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theprequelsrule

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2-Jun-2011
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21-Aug-2022
Posts
887

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Post
#1501088
Topic
General Star Wars <strong>Random Thoughts</strong> Thread
Time

Wow. I just realized that the opening sequence in TPM is even more stupid than I thought. Obi and Qui don’t even disguise the fact that they are Jedi!!! Yet the Neimodians (I am horrified by the thought that I might have spelt that correctly) need to be told by the droid!! They were expecting ambassadors of some sort.

What a mess. Was there a script re-write that just got jumbled up? Like, were Qui and Obi were supposed to be wearing different clothing and they forgot about that on shooting day?

Post
#1501087
Topic
Cassian Andor - Live-Action Series
Time

A few quick, mostly negative, thoughts:

The trailer makes it look like another over the top melodramatic modern film, complete with stereotypical “epic” music.

Everyone uttering their lines with such seriousness and with “serious face” on.

Modern high contrast black, plus turquoise and orange colour palette. Doesn’t look like Star Wars.

The series looks like it is going to try and answer questions about the beginning of the rebellion that I would rather just leave to my imagination.

I do like the greyish/white Imperial uniforms. They are Imperial Intelligence/Security?

Would like a series that makes some of those who serve the Empire somewhat sympathetic. Like the PC from the old TIE Fighter videogame. You know, going into the Outer Rim and restoring order to systems ruled by gangs and torn by civil war since the Clone Wars.

It just seems like they keep going back to the same well. I really want new Star Wars, if we have to have it, to stop being in the same era as the Rey Saga. Go 500 years in the future, or in the past.

Ah well. Life goes on.

Post
#1495729
Topic
Is everything that’s new automatically bad? Are old things better by default?
Time

Anchorhead said:

Age of the person commenting would make this discussion a lot more honest. People in their 20s and 30s aren’t going to be able to speak to the question in an informed manner. Until you’ve passed through time, you won’t understand it. You just can’t. No amount of reading, studying, researching, interviews, etc is going to change that. Until 40 or 50 years have passed, you can’t even begin to comprehend what the good old days even are or how much your world will have changed.

To me, someone who has been around for many decades, nearly everything is better now. Cars, motorcycles, technology, healthcare/medicine/medical, communications, home entertainment, food safety, air quality, water quality, workplace environments & safety, and many others I’m probably forgetting.

The only thing better 40 years ago was the amount of time I had left in the journey.

And yet, if you believe the surveys over the past 20 years, people are less happy these days. Most of the stuff you mentioned above are simply related to technological improvements; very ironic given the fact that most of us on this website vastly prefer Star Wars from “the good old days” to the new Star Wars stuff.

You still remain an awesome dude Anchorhead.

Post
#1489091
Topic
Did G. Lucas ever intend to portray the Jedi as a flawed institution in the prequels? Or was it added later in the EU?
Time

The unlikability of the Jedi as portrayed in the PT is the culmination of a process that seemed to start with TESB. In SW77 the Jedi are portrayed as a sort of intergalactic police; a cross between The Knights of The Round Table, the Samurai, and The Lensmen. In Empire we get the warrior monk view of the Jedi. I guess Lucas preferred this view…but I prefer his original concept.

Post
#1488001
Topic
The Kenobi <s>Movie</s> Show (Spoilers)
Time

I think Mando works because it seems inspired by the same source material as the OT was, whereas all these other series seem to be “inspired” by the OT. So they just feel like poorly executed copies.

Perhaps exploited is a better term then inspired.

In my humble opinion this series has, all things considered, veered into prequel or even fan film level quality; really bad stuff.

Post
#1485561
Topic
Your ideal Star Wars Sequel Trilogy
Time

Servii said:

I’ve revised my Sequel Trilogy concept.

The Galactic Civil War continued for another 2 decades after Endor, becoming a long, grinding effort to drive back what was left of the Empire. At last, the receding Empire sued for peace with the Republic, with the resulting treaty favoring the Republic and ensuring the Empire could never reclaim its lost territory.

An extremist splinter faction of the Empire, calling themselves the First Order, refused to accept the treaty and launched a surprise attack into Republic space. The First Order was able to devastate the Republic world Mon Calamari before being pushed back by a joint Republic-Empire force. Emperor Roan Fel denounced the First Order as traitors, and aided the Republic in pursuing the First Order into deep space.

Going against the cautionary advice of his uncle Luke, young Jedi Knight Ben Solo joined this military effort, demanding justice for the lives lost on Mon Calamari. Ben quickly rose to the status of war hero as he became a key player in the battles along the edges of the Unknown Regions. The First Order fought with fanaticism, being pushed back planet by planet at a steep cost to both sides.

Then, out of nowhere, the First Order seemingly abandoned the war, and vanished into the Unknown Regions. Ben then spent the next few years working alongside Republic Special Ops officer Poe Dameron to explore and chart the Unknown Regions and track down the First Order fleet. Poe was eventually recalled back to Coruscant, leaving Ben to continue his search alone.

Ben finally discovers where they fled to: the old Imperial prison world of Belsavis. Strangely, the First Order doesn’t fire on his ship when he arrives, instead hailing him and telling him that he is expected at a specific location on the planet. Ben goes along with this, sensing no trap or deception, and arrives at the most heavily locked down place on the planet. A First Order officer greets him as he lands, but Ben notes that something seems off about him, as though he’s not acting of his own free will. The strange officer leads him into the deepest part of the prison, to meet with their new leader. Someone who had been kept in bodily stasis there for several decades, per Emperor Palpatine’s orders.

His name? Jedi Master Jorus C’baoth.

Palpatine considered C’baoth a potential asset due to his unusually powerful battle meditation, and instead of killing him, had him imprisoned and kept in semi-conscious stasis as a form of torture, hoping to break his will and make him serve the Empire. C’baoth never broke, and had remained in stasis all those years after Palpatine’s death. But in his confined state, his mental Force powers grew, until he was able to not just influence people, but outright destroy a person’s identity and enslave their mind to his will. When the First Order fleet arrived over Belsavis, C’baoth sensed their coming, and mentally subjugated their highest ranking members, essentially turning the faction into his own personal army.

Ben spoke with C’baoth for a long time, learning from him about the ancient history of the Jedi and Sith. The two Jedi spoke long on morality and philosophy, and C’baoth showed Ben the remains of dead planets, devastated long ago in the Great Hyperspace War. He led Ben to the same conclusion he had reached: that as long as the Jedi existed, a new Sith would inevitably reemerge, and the resulting war would devastate the galaxy, as had happened many times before. From Ben, C’baoth learns about Luke Skywalker and his new Jedi academy on Yavin IV. C’baoth condemns the new Jedi Order as folly. “It may take 50 years,” C’baoth declared. “It may take 1000 years. It does not matter. This new Order will one day breed a new Sith. It should never have been founded.”

C’baoth then made clear to Ben his plans for the galaxy. He intended to use the First Order to seize control of the Empire, and then sweep across the galaxy, forcefully unifying it under his leadership. The concept of individual freedom would be annihilated. All other Force users would be compelled to sever their own connection to the Force or be put to death. Having found Ben Solo, the heir of Darth Vader, the final piece of C’baoth’s plan was complete, and he could begin his power play.

This is where Episode VII begins. In this rewrite, rather than revering Darth Vader, Ben Solo takes up the mantle of Lord Vader as a calculated move to assert his legitimacy to the Empire. Wearing a mask and suit largely modeled after Vader’s, but modified in several ways to suit his own body, he leads a First Order surprise attack on the Imperial capital world of Bastion. Fighting his way past the Emperor’s elite guards, he hunts down and fatally wounds Emperor Fel before declaring himself publically as Lord Vader and the rightful ruler of the Empire. He then gives an impassioned speech calling for renewed war against the Republic, and the restoration of Imperial authority over the Galactic Core.

The surviving members of the Emperor’s guard are given a choice: kneel or die. Most of them submit to the new Vader, and many stormtroopers on the planet join them, while many others remain loyal to Fel. Civil war breaks out in the streets before the pro-Vader faction secures control of Bastion. Amid the chaos, a small contingent of loyalist stormtroopers break into the Imperial Palace and rescue the badly wounded Emperor. Once it becomes clear that the battle is lost, these troopers attempt to shuttle the dying Emperor off of the planet to safe territory, but their ship is severely damaged as it tries to escape, losing its hyperdrive. The ship is then pursued across space by TIE fighters before being shot down and crash landing on the planet Jakku. Every passenger is killed instantly except for Emperor Fel and a lone stormtrooper. The last trooper tries to pull the Emperor out of the rubble, but to no avail, and right before the Emperor dies, he gives a final command to the stormtrooper: tell the Republic, and Chancellor Organa, what has happened.

The stormtrooper’s name? Finn.

And that’s how I’d begin Episode VII.

You are a treasure here on OT.com Servi! Now, I know you stole these ideas from the best 2 Expanded Universe efforts (the Heir to The Empire trilogy and KOTOR 1 and 2), but that is okay! 😃

Post
#1485560
Topic
What do you think of The Prequel Trilogy? A general discussion.
Time

Servii said:

Had Qui-gon Jinn lived to train Anakin, he would have had a chance.

We never hear Qui-gon say or show that he’s against the no-attachment rule. That’s just fan conjecture. I’m still not convinced that Lucas viewed the Jedi’s rules on attachment as an unhealthy thing.

And this is one of the main reasons the PT is so disliked. Lucas seems to think the way he portrayed the Jedi in the PT would meet with approval from fans!!! But they came off as cold, unemotional assholes. Yet it seems Lucas felt we would admire them!!

Lucas seems to have interpreted Buddhism (clearly the inspiration for the Jedi, especially in the PT) the same way as Nietzsche; but whereas Nietzsche was against it, Lucas seems to be for it. Essentially the Jedi cut themselves off from what Jung would have termed “the shadow self”. Nietzsche and Jung would have said you have to integrate that “darkness” into your being to have a full life. The Jedi actually even go beyond this - I mean forbidding relationships and having children is as anti-life as you can get.

Can we draw a link between George’s real life infertility and how he portrayed the values and norms of the Jedi?

In the OT Luke was his avatar, by the time the PT came around it was Mace Windu. Yikes.

Post
#1483084
Topic
The Kenobi <s>Movie</s> Show (Spoilers)
Time

jedi_bendu said:

I’m not sure if I like force ghosts being able to interact in the physical world at all. They COULD potentially wield lightsabers etc but it is clear they can only appear in moments of need as the Force wills (as Ben says to Luke before he rushes off to confront Vader, “I cannot interfere”) so maybe it’s no problem.

I suppose Qui-gon appearing to confront Vader and let Obi-wan escape would be a nice moment in many respects but it would all depend on execution.

Force Ghosts are another idea that I used to like but were ruined by terrible ideas/writing (Yoda in TLJ).

Would have rather just had Obi-wan continue as a disembodied voice like in SW77.

Honestly, Star Wars is such a corporate product now. I am very close to requesting the mods ban my account here.

Post
#1480774
Topic
<strong>The Book Of Boba Fett</strong> (live action series) - a general discussion thread - * <strong>SPOILERS</strong> *
Time

Anchorhead said:

Abrams has mentioned in interviews that Seven Samurai is one of his favorite films. He’s also mentioned that John Ford and Terrence Malick were big influences.

Well, I stand corrected. I guess he just is sort of a mediocre talent.

Off topic: not a fan of Malick myself anyway. I don’t think I have made it more than 30 minutes into any of his films before losing interest.

Post
#1480761
Topic
On Jedi and Attachment
Time

Servii said:

A point of contention when talking about the prequels is the Jedi Order’s stance on attachment. A particular scene people often come back to is Yoda’s conversation with Anakin in RotS, where Yoda seems to give some questionable advice about grief. This issue was brought back to my attention by a scene at the end of one of the episodes of Book of Boba Fett, where Luke is shown to be carrying on that same anti-attachment philosophy.

There’s been a lot of back-and-forth on this, mainly on the question of whether or not this is a good philosophy, and if it’s not, whether that was intentional on the part of George Lucas.

For example, there’s the fact that the Jedi take on new members when they’re babies, because they don’t want prospective Jedi to develop attachments to their families. To me, this flies in the face of the argument that the Jedi are only against possessive, selfish attachments, since familial bonds don’t really fit into that category. If you accept that even the love between a parent and child is something that’s selfish and dangerous, then that leaves you to conclude that all interpersonal relationships are selfish and dangerous and lead to the Dark Side.

It’s true that Anakin consistently takes things too far in his obsession with keeping people in his life. His reaction to his mother’s death is odd in that he focuses on himself, angrily vowing never to fail again, and when he fears for Padme’s life, the language he uses about her is very possessive and dependent to an unhealthy degree.

Basically, Anakin’s relationships are an extreme negative example of the pitfalls of attachment, rather than what would be the norm for all Jedi. Ideally, Jedi would be coached in how to deal with emotions like grief, and how to come to terms with the loss of loved ones so that it doesn’t cloud their judgment. But instead of doing that, the Jedi try to keep their students from even having loved ones at all, and directly associate the act of mourning with negative emotions like jealousy and greed.

This whole issue is further complicated by the ending of RotJ. Luke refuses to kill Vader because of their relation, and it’s Anakin’s attachment to his son (and thus his desire not to lose him) that pulls him back to the Light and causes him to destroy the Emperor. So we have a scenario where familial attachment saves the day and brings victory for the Light Side, with the main difference being that Anakin acted on his attachment in a self-sacrificial way this time, though it’s not certain whether he knew the act would kill him.

This seems to suggest that Lucas’ intention was for the Jedi to be wrong about attachment. And this interpretation was inadvertently backed up by Luke’s portrayal in the old EU, where he’s fully open to attachment and allows it for his students. But there’s something important to keep in mind. The Jedi’s rules on non-attachment hadn’t been invented yet when the OT was being written, and therefore, the EU writers obviously didn’t incorporate it into their stories. By the time George was writing the prequels, he had changed a great deal as a person (as all people do), and therefore was approaching those films with a different perspective. The Jedi’s stance on attachment seems to be something he came up with in the gap between trilogies. And of course, he’s also spoken against the idea of Luke ever getting married in his version of events.

Keeping that in mind, when we look at Luke’s depiction in BoBF, things start to make more sense. BoBF is a project that Dave Filoni is closely involved with, and Filoni was especially close to George and seems to understand his vision and intentions. So, it’s fairly safe to say that Luke’s portrayal in BoBF aligns pretty closely with Lucas’ vision for a post-RotJ Luke.

TL;DR Luke being pro-attachment in the old EU was just a happy accident caused by George simply not having decided yet that attachment was a bad thing.

Totally out of touch George Lucas actually thought audiences would like the PT Jedi and think they were cool.

But this topic always leads me to wonder about how the Jedi parent children. What history are they taught? How much free-play do they have? What is appropriate behavior towards the opposite sex? What are there values regarding topics like economics, bioethics etc.?

I think it is time for a TV series to explore the Jedi Order itself; follow a 5 year old from recruitment to full knighthood or something.

Post
#1480718
Topic
<strong>The Book Of Boba Fett</strong> (live action series) - a general discussion thread - * <strong>SPOILERS</strong> *
Time

RicOlie_2 said:

ZkinandBonez said:

The philosophy of deconstructionism underminds the very nature of SW, as it does all myths and fairytales. All fiction, even fantasy, should, and usually do have nuance to it, but deconstruction tends to unravel it through overanalysis. I understand the purpose of deconstructionism in the real world and even for fiction about the real world, but I think it’s a poor match for fantasy.

I’m a bit late to the party, but thank you for this. It’s a refreshing viewpoint to see. I think the original spirit of Star Wars is unfortunately less and less possible in our current culture, because of a cultural shift that tends to deconstruct the old archetypes as it creates new ones that are largely incomptable with traditional narratives.

You are correct. The traditional hero is dead (and there are many who are happy about it). Lucas and many of his generation are from a much more traditional cultural background. John Milius especially. Luke Skywalker is a hero not an anti-hero.

Look at the culture of modern Gen-X and Millennial filmmakers compared to the filmmakers they admire. Does JJ Abrams love Kurosawa and old time comics and pulp serials like George did? No way.

Post
#1480525
Topic
<strong>Star Wars Radio Dramas</strong> - a general discussion thread
Time

I just started listening to this. A few thoughts.

I always liked learning more about Luke’s frustrations with life on Tatooine. These scenes are good. The voice acting for Deak, Windy, Biggs et al. is quite good.

The early scenes with Leia…are not good. I drifted off a bit while I listened. The whole dinner scene with Lord Tion was weird. The movies already established Leia as tough and capable, not how she is portrayed here. It doesn’t add anything to her character.

I do love Brook Peters as Vader!

Post
#1480523
Topic
What do you think of The Prequel Trilogy? A general discussion.
Time

It is generally better to “show, don’t tell” in films. Well the PT oftens fails to do either! No only do we not see Anakin and Obi being good friends, we see them somewhat antagonistic towards each other!

It also wastes it’s time introducing things that go nowhere: like the whole Sifo-dyas subplot. It is because there was no
overarching plan. Lucas was making up the films as he went along. There was a very clumsy idea of attachment being what leads to Anakins fall…but it never resonated with much of the audience.

Frustration with the Jedi being somewhat helpless to cure the ills of The Republic would have been a much better angle for explaining his fall.

Post
#1479371
Topic
What do you think of the <strong>Sequel Trilogy</strong>? - a general discussion thread
Time

Servii said:

I can’t say I agree. For a few reasons, but also for one major reason: the sequel trilogy made it so that the OT is actually the least important, least consequential of the three trilogies. The prequels show us Palpatine’s rise to power. The sequels show us how he’s finally defeated at the hands of his granddaughter. You could actually skip the OT altogether, since it’s the least relevant to the overarching saga story. Ultimately, Luke and his vision of a revived Jedi Order just ended up being the husk from which Rey and her new version of the Jedi would emerge. And the Skywalkers, while still being fairly important, are no longer the central figures driving the saga. They’re secondary to the Palpatines.

Both the prequels and sequels make the mistake of trying to reframe the saga around the new protagonist. You can see that in saga promotional material (and even in things like the startup screen for the new Lego game, which has Rey at the top and center of the group of characters, framing her as the main character of the saga). Part of the problem is that both trilogies are essentially pulling the saga in opposite directions, and as a result, the saga becomes disjointed.

I don’t doubt that the writers of the sequels have a lot of reverence for the OT. I do think they tried to have the new movies respect the old. They just fell into the trap of what I can only describe as reckless storytelling, where key plot points aren’t really thought through for what their implications would be. And there are quite a few inconsistencies between the new films and the OT. I’d say about as many as the prequels created.

A great (although thoroughly depressing) point. The OT now matters the least in the whole saga. Christ almighty. 🤦‍♂️

Post
#1478951
Topic
What do you think of The Prequel Trilogy? A general discussion.
Time

BedeHistory731 said:

Acknowledging that these are just stupid space wizard movies and not some “high art auteurship” would make the fandom a much less intense place.

I agree. Even though Lucas clearly did have some philosophical ideas he wanted to explore, Star Wars mainly takes its inspiration from comic books. The Secret History of Star Wars should be required reading for any Star Wars fan.

Post
#1478948
Topic
What do you think of The Prequel Trilogy? A general discussion.
Time

BedeHistory731 said:

theprequelsrule said:

BedeHistory731 said:

I’m just glad Transformers fans have reached a point no Star Wars fan will ever reach: having a sense of humor about the stupid franchise and letting go of the anger to just revel in the inherent goofiness of the whole package. Even the OT is pretty damn goofy.

Transformers was meant to be a totally brainless film from the start, so I never took it seriously. I just enjoyed Bay’s shots of Megan Fox and his excellent ability to frame certain sequences.

Oh it’s more than just the films. Going back to the ‘80s cartoon, there’ve been countless revivals and new continuities throughout the past 35 years in animation, comics, and even some prose novels.

It’s not as brainless as one might think, while OT Star Wars can be more brainless than one may think.

I’m Gen-X, so I grew up in the 80s and was all over Transformers. But have never participated in its fandom online as an adult. Hence the much healthier relationship I have with it then Star Wars. 😃

Post
#1478945
Topic
What do you think of The Prequel Trilogy? A general discussion.
Time

BedeHistory731 said:

I’m just glad Transformers fans have reached a point no Star Wars fan will ever reach: having a sense of humor about the stupid franchise and letting go of the anger to just revel in the inherent goofiness of the whole package. Even the OT is pretty damn goofy.

Transformers was meant to be a totally brainless film from the start, so I never took it seriously. I just enjoyed Bay’s shots of Megan Fox and his excellent ability to frame certain sequences.