theprequelsrule

Pretty simple then. Thanks Chainsaw.

TV's Frink said:

theprequelsrule said:

ChainsawAsh said:

pittrek said:

Wow, am I the only person who LOVES AOTC ?

I think so.  That movie's a worthless piece of dogshit if you ask me.  No redeeming value whatsoever, and that isn't hyperbole on my part.

Stop dancing around the issue Chainsaw; tell me how you really feel.

I don't think he should until you answer for this crazy 8-ball system.

I'm quite fond of it. It came to me in a moment of inspiration in the middle of writing the post. If you quiet your mind Frink you can hear the midichlorians whispering the 8-ball system to you too.

It was worth it just for the sequence of the alliance fighters and the Falcon flying into the superstructure. Awesome.

I think I'll watch ROTJ when I get home.

ChainsawAsh said:

pittrek said:

Wow, am I the only person who LOVES AOTC ?

I think so.  That movie's a worthless piece of dogshit if you ask me.  No redeeming value whatsoever, and that isn't hyperbole on my part.

Stop dancing around the issue Chainsaw; tell me how you really feel.

TV's Frink said:

  I'll show my work if necessary.

For having such audacity you damn well better!

TV's Frink said:

ROTJ - 4 balls

TPM - 4 balls

 

And yes, I actually like TPM about the same as ROTJ.  *shrug*

*minor stroke*

Legend:

8 - As close to perfect as possible

7 - Great

6 - Very Good

5 - Good

4 - Average

3 - Poor

2 - Bad

1 - Terrible

Star Wars: 8

Empire Strikes Back: 7

Return of the Jedi: 6

The Phantom Menace: 2

Attack of the Clones: 1

Revenge of the Sith: 2

Can someone explain the difference to me? Harmy, Zombie?

@twooffour: My point is that extensive use of special effects and "superjumping-awesome-ninja-jedi" -  which is what Aluminum Falcon seems to have wanted for ROTJ - make Star Wars worse, not better.

twooffour said:

theprequelsrule said:

The Aluminum Falcon said:

Hmm... perhaps the most glaring thing of ROTJ to me about the movie is its lack of grandeur and its wholly inconsistent tone.

I probably would have made Endor a far more exotic planet, maybe filled with unearthly plants... It wouldn't look like Earth's forests.

An aesthetic change I'd make is having Luke have a red lightsaber and Darth Vader have a blue light saber, having retrieved his old lightsaber from the duel on Cloud City. It would be like the "Revenge" poster and also hint at a change in the two characters. Vader going back too good and Luke possibly falling to the Dark Side. It would enhance the reverse symbolism greatly in the end duel... speaking of duels,

Another thing I would have is a double-duel between Obi-Wan and the Emperor and Vader and Luke. As in the early drafts, Obi-Wan would have been resurrected back in the flesh with more power than Vader imagined... equal if not better to the Emperor. The Vader and Luke duel would be lightsabers, as in the movie. On the other hand, the other duel would be using the force... going as far as to shift the environment with the force. It would be somewhat like Scanners...

Speaking of Scanners, I think that ROTJ could have used a better director to fix the wholly inconsistent tone. It would have been nice to have either Croenberg or Spielberg. Croenberg could have provided a much more cerebral ending, while Spielberg could focus on the "family" aspect of the movie, since it's a recurring theme of his movies

I'm sorry my man, but all these ideas are terrible. The irony is that they sound like something that post-1990 George Lucas would approve of. Shifting the environment with the force? Really? Sometimes less is more and The force works much better as a concept when it is something subtle - but that went out the door with ESB.

... a movie where Lucas had very little impact on during its production.

Fail.

It may shock you to learn that not everyone, even those who despise the prequels, believes ESB to be the best of the Star Wars films.

danny_boy said:

 

 

 

 

 

Zombie wrote:

-Jabbas palace takes up something like 45 minutes of the film. Too much. I like this sequence, actually, but it goes on for too long.

In the context of 1983, it was electrifying to see Luke display the kind of powers(for the 1st time on the sail barge) that had been implied about  Jedi knights in the previous 2 movies(but never seen)
At the time no one had seen a  Jedi deflect laser blast shots with a lightsaber and summersault off a plank!.

This was also the completion of the arc---from the Luke that gets beaten and bundled around  by the sandpeople and the monsters in the cantina in Ep IV to the Luke who struggles to make a combative  impression on Vader in ESB  to this Luke in ROTJ who almost single handedly beats Jabba's entourage. It is this evolution in Luke's fighting skills that provides the contrast with the earlier films

 -Too many puppets and masks throughout the film. I like the uber-exotic style Lucas wanted for the film--but show some restraint. The film goes just a bit too far into Peewees Playhouse territory. When the dance scene comes on, even in 1983, the film stopped dead.

I saw the film twice in 83 and it most certainly did not stop dead(for me!)---The dance provided the superficial entertainment before the drama(Introduction of Busch and the Rancor scene).It also racked up the anticipation of seeing the Frozen Solo  being released.
Sometimes you need balance---- a film of this nature( the optomistic/climactic conclusion to a series of entertaining films THAT DO  NOT TAKE THEMSELVES SERIOUSLY-yes even Empire!) cannot be pulled down by consistent dramatic tension.Dramatic tension must oscillate throughout this type of film---not remain constant.

  -Recycled plot. This is maybe the most uninteresting thing about the film. More cantina aliens, another Death Star battle. The original script which was set on Coruscant was much more interesting.

Well people tend to forget that the Falcon was chased by Stardestroyers and Tie fighters in ESB---just like it was in EPIV(Ok not for very long)
The difference being that the methods in ESB were more elaborate.
In the same manner ROTJ enhances the methodology of the Death star battle(compared to EPIV).

ESB also has "another Lightsaber battle" and more cantina aliens(in the form of the bounty hunters!)

-The actors have no real drama. Carrie Fisher sleep-walks through the film: and Harrison Ford looks like he is doing a parody of Han Solo--and did someone chop his balls off or what? The character has none of the passion or wit of the other films.

On my 2nd viewing  of ROTJ  back in 83' I distinctly remember the audience laughing at Solo's sarcastic retort  to Luke's "I am taking care of everything" :
"Ohhhh....... great!"

---what about the:
"I am out of it for a little while and everybody suffers/gets delusions of grandeur!"--classic Solo in my book.

In response to being digested by the sarllac for a 1000 years:
"Does not sound so bad"


------ which brings me onto your next point:

But more than that, the character relationships have no tension.

But the dynamics had changed.
This was the difference.
We did not need another film of Solo saving (and talking down or dismisively to) Luke.
Now Luke was an equal (or even a superior) who was saving Solo whilst doing it with some style and therefore bringing the relationship  full circle.

 

Lando and Han are best buds again, for some reason.  

Lando and Han being buds was never a big deal or even noticable--- both characters were going to be separated in the upcoming pivotal battle scenes.
Having them being antagonistic to each other served no purpose from a story telling point of view(unlike ESB).
Although the "come on Han don't let me down" was a clever implied/reference to past frictions(at least for those who had seen ESB)

Luke somehow is in love with his father now, when the last time we saw him he was babbling to himself in a bloody, teary mess "Ben, why didn't you tell me..." Obi Wan just shrugs off Luke's accusation that he lied to him and was using him for his own personal battles.

Again this was the evolution of Luke's character---his emotional restraint(which is interpreted as being subdued) is what allows the contrast to be so striking when he lashes out at Vader----"Never!"

It is the one moment in the entire film where he almost loses his cool and control--im my opinion powerful and dramatic stuff.

 

 Luke shows up just in time for Yoda to announce he is about to die, and then does.

 

 

And in terms of approaching the subject of death--- this is as an accurate and touching a depiction as you get in any of the original 3 films.
Not bad for a kid friendly film(e.g nothing regarding death in the final Harry Potter or LOTR film comes close in terms of subtelty to this scene!).

And it is funny how Kurtz keeps babbling on about how Solo not being killed sucks---whilst forgeting how  Lucas took a risk in "killing" off  the much loved Yoda.

And somehow, Luke was busy for like 4 months and couldn't be bothered to finish his training--which he is conveniently told he no longer needs anyway. And then Sister Leia is introduced and the whole storyline implodes on itself in a hideous wreckage that the film could never save,

It is this kind of 1990's/2000's perception that somehow Leia being Luke's sister is somehow anticlimactic  or wrong----at the time of the theatrical release ---for us kids---the brother/sister link was an unexpected and cool revelation!
None of us saw it coming(Just like Vader's "I am your father").

You have to remember, at the time(1983) ESB had not been seen by audiences for 2-3 years.
In 1983, ESB was not on video/laserdisc.

It is probably half the reason why we did not remember Leia quickly kissing Luke on hoth!

2-3 yrs is a long time(for kids it is effectively a lifetime).

So Yoda's ESB's  "there is another" was pretty much forgotten by 1983!!(ok --personally for me-----maybe the storybook/novel included it--which I did not read or have)

But hopefully you get my point.

 no matter how it was tackled--oh well, just enjoy the fireworks. At least the final quarter with Luke and Vader was well done though. Those scenes are as good as anything in ESB, but they are sadly inconsistent with the rest of film.

 

Well the Vader/Luke confrontation was the climax----everything else that preceded it was the crescendo leading to this climax----and this film builds that crescendo up superbly by intertwining and synchronizing 3 climactic battles(which was practically unheard of in 83' for a fantasy film).
The emperor was the component that helped create that crescendo.

-Ewoks. As was said, the film revolves around midgets in Disneyland bear costumes who do comedy for thirty minutes and then throw some rocks at stormtroopers, all the while taking only a single casualty that gets his own violin solo to tug at our heart strings.

 

These films imply death(in battle) without showing it or in the case of EPIV show death(i.e the rebels being killed in the death star battle) whilst concealing it---hence why the rebels are inside ships so you can't see their bodies being ripped limb from limb when Vader shoots them down in the trenches.
Interesting if you think about it ----the stuff in EPIV(rebels being killed in DS trench battle)  is more grim than anything that happens in ESB.
But the spectacular image of exploding X/Y-wings obscures this grimness----which is why everyone sees EPIV as an uplifting film.
SW is about restraint and converting grim realities(i.e war) into  theatrical spectacle whilst still conveying a strong political message.This is Lucas's true genius!

Regarding  ROTJ.
From a story telling POV, the Ewoks were not inside vehicles or ships.
Seeing them killed en masse on screen with exploding body parts(from Stormtrooper laser blasts or whatnot) is not what SW is about.

 -Bad dialogue. Despite a couple good quips, the characters don't really have the wit or dimension of even the first film

You are right
They don't have the same dimensions.
They have different and in especially Luke's case---broader and much more mature dimensions in ROTJ for the reasons already explained above.
The quality/style of the dialogue reflects this.

 And sometimes they say too much. One moment in the SpenceEdit that added a lot of dimension to Han was removing the line about the Falcon, "I have a funny feeling like I'm not going to see her again." Instead of saying that we simply see Han looking at the Falcon worried, and we know what he is feeling, we get a private moment with him that no one else sees, and it says a lot about who he is.

Ok---that is a nice touch and an interesting alternative but nothing more.

 

 

    -The Emperor. Even though he has become a classic in a sort of cheesy way, if you consider the trajectory of ESB this seems a let down. This is the guy Vader is so scared of? Freaking Gargamel from the Smurfs? All he does is sit there and goad Luke to turn to the darkside, as though the mere suggestion of it is enough to turn him. If I were Luke I'd kill him just to shut him up, which is what I take it Luke was doing when he brought his lightsaber down on his cackling face.

Lucas did the same thing with the Emperor that he did with Yoda.
Yoda was small but powerful.
The Emperor was also relatively small and old------and powerful!
This is another of Lucas's traits----he does not do the obvious thing and make  (some of)his character's conform to physical stereotypes.

The ending moment is good though, but even then if that's how easy it was to kill him I wonder why Vader just didn't push him down the stairs twenty years earlier

 

That is the same as saying why Vader didn't force choke Luke from his tie fighter in the DS trench in EPIV!
Or why Luke is ecstatic after having just blown up the DS with potentially many innocent prisoners still trapped in cell block 1138!!!!
It is like a pointless parlour game.
These films were never meant to be over analysed or taken (too)seriously.
If you do--you can't enjoy them!

 -Bad locations. This one is being a bit nit picky. But Endor is nothing too interesting. It's clearly California, and the few sand-dunes we see on Tatooine are kinda dull too. The Red wood forests offered some interesting photography possibilities but no such luck.

 

What about the speeder bike chase!---which is a great example of how cinematography can be manipulated  to create an otherworldly, exciting  scene(in the pre-CGI era)

 -Bad cinematography. After the beautiful, gorgeous ESB maybe we got spoiled. But films like this that rely on design have to be lit and framed a certain way, and what we got looked like it was intended for a made-for-TV movie. The first Star Wars had that simple style of cinematography too, but it is infinitely more interesting, and with far smaller a budget. Part of the reason I find ROTJ dull is because its so damn boring to look at. If the writing and directing are going to be mediocre, at least give me something visually interesting--this at least the prequels could do.

 

Well watching a faded to pink print ain't gonna help mate!
Back in 83' it looked vibrant and the Sunny Endor provided a subliminal warmth and optimism to a story that was supposed to end with a happy ending.

Finally...there's just something missing. I don't know what. Maybe its just the sum of the total list of complaints above. But there's just a feeling that isn't there. When the Rebel pilots are rushing to their ships in the Yavin hanger, or when the snowspeeders are rushing out and everyone is trying to leave the Hoth base--somehow, when a giant fish walks into a sparkling clean rebel briefing room and a CG hologram of Endor materialises in the centre, it's just not the same. It's not exciting, even if the advanced graphics and exotic design should make it more interesting. But it's not really.

 

Come on man----these scenes are not meant to be exciting-----these are scenes providing exposition, pure and simple.
Exposition scenes in a war film can usually be quite boring .
1977's A Bridge Too Far is a classic case.

At least  Lucas tried to make them cool to look at!

 You add up all these things: story, character, dialogue, mis-en-scene, entire sequences, cinematography, casting and locations...that's pretty much the whole movie. You can't re-edit that, you have to re-write and re-film from the ground up.

 

Well thankfully it wont have to be.It is fine as is!---opinion is a wonderful thing!

-cut boring scene Some scenes, like on Endor, are not nearly quick enough. But taking a boring scene and cutting it fast doesn't solve anything--you just have a fast.

 

I know what you mean although maybe it was meant to provide a slow down of adrenaline for the audience between the speeder bike chase and the final battle.

If I were to do ROTJ, I wouldn't include a single scene from the actual film, except maybe the conversation between Luke and Vader on the Endor base and the "I am a Jedi" moment. I would throw away the entire film and start over. You probably wouldn't see Tatooine, you wouldn't see Endor, and you wouldn't see a Death Star, and none of the character arcs would be the same either. And with that, you wouldn't have Return of the Jedi, you'd have something totally else, a Sequel to Empire Strikes Back.

That is fair enough mate.

I probably can't change your opinion but I hope I have made you understand my opinions as to why ROTJ is fine as is!

Respect.

Danny_Boy

 

 

 

 

All good points.

cthulhu1138 said:

There would be no second Death Star. Instead I would have had an Imperial drydock where warships are being mass produced. It would still be above Endor and the Empire would be mining the moon to death for raw materials.

The whole rescue Han scene would be the same (although less muppety and more Heavy Metal feeling) and would still be sort of light hearted.

Afterward Han and Lando would reconcile their differences aboard the Millennium Falcon after they depart Tatooine

Only when Luke speaks to Yoda it is revealed that Luke only made the rescue plan so convolted was to impress leia with his new found Jedi prowess. Luke realizes he has done wrong after Yoda has died.

When Ben tells Luke about his father he gives him the "certain point of view speech" but asks Luke if he would really have wanted to know.

 

"What would you have done with that information, Luke? Would you have rushed to face him then as you did for your friends?"

 

Ewoks would still be there only because I love the sort of whimsical quality they bring the film what with friendly forest creatures helping to take down a dark sorcerer (Palpatine).

 

And I would have Han and Leia marry before the Alliance briefing scene. Then when Luke shows up he is in shock. This would make the relationship very tense but he finally realizes what he has to do. Be bids Leia goodbye and goes to face his father.

 

just my $0.02

 

This is good.

The Aluminum Falcon said:

Hmm... perhaps the most glaring thing of ROTJ to me about the movie is its lack of grandeur and its wholly inconsistent tone.

I probably would have made Endor a far more exotic planet, maybe filled with unearthly plants... It wouldn't look like Earth's forests.

An aesthetic change I'd make is having Luke have a red lightsaber and Darth Vader have a blue light saber, having retrieved his old lightsaber from the duel on Cloud City. It would be like the "Revenge" poster and also hint at a change in the two characters. Vader going back too good and Luke possibly falling to the Dark Side. It would enhance the reverse symbolism greatly in the end duel... speaking of duels,

Another thing I would have is a double-duel between Obi-Wan and the Emperor and Vader and Luke. As in the early drafts, Obi-Wan would have been resurrected back in the flesh with more power than Vader imagined... equal if not better to the Emperor. The Vader and Luke duel would be lightsabers, as in the movie. On the other hand, the other duel would be using the force... going as far as to shift the environment with the force. It would be somewhat like Scanners...

Speaking of Scanners, I think that ROTJ could have used a better director to fix the wholly inconsistent tone. It would have been nice to have either Croenberg or Spielberg. Croenberg could have provided a much more cerebral ending, while Spielberg could focus on the "family" aspect of the movie, since it's a recurring theme of his movies

I'm sorry my man, but all these ideas are terrible. The irony is that they sound like something that post-1990 George Lucas would approve of. Shifting the environment with the force? Really? Sometimes less is more and The force works much better as a concept when it is something subtle - but that went out the door with ESB.

Harmy said:

STAR WARS was filmed on 35mm film - 35mm film is higher than high definition.

I stand corrected. I guess I just don't like the look of Blu-ray, but I won't open that argument again.

@danny_boy: glad to see that someone shares my sentiments. The fond memories I have are one of the reasons I am essentially indifferent to all this blue-ray nonsense (or is it blu-ray?). Star Wars was not filmed in high definition, I don't remember it in high definition, so I don't care to see it in high definition. But a properly cleaned and restored SD transfer that tries to emulate the theatrical versions as closely as possible seems too much to ask from Lucasfilm I guess.

God help me, but this actually might be good. I want it to be good. I want George to be good again.

Some of these old, classic images are bringing tears to my eyes. No joke. Star Wars was so beautiful and meaningful once.

When I was a kid back in the early 80s we did not have cable TV or a VCR. My father could sometimes bring home one from his school over the Christmas Holidays. I remember the joy of being able to rent one of the OOT. I remember the excitement when my parents told me that Star Wars was going to be on TV (they would let me stay up late to watch the entire movie). I also have fond memories of visiting my best friends house and we could watch his versions, which were taped TV versions.

I still remember, in the the mid 90s, only having a taped, edited-for-time,  TV version of Star Wars. I also didn't have the movies memorized yet, so I would forget how wonderful some of the scenes were.

My first purchase was the 95 THX versions (the "faces" one). I remember the clarity of the sound being what was most noticable. Once I purchased them I watched them all the time for two years straight, which unfortunately does diminish the excitement of the films somewhat.

I only watch the films occasionally now, but am still passionate about getting the OOT the respect and proper preservation they deserve.

zombie84 said:

Yeah,  in a way. It ruined it because Lucas didn't have either the talent or sensibility to go that direction again. He could have, though--ESB could have been the film that took a fun homage to adventure nostalgia and re-directed it into one of the most interesting and touching fantasy dramas in modern movie history. But it wasn't, alas. It did make Lucas take the future films in more heavy-handed "Serious" directions, though, but he couldn't let go of the kiddie-pandering aspect and he didn't know how to make the drama really work. That why, for every film after ESB, you have stupid, child-pandering elements, half-executed "mature" elements that don't mesh well with the aforementioned stuff, and one or two real, honest well-crafted moments of human drama.

I think George has been terrified of losing money ever since ESB ran overbudget. In order to ensure profitability he now wants to make sure he has something for every demographic in his films. Translation: he is willing to compromise to make a buck. When you do that, you are done as an artist.

I think the prequels should never have been made. As Red Letter Media pointed out, they were made just for money and because George "thought it would be neat". George used to tell stories because he felt he had something to say that was important.

Star Wars was made (in part) because THX failed; it told essentially the same story and had the same themes. Lucas felt it just might cause people to take action instead of just depressing them (like THX did).

zombie84 said:

Up until the last thirty-five minutes, yes. But that still leaves with 90 minutes of a pretty fun film. It gets away with it because its silly and lighthearted. After ESB, the third Star Wars film could never go that way.

Which is why ESB, in a weird, round-about way, ruined Star Wars. I believe there was a quote from your book about that.

xhonzi said:

That's like saying there's no drama if you watch the film a second time.

And there's more to drama than when a given character will die.

I perhaps overstated it a bit. But there is certainly less drama.

You know, I'm liking my own idea more and more; a prequel series mainly about Mrs. Skywalker. That would have been ballsy.

zombie84 said:

SpenceEdit did a very nice--and pretty radical--re-cut of Jedi that made me enjoy it for the first time in a decade. It still has some drama and narrative problems, but it was an interesting take on it all. But like the PT I don't believe any amount of editing or SE-ing can fix the film, they can only make it watchable, and there are so many great movies out there, constantly coming out, that it's ultimately a waste of time to devote 2.5 hours just to see something "watchable", knowing beforehand it will never be particularly great.

ROTJ just has too many problems, and they are too firmly integrated to simply be cut around. On their own, one or two of them would be digestible, because the previous two films had flaws too. But together, they are too much, even though I love watching the ensemble together again, I think I would prefer to watch Revenge of the Sith.

-Jabbas palace takes up something like 45 minutes of the film. Too much. I like this sequence, actually, but it goes on for too long.

-Too many puppets and masks throughout the film. I like the uber-exotic style Lucas wanted for the film--but show some restraint. The film goes just a bit too far into Peewees Playhouse territory. When the dance scene comes on, even in 1983, the film stopped dead.

-Recycled plot. This is maybe the most uninteresting thing about the film. More cantina aliens, another Death Star battle. The original script which was set on Coruscant was much more interesting.

-The actors have no real drama. Carrie Fisher sleep-walks through the film and Harrison Ford looks like he is doing a parody of Han Solo--and did someone chop his balls off or what? The character has none of the passion or wit of the other films. But more than that, the character relationships have no tension. Lando and Han are best buds again, for some reason. Luke and Han do nothing but pat each other on the back. Luke somehow is in love with his father now, when the last time we saw him he was babbling to himself in a bloody, teary mess "Ben, why didn't you tell me..." Luke shows up just in time for Yoda to announce he is about to die, and then does. And somehow, Luke was busy for like 4 months to both to finish his training--which he is conveniently told he no longer needs. And then Sister Leia is introduced and the whole storyline implodes on itself--oh well, just enjoy the fireworks. At least the final quarter with Luke and Vader was well done though. Those scenes are as good as anything in ESB, but they are sadly inconsistent with the rest of film.

-Ewoks. As was said, the film revolves around midgets in Disneyland bear costumes who do comedy for thirty minutes and then throw some rocks at stormtroopers, all the while taking only a single casualty that gets his own violin solo to tug at our heart strings.

-Bad dialogue. Despite a couple good quips, the characters don't really have the wit or dimension of even the first film. And sometimes they say too much. One moment that added a lot of dimension to Han was removing the line about the Falcon, "I have a funny feeling like I'm not going to see her again." Instead we see Han looking at the Falcon worried, and we know what he is feeling, we get a private moment with him that no one else sees, and it says a lot about who he is.

-The Emperor. Even though he has become a classic in a sort of cheesy way, if you consider the trajectory of ESB this seems a let down. This is the guy Vader is so scared of? Freaking Gargamel from the Smurfs? All he does is sit there and goad Luke to turn to the darkside, as though the mere suggestion of it is enough to turn him. If I were Luke I'd kill him just to shut him up, which is what I take it Luke was doing when he brought his lightsaber down on his cackling face. The ending moment is good though, but even then if that's how easy it was to kill him I wonder why Vader just didn't push him down the stairs twenty years earlier.

-Bad locations. This one is being a bit nit picky. But Endor is nothing too interesting. It's clearly California, and the few sand-dunes we see on Tatooine are kinda dull too. The Red wood forests offered some interesting photography possibilities but no such luck.

-Bad cinematography. After the beautiful, gorgeous ESB maybe we got spoiled. But films like this that rely on design have to be lit and framed a certain way, and what we got looked like it was intended for a made-for-TV movie. The first Star Wars had that simple style of cinematography too, but it is infinitely more interesting, and with far smaller a budget. Part of the reason I find ROTJ dull is because its so damn boring to look at. If the writing and directing are going to be mediocre, at least give me something visually interesting--this at least the prequels could do.

Finally...there's just something missing. I don't know what. Maybe its just the sum of the total list of complaints above. But there's just a feeling that isn't there. When the Rebel pilots are rushing to their ships in the Yavin hanger, or when the snowspeeders are rushing out and everyone is trying to leave the Hoth base--somehow, when a giant fish walks into a sparkling clean rebel briefing room and a CG hologram of Endor materialises in the centre, it's just not the same. It's not exciting, even if the advanced graphics and exotic design should make it more interesting. But it's not really.

You add up all these things: story, character, dialogue, mis-en-scene, entire sequences, cinematography, casting and locations...that's pretty much the whole movie. You can't re-edit that, you have to re-write and re-film from the ground up. The only thing that's not on that list is music, editing and visual effects, which are all thankfully pretty top notch--the editing is a bit quick, but that's more to do with the script. Some scenes, like on Endor, are not nearly quick enough. But taking a boring scene and cutting it fast doesn't solve anything--you just have a fast-cut boring scene.

If I were to do ROTJ, I wouldn't include a single scene from the actual film, except maybe the conversation between Luke and Vader on the Endor base and the "I am a Jedi" moment. I would throw away the entire film and start over. You probably wouldn't see Tatooine, you wouldn't see Endor, and you wouldn't see a Death Star, and none of the character arcs would be the same either. And with that, you wouldn't have Return of the Jedi, you'd have something totally else, a Sequel to Empire Strikes Back.

Yikes. And yet...you liked Indy IV?

xhonzi said:

4a. I kind of wish these games didn't have fast travel.  I liked in Morrowind how you had to pay a taxi if you wanted to fast travel, and not all taxis went everywhere.

Agreed. One of the reasons I preferred Morrowind to Oblivion.

zombie84 said:

Shakespeare spoiled lots of his endings in the first few lines of his plays. That becomes part of the dramatic suspense--you know the ultimate fate of the story, but what you don't know if how things unfold, who does what, and knowing how things turn out gives you new dramatic mechanisms to use. You can use it to mislead and twist the viewer, knowing she or he expects certain things, or you can use their knowledge to play up the drama. A more banal instance of the latter is in horror films where the audience knows a monster is lurking behind a door but a character doesn't--the suspense becomes not "is there a monster behind the door?" but instead, "no, don't open that door!" and then the audience has to squirm in suspense wondering how the character will survive.

Anyway, most blockbuster movies like Star Wars are predictable. Will Luke beat the bad guys? Yes. Will he save the princess? Yes. Will he survive the ordeal? Very probably. But how does he beat the bad guys, what situations does he have to get himself out of, and how does the princess get rescued? This is the suspense structure of Star Wars. That's also one reason why it was downright shocking when Luke got his ass kicked in ESB and all the good guys lost--that's not supposed to happen!!

This is true of 2011. I don't know if this was as true in 1977. Remember, Star Wars was only the second "blockbuster". 

Two points in regards to the "does predictability negate tension" argument:

First, I feel that if a movie really draws you in you aren't sitting back and analyzing it. You aren't thinking to yourself; "I know what happens next". Very few films do this. I remember one reviewer saying how he had completely forgotten Han Solo because the space battle at the end was so exciting. Result? When the Falcon swoops down out of the sun to save Luke it is an incredible moment (original audiences were cheering in their seats). Should we, as adults, have guessed that Han would come back? Yes. But did we? No. That is what it means to have made an engrossing experience and a great film.

Second; making a prequel is not the same as making a predictable film. In a prequel we know right down to the specific details the fates of the characters (killed by Darth Vader in a duel on the Death Star to allow Luke and his friends to escape). I'm sorry, but you cannot have any drama if these characters are central to the film.

Conclusion - the prequels main character should have been Luke and Leia's mother, since her fate was the only one that was somewhat in doubt (pre-prequel fandom often debated if she really had died or not).

xhonzi said:

theprequelsrule said:

Anchorhead said:

All goofing aside;  Even though I do sometimes touch on it, you guys have no idea how much I hate the idea of the Prequels - as they were released.  The story, execution, casting, Lucas' revision of history, etc. I find it all vulgar.

A prequel story? - absolutely.  Prequel story Lucas released? - absolutely not.

The problem with the prequels - besides all the problems you listed - is that there can be no drama or tension when the outcome is already known to the audience. I mean, we know Obi-wan is not going to die in them right?

 

Bologna.

How likely is it that James Bond is going to die in any of the movies he's in, or Superman, or Luke or Han in the OT? 

That fear of danger or death is mostly irrational in practically all of the movies we watch and enjoy.  The fact that it's irrational and that we know better doesn't mean it can't still be suspenseful.

But we don't know the outcome. We can guess, but we don't know. That small doubt is important.

At any rate the Bond films are poor examples - very light and shallow entertainment based almost entirely on infantile wish fulfillment and the fantasies of the bored middle-class. The books are a little better.