darth_ender said:
timdiggerm said:
But I definitely agree, there is no threshold
Great!
(except admittedly we Mormons believe in a few essential ordinances).
Oh uh.... but you said.... that's a contradiction?
Which is why I used the word "except". I am going by the words of Jesus, who said "he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved," and "Except a man be born of water and of the spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." Baptism: an essential ordinance, spoken by Jesus, who I think never contradicted Paul, but even if he did, I would trust him over Paul.
Let's look at that in context.
John 3:1-8 said:
Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. This man came to Jesus by night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him.” Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?” Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
Water for the flesh, spirit for the spirit. Now, I don't know if the water is baptism or embryonic fluid - which would fit pretty well with the born again theme - but I think he's saying that birth of the spirit is the important part. Also that such things are as mysterious as the wind?
Christ is the judge if our actions were pure and motivated by faith. He doesn't have a set scale for everyone. He judges us individually. I also agree that if one is truly converted and has faith in Christ, the good works will follow on their own, and any true disciple shouldn't even have to worry about how much good they are doing. A true convert simply does good for the sake of love and discipleship.
It is helpful, in terms of motivation, to not have works and salvation so tied together.
I don't disagree with you. Whenever I have the opportunity, I try to emphasize grace above works. I think the hangup in the minds of many members of my church is ultimately an overreaction to the extreme rejection of works altogether, as if they didn't matter. They do. I don't believe a simple prayer is enough to truly accept Christ into my heart, nor keep him there. But the truth is I think the Protestant definition is actually closer to the truth than the popular but incorrect mormon view.
wait wait wait what is this "nor keep him there" stuff? The Father gives the Son his sheep, and no one can snatch them out of his hand.
