spoRv

Moth3r,

happy to have your reply so fast!

Well, AFAIK the PAL and the JSC are the same, aren't they?

I choose to capture just *THIS* clip because it's one of the worsts...

Infact, in the GOUT the pedestrian before the landspeeder seems to has "invisible" legs; in the PAL master they are there, also if they are not too much defined.

It seems that this low definition is caused by repeated composite shots, aimed to cancel the obvious wheel under the speeder, and not caused by the DVNR.

Indeed, you can check on your PAL LD that we have a "two-eyed" stormtrooper and not a four-eyed one!

By the way, before making the capture, to convince myself again, I put on the PC the GOUT DVD with simultaneous view of the LD through DScaler, at the same resolution. After adjusting the LD colors to match the GOUT (just because it's more easy to do than the contrary) I chose some "offending" scenes, like the four-eyed stormtrooper and the one put here.

Well, again I hate that DVNR that is clearly visible on the DVD.

And, despite what many could say, I don't think the LD colors are ugly, but simply different... but I may find some "colorist" here in the forum to help me to choose the best colors, and the best settings to capture LDs.

For the "white magic": is just a "cut and paste" from different sources: I made many many tests with many many avisynth scripts, and at last I decided to use the "white magic" not because is the best in the world, but because to me it seems a right compromise between the perfection and a "cartoonized" movie. But, again, I'm an avisynth novice and all the help are welcome.

About my laserdisc players: check my other thread in this forum.

Thai Panther

I think this topic will be interesting for many...

I decided to do some capture tests (see my previous thread) but before them, I compared different players and different laserdisc edition.

Hardware used:

Pioneer CLD-D925 PAL/NTSC LD player

Pioneer CLD-2950 PAL/NTSC LD player

Pioneer LD-V4300D PAL/NTSC LD player

Pioneer DVL-909 PAL/NTSC LD player / PAL only DVD player

Pioneer CLD-600 PAL LD player

Pioneer DVR-320S DVD recorder (with 3D Y/C comb filter)

SAA733x based capture card in a Sony VGX-XL201 PC Core 2 Duo E6300

Notes: unless stated, the captures were not color corrected.

Let's start:

* choose which laserdisc platter to compare *

All are PAL OUT THX (no DVNR master) EXCEPT the "pyramid" edition that is not THX.

As you can see, the Pyramid french edition is the worst - older than the other, and no THX benefits. Has completely different colors, less details and cropped image. Discarded immediately.

The german edition seems to have a little more definition than the french one. The spanish shows a little less definition. So I choose to test the spanish.

Why I didn't choose the german one? Because it's too easy to test players with the best image, and I wanted to see which player shows the best with the non-top discs...

* test comparison one - using the spanish LD *

The first picture is taken from the Pioneer CLD-600 composite out passed through the Pioneer DVR-320S - note the difference VS the second picture, direct composite output?

Part of the merit is certainly of the 3D Y/C comb filter (but I presume it works only with NTSC video, and in PAL it *may* be a 4 or 5 lines 2D comb filter), but quite surely the second picture suffer from a DShow capture, instead of a higher quality direct capture, because DScaler don't "see" the composite in - note also the different image size. From now on, I'll use only the S-Video input of my capture card.

The third picture is from the DVL-909. To me, face colors are better and also the definition seems a little more better than the fourth picture, taken from the CLD-2950; by the way, the last picture shows a better white.

* test comparison two - using the spanish LD *

The first picture is from the Pioneer LD-V4300D routed through the DVR-320S, just because the first has not an S-Video out.

The second picture is from the same capture, but after some very basic Avisynth scripts, to correct color and cancel some noise. It seems it has better colors now.

The third picture is from the composite output of the CLD-D925 routed through the DVR-320S. It seems the blacks are "blacker" but the details are quite the same of the first picture.

The last picture is from S-Video output of the CLD-D925. Colors are less vibrant, but it looks like there are fewer artifacts than the previous picture.

Here you are the results.

What is the best picture?

Waiting for your comments,

Thai Panther

I have the Pioneer CLD-D925, CLD-2950, LD-V4300D.

I could agree with the previous posts:

CLD-D925 has a more "digital" picture but I must admit not so "undetailed" as the others wrote - you could notice it only in direct comparisons. Leave the HQ setting OFF everytime!

CLD-2950 has practically the same video quality, but more "analog". Avoid it ONLY if you want AC3 and can't find a modified one (or can't modify yourself)

LD-V4300D seems to have the most detailed picture. I have to test the BNC out, because I suspect (as wrote by laserman) it delivers a more pure video signal. I'll test ASAP

I can add also that the Pioneer DVL-909 (LD/DVD combi) has the same quality of the CLD-D925.

The Pioneer CLD-600 has no "digital frills" inside so could *maybe* has a better picture.

I tested all (except the CLD-600) via S-video with my Philips SAA-713x based capture card. I also made some test using the player composite out passed on my Pioneer DVR-320S (that, "accidentally" has a 3D Y/C comb filter - by the way, I think it works only for NTSC, for PAL it may have a simpler 4 or 5 line filter) and from it to the capture card via S-video.

I captured the CLD-600 via composite, but DScaler doesn't "see" my composite input directly so I captured it via DShow - but the quality lacks, I think because the different settings of the DShow filter. So I passed the composite to the DVR-320S and the difference is HUGE.

I'll post the pictures soon in another post - STAY TUNED!

Thai Panther

Hello to everyone.

This is my first post, but I’m a long time lurker.

I want to say thanks to everyone that spread a lot of work and effort on preserving our beloved original trilogy! THANK YOU!

Back to the topic:

is “really” necessary another restoration project?

There are many available, some with very good quality, so…

I have available a dozen laserdisc players, both NTSC and PAL (also “the dream” HLD-X9), with a LOT of Trilogies, OUT and SE, PAL and NTSC, CLV and CAV…

Well, I decided to do a little test with my PAL french THX laserdisc; because it’s a decent PAL master (with 20% more vertical details than NTSC and no problems with IVTC) and in particular because it’s DVNR FREE!

I used a Pioneer CLD-D925 (a less-than-perfect specimen, to say the truth) with a standard S-Video cable (I know, I know, more explanations on the next posts) and a 9-bit capture card based on the Philips SAA713x chip (a good card, indeed).

Then, I “recicled” some Avisynth script found “here and there” to make my own script, called… WHITE MAGIC (an homage to Laserman’s Black Magic).

It upscale the capture to 1920x1080 (actually 1920x810) with some basic noise reduction and color correction.

The (eventual) project aims to upscale the PAL OUT laserdiscs to 1080p@24fps in avc/h.264 and make an AVCHD recorded on a double layer DVD, so it’s possible to see it on a PS3 or a compatible Blu-Ray player.

I know that upscaling doesn’t rapresent a full HD image, but IMHO is better to transcode - and have “fixed” results - than let the HDTV make the uspcaling “on the fly” - leave the work to the internal (or external) upscaler, with different results.

Here you are the screenshots:

raw capture 1

white magic 1

raw capture 2 (look, I have LEGS!)

white magic 2

raw capture 3

white magic 3

(images are formatted to the same size, but the raw captures are PAL SD and the “white magic” are FULL HD)

To see the real improvements, cut and paste the following links to test clips:

raw capture (about 11MB)

https://rapidshare.com/files/817154170/TEST_-_RAW_CAPTURE.avi

white magic (about 11MB)

https://rapidshare.com/files/2227793752/TEST_-_WHITE_MAGIC.avi

(both the test clips are compressed by VirtualDub; video AVC/H.264 at 8000Kbps, audio PCM uncompressed)

You are encouraged to tell the truth: if this project has to be further developed, or must be terminated ASAP because it is REALLY unnecessary.

All comments are welcome!

In case of positive reactions, any help are highly appreciated - in particular Avisynth masters!!!

Thanks to all (k. in particular),

ThaiPanther