@DoomBot: yes!
@thegroovologist: this shot?
from this frame, of from the beginning of this shot?
Many thinks that MPEG2 is necessarily a bad codec to use, in particular for HD video - because is old, and there are more sophisticated new video codecs around; well, even if AVC (and VC-1, too) is better - a lot, indeed - this "ancient" codec is quite good.
With this, I don't encourage anyone to compress video using MPEG2 instead AVC, at the contrary; but, when you encounter an MPEG2 hi-def source - like HDTV or D-VHS - please don't discard it immediately!
following this table, if an AVC file size is set to 100%, a comparable quality MPEG2 video should have a file size of about 224%, right?
Ain't that cute? BUT IS WRONG! 
PSNR should be used to make comparisons between different encoders or quality settings, but with the same codec, not between different codecs...
Infact, MPEG2 (as AVC and all modern video codecs) takes in account the human vision, and works "tricking" the brain (through the eye).
So, if we have two similar images in perceived quality, PSNR could be a totally wrong method to calculate it... SSIM is a better method!
Example:
As you can see, images are really close in quality, right? But, according to PSNR, the first has only 3/4th quality of the second, while using only our eyes, we should disagree, as we think quality is really close...
Conclusion: even if an MPEG2 source has a lower bitrate in comparison to the same (or comparable) AVC one, it should not (necessarily) means that the MPEG2 has a bad quality! Indeed, sometimes it is surprisingly good, if the bitrate used is adequate - and many HDTV and D-VHS files proves this! So, encoding bitrates and codecs used are only parts of the quality equation, along with master used, encoder type, quality settings etc... and, last but not least, our expectations!
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Personal thought: as in the late years almost all BD releases are AVC (and, in minor part, VC-1), and MPEG2 is almost abandoned, I think many, if not all, standalone BD players have a superior AVC (VC-1) decoder in comparison to MPEG2; so, maybe the one used, probably in a single chip with AVC, it's an ancient one with lower quality in comparison to newest ones found in e.g. HDTV receivers; also, ffdshow (libavcodec) is considered by many the best MPEG2 decoder and I think is not available in standalone BD players.
So, decoding an MPEG2 source (BD, HDTV, D-VHS etc) with libavcodec, and encode it to AVC (at higher bitrate) using X264 (probably the best AVC encoder), and authoring this to a BD-R, *should* improve a bit the quality, instead of using the MPEG2 file "as is" (if it's BD compliant, of course) authored to BD-R...
Can someone confirm/confute this?
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Resources:
Video quality characterization techniques
...this is the link I wrote in post 39; still, it's unclear if some materials are the same, or not, of the boxset laserdisc...
Thanks a lot for "It's a Disaster" dissertation; it supports what I, DoomBot and many others thought about the use of grain!
Well, I'd like to make a test clip; let's choose two clips - 30sec each; first thegroovologist, as you are following this thread from a long time; just post starting time (min:sec); DoomBot, you are the second, only because entered late in the discussion, not for importance - you know it!
Happy to hear both of you liked my efforts; even if the applied grain is not immediately noticeable, it improves a bit the perceived resolution - as this grain plate is from 35mm film, and it's analog and "organic", it should be better than any fake grain IMHO; improving the contrast is important for the final result, too, as change the color grading to a better quality.
As I discovered there is NO italian BD for this movie, I will DEFINITELY want to do this project; but, as I wrote before, it's time to do the "next step", and include extras this time... I'm not sure if the KinoWelt german DVD has the same material found onto the Pioneer boxset laserdisc, but I HAVE to know it... best method will be to make an A/B comparison, but I have only the B part (laserdisc) while missing the A part (DVD)... anybody can help?...or should I start a new "The Arrival [spoRv]" thread right now, and ask there for help?!?
I tested PaNup using "The Abyss" PAL DVD letterbox, and NTSC R6 DVD, anamorphic; overlaid at 40% PAL and 60% R6 (as it has more resolution); applied at the end a grain plate - LINK
It could be an interesting technique to restore movies that are not available in HD, but only as PAL and NTSC DVDs - or letterbox and anamorphic DVDs.
I add this:
kindly posted by poita into AMPS forum; it's really interesting, but few time to guess the correct answer for my tastes... (^^,)
I will NEVER do an MP3 version of it!!! (^^,)
So, you should wait for the project release... I want to add ALL the extras - still don't know if release movie + extras as 2x BD-25 or single BD-50 - but I need the german Kinowelt DVD; plus the french and spanish soundtracks!
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Some quotes from online reviews:
Black levels could stand to be darker and deeper. As it is, they take on a brightness that lends to them a grayish appearance. Most of the image, too, appears washed out, often as if a thin layer of film covers the screen.
http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/The-Arrival-Blu-ray/3929/#Review
But if detail is impressive, color is not. During its best moments, the movie's palette is flat and naturalistic. The worst shots suffer from weak blacks and colors that are slightly washed out.
http://www.dvdverdict.com/reviews/arrivalbluray.php
The image is remarkably color muted and lacking depth and dimensionality often seen in high definition transfers whose original prints date back even earlier than this ones. Contrast is nearly non-existent with blacks washing out into dark grays, and intensive shadowy areas omnipresent in an alien compound fall victim to black crush.
http://www.thehdroom.com/news/The-Arrival-Blu-ray-Review/5161
What also hurts are the non-existent black levels, generating no depth whatsoever as the film is swallowed in ugly shades of flat gray. Colors are subdued and dim
http://www.doblu.com/2011/02/06/the-arrival-review/
Strangely, they were all right... but fear not, we have a solution! (^^,)
Latest tests: left BD, right BD with contrast correction and grain plate applied (click for larger version):
thegroovologist said:
I'd really go with the Blu-ray version.
It seems is the only way to go... unless someone is aware of a "hidden jem" HDTV broadcast buried somewhere... and then, it should be analyzed to see if it will be really better than BD...
Also, what about eventual HD streaming?
At the end, BD is not a tragedy; it isn't perfect, it's true, but not completely rubbish... infact, even if grain is almost gone, many details are still retained; as now, it's the best HD version we have, I'm afraid...
CATroy, maybe... (^^,) but I prefer to leave it shrouded in mystery...
I'm following so many thread that I lost myself... so, actually, is anybody working on a BTTF project, using the available DCP re-encoded file as video source, and laserdisc soundtracks (engish, and maybe other languages as french, italian etc.) as audio sources?!?
Doc, thanks for the info, and the praises! (-^,)
Now, someone has compatibility issues, others not... the mystery thickens!
Maybe it is something connected to the fact that I was forced to reinstall the OS... I should try to re-encode the main video, using the new one to replace the one I used for the BD-25 project, burn a BD and test it in more than few standalone BD players...
I'd like to add that many (me included) think that the AC3 soundtrack found on laserdisc is (usually) better than DVD - even when DVD is at 448kbps - because LD *should* be the same, or really low processed, of the theatrical soundtrack...
Further "blah blah blah" here! (^^,)
Sorry, I mean "I searched all over the web..."
About the new thread: please go ahead, and don't limit it only to laserdisc sourced projects... add also HD-DVD, HDTV, D-VHS, DVD... everything!
I found all over the web, but still not found an HDTV version... does it *really* exist?!? If someone has it, or know where to find it, please let me know!
Of course, from BATB on, I'll use the X9 for any laserdisc capture involved in a preservation project!
It is MORE than welcome... as it seems I should release a V. 1.1 when I'll find the way to solve the BD compatibility issues!
What about the mix between the two editions? I'd like some feedback, as I'm thinking about a project - of course, along with the Criterion laserdisc soundtrack, plus - if available - Orion laserdisc and other from previous DVD releases...
You can call me _,,,^..^,,,_ as well - BTW, how can I pronounce it?!? (^^,)
Well, this is an interesting thing... but I'm afraid I have not that french LD!
If some other french user would like to capture it, I will add that track to the final project, but I need to know ASAP as probably I should re-encode the video to accomodate all the files into a BD-25!
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I watched by myself the movie two days ago... my daughter was not interested, despite the fact I've started this project also thinking about her... well, I must check the video, so I continued to watch it... and, I discovered I haven't seen it before! I watched so many movies, TV series and cartoons during my whole life, and I was sure I had seen it, but with my own surprise, this was the first time!
OK, video is quite good, it doesn't seem from a laserdisc, and resolution is satisfactory, even if not razor-sharp as late animation; color grading is right; I have noted three or four frames with very minor drop outs found in the original source, but they are so little that probably only one will be noted during a normal (read: watched only for pleasure, and not to spot out every single possible error) view, and is not so annoying; I could fix it, it's true, but to me is like a flaw that adds that "vintage" look that I love!The only thing that I noted is colors are sometimes muted - in comparison to BD - but I think they are well balanced and not overly exagerated...
At the end, a good result for a LD based project.
And, by the way, I LOVED the story!
Keep working, Doc; I'd happy to see new projects around here!
I'm near the completion, but I need someone who can help me with subtitles...
I have all the needed idx/sub files, but don't know how to mux in the final .m2ts file; TSMuxer don't accept it, EasyBD lite neither...
I thought also to OCR them, then let the software re-render them; but this conversion will probably lead to some errors...
Suggestions?
Found that a German DVD has some extras... here you are the info:
KinoWelt DVD (anamorphic 1.85:1)
Making of "The Arrival" (7 minutes) - featurette
Behind the Scenes (5 minutes) - featurette
Interviews with:
Charlie Sheen, Ron Silver, Lindsay Crouse, Teri Polo, David Twohy, Thomas G. Smith, Cyrus Yavneh, Chuch Finance (7 minutes)
Theatrical Trailer (German / English)
Pioneer Laserdisc Boxset
Extras:
Running audio commentary by director writer David Twohy
Original documentary (exclusive to laserdisc) featuring interviews with:
Charlie Sheen, Teri Polo, Writer/Director David Twohy, Producer Tom Smith, Production Designer Michael Novotny, Director of Photography Hiro Narita, A.S.C.
Also includes: behind-the-scenes footage, storyboards and an alternate ending.
Theatrical trailer
For sure, laserdisc has the audio commentary not found elsewhere; for the other contents, I have not found further info to know if the DVD first three extras are actually the same material found on the laserdisc commentary...
For BD playback issues, I opened a dedicated thread, to gather all comments and try to find out a solution; please post your BD feedback there, thanks!
Actually, I just overlaid the grain plate to the image, but it improved a bit contrast and brightness as consequence!
Can you provide a small clip (let's say 1 min) from the BD, not re-encoded? Choose the part you like less - for grain lack in particular; I'd like to test the grain plate in motion.
Dark_Jedi seems to have added this title to Team Blu's projects, but I'm not sure about it... I offered my help with soundtracks and extra material, still no answer, though... if he will not be interested, and the test will be satisfactory, it could be one of my next project - whenever I'll solve the BD disc compatibility issues!
So, if Halloween plays smoothly (apart slow navigation, that I could confirm I encountered in x264 encoded material), then EasyBD Lite works well, and the problem lies in MultiAVCHD...
You can find MultiAVCHD project file inside the EFNY folder \BDMV\AUXDATA\multiAVCHD.mpf - could you please take a look and see if I forgot something, or made wrong settings? Many thanks in advance!
I did further tests: I played the BD-RE into an old Philips BD-7100; all menu worked flawlessy, but movie stutters after few seconds of normal play; if I go to the next chapter, again movie plays normally then stutters... again and again.
So I cut a random 1 minute clip from the movie, with all soundtracks and subtitles intact, changed the profile from 4.1 to 4.0, replaced the main movie with this short clip, burned all to the BD-RE, replayed it in the BD-7100, and it worked!
Then I remuxed the whole movie at 4.0 profile, burned it to BD-RE, tested with the BD-7100, and... it didn't work - it was like the first time! But I noted that the trailer works well in both cases, I tested the initial and ending credits, and they were ok...
It's a bitrate problem, I thought... then I remembered I've done an AVCHD some years ago that has a bitrate over the standard, and it worked as this... plus, another member wrote that his standalone BD player recognized the BD as an AVCHD...
At the end, it seems that MultiAVCHD has made an AVHCD compliant disc, instead of a BD, even if I chose BD as the final format!!! I used MultiAVCHD 4.1 build 771.
Because the final structure seems to be BD compliant, how can I discover that is instead an AVCHD? Is there a free software that could "convert" the AVCHD structure to BD compliant, without re-encoding?
For BD playback issues, I opened a dedicated thread, to gather all comments and try to find out a solution; please post your BD feedback there, thanks!