xhonzi

It's true Warbler.  You've never been in a movie.  I'm going to have to side with my fellow Naboobian here.

Gaffer Tape said:

I'm sorry, but this is a problem that must be dealt with swiftly and with the highest severity.  No mercy.  They have two hours to comply, and then let the beating/devouring begin!

xhonzi said:

Yeah, I use Gaffer as my moral centre too.  If she's down with it...

Yes.  I am very pretty.  Don't forget it.

Forget it?  Never.  It's part of what makes your argument so compelling!

Ah, who am I kidding?  It's the only reason I read your posts, let alone foolishly follow you into with all of these idealistic crusades you embark upon!

Sluggo, you have your sock and gloves and I have my Master Replicas lightsabre off the shelf... now we just need an actual Sarlacc pit...

Stampede said:

Anger, fear, aggression;  the dark side of the Force are they. Easily they flow, quick to join you in a fight

Good!  We'll probably need some for the unholy deed we're about to commit.  Are there any younglings we can take out along the way?

Crap.  Brent is going to kill me.

C3PX said:

Xhonzi, I must say, I am very glad you joined the ranks of the regular posters. It was cool and all back when you'd pop in and write a post or two from time to time then disappear for a while, but now I am afraid I'd find this place a bit boring if your posting frequency were to go decrease.

Oh, and I am not just saying this in hopes of keeping myself off your ignore list, irregardless of the fact that it may seem that way.

 What a way to ruin a compliment...

Yeah, I use Gaffer as my moral centre too.  If she's down with it...

Umm... So you and Warbler would have some great conversations, eh?

Gaffer Tape said:

xhonzi said:

TheBoost said:

 The X-Men.

They have a move series, multiple cartoon series, mangas, novels, actionfigures, tabletop games, and even comicbooks, and no one is having apoleptic fits trying to make those all tie in together into a seemless chronology. They don't even try to keep it consistent between properties. 

 X-Men comicbooks?  You're making that up!

Aw, darn, you beat me to that.  I can't believe that X-Men has become so popular that they've even branched out into comic books!  ^_~

Ths reminds me of a conversation I had semi-recently at work.  I'm known as a lot of things at work (some unmentionable) and one is: "The Comic book Guy".  (Not the same as the Simpson's Comicbook Guy.)  So a guy (we'll just call him guy to protect his identity) comes over to me and says:

GUY: I walked past the magazines the other day and I saw a new Superman comic.

ME : Oh?

GUY: Yeah, it was the stupidest thing!  On the cover, it showed Superman fighting an alien!

ME : ...

GUY: I mean, they must be so out of ideas if Superman is now fighting aliens!

ME : Brent... you do know that Superman IS an alien, right?

Guy: ...

ME : From the Planet Krypton?

Guy: Yeah... but.

ME : No.

And then I turned and walked away.  I think someone said, "Oh, Snap!" but maybe that was just in my head.

TheBoost said:

xhonzi said:

And I guess along those lines... Hobbit -> LotR.

 I guess I can see your point, but LOTR grows from and deepens the Hobbit in a thematically similar (although admitedly wildly different in tone and style) story in the same setting.

"Riddick" is hardly recognizable as the same fictional universe as "Pitch Black."

Its like if the 1960s Batman show and "The Dark Knight"were seen as sequals. Same characters, and they seem to have some relation, but the connection is extremely hard to follow.

Yeah, what I mostly meant there is that the target audience of Hobbit was youngish kids.  The target audience of the LotR was considerably older.  And, as you said, different in tone and style.

Riddick goes from a smallish one-off story on a single planet to a full fledged space opera with various cultures, prophecies, and magic.  So it's a little more extreme, but I was hoping the cancelled sequels would make for an interesting trilogy.  Then the Hobbit -> LotR and Pitch Black -> Riddick Trilogy comparison would hold more weight.

Anchorhead, perhaps you'd like the site I started: theresoneandonlyone2001movieanditcameoutin1968.com

That's a little more extreme than what I was thinking (I was going to get them avatars for Christmas) but I think I can go with it.

Vaderisnothayden said:

xhonzi said:

Come now, it's a what if question.  We all know it's an EU story, but why can't it cast implications back on events in the RotJ?  The point of the EU is to get more of something you like, is it not?  If so, don't you want it to actually cause you to revisit the thing that you like and maybe see it in a new light?

No way. The EU stuff is just some merchandising story thought up years later. It's alien to ROTJ. Its implications don't belong in ROTJ. To see ROTJ in the light of EU material like DE or Zahn's books is to pollute and twist the core canon with alien material that doesn't belong.

I can revisit ROTJ quite well with without dragging the EU into it. And the point of the eu is make money for lucas and that's all it's for.

Fair enough.  Is the point of RotJ any different then?  Is the point of any consumable any different?

 Did we ever get a comprehensive list of things that the Force could and couldn't do?  I must have missed that.

I never said we got such a list. But there doesn't need to be any such list for my point to stand. The point is that we never got any indication that the force could do that (transfer minds into clones), so there's no reason why we should assume Palpatine's likely to go transferring his mind into clones.

Did we see any clones in the OT?  Did you see a Rancor in ANH or ESB?  Did you see Hoth in ANH?  Did anyone ever mention Yoda prior to ESB?  Did anyone says <SPOILER> Vader was Luke's dad and Leia was Luke's sister </SPOILER> when the characters were introduced in ANH?

If you don't like the story, that's fine.  But if you want to discuss this with me, please let's discuss it at the same level.  If I ask what I think is a well thought out question and you respond with: "Teh prequels suck!" then we're not really discussing anything, are we?

I'm hardly merely saying I don't like something. I'm refusing to go along with your attempt to reinterpret ROTJ in the light of DE, because I don't agree with doing that. I'm perfectly entitled to go that way if I want to.

Yes, you are.  I assume I am likewise entitled to go my own way?  Fleetwood Mac says that I can!

 My argument that such EU-based reinterpretation of ROTJ/the OT is mistaken is a valid point of view.

 Is my saying that it is "not mistaken" also a valid point of view?

I also discussed the viability of the argument that it was logical to assume from what we saw in the films that Palpatine would go resurrecting himself in clones that had his mind. I pointed out that the films did not provide enough to support the argument that it naturally followed from the films that Palpatine would go resurrecting himself in clones that had his mind. I do think we're discussing something. But both of us are entitled to discuss it in the way we choose.

Seriously, I don't want to ruin your fun and all,

Where's that picture of Tommy Lee Jones when I need it?

but I feel very strongly that eu doesn't belong in the OT and I think I'm entitled to express that view. (And if that's how I feel, imagine how I feel about Bash Fender's ship the Outsider or whatever being put in the SE.)

VINH- I think you made some great strides in this post.  You actually called your opinion an "opinion."  As far as I've seen, that's a first.  You get into some strange arguments here because you usually saunter in declaring your opinion as fact and casting down anyone who doesn't agree with you.  I think you'd get on better here if you were a little more aware of other people's opinions.

So, you don't like the EU.  At all.  Fine.  This is obviously a thread about the EU.  While we (or I alone, as the case may be here) want to get into the weeds and discuss the finer points, we don't really want you to come crashing through our sandbox, knocking down my lovely castle, and telling us you don't like sand.  The question was, and yes this is more articulate here than it was above: "If you accept the EU, how does Vader's sacrifice change in light of Palpatine's clones?"  Saying the EU sucks is pretty much a troll answer to that question.

Oh, I'll do it.  I can tell you that right now.

I WANT MY LITE BRITE!!!!

Vaderisnothayden said:

 

Vader knew it would kill the Emperor, because it did kill the Emperor. The Emperor's clones is just an eu story element thought up later and has no bearing on interpretation of events in ROTJ. And of course Vader was saving Luke from death.

Come now, it's a what if question.  We all know it's an EU story, but why can't it cast implications back on events in the RotJ?  The point of the EU is to get more of something you like, is it not?  If so, don't you want it to actually cause you to revisit the thing that you like and maybe see it in a new light?

As for Palpatine transferring himself to clones via the force, there was never any indication before then (or in any of the films) that the force could do that.

 Did we ever get a comprehensive list of things that the Force could and couldn't do?  I must have missed that.

If you don't like the story, that's fine.  But if you want to discuss this with me, please let's discuss it at the same level.  If I ask what I think is a well thought out question and you respond with: "Teh prequels suck!" then we're not really discussing anything, are we?

I work in an industry with a high percentage of Star Trek geeks.  As far as I know, they all loved it.  I am a casual fan... and it turns out I picked more nits than they did.

I guess I'm just a nit-picker.

We need to do something with all of these grey boxes.  CO, SomethingsomethingDarkSide, and Davis... you're on my list!

<YODA> Do.  Or not not.  There is no try. </YODA>

<PALPATINE> You will pay for your lack of vision! </PALPATINE>

Ric, would you mind copying in some of your FB updates.  I bet those would be... priceless.

Sometimes I let my short-fused, gramatically correct temper get the best of me.  But I get over it pretty quickly.

TV's Frink said:

It was because of my use of the word "irregardless" which was done intentionally to see if I would get ignored.  It worked, but now apparently I'm un-ignored.  Try it, see what happens.  It's like controlling a puppet.

<VADER> You think you are being treated <HOO PAH> unfairly? </VADER>

 I will let that one slide, because it is in quotes.  But please refer to it from now on, as the non-word.

TV's Frink said:

Irregardless, I'm not going to worry about it.

 Just when I think... "Hey, he's on my friend list... I'm on his...  let's let it be water under the bridge, bygones and bygones and the like..."  So, I unignore you.  Then I see your extremely witty: "lol" post...  And now this...

SHUN!

i mean...

IGNORE!

TV's Frink said:

MJPollard said:

If you want an opinion that isn't infused with a metric buttload of PT hatred...

lol

 This is the kind of witty post I would have missed out on?  Hmmm... I should have left you ignored.

I knew my brilliant title couldn't be original.  :(

In the conceipt of Dark Empire, the Emperor is tranferring his dark soul into each new clone.  The clones themselves are just blank until then- you never see a living clone besides whoever is Emperor Prime.  And since the transfer is done via the "magic" part of Star Wars (vice the "science" part) then Palpatine can tell us that it is in fact his own consciousness that is being transferred, his veritable quintessence and not merely a copy.  So while your concerns about clone uprisings or the "is it really me?" conundrum might apply to other cloning fictions (or facts!), the author has specifically headed you off at this particular pass.

RE: The Sith Legacy
Obviously the PT makes Palpatine out to be the currnet head of the Sith order, dedicated body and soul to... whatever it is the Sith are supposed to be dedicated to... (Communism?)  However, in the OT and it's associated novels and Topps trading cards, Vader only is referred to as the Dark Lord of the Sith.  It is plain that Palpatine is an evil Force-Person (thank you, Boost) and that he is Vader's master... but it is not clear that he is actually a Sith.  I definitely get the impression that he and Vader have some different ideas regarding the Force.  As I have claimed before, I think that Vader still lives by some sort of moral code (or "ancient religion" if you will) and I don't know that I think the same of Palpatine.  Is Palpatine dedicated to the Sith?  Or is he dedicated to himself?  Unfortunately, we were never really told what he wanted to do with all of the power he was accruing. 

RE: Why Palpatine would want to live forever:
So here's my thought: The Jedi live in Harmony with the Universe.  The result of this clean living is that the Jedi naturally "become one with the Force" at their physical deaths and move on to a form of immortality.  Their eternal reward.  The evil Force-People (thank you, Boost) live in disharmony, trying to impose their will on the Universe.  At their physical deaths, the Universe smothers their flame and they are destroyed forever.  Their eternal punishment.  BUT!  If you could cheat life AND cheat death...  You could have the best of both worlds.  Your day of reckoning, your day of punishment, would never come.

RE: Vader's sacrifice:
In my opinion, Vader's sacrifice involves all three people in the room, and what happens to Palpatine is actually the least important part.  Vader saves Luke, that's the important piece.  Let me ask you a question:  What is Vader saving Luke from?  After years of thinking it was death, as a father now I take it completely differently. 

I think a lot of fathers pass on qualities and traits to their kids (especially their sons) that make them proud of them.  I think they also pass on weaknesses and bad habits that make them feel guilty for doing so.  As a parent, one of my top priorities is to help my kids be better at the things that I am particularly bad at.  I lack a certain amount of self discipline and it affects me in every part of my life.  It's a quality I share with/possibly learned from/inherited from my father.  I can already tell my young kids suffer from the same problem.  And so I try to find ways to help them learn that now so they don't have to keep repeating the "sins of the fathers."

So, back to Vader & Luke... What is Vader saving Luke from?  And does that change if Palpatine isn't permanently killed by Vader's sacrifice.  Can we assume that Vader probably knew it wouldn't actually kill the Emperor?  Then why did he still do what he did?  I think it personalizes the sacrifice to Vader and Luke, which is awesome.

Marvel solved this problem a long time ago by giving up and loving the multiverse.  It's all canon, baby!  It's just non all Marvel-616 canon.  You do this long enough, and you get the first half of the Exiles!  But then you do Exiles long enough and you get the last half of the Exiles... :(