedi is really cool! Lukes's (albeit breif) turn to the Dark Side at the end is SO much more convincing than anything in the PT. Luke's character arc was character driven. He became what his character had to become (which is really true of all the OT characters, like it or not, I think). Anakin is plot driven. He must turn to the Dark Side to become Vader so he does. Anyways, it's short, but I came away from RotS with a new appreciation for RotJ.


Xhonzi
Post
#153341
Topic
ROTS Extras: CGI TPM Yoda
Time
Originally posted by: Number20
...but I think another aspect of it is that he has basically bought into his own "greatness" hype. He seems to feel he needs to listen to the actors/directors/other production people less, because if he came up with it, it has to be good. Combine this with a surrounding of the same "yes" people, and you have a show driven by only one person.


Could this perhaps had lead to the three stooges style droids in Sith? Where did that come from? Did the Super Battle Droids act like that in AotC? I just can't believe enough people thought that was a good idea that it ended up in the final cut! I just saw Sith for the first time since the theatre, when I was trying really hard to like it... Watching it at home, not trying so hard to like it, those droids annoyed me even more. I couldn't believe how stupid that was...

Anyways, too many yes men.

Xhonzi

Post
#152624
Topic
Prequel total rewrites...?
Time
Originally posted by: Switch Radic
I agree with not showing anakin becoming vader. that would preserve the surprise in empire. it would also mean that alot of long hours need to go into thinking things through about how to do the secondary apprentice, maybe one given to ben for training during the clone wars.

On a side note, i did suggest in a topic a while back that palpy cloned anakin and that the clone was the dark side user until anakin duels him. Ben would catch the tail end of the duel and think that anakin was killed by his clone, thus preserving the idea of what ben says in ANH. but that was too much of a cop out and un-original. I also believe that anakin's turning needs to happen earlier than episode 3. He should turn at the end of episode 2 by being forced to defend palpy from mace windu. there's more to that statement that I have to work out but take it as you will for now.


"... a pupil of mine. 'Til he turned to evil."

I was trying to figure out where the idea of this "secondary apprentice" came from; I saw a couple people talking about it. Personally, I thought it was kind of stupid. But then I remembered that classic Obi-wan line and I see the need for it now.

"...a pupil of mine..."

This makes it sound a lot less "personal" than "apprentice." I think Ben might have had several Jedi pupils. But I guess I've always imagined Ben/Anakin's relationship to be a lot different than it was showed in L'sPT. The lines about fighting along side him in the clone wars, a great friend, and the greatest pilot in the galaxy, along with his being a general in the CW's made me think that (as Swithc Radic more or less was talking about earlier) Ben was in the Galactic Army fighting the clone wars (as a captain, or whathaveyou) when he met Anakin, a pilot in the Galactic Army. I don't see Ben dressed as he is in IV, but more like you'd expect an officer in the GA to be dressed. He'd just happen to have a lightsabre. Anyways, he would meet Anakin and decide that he was such a great pilot because he was using the force and Ben would decide to help him fine tune it a little bit. And, oh, wouldn't it be nice if the war wasn't going on and Anakin could go train properly with Yoda or someone. There are some other Jedi under Kenobi's command, but its more their religion than their job. They're just soldiers in the army. With a little extra oopmh, maybe. Since Dark Jedi (in spades, not just 2-3-4. This gives us the "Braveheart" lightsabre battles) and more specifically the Dark Side is the enemy of the story, maybe we see a few of these guys turn to the dark side. Or not, but we do have to pave the path so that the audience doesn't only assume Anakin when he says that a pupil of his turned to the dark side.

RE: Someone other than Ben killing Anakin: I think it would be a mistake to suggest that Ben still doesn't know at the beggining of ANH that Anakin=Vader. I agree with what has been said: that you can mostly discount what Ben says as things that he thinks Luke needs to hear more than the truth. But anyways, if you end III with the classic Ben VS Anakin, and you think that Ben kills Anakin and that's how you come out of the PT... then when you hear Ben telling Luke about how some other guy (the recently introduced Darth Vader) killed his pops, you think: Now wait a minute, Ben... You're going to have to tell him some time that YOU killed his dad. So when ESB comes around and Vader drops the whole "Obi-wan never told you what happened to your father." It's even more of a shocker than ever.

Xhonzi


Anyways
Post
#152398
Topic
Prequel total rewrites...?
Time
Originally posted by: Number20
I thought the prequels did a fair job of explaining why Vader served Palpatine for 20+ years. Palpatine was a sort of father-figure to Anakin.


I think, that after Anakin found that Palpatine couldn't help him save Padme (since she was dead) that he would have lost his alliegance to the man. She's the whole argument that the PT gives us for Anakin's change. Once that reason had gone (and so quickly), what's left to hold him to Palpatine? I just don't buy it. There needs to be something more.

"Seduced" by the dark side. It seems in RotS that he weighs his options, looks at the pros and cons, and then takes the Dark Side despite the cons. But then, once he wakes up as Vader... it doesn't make sense why he would subject himself to Palpatine. Kill him and take over, maybe. The novel suggests that Anakin was a very poor force user after the operation since he was missing so much of his body, that's why he didn't take out Palpatine. Don't know if I buy that either.

Xhonzi



Post
#152367
Topic
Prequel total rewrites...?
Time
Thanks to everyone who posted. I'm sorry if this is a total repeat of conversations that have gone on before, but I for one have enjoyed the discussion.

Switch Radic:
I really enjoyed your alternate synopsis, it seems you get the idea of totally forgetting the Lucas prequels and doing what you can to make something that fits with the original trilogy. That was the idea I was trying to get across, anyways. But I don't think you need to redo RotJ, because it doesn't contradict itself or any of the other OT. Contradict either in a continuity/story way, or a storytelling way. (i.e.: ruining surprises). I agree that Jedi wasn't Lucas's original intention for Episode VI... but then again, neither was ANH for Episode IV.

theredbaron:
Thanks for your script. I'll look at it when I can.

TheCassidy:
I agree. Pretty much everything Obi-Wan said in ANH can be dismissed as egging Luke into action. Heck, he might have even sent the Stormtroopers to kill his Aunt and Uncle... Oh wait, I guess we know that Beru was the actual responsible one due to those scenes that were cut...

Everyone else:
I think the other surprise from Empire that I would like to see preserved is the Yoda reveal. When all we knew of the Jedi were old men with grey beards, no one suspected that that funny little green creature was the great Jedi master that Obi-wan thought was so great. To have him all over the prequels will make new generations have contempt for Luke when they see that he can't recognize the very famous Yoda. I think it can only help to have his name mentioned all the time, perhaps Obi-wan constantly telling Anakin that he should really go train with a real Jedi Master like Yoda, unlike Ben who really isn't qualified to be an instructor. Besides, the PT managed to take a favourite character of mine and make him one of my least favourite. When I watch the OT, I really have to force the PT Yoda out of my mind.

In my view, I think the primary responsibility of the PT is (1) to convincingly show the fall of Anakin Skywalker. The word I keep coming back to is "seduced" by the dark side of the force. I just don't see that in Lucas' PT. I don't believe that the kid I'm watching becomes the Dark Lord of the Sith in the OT (dispite the new ending to Jedi).

Which brings me to my primary question in rethinking this whole thing: Why would someone like Anakin/Vader willingly server someone like Palpatine for 20 someodd years? If I could answer that question to my satisfaction, I would really have something. Lucas' PT doesn't do it for me.

(2) To preserve the OT and enhance it if possible, not destroy it. My preferred watching may always be OT first, then PT... but I don't think there's any excuse for not being able to watch them "in order." I mentioned the Yoda thing (talking about him instead of showing him enhances the surprise in Empire, instead of deflating it), of course the Vader bit. And people mentioned the twins.

Here's my solution to the Vader problem. If the PT doesn't link Anakin with Vader=no problem. We know Anakin's last name was Skywalker (a la Luke, of course) and we know that his wife was pregnant when we last saw her. So when the OT opens up with Luke Skywalker, we conclude that he is the child of the aforementioned pregnancy. The other part to this solution: Leave Anakin for dead after the Obi-Wan VS Anakin show down. We show that he became corrupted by the dark side and we his "death." As long as other Dark Jedi are show throughout the PT helping Palpatine accomplish his goal of total Galactic Domination!, then we don't suspect that Darth Vader is anything but another cronie. I think the continuos bad-guy-shuffle hurts the PT, but if trying to preserve the OT's surprise, it actually helps. (only, of course, if you don't show DV at the end of Episode III).

Anyways... I've got to go wrap my wife's birthday stuff. So maybe I'll tune in a little later.

Xhonzi


Post
#152361
Topic
Help: looking for... 'Comics Superheroes Unmasked' - Discovery channel documentary
Time
This brings up an interesting question of ethics and morales.

They charge 24.95 + shipping for this DVD. Had I gotten to my DVD recorder at the right moment, I would have my own copy of this. Many TV shows that aren't resold (at a ludicrous price or otherwise) are offered up for share after they air.

I understand the purpose of MySpleen and others seems to be that they offer programs that are not officially available. I appreciate that.

But I guess it really irks me that they charge so much for their 2 hour programs. I just bought Episdoe III for $15 (no shipping) and it has 20x the content at probably 20x the original cost. So why they think it will be worth 2x as much to me is a bit of a mystery.

Anyway, I've voiced my complaint and I'm sure few will agree with me. In the mean time, I guess I'll either go without, keep looking for someone willing to share, or just wait for the darn thing to come back on TV.


Xhonzi
(And you're right, it was the history channel, not discovery)
Post
#152168
Topic
Help: looking for... 'Comics Superheroes Unmasked' - Discovery channel documentary
Time

This is extremely off topic since it’s not a fan edit or a restoration of anysort…

But I’m looking for a copy of this Discovery Channel doco… It was on TV, but I was at work where I couldn’t record it.

I figured someone here would probably know where I could score a copy. I was surprised it wasn’t on myspleen.net.

Thanks!

Xhonzi