Maybe find someone to animate all this?
And yes, RA 79 feels like a VERY last minute rush job. Which wasn’t redone in the Special Edition!
Mass Effect was my new Star Wars. It even had it’s own version of The Force with biotics. Now it sucks too, but it was great for 2.9 games
I liked The Expanse quite a bit - but maybe that is more like the new Babylon 5.
What I really want…is a a revival of Space: Above and Beyond.
Denis’s movies are always technically very proficient - but very cold. A lot like George Lucas without a good supporting production team!
“You should have bargained Jabba. It’s the last mistake you’ll ever make.”
I enjoy the expression on Luke’s face and satisfaction in his voice when he realizes that Jabba has pushed him into a position where he will be forced to eliminate him and his henchmen.
When forced to kill a Jedi has few, if any, regrets or remorse. Obi-wan couldn’t give two shits after cutting down the guys threatening Luke in Mos Eisley.
This is why Jedi were once (back in the 90s) cool characters.
Make Star Wars Great Again.
This is a huge tangent but yes the problem is they’re old and drunk and don’t have good memories outside of Star Trek trivia. Even if they did remember why bother bringing it up? Does a deleted scene even count? They don’t care any neither does anyone else. Which goes for most SW fans these days.
Bringing is neatly back on topic, why should I care? I’m never going to watch a new SW project unless it’s genuinely ‘good’, or to put it another way gets universal acclaim.
Deleted scenes don’t count. Aliens require a Queen to lay eggs. Period.
My original point with the RLM tangent was that the criticisms of the prequels were mostly correct. No one has really disagreed with that, just disliked the presentation.
I mean, I dislike the presentation, but the critiques are exceptionally valid. The whole bit with “the urban market” is something I’ve brought up when talking about tokenism/Hollywood racism.
But it does raise a point—if the reviews hadn’t been presented like they were, would they have been noticed to the same level?
Probably not. But then, any 90 minute review would have been novel at the time, because back then these long-form reviews were quite rare. In some interview I read ages ago, Mike Stoklasa said he initially started doing his first review (which was a Star Trek review) using his normal voice, but he decided it sounded too boring, so he invented this Plinkett character (who was based on the earlier Rich Evans version to some extent).
RLM’s review was also simply the most insightful. You have to remember what was available back then - you basically had low-effort, superficial stuff like Nostalgia Critic and some guy named “Confused Matthew”. The average Phantom Menace review was basically just somebody ranting about how Jar Jar sucks for 10 minutes.
I liked “Confused Matthew”. And I would only call it low effort because of the explosion of technical production and editing that followed TPR (The Plinkett Review). At the time it seemed just fine.
Both Star Wars and RLM have run their course for me.
I second the oohteedee edits. They’re the best-looking versions of the movies.
What are these edits? How do they differ from standard d77?
Nice to see you posting again!
I still want my damn lightsaber back from Atris.
I hope there is a mod where you can do just that.
If you are in your 40s and still take Star Wars seriously you should seek out a therapist. Immediately.
Star Wars should break into Kathleen Kennedy’s office in the middle of the night and take a huge shit on her desk.
I know this essay is very popular here, but I’ve always disagreed with it.
In practice, people often define science fiction as “you know, lasers and robots and space ships and shit”. Obviously, Star Wars meets this criteria. But a more useful criteria for science fiction probably entails stories that are in some way actually about how some hypothetical future technology or development affects people and society. Stuff like Contact or Blade Runner are obviously sci-fi under that definition, as are movies like the Matrix or Terminator. These movies are actually about how some new technology or future condition affects people and society. This definition is not a binary thing either - there’s obviously a “sci-fi spectrum” here, and a movie can be both sci-fi and other genres simultaneously.
Some might prefer an even stricter definition or criteria for sci-fi. Under this stricter definition, a movie’s plot or themes should not be reducible to non-science-fiction themes, i.e. the movie can’t simply use sci-fi elements as window dressing to tell a conventional, non-sci-fi story. For example, arguably something like Terminator 2 has prominent themes about motherhood, fatherhood, and determinism/fate. The movie doesn’t necessarily need science fiction elements to explore those themes. It could be reimagined as a story with the same themes and overall plot structure but with the sci-fi elements removed. For example, it could just be about a delinquent teenage orphan on the run from something while an unconventional father-like figure protects him. You don’t necessarily need killer time-traveling cyborgs to explore those themes - but they do make the movie a lot cooler. On the other hand, a movie like 2001 - A Space Odyssey is irreducibly science fiction, because the sci-fi elements are absolutely required in order to explore the themes the movie wants to explore, like space exploration, AI and the long-term evolution of the human race. But this stricter definition is pretty impractical, because few people use the term “sci-fi” in such a narrow way.
Anyway, I think Star Wars - at least A New Hope - is actually science fiction using either of these definitions (even the stricter one!). Most people are likely to describe A New Hope as a “hero’s journey” or a fantasy about a young farmboy who meets a space wizard and goes on a fantastical adventure. But the main plot is also very much about a new technological super-weapon, and how it affects society as a political game-changer, making an absolute technocratic dictatorship possible and stable over the long-term without any accompanying bureaucracy or democracy. There are also themes of “man vs. machine”, spirituality vs. technology, etc., all of which are themes that are not reducible to non-science-fiction themes.
Moreover, the “Star Wars is fantasy not sci-fi” argument is often used defensively in the context of discussions about obvious absurdities, like Han Solo walking around inside an asteroid, exposed to the vacuum of space, with no protective suit and a magical source of artificial gravity. Fans (and Irvin Kershner himself) often hand-wave away such criticisms with arguments about the artistic merits of Star Wars viewed as surrealism or expressionism. Star Wars certainly has elements of surrealism and expressionism, but the films also anchor many sequences around objective rules based on technological systems - e.g. we can’t penetrate the deflector shield so we need to blow up the shield generator.
Finally, the boundaries between sci-fi and surrealism or fantasy often strike me as arbitrary, based mostly on the experiences and expectations of the average person living today. If I complain that Han Solo shouldn’t survive in the vacuum of space, somebody might respond by telling me “Star Wars isn’t supposed to be science fiction.” J.J. Abrams said exactly that (“Star Wars is not a science lesson”) when fans complained that the bright red Starkiller beam in Force Awakens shouldn’t be visible in the sky.
But why exactly do we accept this? Probably because the average person doesn’t have the experience or mental model to develop expectations about how outer space works, so they’re okay if the movie eschews all that if it increases the drama or spectacle. Okay, well, what if there was a scene where Han Solo dives into a river, and then just starts walking around underwater for hours, with no breathing apparatus? The audience would be like “WTF? How is he not dying from lack of oxygen?” It’s doubtful anybody would respond with “Who cares! Star Wars is fantasy, not sci-fi!”. Because of course, the average person in the 21st century has the experience and mental model to develop certain expectations about water, and how humans shouldn’t be able to breathe underwater. Even pure fantasy, like Lord of the Rings, generally adheres to the audiences’ base-line expectations about physics on a human scale. Pure surrealism or expressionism, on the other hand, doesn’t even require this minimal adherence to some baseline set of expectations rooted in the common shared experiences of being human. So I’ve always felt that labeling Star Wars as surrealism, expressionism, or pure fantasy - often within the context of some defense against criticisms about physical inaccuracies - to be pretty arbitrary, based mostly on current, average experience of reality, which changes each decade as humanity collectively experiences new things and learns more about the Universe.
I don’t expect Star Wars to ever be hard sci-fi, nor do I want it to. It relies extensively on fantasy conceits like the Force, FTL travel, and space dog-fights. But that doesn’t mean we should pretend it’s entirely expressionist, as if objective, physical rules should always be a secondary concern.
I thought it was long ago agreed that Star Wars is an example of the niche genre known as Space Opera. Space Opera is it’s own thing; neither Sci-fi nor mythic fantasy, but with elements of both. The “tech” in Space Opera is the “magic” in fantasy - no need to know whence it came or how it works.
Star Wars adds in it’s own version of magic (The Force) along with the tech and the same thing applies - it doesn’t matter how it works or why it exists.
Star Wars is mostly influenced by these:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lensman_series
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dune_(franchise)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_Gordon
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fighting_Devil_Dogs
For good mental health and harmony, I should quit Star Wars, but I don’t think I can.
I’m right there with you brother.
Well sport, I quit Star Wars back in 2018 (I just grew out of it, no other real reason), and only stayed around here because I was too lazy to make a new account on a different forum. 😛
Nice! I am in the same boat really. Not much interested in Star Wars content other than the KOTOR 2 video game which I play once every year. I suppose I am still interested in dissecting the past content still.
If I had to be earnest, I think Andor is the best Star Wars media probably ever produced? It’s perfect. So I will always be grateful for that.
But I think weirdly enough, Andor more than anything is what has allowed me to feel at peace with Star Wars? Like, I can put it to bed now. When I joke about ending it all, it’s coming from a real place of love and satisfaction. Not trying to be cynical.
The middling/bad nature of the prequels - and to a lesser extent, the sequels - has always left Star Wars an unresolved question in my mind. There’s potential here, I’d always imagined it, and I’ve always been looking for it - in books, in comics, in cartoons, the shows. I developed so much understanding of the universe along the way, to speculate about it like it was real, find interesting conceits to explore. I’ve never been fully satisfied with any one thing, and it only got harder as I got older, as I branched out and became a fan of other things.
But I always saved a place in my heart for Star Wars. So when the perfect cross section of where I am now as a film fan, and all this “language” I’ve honed over the years as a nerd came out - it was, idk, meaningful to me. I could “grow up” now, move on. Gilroy took every nerdy way I’ve thought about the Star Wars galaxy and put it into something I could genuinely enjoy as an adult. So removed from the canon being built on the other side of the franchise, so singular in its refraction of the OT story I already loved. And it was a Gilroy project through and through! As a big Michael Clayton-head, I couldn’t be more pleased.
I only came to this realization after not really feeling the subsequent releases (Mando, Ahsoka, Acolyte), but also not really feeling any kind of desire to “fix” them like I would. I wasn’t even disappointed. They just weren’t for me.
So Andor really changed the franchise for me, from an investment in its world and timeline, to a complete series of films I adore, a TV show that I love. I’ve gotten what I’ve always wanted from this whole thing and those movies aren’t going anywhere. And I think ultimately, even if it’s not Andor for you, that’s the end of the line for everyone at some point.
This was a nicely written piece. Thinking about things from this perspective I would say that KOTOR 2 is for me what Andor is for you. If the OT ultimately was about Luke’s path to becoming a Jedi then KOTOR 2 was (if you follow the “lightside”) a re-affirmation of the WORTH of the Jedi way.
For good mental health and harmony, I should quit Star Wars, but I don’t think I can.
I’m right there with you brother.
I am curious if there will ever come a point where the entire franchise gets a reboot. I couldn’t imagine such a thing a decade ago, but now…?
Is Star Wars still considered “too big” to do this? Too successful? Or is it a case of waiting for Lucas to die before such an idea could be entertained, morbid as that thought is?
Just stopping, and ending Star Wars forever
Please.
Rogue One and Solo are in-universe holothrillers produced under the New Republic as celebrations of Rebel heroes. While the broadstrokes events are true, creative license was taken with the details for dramatic effect.
I feel that way regarding virtually every SW film and TV show.
Indeed. This idea goes back to the earliest conception of the franchise - all are tales told by C-3PO and R2-D2 (or recovered from their memory units).
The Star Wars: From the Adventures of Luke Skywalker.
I like the concept of him from Star Wars 1977. He was a peer of Obi-wans (quite close in age) who was murdered by Obi-wans young pupil Darth Vader. A great starfighter and cunning warrior; Obi-wan obviously finds nothing wrong with praising martial prowess. This is because The Jedi were basically special forces rather than warrior monks. They probably banged a lot of chicks.
I just want to pop in say hi and express my support for Spartacus standing up to this. I want you all to know that I’d love to come back and post here regularly, but I also can’t bring myself to play along with the whole sock account charade, which has become harder and harder to ignore as more people have left the site, many of them probably for the same reason I did.
As for EU unpopular opinions, I don’t mind the idea of Palpatine preparing for the Vong invasion, in theory. Of course, if he really did know it was coming, he definitely wouldn’t have kept it a secret. He’d have used the Vong as a convenient external threat to justify more executive powers and military buildup. But I don’t agree with the idea that it paints Palpatine as a good guy. It just makes him a rival of another villain, but no less a villain himself.
I do, however, dislike how much Thrawn was made out to actually be a good guy. As the EU went on, Timothy Zahn seemed to whitewash his actions more and more, like making it so that he destroyed Outbound Flight in self defense rather than just destroying it on Palpatine’s orders. I don’t mind the idea that he was really playing some sort of galactic long game the whole time, but at the end of the day, he’s still a ruthless dictator. I don’t know. It’s a tricky balance to strike. I like the Empire of the Hand as a concept, but they almost seem too moral.
Yeah, Zahn’s work a after Vision of The Future was very “mid”, as the kids say.
Also - nice to have you back!
A problem I have with the prequel is the villains are more compelling and interesting than the heroes. There is no clear protagonist, despite us constantly being told it’s supposed to be Anakin. This was a mistake, the Jedi are written as aloof and without emotion and Anakin is written as the opposite as very open with them and un-jedi like outbursts, sort of Emo. The dialog is stilted and stiff and nobody talks naturally. Everyone is directed in a listless manner and is completely asleep delivering their lines except Ian in Episode III, in Episode II even he was boring in his delivery.
I really wish Lucas hadn’t filmed them against green screen as separate elements you need chemistry between actors and for them to be comfortable in what they are doing.
Why were the actors in the original able to convincingly act to puppets and bluescreen, why was the dialog in most places much more natural. What happened. Lucas can’t have slipped that much in 16 years between Return of the Jedi and Phantom Menace. Some essential thing was missing and I can’t quite quantify what.
Lucas was much more interested in the possibilities that CGI offered him to realize his vision than the acting. The guy is, quite frankly, not all there. The SFX tech of 1982 was perfectly capable of creating anything he needed. The Battle of Endor is still the best space battle we have ever seen in Star Wars. Mostly CGI was used to make things “more dense” - which was not to the benefit of the PT.
He had to be convinced to get acting coaches for Portman and Christiansen in ROTS.
Honestly…why do I keep coming back to Star Wars (and this site! LoL)? It seems like more of an unhealthy addiction than a real interest of mine at this point!
Same. I’m only following Andor, and it took me a tremendous lot of convincing from the folks who aren’t mindless fanboys easily suckered by lightsabers and fanservice for me to take that leap of faith; my interest in everything else Disney’s put out is in the negative numbers.
And I will say what others are afraid to say: one of the reasons I like the OT is because the protagonist is a man. I like the hero’s journey idea. It is inspiring and more men need stuff like that in their lives. It is okay for something to be about and for (primarily) men and their experiences. The opposite is, of course, also true.
And yes…I do think the current zeitgeist in Disney is somewhat anti-male. I know this puts me in a place where I rub shoulders with unpleasant youtube grifters - but even a stopped clock is right twice a day.
Honestly…why do I keep coming back to Star Wars (and this site! LoL)? It seems like more of an unhealthy addiction than a real interest of mine at this point! Since ROS I have only watched one of the series (Kenobi) to its completion and that was the same way you stop and watch an accident on the side of the road. Or a particularly large piece of dog shit while taking a walk.
Anyway…Luke gets 3 movies and Rey now gets 4 (and counting). Star Wars: From the Adventures of Rey Palpawalker.
If there are any Star Wars fans that approve of this…well, what kind of Star Wars fan are you?
See what I did there?
Shit, you think people are going to take your posts or advice on here seriously after you telling a black member on here that:
First, that’s not a black person, that’s just you with another of your sock accounts, and stop pretending otherwise, because the whole forum has realized that it’s just you talking with yourself at this point.
Exactly. This is ridiculous that the moderators have allowed this sock organization to keep circulating.
Increasingly I have begun to think that everything except the preservation and fan-edit sections of the site should be deleted. This place is mostly a graveyard…especially if all the sock accounts get removed.
I disagree. In my opinion, a lot of people try not to write on the other sections of the forum precisely because they don’t want to be bullied by the guy and surrounded by all the sock accounts. For example, I’m in contact with one of the members of the forum (whose name I’ll not reveal), who openly confessed to me that he doesn’t write here anymore because he doesn’t want to be involved with the guy. Once you remove the guy from the equation, a lot of people might want to return to write on the other sections of the forum too.
That’s exactly what would probably happen, once the hijack has finally been stopped. It’d be nice if the moderators were not so absentee on the boards.
They probably don’t give a damn about Star Wars anymore either. Who can blame them? Anyway, we have 4K77,80, and 83 now. When this site was founded they didn’t exist. Anyone who cares enough about the OOT probably has them. So why care about an official release anymore? For Lucas and Disney to make more money?
Shit, you think people are going to take your posts or advice on here seriously after you telling a black member on here that:
First, that’s not a black person, that’s just you with another of your sock accounts, and stop pretending otherwise, because the whole forum has realized that it’s just you talking with yourself at this point.
Exactly. This is ridiculous that the moderators have allowed this sock organization to keep circulating.
Increasingly I have begun to think that everything except the preservation and fan-edit sections of the site should be deleted. This place is mostly a graveyard…especially if all the sock accounts get removed.
I disagree. In my opinion, a lot of people try not to write on the other sections of the forum precisely because they don’t want to be bullied by the guy and surrounded by all the sock accounts. For example, I’m in contact with one of the members of the forum (whose name I’ll not reveal), who openly confessed to me that he doesn’t write here anymore because he doesn’t want to be involved with the guy. Once you remove the guy from the equation, a lot of people might want to return to write on the other sections of the forum too.
Maybe. But I think Star Wars is mostly played out. Look at all the members who don’t post about Ashoka or Acolyte (like myself!). The people who really care about the OT don’t seem to care much about the current stuff and you can only rag on Lucas for so long for not releasing the OOT.