spoRv

Probably I'll use it into one of my next project... keep an eye on the "other preservation..." forum!

I took the old PAL capture, the new PAL capture, mix them and... surprise! History repeats itself... it's the same technique I used with my OUT and SET projects... at least I have reached some advantages:

1. I was sure this technique (overlay multiple copies of the same material) work, and I have a confimation
2. during this time my knowledge and skills advanced, and it could be seen in the mix Vs ruLes
3. for ruLes, something went wrong with the captures I did at the time - player, settings, cables, who knows? - or I simply applied a wrong color correction setting - albeit I'm sure this scene received no color correction at all...

And I discovered that if, for mistake, you feed a non-mod4 video file to virtualdub, something terrible could happen...

First of all, I apologize, as I have uncorrectly resized the picture at wrong aspect ratio... as the 1997 SE AR is about 2.25:1, and I resized them at 2.35:1... it's THE FORCE... of habit!

I used tfm/tdecimate to IVTC it, using default settings, so maybe it is why the quality lacking a bit... but hey, was just a test, after all! (°°u)

As the BD exists, they are not nee... WAIT! As I have some problems with my "The Matrix" project, and I must replace some scenes with upscaled DVD, why not? I have the PAL DVD, all I will need some NTSC lossless scenes... I'll let you know, thanks for your offer!

I've done these tests only because...

IT!. . . COULD! . . . WORK!!"

Actually, it is possible to use both NTSC and PAL trilogies to build up a better version... I thought to do it some months ago, but as it seems the interest is near zero, I don't know if I'll do it... a lot of work, captures, alignment...

Yes, indeed... they seems strange coincidences, but I'm pretty sure the engineers thought well about video questions, even in those "analog" times... (^^,)

Problem partially solved... I managed to recapture the same scenes, both from the NTSC and PAL UK SE... I've done the NTSC using the level settings "as is", and, even if the pink is visible, is still lower than the SET [ruLes]; then I lowered the saturation bar from 64 to 40 before capture the PAL, and result are much similar to the test capture. Below, PAL, NTSC, enanched mix.

Maybe I'm forced to redo the 1997 SE project... you could donwload the clip if you want; you could find it in this post where I'll continue to test laserdisc captures and upscales.

OK, here you are my latest test - download (6.5MB)

I captured two brief scenes, from the PAL UK and NTSC US 1997 SE; denoised, upscaled, and overlaid.

Comments are welcome!

Another thing I thought is the following: as it seems there is no proper Dolby Surround/Dolby ProLogic software encoder, it is still possible to capture the analog out of a Dolby ProLogic hardware decoder, and then use the captured sountrack to build up a discrete soundtrack for a project, using low compressed AC3/DTS...

A "simple" uncompressed PCM is the most logical way - even a low compressed AC3 should retain the Dolby Surround matrixed signal - but I wonder if the former technique will result in better (or different) audio, as the Dolby ProLogic (hardware) decoder should first convert analog matrixed stereo signal to digital, then decode it to four discrete channel, and convert back to analog, while a Dolby Digital simply "disassemble" the digital stream, so no ADC is involved...

It will be interesting to make some tests, as there are certain Dolby Surround tracks that are better than their discrete counterparts...

Opinions?

Chewtobacca said:

I guess DE is on the bottom.

Ehr... actually not... (^^/)

I just compressed it using virtualdub...

I did another test using an old NTSC SE capture I made more than two years ago - rough, no optimal capture settings, no high quality cables, mid-low laserdisc player for NTSC standard... -> (click for bigger version):

(you can download a few frames clip here - just 1.33MB)

Top spanish HDTV ("TodoTV") - ColourMatch'ed to be close to the LD (if you see strange colored artifacts, it's the script fault...), bottom LD capture, denoised, upscaled and regrained a bit.

I can't think what could be achieved with proper capture settings, high quality cables, and the Pioneer HLD-X9...

Now, I don't want to tell that a denoised and upscaled LD video is on par with HDTV, but if no other HD version exists, at least we could obtain a decent version using laserdisc as source (some examples that came into my mind: Ransom Extended Cut, The Arrival with alternate ending...)

I decided to not sync my project to GOUT because laserdiscs have missing frames too, and also audio of course...

But if you have 1/2 seconds of audio at the beginning and ending of each reel, I think you could just repeat one frame to replace the eventual missing one, and stay in sync with the GOUT.

My 2c...

Today I was joking with my new upscaling script, I found an old test capture file, and I said myself “Why not? Let’s test it too!”.

After I finished, I noted that it could be a 1997 SE capture… “it can’t be, it has no pink shift, it SHOULD be a OT capture!”… as I deleted all my SE and OT captures (sigh!) I played my own OT project, but something was wrong… apart different color grading, cropping were different… “can it be REALLY a SE capture?”

So, I managed to make a direct comparison, and here you are the screenshot:

think that when I made my project, I did it comparing it frame by frame with the GKAR version, and mine was waaay less pink than it…

So, I wonder, how is it possible? Sherlock Holmes should come to solve this mistery… (^^,)

Here you are some facts:

1. the test capture was captured in RGB, using DScaler instead VirtualDub, and is PAL
2. I captured all the laserdiscs I used for my project with VirtualDub, HuffYUV, all of them are PAL
3. I don’t remember which laserdisc I used for the test capture…
4. …and which laserdisc player - maybe a different one than what I used for the projects, as I have several
5. I usually left capture level settings (brightness, contrast etc.) at default - not sure 100%, but around 99%…

and some speculation about them:

1. I don’t think capturing in RGB should make some difference, but I strongly suppose that using DScaler instead VirtualDub could
2. or could be the HuffYUV fault… maybe VirtualDub’s wrong settings, but I can’t suppose which one could lead to such results
3. it doesn’t matter which laserdisc I used, as for my project I used EVERY PAL SW laserdisc I have… all of them!
4. but, probably, not every combination of laserdisc/laserdisc player… and, I should admit is it possible I used a DVD recorder as comb filter for that test (that I have not used with my projects…), but is not probable, as I did DVD recorder tests after the test capture card!
5. I’m almost sure even if I touched settings, it will be not possible to completely defeat pink shift…

Well, if I will ever find the cause of the really good results of the test capture, and if I will be able to repeat it, then I could really really think to remake the 1997 SE project based on laserdisc - even if it seems there is no interest in it…

Can you state (roughly) how much time will pass? weeks? months? Just out of curiosity, I will wait, as all the other forum members, all the time is needed, but I can't wait to see your version released!

If you need laserdisc soundtracks for your projects, I have (almost) all of them! Ask, and I'll be happy to collaborate.

An example of "less is more" enhancement, made on Spanish LD old capture - top original, bottom enhanced:

(you can download the clip here, it's only 486KB)

In this screenshot the enhanced version seems. ehr, less enhanced, as there is a lot of grain in it... I actually added it, because in motion it seems more natural, while with the previous setting it seemed a bit "plastic-y".

It's good to see someone else still interested in laserdisc-related stuff!

Registration program? What is it?

And, did you guess which one is the DE? (^^,)

By the way, many compliments for your job, I can't wait to see a 10K scan of a 35mm (or, better, a 70mm) done with your scanner... if it's Star Wars, here we will be all happy, but I could "live" with another movie, too...

Here you are a "fast and dirty" real source test... I found into that old HDD two files; first is the PAL GOUT, second is a 1997 SE test that msycamore posted about a year ago...

GOUT is PAL letterbox, and myscamore's test is NTSC anamorphic; the latter has (obviously) a different color grading, and different cropping too... to match a bit the colors, I ColourMatch'ed the latter to be similar to GOUT, then I added some borders to trying to align spacially the two images... as you can see, this is one of the worst cases, as there are three major problems to solve (letterbox Vs anamorphic, color grading, different cropping)

I cut a small clip (32s) because after that the SE had different scenes; playing the PaNup video shows that many scenes are visibly off alignment, while others are almost in line, in particular the last one... here you are some screen shots:

(you could note some artifacts onto the NTSC due to ColourMatch script)

I eagerly wait to test PaNup with proper material...

captainsolo said:

Vertigo's old LD is analog only so we've often thought a Beta or VHS issue may yield slightly better audio. I haven't got the chance to really take a close look at the new mono on the BD (in DTS) but I'm almost positive the 2005 Masterpiece Collection DVD mono is the same as the old analog LD source. Certainly sounds like it.

I disagree... LD analog audio could be really high quality... take a look at my thread about laserdisc sound here; if VHS (or Beta) is Hi-Fi stereo, it *may* be better than analog laserdisc soundtrack; you still have to use a TBC to stabilize video, as the Hi-Fi stereo soundtrack on VHS is "drowned" inside the video signal...

It should work with VHS too, but, as it has lower resolution (especially chroma), results will be less impressive, but always better than "straight" PAL or NTSC capture... I'm working right now with another test, I'll post it soon (I hope...)

...forgot to wrote, one is the *enhanced* laserdisc capture, the other is Harmy's DE...

PDB said:

That's great _,,,^..^,,,_, can't wait to hear them.

As Jonno have "Jaws", this means I am "forced" to do "Escape From New York"... (^^,)

I'm quite sure the THX PAL laserdisc don't use NTSC masters - as they often have more resolution than GOUT DVDs, but almost sure the original masters used are the same, as it seems there are the same faults...

The problem is it's almost impossible to align the PAL and NTSC perfectly... but that's "almost" is that what is interesting...

Take a look at the link I added to the first post to have an idea: the captures were not high quality, and not perfectly aligned, but result is everything but bad!

It will be interesting to find a movie which has not any HDTV version, but has PAL and NTSC versions - both laserdiscs or both DVDs - to test.

Anyone who happens to have PAL and NTSC versions of the same movie, that are perfectly spacially aligned each other, and want to share some clips (10/20 seconds long, lossless), please P.M. me as I'd like to test this script further.

…despite the fact that it’s an analog, low definition, obsolete format… I love that old big shihy disc! (^^,)

As I wrote in this thread, I managed to write a script which mix and upscale two versions of the same material, PAL and NTSC. I called “PaNup - PAL and NTSC upscale”, plain and simple (and easy to remember, I hope).

Because I’m lazy, I searched “in the maze” of my old hard disk, and found two captures, PAL and NTSC, of the same scene. They were made more than two years ago, and I was at the beginning of my capture skills, and they were only test captures, so quality lacks, and there are missing/repeated frames all over… but I found some frames that (almost) matches, so I said myseld “let’s give them a try!”…

I took those two captures, PaNup’ed them, denoised, ColourMatch’ed to Harmy’s DE, and here you are the result:

(if you want to download the small clip, to analyze better each frame, this is the link)

Not high definition, but stand up at par (IMHO) to the DE. What do you think?

Avatar_Emil said:

Very nice, Andrea! I smell OUT ruLes 3.0!

What a good sense of smell have you! (^^,)

Well, as I deleted ALL the captures I used for OUT (and SET too), what I need is to recapture them all (again) possibly with a better PAL player, try to find an NTSC smear-free trilogy on laserdisc (Technidisc) and capture them with the Pioneer HLD-X9, then use the PaNup script to match them to obtain a better video quality and... presto! A OUT [ruLes 3.0] will be ready...

In the meanwhile, Harmy will release his DE 2.5, and team negative1 will release their version... so, probably I'll give up! (**/) - I do LOVE laserdisc, and I "squeezed" out every bit of details from it, but when a higher resolution source is available, it's better to use it...

With this, I could always think to redo the SET trilogy, as I think there is still possible to realize a more than decent version using laserdisc as a source - until someone would like to do a De-Re-Specialized edition, something like what Harmy did with his DE, but obtaining a 1997 version... in this case, this person WILL need some part from the laserdisc, so I hope he/she will contact me!