This result is excellent, but I don't think a single adjustment will be right for the whole movie; more tests should be done on different shots to prove if that technique will work.
ehr... you should upload the image to some image hosting services... I use postimage.com
Here you are my attempt, in comparison with Stamper's - just to show that our results are really similar (click for original version):
clouds are back, trees are more orange but still not like the DVD...
Here you are the shot you are talking about, taken from the HD-DVD:
http://www.sendspace.com/file/6i4r0o
as you can see, that "heavy artifact" is there, so it's not a [spoRv] problem... what it is, frankly I don't know!
...it seems that I'm forced not only to color regrading the movie, but also to capture and sync the laserdisc PCM audio... OK, if I'm forced to... (^^,)
I agree, but you know, I prefer to test and see results (bad or good) with my own eyes... at least, it's only a (one more) test!
So the last test I should do is to use a "pure" analog laserdisc player...
Audio range is within 1-20KHz (up to 100/200KHz sometimes) while composite video is up to 3.58MHz (NTSC)... so, I don't think that device could handle signal in the orders of MHz... but I'd happy to be proved wrong!
What about my idea about RGB capture?
Strange, as I encoded the video @18.5mbps and then it could not be around 50mbps or over... I burned myself the BD, and had not problems...
I don't think it would work with video signal, but if something like this exists for video signal, then it could work!
...and now, something completely different... a lot of time ago, I was reading in a thread that a user have captured the RGB signal from a laserdisc (with RGB output, of course) three times, each for read, green and blue signal, then recombined it (don't rembember if with avisynth) and the result was better than "straight" composite.
Now, it happens I have a laserdisc player with RGB output - but I was not able to find anywhere a DB9-to-RCA (or to BNC) cable... if someone could provide me that cable, or point me to some store that has it, I will be more than happy to test this technique!
It's what I was thinking about... as in theory it does work!
What about poita's positive result? Could you write something about them?
I was aware of the first project, didn't read about the second despite the fact I visited his blog recently. Both have really great potential, and hope they will reach a working phase.
Meanwhile, if someone could solve the infamous phase-inversion trick... (^^,)
I'm still thinking that a capture card is the best way to go; uncompressed 4:2:2 is the minimum requirements.
I'm following an Aja Kona/Xena LHe, but as it's PCI-E, and I have only one PCI-E occupied by the video card, I should find a PCI video card if I want to install the Aja card... anyone has experience with an Aja capture card that has composite input?
The problem should be the ES15, as it *must* correct the rainbow problems with its comb filter; if not, it simply has a low quality comb filter... and I have not the DVE DVD to test...
As I bought it here in Italy, I'm quite sure it's NOT the P/PC model...
What about Phase-Inversion trick? poita seems to had good results using it...
Well, the fact that I have rainbow in the Snell&Wilcox both wih still and moving pictures, and I use the NTSC Video Essential laserdisc!!!
PAL DV signal is 4:2:0 as the DVD, so it's better than NTSC DV.
I still prefer to capture at 4:2:2 to preserve as much color information as possible for further processing.
Usually "2.0 surround" is encoded in Dolby Surround, but there are compatible alternative (read: when decoded with a Dolby Surround decoder they will sound as good as the original DS material).
The ones you could find on laserdisc are DTS Stereo, UltraStereo, CHACE. And, IIRC, there were some company that avoided to pay Dolby royalties, so they decided to print on the cover only the words "Surround Sound", without Dolby... don't know if the track was mixed with a Dolby encoder or with another method.
DPL - Dolby Pro Logic - is a decoder, that decoded Dolby Surround encoded material; there is no DPL encoded soundtracks.
The problem is that, using the firewire with NTSC material, the colorspace is 4:1:1...
Take a look at this post, second image: as my ES15 have the same chipset of the ES10, it seems its comb filter has very low quality...
I should find a new capture card! Or, find the way to let the phase-inversion trick to work...
metaleonid said:
To the previous poster _,,,^..^,,,_. Something is not right with your screenshots. How come that for the last Snell & Wilcox picture all screenshots have rainbows and dot crawls. Are you sure you didn't by mistake capture directly using S-Video from the LD player thinking that you routed via the DVD Recorders?
I'm sure. Maybe it's because the composite out of the CLD-D925 is simply a recombined Y/C signal and so could not be decombed properly? I should make further tests with another laserdisc player...
I started to use another CLD-D925 as main laserdisc player, and I wanted to test its comb filter, so I re-do some old tests that I previously made with another specimen.
My PC has an AverMedia BDA capture card, based on the Philips SAA713x chipset; I've done these tests using the CLD-D925 composite out to three different DVD recorder, used in passthrough mode as comb filters; the Panasonic DMR-ES15, the Pioneer DVR-320 (comb filter set for movement), and the Yukai DVDR-100B (a Mustek clone, for whom it may concern...), then from the DVD recorder to the capture card via S-Video cable; plus, a direct CLD-D925 -> capture card via S-Video; the test video is from the NTSC Video Essential.
I used also the only PAL laserdisc I own with a test card - actually, a CD-Video, and (sadly) it shows... - to test an USB AverMedia EZMaker capture card, just to see how bad it was!
The result capture were made with VirtualDub, at 720x576 for PAL, and 720x480 for NTSC, encoded with Lagarith lossless codec, then I use a simple avisynth script to show them. The NTSC screenshots have the same frame, while I didn't bother to do the same with the PAL, as they are so ugly... "thanks" to the CD-Video highest quality...
Well, I uploaded images as PNG, and they are quite big (few MB each) so everyone who is curious enough, could examine them better; here you are the links:
PAL CDV test
image 1 (test card) | image 2 (resolution)
NTSC VE test
image 1 (color bars) | image 2 (contrast) | image 3 (test card1) | image 4 (test card2)| image 5 (Snell & Wilcox)
Conclusion: none of them has a decent comb filter, so I should buy a better capture card and/or a device with a better comb filter, or... I could try the phase-inverted trick!
...good result, eh? The only fact that this phase-inverted trick is, actually... a trick! (^^,)
I took a frame when the circle was still, I took the following frame, and I overlaid them to obtain the third picture.
This is a demonstration that inverting the phase SHOULD work! But I tried every possible test to achieve it, without success... I switched off the laserdisc player, then on, capture, nothing... off, inverted the plug, on, capture, nothing... the same with the DVD recorder, at the same time or one at a time, plus with the PC too... I tried to invert the plug for everything, but nothing!!! I've done dozen captures, and the phase was always the same... why? If really it should work when the devices are switched off, if should happen before or after, but not never! Did you try to launch a coin for ten times? Did it happen that the same face appeared EVERY time? Yes, it's a possibility, one out of 2^10... actually, it's not impossible, it's one out of 1024 possibilities, but I should be really, REALLY unlucky - and probably I am...
OR... there is another explanation... maybe the Pioneer CLD-D925 finds everytime the "right" phase, as it has digitally *improved* analog video out? If so, I should try to redo the same test with a digital-free player, like the Pioneer LD-V4300D. Or, maybe I have to switch off the home electricity at all? If someone has an explanation, please let me know, I'm going crazy... poita, antcufaalb, if you read this post, and you did succesful a phase-inversion trick, post it here how have you achieved that task! I'd like to do some important laserdisc captures soon, and I'd really like to use this trick to eliminate all chroma noise before further processing...
Finished to read (more or less) all the thread, and it seems no one has these ones:
Wizard of Oz - mono + isolated score & effect track
Dirty Harry - is AC3, but the other analog channel is mono, so it *should* be the original mono soundtrack...
Could be interesting to preserve?
It's really difficult to say which is the right color reference for a given movie... you can't trust your memory, so you must find some kind of reference. Photographs taken at the theater could in theory be a proper one, but could an analog camera take a reference picture in a dark theater, without flash?
Then there are production stills, documentaries, books, magazines... back to "simple" reference, I tend to think the oldest, the better - in term of color reference... see, for every new video format there is a new version that claim itself "the best, the most close to the theater experience", and often the director and/or the director of photography says "I approve it, this is the definitive version"... the problem is, it could happen two, three, even four times, and everytime each version is different from the former, even if each is THE definitive version... so, which is THE right one?
I think that, with year, directors - as they are human beings like us, did you know? - began to grow old, and tired, and when they were young they were all involved in their movies, from the beginning to the end of production and after... then, when they grow old, if a young representative of a studio go to them and say "Mr. Director, we'll release a new version of your movie... this time it's THE definivie edition, with the best video quality, the right colors, the greatest sound... just sign here, and here you are your check!" what could they do? Just sign the paper, and take the check to their bank... (^^,)
I offer myself to do it... not right now - I have several project on my agenda - but soon... after all, I've made a color regrading project on John Carpenter's movie "The Thing" with good results - and it will be revised to be almost perfect, soon or later - probably later...
Meanwhile, I could make a test to see if it's possible to produce good results: I just need a small clip (10/20s) of both BD and DVD, possibly lossless; to see if my technique produce artifacts, the scene should contain the highest white levels possible - usually a really bright light would go.
This is because, if the BD or DVD has clipping white, there will be ever problems on that affected shots, as I discovered myself with "The Matrix"... I worked hard to solve that problem, but after a month of testing, I realized that it's impossible to recover clipped whites, even if there are other way to accomplish that task for those scenes too, it will takes only more time...
And I strongly suggest everyone to do a Color IQ test, to discover if you have color vision problems, or your display is not well calibrated (or worst, both...)
