theprequelsrule

zombie84 said:

SpenceEdit did a very nice--and pretty radical--re-cut of Jedi that made me enjoy it for the first time in a decade. It still has some drama and narrative problems, but it was an interesting take on it all. But like the PT I don't believe any amount of editing or SE-ing can fix the film, they can only make it watchable, and there are so many great movies out there, constantly coming out, that it's ultimately a waste of time to devote 2.5 hours just to see something "watchable", knowing beforehand it will never be particularly great.

ROTJ just has too many problems, and they are too firmly integrated to simply be cut around. On their own, one or two of them would be digestible, because the previous two films had flaws too. But together, they are too much, even though I love watching the ensemble together again, I think I would prefer to watch Revenge of the Sith.

-Jabbas palace takes up something like 45 minutes of the film. Too much. I like this sequence, actually, but it goes on for too long.

-Too many puppets and masks throughout the film. I like the uber-exotic style Lucas wanted for the film--but show some restraint. The film goes just a bit too far into Peewees Playhouse territory. When the dance scene comes on, even in 1983, the film stopped dead.

-Recycled plot. This is maybe the most uninteresting thing about the film. More cantina aliens, another Death Star battle. The original script which was set on Coruscant was much more interesting.

-The actors have no real drama. Carrie Fisher sleep-walks through the film and Harrison Ford looks like he is doing a parody of Han Solo--and did someone chop his balls off or what? The character has none of the passion or wit of the other films. But more than that, the character relationships have no tension. Lando and Han are best buds again, for some reason. Luke and Han do nothing but pat each other on the back. Luke somehow is in love with his father now, when the last time we saw him he was babbling to himself in a bloody, teary mess "Ben, why didn't you tell me..." Luke shows up just in time for Yoda to announce he is about to die, and then does. And somehow, Luke was busy for like 4 months to both to finish his training--which he is conveniently told he no longer needs. And then Sister Leia is introduced and the whole storyline implodes on itself--oh well, just enjoy the fireworks. At least the final quarter with Luke and Vader was well done though. Those scenes are as good as anything in ESB, but they are sadly inconsistent with the rest of film.

-Ewoks. As was said, the film revolves around midgets in Disneyland bear costumes who do comedy for thirty minutes and then throw some rocks at stormtroopers, all the while taking only a single casualty that gets his own violin solo to tug at our heart strings.

-Bad dialogue. Despite a couple good quips, the characters don't really have the wit or dimension of even the first film. And sometimes they say too much. One moment that added a lot of dimension to Han was removing the line about the Falcon, "I have a funny feeling like I'm not going to see her again." Instead we see Han looking at the Falcon worried, and we know what he is feeling, we get a private moment with him that no one else sees, and it says a lot about who he is.

-The Emperor. Even though he has become a classic in a sort of cheesy way, if you consider the trajectory of ESB this seems a let down. This is the guy Vader is so scared of? Freaking Gargamel from the Smurfs? All he does is sit there and goad Luke to turn to the darkside, as though the mere suggestion of it is enough to turn him. If I were Luke I'd kill him just to shut him up, which is what I take it Luke was doing when he brought his lightsaber down on his cackling face. The ending moment is good though, but even then if that's how easy it was to kill him I wonder why Vader just didn't push him down the stairs twenty years earlier.

-Bad locations. This one is being a bit nit picky. But Endor is nothing too interesting. It's clearly California, and the few sand-dunes we see on Tatooine are kinda dull too. The Red wood forests offered some interesting photography possibilities but no such luck.

-Bad cinematography. After the beautiful, gorgeous ESB maybe we got spoiled. But films like this that rely on design have to be lit and framed a certain way, and what we got looked like it was intended for a made-for-TV movie. The first Star Wars had that simple style of cinematography too, but it is infinitely more interesting, and with far smaller a budget. Part of the reason I find ROTJ dull is because its so damn boring to look at. If the writing and directing are going to be mediocre, at least give me something visually interesting--this at least the prequels could do.

Finally...there's just something missing. I don't know what. Maybe its just the sum of the total list of complaints above. But there's just a feeling that isn't there. When the Rebel pilots are rushing to their ships in the Yavin hanger, or when the snowspeeders are rushing out and everyone is trying to leave the Hoth base--somehow, when a giant fish walks into a sparkling clean rebel briefing room and a CG hologram of Endor materialises in the centre, it's just not the same. It's not exciting, even if the advanced graphics and exotic design should make it more interesting. But it's not really.

You add up all these things: story, character, dialogue, mis-en-scene, entire sequences, cinematography, casting and locations...that's pretty much the whole movie. You can't re-edit that, you have to re-write and re-film from the ground up. The only thing that's not on that list is music, editing and visual effects, which are all thankfully pretty top notch--the editing is a bit quick, but that's more to do with the script. Some scenes, like on Endor, are not nearly quick enough. But taking a boring scene and cutting it fast doesn't solve anything--you just have a fast-cut boring scene.

If I were to do ROTJ, I wouldn't include a single scene from the actual film, except maybe the conversation between Luke and Vader on the Endor base and the "I am a Jedi" moment. I would throw away the entire film and start over. You probably wouldn't see Tatooine, you wouldn't see Endor, and you wouldn't see a Death Star, and none of the character arcs would be the same either. And with that, you wouldn't have Return of the Jedi, you'd have something totally else, a Sequel to Empire Strikes Back.

Yikes. And yet...you liked Indy IV?

xhonzi said:

4a. I kind of wish these games didn't have fast travel.  I liked in Morrowind how you had to pay a taxi if you wanted to fast travel, and not all taxis went everywhere.

Agreed. One of the reasons I preferred Morrowind to Oblivion.

zombie84 said:

Shakespeare spoiled lots of his endings in the first few lines of his plays. That becomes part of the dramatic suspense--you know the ultimate fate of the story, but what you don't know if how things unfold, who does what, and knowing how things turn out gives you new dramatic mechanisms to use. You can use it to mislead and twist the viewer, knowing she or he expects certain things, or you can use their knowledge to play up the drama. A more banal instance of the latter is in horror films where the audience knows a monster is lurking behind a door but a character doesn't--the suspense becomes not "is there a monster behind the door?" but instead, "no, don't open that door!" and then the audience has to squirm in suspense wondering how the character will survive.

Anyway, most blockbuster movies like Star Wars are predictable. Will Luke beat the bad guys? Yes. Will he save the princess? Yes. Will he survive the ordeal? Very probably. But how does he beat the bad guys, what situations does he have to get himself out of, and how does the princess get rescued? This is the suspense structure of Star Wars. That's also one reason why it was downright shocking when Luke got his ass kicked in ESB and all the good guys lost--that's not supposed to happen!!

This is true of 2011. I don't know if this was as true in 1977. Remember, Star Wars was only the second "blockbuster". 

Two points in regards to the "does predictability negate tension" argument:

First, I feel that if a movie really draws you in you aren't sitting back and analyzing it. You aren't thinking to yourself; "I know what happens next". Very few films do this. I remember one reviewer saying how he had completely forgotten Han Solo because the space battle at the end was so exciting. Result? When the Falcon swoops down out of the sun to save Luke it is an incredible moment (original audiences were cheering in their seats). Should we, as adults, have guessed that Han would come back? Yes. But did we? No. That is what it means to have made an engrossing experience and a great film.

Second; making a prequel is not the same as making a predictable film. In a prequel we know right down to the specific details the fates of the characters (killed by Darth Vader in a duel on the Death Star to allow Luke and his friends to escape). I'm sorry, but you cannot have any drama if these characters are central to the film.

Conclusion - the prequels main character should have been Luke and Leia's mother, since her fate was the only one that was somewhat in doubt (pre-prequel fandom often debated if she really had died or not).

xhonzi said:

theprequelsrule said:

Anchorhead said:

All goofing aside;  Even though I do sometimes touch on it, you guys have no idea how much I hate the idea of the Prequels - as they were released.  The story, execution, casting, Lucas' revision of history, etc. I find it all vulgar.

A prequel story? - absolutely.  Prequel story Lucas released? - absolutely not.

The problem with the prequels - besides all the problems you listed - is that there can be no drama or tension when the outcome is already known to the audience. I mean, we know Obi-wan is not going to die in them right?

 

Bologna.

How likely is it that James Bond is going to die in any of the movies he's in, or Superman, or Luke or Han in the OT? 

That fear of danger or death is mostly irrational in practically all of the movies we watch and enjoy.  The fact that it's irrational and that we know better doesn't mean it can't still be suspenseful.

But we don't know the outcome. We can guess, but we don't know. That small doubt is important.

At any rate the Bond films are poor examples - very light and shallow entertainment based almost entirely on infantile wish fulfillment and the fantasies of the bored middle-class. The books are a little better.

Anchorhead said:

All goofing aside;  Even though I do sometimes touch on it, you guys have no idea how much I hate the idea of the Prequels - as they were released.  The story, execution, casting, Lucas' revision of history, etc. I find it all vulgar.

A prequel story? - absolutely.  Prequel story Lucas released? - absolutely not.

The problem with the prequels - besides all the problems you listed - is that there can be no drama or tension when the outcome is already known to the audience. I mean, we know Obi-wan is not going to die in them right?

TV's Frink said:

xhonzi said:

Oh, a bongo bongo bongo, I don't want to leave the congo (oh, no no no no no!).

Master, what's a bongo?

Lol.

Despite all the things New Vegas did better that FO3 (companions, weapon mods, factions etc.) it lacked the atmosphere and the sense of sadness I always felt in FO3.  Greatness is about intangibles.

In FO3 you always felt humanity was just barely holding on; which was a much more compelling situation than the universe as presented in New Vegas.

TheBoost said:

theprequelsrule said:

Was not the whole modern ROTJ backlash started by that Kevin Smith guy?

?????

Not that I doubt that the narcissistic hater would have done so, but how?

I'm not sure how this idea got into my head; I feel it was something I read or was told some time ago. Maybe I'll do a little research.

Kevin Smith did Clerks right? He's the same guy?

Bingowings said:

But BACK ON TOPIC.

What about the backwards stretching story thread in Alien?

Ash being on board couldn't be just a coincidence.

 

He was sent to protect the Alien - which creates all sorts of questions that we may get (unsatisfactory) answers for in Prometheus.

How did The Company know that the find was valuable? A prior encounter seems the most likely explanation

Why is the Alien considered more valuable than any of the Space Jockey technology that might be salvageable?

Why not just send in a specialized team to grab some of the eggs and take them to an isolated research facility?

There was tremendous emotional payoff when we see the ghost of Anakin - I love the entire Funeral Pyre for a Jedi and Ewok Celebration sequence. Yubb Nubb!

Was not the whole modern ROTJ backlash started by that Kevin Smith guy?

off topic: wouldn't a criterion collection trilogy consisting of THX 1138, American Graffiti, and Star Wars be awesome? This popped into my head because of some of the discussion about the high quality of George's films in the 70s. I remember a movie reviewer talking about the similar themes in all three of these films - that they could be considered a trilogy of sorts; the parallels between Kurt in AG and Luke in SW are interesting.

on topic: I actually liked Dark Empire - except for the return of Boba Fett. It was nice to see Leia getting to be a Jedi at last. I really enjoyed the artwork and aesthetic of the universe as well. The early 90s were great times for the EU - and Star Wars in general. We all had such dreams then...

Yeah, Anchorhead should definitely pick up some of the Tales of the Old Republic stuff. Tom Veitch understood Star Wars.

I quite enjoyed the first Crimson Empire series as well.

Harmy said:

ray_afraid just posted this idea and I really like it:

http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/The-ANH-SE-Redux-Ideas-thread-Radical-Ideas-Welcome/post/517128/#TopicPost517128

Interesting. I think a lot of us old guys are obsessed with integrating the Biggs scenes since they were so prominent in the early literature supplements (the novelization, the storybook etc.).

I really miss the read along records. "You will know it is time to turn the page when you hear R2D2 beep like this; 'dweet-doo-doo, dwee-dweet'. Let's begin now..."

This is a BUMP.

I have never watched any fan edits, and probably never will, but from the screenshots Lee's version looks like it captures the theatrical look better than any of the others (see official screenshots thread to compare). The skin tones especially; they look completely natural.

From some of the pics, it definitely looks like the movie is about the Space Jockey species (unless there is a massive misdirection campaign). Scott has always talked about this as something he wanted to explore - he mentions it  in the Alien Director's Commentary.

Bingowings; let's hear your reasons why Aliens is overrated.

Anchorhead said:

captainsolo said:

... or make a visual companion to the radio drama. (Anchorhead that would be right up your alley...;)

 Because I'm more familiar with the larger story now, I'd dig a version like that.  It could be done (provided you have the footage).  The story starts one day sooner than the film, but it's still handled in such a way that the central character is introduced properly.  The isolated\outcast\dreamer farm boy is established immediately and is the main focus of the first chapter.

It opens with him listening to a recruiting presentation to the Imperial Space Academy, alone, out in that tech dome we all know so well.  A friend comes over and then they go to visit all their other friends (Camie, Fixer, Deke). Once they're there, Deke makes fun of him for listening to the recruiting presentation and  they all tease him about his higher aspirations. The friend that came over to visit him is the first one to turn on him. 

That all establishes the character we know and sets the ground work for his being seen as an outsider, even by his only friends.  They also manage to name check Biggs so that you know Luke misses him.  I don't know about there ever being footage shot for anything like that.  I'd have to reread Kaminski's book or the original script.

The second day into the story is the part we all know from seeing the footage through the years -  the vaporator scene - "shape it up you guys" - watching the space battle - Biggs coming back - the two of them saying goodbye, etc. 

I've read plenty of articles and interviews through the years discussing the pacing of the 77 version and their thoughts on introducing the characters in the way & order they did.  I certainly have no issue with the 77 film.  It works very well.  However, I've grown to prefer the NPR.  A fan version rearranged to fit the NPR would be something I'd certainly give a look.

 

Quite frankly, I would trust the judgement of the senior film crew from 1976; the cutting of these scenes were for the best.

I understand what you are saying, and I enjoyed the way the Anchorhead scenes were presented in the novelization, but I think that following the droids almost completely uninterrupted for the first 30 minutes or so was one of the most bold and unique decisions made in the film. I don't feel Luke is introduced too late - with only a few lines of dialogue and a great visual (the famous binary sunset) we know all we need to of this aspirations and disappointments.

Just my $0.02.

Bingowings said:

As someone who only liked Aliens as an action film and not as a continuation of the story of Alien I would hope for something better than that fun but overrated film.

Dems' fightin' words!

captainsolo said:

The Bonds are what did it.

Yes, I did not like those at all.

Ridley Scott has been mediocre for at least a decade now, but I am happy to hear that they will be using a lot of traditional special effects rather than CGI.

When it comes to our desire for sequels or prequels - we are looking for something that recreates the feelings we experience when watching the originals, but it is a fool's errand. Movies exist within a certain cultural context; Star Wars could only have been Star Wars in the summer of '77, and even had TPM been a good film, we still have not had that "peak experience" that we are looking for.

I hope Prometheus is a good film - but do not expect it to resonate with you like Alien or Aliens did (even if somehow it actually is as good as those films).

To be honest, I'm still using a SD television and DVD player - I was just shocked at how the movies looked when I was at my brothers place.

I appreciate the clarifications from Harm and Ash.

I know I should be excited by this, but I'm just not. Lucas and his cronies have really worn me out. If we ever get a proper release of the OOT I think the emotion I feel will be one of relief rather than joy.

Sorry to be such a downer folks. I really need 5pm to come so I can get home and get drunk.

doubleofive said:

 

theprequelsrule said:

You're right! We would all be crazy for not being complete consumer whores and replacing are completely functional 360 consoles with these new ones!

I'm pretty sure the components to add to my xbox to make it like the R2 box would even out the cost:

Kinect Sensor with Kinect Adventures: $150
250 GB Hard Drive: $130
Kinect Star Wars: $60
New Controller: $50

That's a total of almost $400. So for $150 more, I could get all that, a bigger hard drive, and an xbox that isn't pushing 4 years old that gets really hot when you have it on for more than half an hour that I can sell for at least $100.

Sounds better all the time.

 

I hear you. On the other hand I have a newer X-box with the 250 hdrive, plus I think with Kinect is stupid, so it makes no sense to me.

Plus, I hate everything Star Wars related these days. The prequels and the terrible past 11 years of EU have left me scarred.

TV's Frink said:

 

captainsolo said:

1st thought: silly.

But it beeps. Like R2!

 

You're right! We would all be crazy for not being complete consumer whores and replacing are completely functional 360 consoles with these new ones!

Ziggy Stardust said:

You would think the controller would be R2 and the console would be 3PO, considering that 3PO is taller in the movies.

That would have made sense, but Star Wars Inc. sucks so bad these days we shouldn't be surprised.

(sighing in depression)