spoRv

poita said:

1) Agree

But perhaps it should also cover where there has been a digital release, but it has been botched.

I think it could be safely included in 2) Fan Restoration

CatBus said:

Even assuming we allow for great flexibility, these terms are hierarchical.  Some are subsets of others.  Some are distinct.  Some are partially overlapping and partially distinct.

You are right, technically speaking, ALL these definitions could be defined as fan restoration of some sort, but I think we need to separate them in branches, for several reasons... well, as my first language is not english, I'll use the definitions from wiktionary.com.

Fan Preservation can be used to describe ANY attempt to preserve a particular version of a film for posterity.  It can include unaltered preservations of a single rare release, it can be a remux of different releases, it can be a reconstruction of an original version from multiple sources... it could even be a reconstruction of a particular modified-for-television broadcast version of a film.  It could just be transferring an old VHS bootleg to DVD.

1) Preservation: The act of preserving; care to preserve; act of keeping from destruction, decay or any ill.

to me, it does not involve ANY restoration at all! I mean, if a house should be destroyed because an highway will pass there, and I make a petition to safe it because has historical value, and then the highway will be made 1 mile away from it, I preserved the house, but I did not restored anything...

video wise, if I capture a movie that is ony on laserdisc but never released on digital format, then I put it on DVD or BD "as is" (or with a simple IVTC), touching only the audio from 44.1KHz to 48KHz, I think this could simply be called a preservation, and not a restoration. If I touch video or audio, like upscaling, degraining, remixing audio etc. this qualify as a restoration, or restored preservation - maybe in this case we could fit in a overlapping definition.

Fan Restoration is a subset of the above.  It's an attempt to restore a particular version of the film that is otherwise unavailable, in a way that involves a lot of processing to bring out qualities that weren't present in the unaltered source material.  Project Blu would qualify as a single-source fan restoration, the Despecialized Editions would be multi-source.

2) Restoration: the process of bringing an object back to its original state; the process of restoring something.

I make an example using my last project: "The Thing" BD has DNR in comparison to HD-DVD (that was not on the original print), and, to me and many other forum members, has wrong color grading. If we presume the LD has the correct color grading (or, at least, most correct), and I use the LD as color reference, restoring the movie using the HD-DVD video (with less DNR) and LD for colors, counts as a restoration. The fact that I used several soundtracks from LD, DVD, BD doesn't mean this is a "mere" remux - to me, it IS a restoration.

Fan Reconstruction is a subset of the above, and it's the multi-source version.

3) Reconstruction: A thing that has been reconstructed or restored to an earlier state.

following this definition, could Harmy's work be defined as reconstruction or restoration? Maybe we should use a new definition, "Recreation".

Fan Extended Edition is a subset of Fan Edits, where the primary goal of the project is to add material to the film.

Here we basically agree. I could also point that there is NO restoration at all in the main movie, while the extended scenes could be restored to be closest to the main feature.

Fan Remux is a subset of Fan Edits that overlaps Fan Preservation (if the goal of the remux is to preserve a particular version), but can also include making unique new versions.

5) Multiplex: (computing) To combine several signals into a single signal

If I choose the best video, audio and subtitles from several sources, I don't preserve any sources at all, just do a new version.

Fan Edit overlaps Fan Preservations and Fan Restorations, and is a superset of Fan Reconstructions, Fan Extended Editions, and Fan Remuxes.  Basically it only means the fan did some editing to the sources.  It does not imply what the purpose of that editing was.  It could have been to make a home video release like the theatrical version, it could be made to shorten or lengthen the film, it may have been only audio editing, but it wasn't a simple VHS-to-DVD transfer, for example.

We basically agree here, too.

Workprints and Bootlegs should be separated out.  Workprints are film elements from the official process that produced the film that didn't make it into the film itself, while bootlegs are unofficial audio or video recordings of a particular "performance" of the film.  In-theatre tape recordings, VHS tapes of TV broadcasts, etc.

I agree with you 100% on this definition; I think it's better to abandon the Bootleg definition as, streactly speaking, all our fan edits, preservations etc. ARE bootlegs...

CatBus, we could agree or disagree, but I like the fact that a discussion is started!

I'm into this forum for two years now, and still not got a complete, final, ultimate definitions of what Restorations, Preservations, Fan Edits (and so on) are, according to everyone... I tried to write down them here, based on what I have understood in this time, what are my personal thought, what other members think about them, and also on the FAQ of this forum and fanedits.com.

Obviously someone will agree with some or all definition completely, someone will agree partially, and others will strongly disagree... and it's the meaning of this thread: trying to find a common thought about WHAT precisely we are doing here!

These definitions will be useful to set guidelines for all of us, and will help future fans who would like to start their own projects. Let's decide the definitions together first, then we would set rules to follow for each category.

INITIAL DEFINITIONS

1) Fan Preservation

A fan-made release of a film version that has never had a full retail BROAD digital release*. These are sourced from analog formats such as VHS, laserdisc, or film, but sometimes they can be from captured TV broadcasts (both analog and digital) or NICHE digital releases**.

2) Fan Restoration

Attempts to restore a film version, that had a full retail DIGITAL release, to be as closest as possible to its original theatrical release, using best sources available. This may include video taken from commercial releases, or TV broadcasts, and may consist of one or several of the following works: color regrading, frames/scenes replacing, aspect ratio correction, removal of scratches, tears, spots and dust, sounds/dialogs replacing/correction, entire soundtracks replacing etc. It could include restoring director's cut where the BROAD digital release* will include only the extended edition.

3) Fan Reconstruction

The most meticolous kind of restoration; it attempts to restore a film version closest to its original theatrical release, using various video sources, applying every kind of restoration work, and more, to obtain the best restoration ever possible. For example, where a restoration will use a one-for-all technique for the whole movie, the reconstruction will use the best technique for each scene or eventually single frames.

4) Fan Extended Edition

It adds additional scenes where they fitting, to have a new extended edition not available on BROAD digital release*. If the additions require a few movie alterations for plot reasons, it still counts as an extended edition, for example if an alternate ending replaces the original one.

5) Fan reMux

A multiplexing of video and/or audio and/or subtitles taken from analog and/or digital releases, to obtain the best version possible; this involves NO restoration at all, just a selection of the best/correct/alternative audio/video/subtitles streams from different sources.

6) Fan Edit

A fan-made alternative version for an existing film, made by the insertion, deletion or re-ordering of scenes within the film, or taken from different films, or a fusion of different films/TV episodes in a coherent version.

7) Workprints and Bootlegs

Low quality cams/telecines/VHS captures of alternative workprint versions or lost theatrical cuts.

 * BROAD digital release = DVD, BD, digital download
** NICHE digital release = VCD, HD-DVD, D-VHS, UMD...

to make things cleaner, just write AGREE for each or all definitions you think are right; if you partially agree, just quote the definition(s) (or part of) you think are not right, and write down your correction; if you completely disagree, just write the whole definition(s) as you think are right.

Also, if other definitions exists, please post them here too.

benduwan said:

no news....i think it´s dead...

If you are talking about me, I'm (still) alive... (^^,)

If you are talking about this project, well, it's "on standby" mode, undefinitely, as I'm involved into other projects. But I have not cancelled it, so remain subscribed to this thread, if I'll make any updates I'll post them here.

Flexicon9 said:

Andrea, could you repost your Escape From New York BD vs. HDNet comparison shots... they seem to be gone now for some reason.  Thanks.

If you refers to the first screenshot comparison I did (HDNET Vs UK BD) I deleted it, sorry... the latest ones I did are HDNET Vs US BD, and the link is this: http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison.php?id=39478

Escape from New York: I deleted the previous screenshot comparison; now I compared HDTV HDNET Vs US Blu-ray

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison.php?id=39478

differences are not dramatic like previous HDNET Vs UK Blu-ray, but still present. Also, it seems that BD is a bit horizontally stretched.

Interisting note: each version has some more details on one side vs opposite one... so I thought to do a fast test (really rough, just to have an idea) - click each image to see HD versions:

HDNET:

US BD:

US BD with HDNET colors:

US BD with HDNET colors (first pixels on the left) + HDNET:

got it? (^^,) - I'm waiting your comment about this brand new technique! (I must find out some strange, exotic and ugly name for it...)

***   ***   ***

Aliens: http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison.php?id=37139

why bother to use BD and change its colors, if it has crushed blacks and clipped whites? If I'll do a [spoRv] project, I'll use the HDTV video - as dvdmike, I prefer it to BD! And it will be with LD audio soundtrack(s), of course...

Spaced Ranger said:

...but kept getting an error message "Evaluate: System exception - Access Violation ([ScriptClip], line 5)". What did you do to solve this?

avoid to use SetMTMode: it should work. By the way, on "The Thing" I used only my ColourMatch and ColourMatchYUV scripts; on "The Matrix", almost all movie will be done with ColourMatch, and only the scenes with some artifacts will use another color matching script - to be tested, don't know if I will use ColourLikeFBF or a very experimental script, ColourMatchRGB... the latter is very promising, but stops working if the scene is too long... keep an eye on "The Matrix" thread for future info.

Video Collector said:

Brightening AvP:R would also be welcome, but I don't think using the spoRv process is the best way to go about it.

the process I used for the thing is a simple color re-grading, using the script I mentioned in the answer before - spoRv=special preserved or Restored version (the best acronym I found out, open to change it but the meaning should be the same). I used this acronym not only for its meaning, but also because it means Sparrow in norwegian (what a coincidence "The Thing" was the first [spoRv] project...) and I like the simple logo I made only with characters; sporv is a five letters, one syllable word, like sport, easy to remember; and this is only the beginning of a bigger project... when it will be ready, I'll write more in a proper thread.

Don't know if I could post a direct link, but search for "Dr Sapirstein" and you'll find it in the first positions...

zeropc said:

always remember: blu-ray is capable to hold a higher color spectrum then dvd or ld was able to do. so using a ld or even a dvd for reference might result in a wrong color display altogether.

The BD uses 8 bit for each color, and rec.709 as color space; chroma ranges from 16 to 240, hence we have 225 possible values for each RGB; total colors that could be displayed are 225x225x225= 11.390.625; DVD uses rec.601 with different coefficients, but the total colors remains the same; LD uses bt.601, but as analog format has not a finished amount of color that could be displayed, so theoretically LD has infinite number of colors; all these colorspaces cover about 35% of the CIE gamut.

So, could you explain better your assertion?

i also not recommend to do color correction purely by eye, unless you

- have approved monitors for color correction, which are also properly calibrated

- have high knowledge of color correction using scopes

- know what the original intended look of the movie was

point 3 will be very had to fill, since none of has ever spoken to the directors to the extend a colorist would've or has access to the notes done during the color correction process.

Totally agree.

the final results may look good, but also may not represent what was originally intended. a good example were i have mixed feelings about the result is andrea's the thing color correction. while it looks pretty good, i don't think it's the right look. john carpenter usually goes to a more natural look of colors. especially the skin tones in andrea's the thing look way to desaturated. which i think is a result of using a laserdisc color. we wont know for sure, unless mr. carpenter would watch that version and tells us if it's right or totally wrong.

My attempt is just a compromise; and I agree that sometimes the skin tones are too desaturated; the fact that saturation is quite low could be due to different factors:

• a direct comparison with the HD-DVD/BD obviously fools our eyes to believe the spoRv/LD colors are dull
• I captured the LD with default settings (my fault!) - changing the brightness, contrast and color before capturing, could avoid (all or in part) the problem... but, as I have not the only PAL LD with color bars, I could not optimize the capture values...
• LD format usually has colors set at 75% of full saturation, to avoid color bleeding because is a composite format - I should have set the saturation to 1.33 to be "right"; I tested this, and in some scenes snow turned pinkish, while the faces looks right... maybe I should set the saturation at 1.33 only for not-snow scenes. I admit I have thought to do it, but I decided to not touch saturation - and probably was a wrong decision!
• the very PAL LD edition I used has low saturation

Still, I like most white snow and black and white husky dog... (^^,)

Only John Carpenter will tell us which version he thinks is right, but probably we'll never know...

Flexicon9 said:

Is Escape From New York really not right?  It looks really good on my plasma... I mean other than having to turn up the brightness on my display because they technically mastered it too dark.  The information is in the frame but you have to compensate for the transfer being so dark to begin with.  Other than that, I don't have a problem with it.

Take a look at this screenshot comparison...

Sorry, I didn't want to offend you; I only pointed out that the laserdisc is *a* reference, and NOT *the* reference; I mean, as I wrote in my post, that is better (IMHO) to stick with a reference (even if not for sure the right one) instead of making a color correction "by eye", that's it. If it seemed I was rough, I apologize, it was not my intention, I repeat, I like your threads and I think you are a smart person, so sorry again.

About laserdisc as color reference, I agree with you, it's not the best source that could be used as reference for an HD project, but at least it's better than VHS, and a PAL 1.85 laserdisc still got around 416x160/200 pixel chroma resolution Vs 208x360 pixel chroma resolution of a PAL 1.85:1 letterbox DVD, so it has almost the same chroma resolution.

At the end, the whole discussion could be summed up in: it will be a wise choice to use the 1080ì HDTV as luma reference, and LD as chroma reference, to make a restoration project of the theatrical cut of Robin Hood, or it's better to use the BD, cut out the scenes not belonging to the theatical cut, and use the HDTV to restore the missing scenes not found on the extended cut BD? And, if the latter is the best choice, how to restore color grading in the HDTV to match the BD one?

I could agree that your manual correction is good enough, as the HDTV image here is a bit cold, and I agree about contrast and brightness levels; but it could not qualify as restoration, but only as fanedit... don't get me wrong, I admire your efforts here and in several other threads (like Robocop)... but it seems that a *proper* fan restoration (as proper could be a fan restoration, by the way...) should take a reference when trying to do a color correction.

I mean, maybe the laserdisc colors are not the same of what we all saw in the theaters, but at least it could be called *a* reference; do you agree? I'm curious myself to see if, using HDTV luma and LD chroma results will be similar to what you have done.

I was tempted myself to use a color grading for "The Matrix" not entirely based on DVD as reference, but I decided to stick with DVD as color reference; now the BD has colors really really close to DVD and, even if I personally prefer my previous settings in some instances, I think the whole color grading should be mantained as closely to the reference as possible (even if I know it's cleary impossible).

This is, of course, only my personal opinion - I'm still trying to find a clear definition of what a fan edit, restoration, preservation are, and nothing seems to be "written in the stone" (^^,) and you deserve the right to make your own color correction, but I strongly advice to NOT use your german HDTV capture...

The 1080i english HDTV is way better than the 720p german; take a look at these screenshots:

german 720p (yours, as you posted, untouched)

1080i english (VLC -> MSPaint -> resize 50% -> resize 73%, to match your picture)

the 1080i have more details, is less cropped, and colors are slightly different... it's AR is around 1.80:1, while the BD is 16:9 (1.77777...:1), so is closer to the theatrical AR of 1.85:1 (not so much, indeed...)

Could you explaind better what "mine" is? Is an attempt to use LD as color reference, and apply it to BD? And what process have you used?

Sorry for all these questions, but I'm curious...

dvdmike said:

It has that nasty pink 90s tinge all transfers had

...but what version do you think is closest to theatrical color timing? And which do you prefer?

Here you are an interesting comparison between LD, DVD and BD... I should add the HDTV has the same color grading of DVD.

I don't like BD colors, and I prefer LD, but I don't dislike DVD (HDTV) color grading, because it's near to LD than BD; neverthless, I think applying LD colors over HDTV will be the best solutions.

Opinions?

***   ***   ***

On audio side: the italian extended cut DVD and BD have a new dubbing... it's widely recognized that the original dubbing (of the theatrical cut) is better than this... another reason to do a preservation, from my POV.

Turisu said:

Aliens: Teal, teal & more Teal. :(

kk650 did a regraded version but it wasn't the theatrical cut and it was just a white-balancing of the colours rather than being based on any kind of reference. I'd love to see a regraded theatrical version that restores the steely blues of the older home video releases.

Speaking of Aliens (Extended Edition, though)... what about a spoRved version?

dvdmike said:

There was never a 70mm blow up but both lddb and this forum says it had a 4.0 theatrical track.

I am saying in no way is that cinema disc 4.0 it is way too well mixed to be a 4.0 track upmixed to 5.1.

I am saying it was always 5.1

What if two DTS soundtracks actually exist, one 5.1 DTS-6 and one matrixed 4.0 DTS-S?!? Just a pure speculation...

bigrob said:

 

The French Connection

that was resolved when Fox released a new BD under it's signature edition label that are exclusive to Bestbuy

it corrected the errors done my the director on the first BD 

Correction done, thanks!

Thanks to everyone! I'm happy you like my work, and hope to start soon some other projects like this (besided "The Matrix" that need *only* to be finished...)

I started a new thread about movies with wrong color grading to not derail this thread - please post there your consideration about color corrections.

(updated on 2015-04-01)

...or, the "Teal & Orange" syndrome has infected more directors than we could think of! (^^,)

(link to a couple blog entries: Into the Abyss - Not on Blu-Ray)

EDIT: some other interesting links to find out color grading differences:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1512231/xylons-comparison-pix-threads/0_50

http://www.caps-a-holic.com

http://www.screenshotcomparison.com

http://www.movie-censorship.com

Well, after I released my "The Thing [spoRv]" project, many users posted in that thread about the possibility to use the same technique to correct color grading of other movies - regarding the fact that some (many?) Blu-Ray new releases of old movies are affected...

So, I think a new thread is needed for this argument!

Here you are a list of Blu-Ray movies that (may) need a color grading correction

movie title: type of color grading problem (if known) - resolved?

• A.I. Artificial Intelligence
• Ace Ventura
• Ace Ventura 2
• Alien
• Alien vs. Predator Requiem: too dark - resolved (spoRv)
• Alien Resurrection
• Aliens: blue cast
• Army of Darkness: few differences
• Batman
• Batman Returns
• Beauty and the Beast - resolved (spoRv)
• Big Trouble In Little China
• Bravehearth
• A Clockwork Orange
• Contact
• Curse of Frankenstein
• The Day After Tomorrow: few differences
• The Deep
• Daylight: few differences
• Do the Right Thing: too "natural" look
• Duck You Sucker: very green/brownish and washed out
• Escape from New York: blue cast + warmed colors - resolved (spoRv)
• E.T.: The Extra-Terrestrial: few differences
• Eyes Wide Shut
• The Exorcist: various type - resolved (Dr. Sapirstein)
• The Fifth Element: few differences
• The Fog
• The French Connection: "pastel" look - resolved (BestBuy exclusive BD)
• Gladiator: few differences
• Godzilla: few differences
• The Great Escape: Teal & Orange
• Halloween: too "natural" look Vs THX DVD - resolved (spoRv)
• Hellboy: few differences
• Horror of Dracula: too cold
• Jurassic Park: resolved (ruLes)
• Labyrinth
• Léon - The Professional
• Lord of The Rings extended edition: green cast
• Night of the Living Dead (1990)
• A Nightmare on Elm Street
• Mad Max 2 (a.k.a. The Road Warrior) - in progress (PDB)
• Minority Report: too "natural" look - almost resolved (spoRv)
• Mission: Impossible
• The Mask: too saturated
• The Matrix: green cast to match sequels - almost resolved (spoRv)
• Pirates of the Caribbean: At World's End - few differences
• Raiders of the Lost Ark: gold - in progress (AntcuFaalb)
• The Searchers
• The Shining
• The Silence of the Lambs: colder than CC DVD
• Soylent Green: too green (^^,)
• Stargate: few differences
• Superman I
• Superman II
• Superman III
• Superman IV
• Superman V
• Suspiria
• The Ten Commandments
• Terminator 2: Judgement Day
• Terminator 3: Rise of The Machines
• The Thing: blue cast on whites + warmed colors - resolved (spoRv)
• Titanic
• Total Recall (1990) Mind Blowing Edition - will be resolved soon (spoRv)
• Waterworld: few differences

• modern Bond transfers (of old titles) are all wrong for color (I need titles)

notes: few differences = sometimes are barely noticeable, other times limited only to some scenes - it depends by the equipments used, the calibration made, and the eyes of the viewers...

Thanks a lot to all of you! The appreciation posts keep me going on.

@PDB: I can't be 100% sure my version is the right Thing, but considering the Teal&Orange trend, I'm quite confident John Carpenter will like it - I'm secretely hoping someone in his staff will find it, call him and says: "John, take a look..."; and him, after watching the comparison, says: "Who changes the colors in the BD? I didn't approve that blue cast over all images! I could be old, but still know snow should be white and not blue!" (^^,)

Anr MM2 is another example: who can be sure that the BD has not the right colors that the director has always intended? To me, clearly the BD has wong colors (as "The Thing", "The Matrix" and many others) - this is SO obvious... even with no official reference, or, at the contrary, the studios and/or directors keep telling us that these BD has "the right color grading that the movie should have in the theaters but never had on video because old technology didn't allow that before" (Lucas docet) - when we (educated videophiles) all know that is a big fat lie... OK, I should start a separate thread for this, don't you think?

Well, baci to MM2: I have the LD but not the BD; if someone would kindly agree to send me the 1:1 rip, I'll be more than happy to spoRvify it! But take into account I'm involved in many projects right now, and don't know when I'll start the MM2 one.

Last thing: what about the other Mad Max movies' color grading? 

DoomBot said:

Wow there really is no difference with hd-dvd and LD other than color. I like the LD alot more though.

The comparison were NOT between HDDVD and LD... Both video were from HDDVD, one with original colors, the other with LD colors. Am I right?

See this comparison:

http://www.caps-a-holic.com/hd_vergleiche/index.php?vergleich=waterworld

HDDVD is not that bad, and I think resolution is clearly higher than 1024x576 - look the details: if HDDVD resolution was so low, the difference would be less evident.

Although I LOVE laserdisc, I suggest to use HD-DVD video (eventally correcting its colors using laserdisc as reference, but don't think there will be necessary)

Audio wise, I think laserdisc soundtrack is a must! DTS, AC3 and PCM for english, PCM for german and italian (I'll do the latter capture if needed, along with english PCM and AC3).

Count me in!

"The Thing" is set in Antarctica: it is a "cold" film, and photography reflects this. I'm aware that the HD-DVD (and BD as well) colors are warmer and seems better, but they are not, well, right?

You could always watch the [spoRv] version, raise up saturation few notches, and obtain warmer colors; but if you take HD-DVD(BD) and set down saturation, snow will stay blue (or pink, or other color) but will not become white!

It will be interesting to ask John Carpenter which version is closer to his originally intended look! (^^,)

About BD problems: although I have not burned it on actual BD (yet), the m2ts file plays flawlessy on my old PC, and I tested it with the two most used players, VLC and Media Player Classic, so I can't help. But it seems other users have not problems to play file/burn disc, so probably it's due to your system.

I'm happy everything is ok!

I just bought my first BD-RE for the occasion - by the way, 3.5€ is a good price for an Emtec in a jewel box?!?

DoomBot,  thanks for the screenshot comparison post. What about the video in motion?

ColourMatch lossless version is ready; it will be used to spot the scenes with artifacts and replace them using other kind of color match scripts.

But I could not work on it now, as it's late, and I should work tomorrow all day, then I'll go out for vacation for a week, so hold on! until I'll be back in the first days of September; then, I'll be back to "The Matrix" project (and not only on this one...)

Good night to everyone!