poita, why don't you make a capture test of your MUSE laserdisc?
Just to evalutate the resolution and the (eventual) compression artifacts of MUSE.
I agree with dvdmike, a really exiging thing! If only I have a MUSE decoder...
I have three copies of the italian PAL laserdisc of "La Morte ti fà Bella" (Death Becomes Her), so probably a restoration could be done with good results.
I have also "Dr. Giggles", just one NTSC copy, I'm afraid... (^^,)
I'm waiting to know if there are better sources around, because I love DBH!
Papai, when I'm wrong, I apologize, also with my friends... and yes, thanks to your help, I avoided two or more days of futile conversion...
I've redone the same clip, this time only using ONE capture... if you could still see those lines, it's clearly NOT in the median process... here you are the link
But, if you could still see those lines in this clip, but NOT in the single capture at original resolution, the problem lies in the denoise script... strange, because I used the same script, verbatim, for both JP2 and these clips...
Papai, you were right, I was wrong... please accept my apologies!
It seems that I messed up the addborders line, adding twice it...
Well, here you are the correct clip #2: sendspace
To be forgiven, choose 40-60 seconds of footage for test clip #3!
Thanks to ilovewaterslides; he sent me the french laserdisc soundtrack, and I've just finished to sync it!
This is the same footage of clip #1, but this time it's the untouched PAL italian capture, taken with DVL-909 via S-Video; take a look at it and let me know what do you think: http://www.sendspace.com/file/ht3ehk (39MB)
Papai2013 said:
Yes, try to reduce the noise reduction to the level of JP[rules] version!
...
So don't worry, we will wait. Just take your time and try to do a less aggressive "video noise reduction" next time.
Actually, I used the very same script used to upscale and denoise JP1...
Also, see if you can find a better video source (preferably PAL) from a friend or someone around. But if PAL is like this, look at NTSC as the next best option. An NTSC CAV disc perhaps. Is the AC3 LD a CAV one or CLV? The DTS is surely CLV. And you can use Tranzor's Japanese LD video as well if it has better quality.
The THX certified Laserdiscs have better quality, even if they are NTSC, try to make some captures of the Video fro the NTSC THX discs (both DTS and AC3) and see which looks better compared to the PAL one. And do as little noise reduction as possible, without sacrificing much detail, unlike what happened with the PAL video.
I'll try, but my IVTC skill is below zero...
Also, I noticed in the second video, the aspect ratio is much shorter in height than what 1.85:1 should be on a 16:9 screen.
???
1280/1.85=681.89... clip #2 has an height of 682 pixels... as clip #1...
Jetrell Fo said:
I checked out the first clip. The video looks a little hazy in the earth-tones and to be dnr'd a bit ....
What about the second one? What do you think about the DTS and AC3 soundtracks? It will be interesting to make a comparison of JP1 and JP2 DTS soundtracks, laserdisc Vs theatrical...
I posted a second test clip at the end of the first post; this time I added also DTS and AC3 sounds; I wrongly calculated the lenght of the PAL video, so audio is shorter, but this is only a test clip, after all...
I used the same settings of JP [ruLes] for video; feedbacks about both video and audio quality are welcome!
DTS and AC3 soundtracks are ready; video is processing.
Meanwhile, I've added a test clip at the end of the first post: check it out!
tranzor said:
...PILF-2560
back in the day there was a rumor that the theatrical Japanese version of the film was a bit bloodier than the standard theatrical in the US. The Japanese LD was also supposed to have had this cut of the film but it was all false rumors. Still the picture looks very nice
I'm sure the picture quality is good, but I've made comparison between the PAL italian and NTSC US DTS and AC3, and the PAL is better, as it has 20% more vertical resolution; the japanese LD picture, even if it could have a better quality than US, have the same vertical resolution.
Thanks for the offer, if you have any other laserdisc that you like to use for a preservation project, send me a P.M.
Audio processing is (almost) over; italian PCM and english DTS and AC3 are ready; only english PCM is missing - don't know if/or preserve analog soundtrack, though...
tranzor said:
understood, but if you ever find (for whatever reason) a need in your project for the Japanese disc, let me know because I have it
Which version (reference nr.) have you?
...than most of the DVD - and few BD, as I read also in these forum. I don't want to talk about MUSE laserdisc audio now, because I'm not expert in that branch, but whoever wants to talk about it, is welcome!
OK, let's start!
NTSC laserdiscs could contain a different combination of soundtracks:
I'm pretty sure there is no AC3 laserdisc with two mono digital soundtracks, as PCM is used for stereo (surround) soundtrack, and almost sure there is no DTS laserdisc with two mono analog soundtracks, as analog is used for stereo (surround) soundtrack, but I'm sure there is NO laserdisc that contain both DTS and AC3 soundtracks!
Things are easier for PAL laserdiscs:
The PAL laservision is practically another standard, as PAL laserdisc video could be watched on old laservision player, but digital soundtracks could not be heard! The contrary is usually not true, as the most part of the PAL laserdisc players could also play analog soundtracks. There is NO AC3 PAL laserdisc!
Now, let's take a closer look at the different soundtrack types.
ANALOG
Albeit analog soundtrack on laserdisc is the worst of the possible ones that could be found on it, the quality is pretty good - here you are some numbers:
Not that bad, uh? Better than vynil, audio cassette, second only to VHS HiFi Stereo. It could contain also surround sound; some concerts could be found only on analog laserdiscs, as they are never released with digital audio; the most part of japanese bilingual laserdiscs have the japanese language recorded onto the analog soundtrack... why? Maybe because it sounds better? The answer is yours...
PCM (Pulse Code Modulation)
The first (and most used) digital soundtrack that appeared on the laserdisc format was PCM, stereo or dual mono, 16bit 44.1KHz 1441kbps - it has the same technical specifications and quality of the CD-audio, but it was available years before it!
All the PAL laserdiscs after the end of 1980's have digital audio; NTSC continued to have both analog and digital soundtrack, as the standard allowed it; several surround types could be found on laserdisc, not only the famous Dolby Surround, but also DTS Surround and CHACE surround.
AC3 (Dolby Digital)
The first AC3 laserdisc was "Clear and Present Danger" and was released in 1995; the AC3 soundtrack is stored in the right analog channel, and is RF modulated; to be decoded, a laserdisc player with the AC3 RF output is needed, and must be connected to an RF demodulator and a Dolby Digital decoder, or to an amplifier with built-in RF demodulator and DD decoder.
The AC3 soundtrack has always the 384kbps bitrate at 48KHz, almost always 20bit 5.1 channels, but in some (rare) cases the number of channels could vary - usually during extra material like making of, documentary etc.
I found no proof (until now), but there are evidences that the theatrical mixes are used for AC3 laserdisc soundtracks "as is"; infact, many argue that laserdisc Dolby Digital sounds better than the DVD counterpart, also if the latter has an higher bitrate; infact, most DVD DD soundtracks are mixed taking in account home users, and they should sound good with any kind of audio configuration, and hence it's a sort of compromise, while the laserdisc has that "in your face" sound typical of theaters.
Someone could think that is not possible, as the theatrical AC3 soundtrack is 320kbps, while laserdisc has 384kbps... think that the LD AC3 is stored on analog form, and surely the signal contains some sort of stronger error correction, due to the fact that analog reading is not perfect; also, it is possible that the signal is simply padded from 320kbps to 384kbps, as it was more economic to take the theatrical mix and copy to laserdisc than remake a home version...
DTS (Digital Theater System)
The first DTS laserdisc was "Jurassic Park" and was released in 1997; DTS soundtrack takes the place of the PCM soundtrack, leaving free two analog tracks, (almost) always used for the movie soundtrack, allowing the owner of an old analog-only player, or who has not a DTS decoder, to listen to it. To be decoded, a laserdisc player with digital output is needed, and a DTS decoder, or an amplifier with built-in DTS decoder.
As the DTS soundtrack are in place of the PCM one, it has the same technical data, 16bit 44.1KHz 1441kbps but, at the contrary of the PCM two channels, it has 5.1 discrete channels.
The laserdisc DTS soundtrack IS NOT the same of the theatrical one: infact, in theaters, DTS uses a different codec, APT-X, encoded as ADPCM at 882kbps and recorded on CD-ROMs, with a compression of 4:1, while DTS on laserdisc uses Coherent Acoustics perceptual coding compression scheme, encoded at 20bit 44.1KHz with a bitrate of 1235kbps (padded to 1441kbps to be the same of PCM soundtracks) and a compression of 3:1. Hence, the DTS laserdiscs should be better than the theatrical DTS, as the home codec is newer and better, and bitrate higher with less compression.
As almost all DTS DVD have the so-called "half bitrate" soundtracks (754kbps padded to 768kbps) instead of full bitrate (1509kbps padded to 1536kbps), the laserdisc DTS soundtracks is always better than "half bitrate" DTS DVD; in some cases, could be preferable to full-bitrate DTS DVD due to different mixes used.
CONCLUSIONS
Using a laserdisc soundtrack for preservation purposes is often a good choice; when the DVD or BD soundtracks are of low quality, or technically inferior, or "improved"; when the DVD or BD soundtracks have different formats; when the DVD or BD have no soundtrack in a certain language; or, simply, when there are no DVD or BD of a certain title or version at all!
There is only a price to pay: capturing and converting laserdisc soundtracks is an HARD task... but really rewarding! - just finished JP2 AC3 and DTS, I know what I'm talking about... (^^,)
It's time to update this topic... I'm just doing the DTS soundtrack - taken from laserdisc, obviously - of "The Lost World: Jurassic Park", and it's awesome also on hearphones...
Whoever is interested in the JP1 (released) and JP2 (available soon) DTS soundtrack, is free to extract them from the BD version. Don't know for sure if they match 100% with DVD or BD video, though!
Video Collector said:
_,,,^..^,,,_ said:
Papai, thanks for your support!
nickdiba, thank you too for the support, and for seeding my project files...
As it seems there is some interest, I think I'll do JP2 next... what do you all think?
Yes! The Lost World. Now!
I'm working thoroughly on it right now... maybe it's better be eaten alive by a T-Rex than do this kind of work... I'm going to ask it to Gennaro... (^^,)
poita, I'm sorry there is no MUSE version of "The Lost World"; here you are a list of all MUSE laserdiscs released; anyway, if someone will borrow you the MUSE disc of "Jurassic Park", I'm interested to obtain the capture...
I strongly reccomend to start a MUSE thread, because you are one of the few with MUSE player, decoder, and a high-def capture card! What luck!
I finished to capture everything; aligned the three italian captures perfectly for the median process; still working on audio parts.
tranzor said:
Ahhh. Thanks for the info. Curious is the Japanese LD release for the Lost world needed for this project at all? For what I can recall thought it had a better looking picture than the US LD version
I don't know if the japanese NTSC version of JP2 is better than the US NTSC... as I have not it, I couldn't use it into my project; but, as PAL has better resolution, I decided to use the italian laserdisc for the video part.
Papai2013 said:
In JP2 PAL disc, by "cut" I assume you are talking about a stop without fade rather than the end of the scene cut out, right?
Yes, a straight cut.
Captures are going on... I finished the three PAL captures and the DTS one; I'll do today the AC3 and the english PCM ones...
Papai2013 said:
The PAL disks fade out at the end of a disk, and fade in on the other end. The NTSC discs don't, hence the NTSC ones are used in those particular scenes.
Papai was right, as he was referring to what I've written in the first post, in the project info: this is true for JP1, but not for JP2... infact, during the JP2 captures, I noted that the PAL laserdisc this time has not fades in/out, but just a cut, so there is no need for NTSC video - I updated the first post to reflect this.
Its all explained by the undertaker...
Didn't know I was a funeral director... or am I a WWE fighter? (^^,)
First capture done! PAL italian laserdisc, three sides, 0 dropped frames, 0 inserted frames! Tomorrow I'll do the next captures.
_,,,^..^,,,_ presents the JP2 [ruLes] project
The Lost World: Jurassic Park restored using Laserdisc editions
Project mission: restore The Lost World: Jurassic Park using audio and video from various Laserdisc editions.
Video sources: analog video captured directly from Laserdiscs.
Audio sources: uncompressed PCM, AC3 and DTS soundtracks captured directly from Laserdiscs.
Subtitles sources: Based on Blu-Ray commercial release.
Project prohibition: to use DVD, BD, DVB, HDTV or any other audio or video from any digital sources.
Supplemental material: maybe will be released in a future version.
JP2 [ruLes]
Source Material
Video: laserdiscs
Audio: laserdiscs
Subtitles: english (full), italian and french (full and forced).
Capture setup & processing info
Hardware:
Software:
Settings:
Project status: RELEASED - you could find it on myspleen
Captures:
I finally decided to use the DTS NTSC laserdisc for video, as it seems that PAL laserdisc is only a NTSC-to-PAL conversion and has some issues. For audio, I captured the italian soundtrack from the PAL laserdisc, the english DTS soundtrack from the DTS NTSC laserdisc, and the AC3 soundtrack from the AC3 NTSC laserdisc via the RF demodulator.
Video treatment:
whole video is from the DTS NTSC laserdisc; derainbowing, little noise reduction (new script used, less aggressive) and sharpen; no color correction, only levels are adjusted minimally - saturation, brightness and contrast; upconversion from NTSC 720x480 4:3 to 1280x720 16:9.
Video tracks:
Audio treatment:
the original soundtracks are: U.S. laserdisc DTS THX 16bit 44.1KHz 1441kbps 5.1 discrete surround in english; U.S. laserdisc AC3 THX 16bit 48KHz 384kbps 5.1 discrete surround in english; PAL laserdiscs for italian and french, PCM 16bit 44.1KHz 1441kbps stereo, Dolby Surround encoded.
All the soundtracks will be converted only when necessary; from PAL 25fps to 23.976fps (pitch corrected); from 44.1KHz to 48KHz.
BD Audio tracks:
Subtitles: based on the commercial Blu-Ray; SRT format, english full, italian (literal, transcripted from dialogs) and french full and forced.
Final formats:
Jobs to do for the next version:
To do later (maybe):
Credits:
Self comments: This is the companion project of Jurassic Park [ruLes]; altough I have not JP2 captures from BD to make comparisons, I'm pretty sure JP2 is like JP1, so probably its picture is cropped more than the laserdisc, and the colors are different too.
Test clip (50MB, 40 secs., 1280x720 1.85:1 23.976fps, X264 @8mbps, DTS & AC3): sendspace
pittrek said:
Is there any chance for either mkv files or DVDs ?
As I wrote, to make an MPEG2 file (to use for DVD) I need an MPEG2 encoder, as my spare PC has not one... if someone is aware of a free, open source MPEG2 encoder that could be used with VirtualDub, post a link here please!
About mkv: m2ts files, the ones used in AVCHD and BD, could be read by a PC, like a mks file... so, I think it's useless to release a mvk version, as it will have the same content, in a different container...
Yesterday (friday the 17th, a unlucky day in Italy) my main computer decided to not work anymore... maybe is only the video card - I hope so...
As I had a day off, I planned to start a new restoration project, but, as most if not all of my avisynth scripts are there, and I'm to lazy to open the case (buried under a pile of laserdisc players...) to take off the HDs, I switched on his "big brother" (the PC I'm working on right now) and I took a look at some half-done projects...
I retrieved the 1997 SE featurettes captured from the UK, german and french PAL laserdiscs, so... let's work with them, I said myself!
At the end, I have now the three featurettes, related to episodes IV, V and VI, joined together as they were in the UK PAL lasedisc boxset, but I've added some missing frames taken from the french laserdisc (luckily, without subtitles and in english...); I included audio soundtracks in english and german (this is 99.5% accurate, as I've added around 4 seconds of the english audio to match the lenght); subtitles in french and italian - copied from the hard subs - must be added... any volunteer? (,**)
If someone is interested in this, post your comment here - I've thought to release it at 720p (960x720 4:3 inside a 1280x720 frame) 25fps AVCHD - along with the usual noise reduction, to match my SET project, but maybe someone could be interested in SD MPEG2 files, to make a PAL DVD - in this case, let me know about a free, open source MPEG2 encoder to use with virtualdub...
Memorex said:
Would be cool to see some comparison shots to other versions, especially the cropping!
Here you are: SendSpace (69MB)
Top 3D BD taken from Youtube, bottom JP [ruLes].
Video Collector said:
Yes! The Lost World. Now!
Yes, sir! On the double, sir! Right away, sir! Aye, aye, sir! (^^,)
...well, let me do the captures first! Maybe next week it will be done, but don't forget to add another week for the downloading... (++n)
Leonardo, you are welcome!
Credit for the subs is really appreciated! (^^,)
Also, any volunteer for the last and the next project? Jurassic Park 1 & 2 need french literal subs ASAP; then german and spanish, if I'll find the PCM laserdisc soundtracks.
I updated the project with the italian literal subtitles of Jurassic Park.
The link is always the same: http://amanuenses.pastebay.com/
stretch009 said:
What about the JP AVCHD?
It will be released soon...
_,,,^..^,,,_ said:
By the way, EP6 on the PAL UK laserdisc boxset is the extended version, and include a prologue by Leonard Nimoy... IIRC the latter was not available on BD, right?
I quote myself (!) because I wrongly wrote that the prologue by Leonard Nimoy was included in EP6, while it was before EP4; plus, EP4 PAL laserdisc has also a four-minute so called "european prologue", that could be not available in US editions (I need confirmation about it); if it's true, then EP4 and EP6 on (PAL) laserdiscs are different from the blu-ray editions, and (may) worth a restoration...