sherlockpotter

Well, think of storytelling like a bell curve. The story should build to a peak, at which point the tension is released, and then we have a denouement. For this Lando scene, what’s the peak? What’s the moment at which the tension (i.e. the uncertainty of who this person is) is resolved? Is it when they walk into Lando’s cabin? Or is when they actually reveal that it’s Lando?

So yes, honestly, those few seconds make a hell of a lot of difference when trying to tell a story. With that line, the tension is released as soon as he tells us that he’s Leia’s friend. Oh, and by the way, it’s Lando. You cut the tension during the buildup of the tension. It’s just blatantly bad storytelling. It trips over itself and manages to undercut both the reveal that this person is trustworthy, and that it’s Lando.

Imagine if Obi-Wan appeared to Luke in Empire as he’s making his way through Cloud City, and tells Luke, “By the way, you’re related to Darth Vader.” Only a few seconds, but it would destroy the reveal, wouldn’t it?

Who cares that he killed a stormtrooper? DJ helped them escape prison in the last movie; did that make him trustworthy?

Again, it’s great that you’re trying to track the past twenty years of these character’s lives; but I personally think we should be trying to tell a good story here, not just string together a bunch of Star Wars imagery.

To respond to below:

Jar Jar Bricks said:

I guess I dont really care about the specifics of filmmaking. All I care about is having the characters and lore make sense.

I would argue the tension is released when the stormtrooper is killed. Who the guy is after that shouldn’t keep the audience concerned.

The problem is, this is, first and foremost, a film. If we sacrifice basic storytelling constructs for the sake of Wookieepedia facts, then this turns into a dull, lifeless excuse for Star Wars fan service. But it’s not; it’s a story. Let’s treat it as such.

And if you honestly don’t think the film is “trying” to build to the Lando reveal, then I really don’t know what to tell you, bud.

But again, character motivation is shot in the foot in your *interpretation* too. You’d have Lando travel who knows how far just to find them in the nick of time, and then wander away after six lines of exposition rather than doing anything to actually help them on their quest? (More than just something that could be put in an email.)

EDIT: Put it this way, your focus is on handwaving something that may-or-may-not have happened over the past twenty years. I don’t care about that. Let’s focus on the story now, and what the characters are doing now. What works best for the story we’re actually trying to tell?

Damn it, Jar Jar! I had finally convinced Hal to use one of my own ideas! Haha

The way I see it, if Lando went there exclusively to help Rey & Co., it wouldn’t make sense for him to immediately abandon them again as soon as he tells them about ye olde clown Ochi. Why wouldn’t he at least help them get to the ship? Distract the First Order? Anything?? Why’d he bother coming at all? Just send a holo-message to them on the Falcon and save yourself the trip. It’s dumb.

But more importantly - as I’ve said before - we also have to consider dramatic tension, not just what the Wiki says are the dry facts of the mission. (And the Wiki says he was already on Pasaana anyway, soo…aha?) It’s better storytelling if we don’t know whether or not to trust Crossbow Man until he reveals his identity. If he tells us, “It’s okay, I’m a friend of Leia’s!” Then there goes any sense of suspense. Oh, it’s just Lando…Great.

Besides, removing the line doesn’t mean Leia didn’t send him a text. It wouldn’t contradict anything in your headcannon; it would just make the storytelling more impactful.

DominicCobb said:

NeverarGreat said:

Sure you could do all that, but if you draw even more attention to that problem people will wonder even more why the Falcon couldn’t just hover down to land like it does any other time. The SFX shot would have to convey that the blast hit a repulsorlift, making the Falcon lose altitude in that shot before limping out of the hangar.

Poe’s line about the landing gear and the shot of Rey opening a wire panel are both so brief that they’re hard to register, so when you see the image of the crash landing you’re kinda like “what?” Literally anything that would show it visually take damage would work.

Not only that, but those shots aren’t even the focus of the scene; the focus is on Rey, so it’s even more distracting. I think RogueLeader has a good idea - just comp in an extra explosion effect as they’re firing. There are a lot of places it could be added:

• As they’re firing on the ship en masse
• In the closeup shot of the Falcon’s engines
• When Rey dives for the ramp
• When the Falcon peels away

Maybe it could even be a large-ish explosion effect, as if someone fired a rocket launcher at the ship?

Also, I just noticed - The troopers are firing at the ship, they all get pushed backward and fall over from the Falcon’s exhaust, and then when Poe says, “Finn, move fast!” more troopers are firing on the Falcon from off screen. But then the very next shot shows that they’re all still knocked down and no one is firing. I can’t imagine we’d be able to fix that, but it’s another fun little continuity error.

DZ-330 said:

DominicCobb said:

I like the idea of adding connecting shots like that, but I think the transition with the wayfinder works really well as is.

Something I suggested earlier in this thread:

List of space/ships shots that could hopefully be made by someone with WAY more skills than me:

• Space shot of Ochi’s ship approaching Kimji
• Shot of Rey in Ren’s TIE leaving Endor
• Shot of Rey in Ren’s TIE approaching Anch-To
• Shot of the Falcon leaving Endor and approaching Ajan Kloss
• Rey taking Luke’s X-Wing and leaving Anch-To in space
• A tease of Vader’s TIE leaving Endor
• The Falcon in space approaching Tatooine

Those would be really cool! Maybe even adding a few “ship landing” shots?

• Kylo landing on Exegol
• Falcon landing on Pasaana
• Ochi’s ship landing on Kijimi
• Kylo landing on Kijimi

I saw a review that pointed out how the rushed pacing isn’t helped by the lack of landings in the film - the ship approaches a planet, and the characters are immediately walking around in the next shot, halfway to their goal. Now I can’t unsee it.

Finn’s line was already there. The only changes I made were cutting the Lando line and adding the Poe line. (I wasn’t sure about the latter, but I wanted to try to emphasize the uncertainty a little more. I did also tweak the volume levels to make “You with” more balanced against “The Resistance.”)

Sorry for the confusion with the trooper! I meant to cut that first part out of the timeline for this test, but…oh well.

EDIT: Same test, but only the relevant bits included. Sorry, everyone: https://streamable.com/sgsiln

Oh shoot, I’m sorry, the bit with cutting out the trooper was just an old test I did (that was vetoed). I just used the same timeline since the clips were already set up.

The main thing I’m obsessing over suggesting now is after that, when they get to the hideout, just to cut out Lando’s ADR line that “Leia sent me a message.” I also tried it with inserting Poe’s line “You with the Resistance?” (Again, just to draw out the reveal of whether or not the guy can really be trusted.)

Burbin said:

I think I see Hal’s intent with the new shot and I think it works. On the opening shot we see the TIEs are a ways off from the planet, so having an ‘establishing shot’, as I refered to it, of the surface allows some inferred time for the TIEs to actually reach the planet, then we can cut back to them. It’s a nice transition from ‘TIEs on space’ to ‘TIEs on the surface’, plus it’s a really pretty and striking shot that would be obscured with TIEs flying around.

Oh okay, yeah, I can see what you’re going for now. Although I’d personally still like some ship noises to fade in near the end of the shot to help bridge the shots together. (As if the ships are getting closer to the planet now.)

And Hal, like I said, my main intent wasn’t for tying up lose ends (although that’s an added benefit); I was going for a better sense of dramatic flow - save the reveal that he can be trusted until the reveal of who the character actually is. If you show him to be trustworthy, and then show that he’s Lando, I think that both reveals undercut one another, rather than compliment each other.

On the topic of dramatic flow, did anyone have any thoughts regarding my Rey Death Sequence restructure - having her die immediately after defeating Palpatine, and then saving her resurrection until after Finn and Jannah are rescued?

The problem is, he does just chill there. He basically says, “Good luck facing the First Order on your own! I’m too old to help, and my knee is acting up again.” If Leia asks him to help them, why doesn’t he help them get to the ship? He just slinks back off into the background. If he just steps in of his own accord, and only does so because he recognizes Chewie, I think that makes a lot more sense.

EDIT: Ooh, another issue with the “Transmission” line: “Give Leia my love.” “You should give it to her yourself.” “Oh hey, that’s a great idea! [Calls Leia back] Hey girl, I love you! Don’t die until I get there! Haha.”

Like I said before though, my biggest reason for cutting the line, from a storytelling perspective, is just to stretch out the tension until we reveal that it’s Lando. Otherwise, the tension is deflated as soon as we learn “Oh, he’s a friend of Leia’s? I guess we can trust him then… Oh, it’s Lando. That’s nice.”

DominicCobb said:

sherlockpotter said:

I mean, yeah, I still don’t understand why Luke abandoned him on Pasaana. But I don’t see how this line explains that? All this line tells us is that Leia and Lando are in communication, which just adds more layers of convolution, imo.

Like I said though, if we could flesh out the scene to give Lando some actual development, that would be swell; but that’s a separate issue from this one line.

There’s nothing in the film to suggest he’s been there the whole time. The transmission implies he headed over there when he heard they needed help.

Huh, that would make sense, but that wasn’t my takeaway at all. My impression was that Leia contacted Lando because he was there, not the other way around. Otherwise, where’s he been during this whole stupid war? Where was he in TLJ when the entire Resistance was established to be on the one cruiser? How does he already have a little hideout all set up, complete with getaway driver?

Plus, if he came to Pasaana just to help them, why does he immediately abandon them to find Ochi’s ship and escape the incoming stormtroopers on their own? He came to tell them, “There’s a ship nearby!” and wander off somewhere? They couldn’t do that via hologram message? (Wait, could we make Lando a hologram? No joke, that would clear this all up.)

I guess a different angle to take it would be to change his line to say something like, “Leia asked me to meet you here.” But…I don’t know. The context of the situation, with him saying immediately afterwards, “Oh no, I’m too old to fly off and help you guys”…why would he say that immediately after flying all of this way to help them? I think the scene implies that he’s already on the planet…for some dumb reason.

Here’s a quick example I put together: https://streamable.com/ypyjk6

EDIT: Regarding the opening, where did we stand on the Burbin version? Add the TIEs into the lava shot, go directly to the forest shot, and just have Vader’s castle in the background?

I mean, yeah, I still don’t understand why Luke abandoned him on Pasaana. But I don’t see how this line explains that? All this line tells us is that Leia and Lando are in communication, which just adds more layers of convolution, imo.

Like I said though, if we could flesh out the scene to give Lando some actual development, that would be swell; but that’s a separate issue from this one line.

EDIT: Half-agree with Dom. I don’t think it should replace the forest shot, but I do think that it doesn’t flow well and should be cut if we’re not going to include the TIEs with the lava shot.

sidshady12 said:

Is there anything else though in the meantime to discuss, test shots, etc?

I did have two other changes I’ve been tossing around in my head:

1. Slightly reconstructing Rey’s death. The original cut is a little awkward, I think - There’s a lot of “character is in danger, character is immediately saved” going on, which doesn’t leave much in the way of tension. I thought it might work a little better if we move Rey’s death to immediately after she defeats Palpy. Plus, this flows better conceptually, as it’s more apparent that the effort of facing Palpy killed her; unlike in the theatrical, where she pulls a Leia and just decides, “Whelp, guess now’s the most dramatically relevant time to die!”

It also means that the audience has to wait longer for her to be saved, which would help to raise the suspense of her revival. Plus, it gives a nice bittersweet undercurrent to Poe’s celebrations; and it also slows down the pacing a little bit more, effectively giving us a chance to “exhale” after Palpy is defeated, before we get to even more ship explosions. I’m thinking a fade to black on Rey’s body, a brief pause as the music cue rounds out, then come back in with Jannah and Finn blowing up the ship. Lando rescues them, then cut back to Rey, still lying on the ground. The shots of Finn reacting to her death could be moved to while Ben is holding her, so it’s like the two of them are mourning Rey together.

2. Removing Lando’s line about “Leia sent me a transmission.” If we cut that line, it would increase the tension in that moment, as the audience wouldn’t know until he removes his mask if this weirdo with the crossbow can be trusted. There are also some really awkward implications to the line when you think about it, such as:

• If Leia knew Lando was here, why didn’t she mention him to Rey & Co.?
• If Lando is in communication with Leia, why hasn’t he been helping out in the war so far? What’s so important about this desert wasteland? Get off your butt, leave your retirement behind, and get involved! There’ll be plenty of pig people to pork when you get back!

(On that note, I wonder if it would be possible to tweak the scene to draw out the fact that Rey has to push him to come back, or that Lando is only just now learning that the First Order actually represents a significant threat beyond a few random stormtroopers. Some more pauses, a slightly tweaked music cue, a sigh of defeat…; it would mirror the larger idea that the galaxy is starting to be inspired again by Jedi like Luke and Rey.

But the scene is so rushed anyway, I doubt there’s enough there to make that work.)

If we need something to fill the gap from removing Lando’s line, we could add in Poe’s line “You with the Resistance?” from TFA.

Atom-88 said:

This may seem like a really stupid question and maybe I have missed something along the way but here we go, Kylo is looking for the wayfinder on mustafar where Vader’s castle is also located right but wouldn’t you expect the wayfinder to be hidden in Vader’s castle and not out his back somewhere?.
I know it may seem like a bit of a stupid question but only just really thought of this lol.

I’m pretty sure MR is incorporating something like this in his edit.

Hal 9000 said:

I can add the TIE sound coming in softly at the tail end of the lava shot but I don’t want it to draw your attention.

I see the lava shot as similar to a shot in ROTS of an eruption (the one from the trailer). It’s super brief and may not be immediately connected to the location where the characters are. It just sets the environment very quickly.

To be perfectly honest, that eruption has always disoriented me, even as a kid watching Ep. III. It completely throws off my sense of geography. What just happened? Where is this happening? Where are the characters in relation to it? Is it nearby? Far away? What’s the connection? It just doesn’t make sense when trying to track the scene in my mind. I really don’t think that’s what we should be shooting for - we should do what’s most intelligible to the average audience member.

Like I said, the important thing about the sequence shouldn’t be “Oh look, there’s lava on this planet. That’s neat-o.” The focus should be on the ships flying down to the planet. The lava in the background just adds to the immersion.

The way I see it playing out in my head - the whole time, we’d be tracking the TIEs down to surface level. For those who think the shots feel disjointed, I think that would “tie” (pun intended) the three together; because yeah, if it’s a shot of the ships, a random shot of some lava, and then back to shots of the ships, I agree that feels awkward.

To put it another way, if I were Joe YouTube Critic watching this scene, I would be thinking, “Wait, what’s with the lava? How is that related to this castle thingy?” If we include the ships in the lava shot, then they become the connection. As far as the story itself is concerned, the point of the sequence isn’t “Lava!”; it’s the TIEs making their way down to the forest. Lava, castle…whatever landscape they fly over, it’s all window dressing.

The sound’s one part of that. Ideally, we would be able to comp in the fighters themselves. I also suggested earlier that it might look cool to just see their shadows flying over the surface of the planet, to imply that they’re still pretty high up at that point - and it would also help to make the shot more visually distinct from the other two flyovers, and therefore less “tedious”; but I’m not sure how the shadows will look in practice.

Pretty much, yeah. Unless it’s already there and I’m somehow missing it? I just hear lava, mainly. I feel like I should hear the TIEs flying overhead, crossing the frame, and moving away.

This is a quick example (I’ve also incorporated Nev’s newest grade so that people can see it in action - nice work, man!): https://vimeo.com/529886419

Agree with Burbin, the shot before and the shot after have you focusing on the left of the frame, so this one should too. And like sidshady12 points out, the continuation of the trees makes more sense if it’s on the right of the frame, rather than the left.

I do really like the lava shot - it feels like the most definitive way of establishing “This is Mustafar” to me. I like Vader’s castle too, so I don’t have a strong preference which one (or both) is included. The only thing I feel strongly about is that the forest should should be there. It’s our main anchor into the Kylo Rampage shot.

EDIT: Nice job with the new coloring, Hal! The only thing that’s missing for me is the sound of the TIEs panning left to right across the audio channels. 😉

He also lied and spread false intel to the Rebels that Death Star 2.0 wasn’t operational. And then he started boasting to Luke that “I lied! We’re up and running! *pew pew pew*!”

Yeah, it would have to be new dialogue. Although I don’t know if any lines like that already exist.

EDIT: I guess, yeah, it doesn’t change the internal journey Rey goes on to renounce the Dark Side; but I feel like I’d still be a little disappointed, as an audience member, if I just watched all of that and then Palps was like, “Ha! Psych!” A good twist should recontextualize everything we’ve already seen, and I’m not sure that this one would.

nluckett said:

If I made some edits, whats the best way to share them?

I trimmed all the bits of Rey and Leia talking. Not only eliminating some odd performances, but also clarifying things (at least to me).

Now when Rey comes back from her training session it goes (Im paraphrasing)

• Didnt finish the training course, got distracted
• I know it looks like Im making excuses…
• Leia looks at Rey
• Rey hands back saber
• from offscreen, “General” line comes in
• Then Leia delivers her line “Dont tell me what things look like, tell me what they are.”
• Then Leia walks off and Rey says “Yes master”
• No lines about droids or being tired.
• Nothing about earning the saber. Clearly Leia is the one holding onto the saber most of the time as Rey hands it back to her twice.

I also removed the entire sequence of Finn asking Rose if she wants to come. It’s established that she is accustomed to working behind pipes, not one to go running around blasting people. Felt unnecessary.

I trimmed the best I could the Nambi Gima scene so that right after Rey says “I’m Ray” she hears cannon blasts and turns away.

Trimmed out Rey and Finn being surprised Poe can hotwire. They’ve been running together for awhile now, they shouldn’t be surprised by this.

When the crew meets Zorii, I trimmed it down so Zorri doesnt say she likes Rey. Instead they have a stare down, then Rey extends her hand in friendship.

Added a flash of Chewy when Rey realizes he’s alive. She has visions all the time, felt like a more impactful way to show the audience instead of just telling.

Removed Ren talking about them being a Dyad. Now, Palpatine realizes it himself at the end. The puzzle of why the are so connected is held until the final climactic moment now.

When Jannah and Finn are talking, I cut it right after Finn says his code number and Jannah goes “you?!”. To me this hints that she had heard of him, like how Rose had heard of him in the previous movie.

Trimmed some of Mas Canadas lines about Leia to make it a little less on the nose.

Trimmed a little bit of Luke’s dialogue to Rey.

Probably a few other little things, but wondered if anyone wanted to watch and see if any of these would make it into a final cut. I didnt know how to get proper audio splits, so that was my biggest issue.

Those are really interesting ideas, I’d love to check them out! Most test clips are either uploaded to Vimeo or to Google Drive. I also use Streamable if I’m just mocking up something quickly and want to dump it somewhere without worrying about an account.

Burbin said:

Even though I helped dim the castle lights, I’ve never been a fan of that castle shot, I agree that it’s slightly off in execution, but I’m also not a fan of it in principle. Because the castle is not really relevant to the sequence so I don’t think it should be highlighted front and center, MR’s castle in the background shot alone works far better imo just as a small cameo.

So I think the best sequence might be to only have the other two shots: TIEs flying towards red lava planet > Establishing shot of the planets surface, revealing a forest growing amidst the lava > The TIEs, now descended to the surface, fly over the forest > cut to Kylo on the surface of said forest.

Those are fair points, Burbin. Arguably, the most important thing about the castle is that it helps to re-establish this as Mustafar. Personally, when I think of the planet, I think of the lava flows from Ep. III, not the castle from RO.

I’d definitely be interested in Burbin’s implementation, using the Castle in the background as MR did. But I do still want some TIEs to be included in the lava shot. Either as a full fly-over or as a shadow.

I also think the color would have to change though to go directly from lava to forest, maybe make the lava scene a little brighter and less shadowy? Otherwise I think the difference in geography will be too jarring.

Yeah, so like I was saying, what would people feel about making the whole “Palpatine Granddaughter” angle a lie to lure Rey to Exegol? I’m not sure about it…I’m worried that I might cheapen Rey’s internal struggle in this movie, but it might be a direction worth pursuing.

The more I think about it, I still think the best option is just to ignore Rey’s parentage entirely, and focus on her personal struggles between the Dark and the Light.

TestingOutTheTest said:

Palpatine did want Rey to come to Exegol, but her parents abandoned her and now he doesn’t know where she is, so he turns to Ben Solo because he does know where he is, and turns him to the dark side — he wants the blood descendant of the Skywalkers to perform the Sith ritual so he would possess his body. Palpatine tells Kylo to kill Rey because at this point he no longer has any use for her and Kylo is already this far into the dark side, it is too late to possess Rey at this point.

Um…what? None of that is established in the movie. And why not just possess Kylo if “he wants the blood descendant of the Skywalkers to perform the Sith ritual”?

Hux does not betray the First Order altogether, he sent in the information so Kylo Ren would lose. Unless you’re referring to, “I don’t care if you guys win,” Hux is just saying that so Finn and Poe wouldn’t kill him.

Oh shoot, I didn’t realize we could just arbitrarily decide when the script is lying to us or not. Cool beans.

In that case, I declare that Palps was lying to Kylo when he said that Rey is his granddaughter. Rey Palpatine is officially no longer canon!

But in all honestly, is there any way to make Palps say “I was lying when I said you were a Palpatine. I just needed to lure you here…”? That would be a clever angle to take the film, having Palps’s plan make sense, without ret-conning TLJ.

Yeah, the tricky thing is, the forest shot is the most relevant one to this film. There’s no (obvious) lava where Kylo starts a-killin’, so I think it would feel weird to go from high contrast, burning, molten lava to brightly lit trees.

Breaking up the shots with Vader’s Castle actually works for me. I dunno.

Hmm…I’d rather not remove the last pure forest shot, Nev. That’s the main establishing shot for this particular location. I think it’ll feel really weird if it’s a dark, dingy lava plane, and then all of a sudden *poof!* Kylo is killing people in this bright, orangey, pinky forest.

That one shot is the one that sells the entire sequence to me.

That’s why I think it would be good to imply that the TIEs are nearby in the new shot, but they aren’t close enough yet to be seen. Then it would feel like they’re still traveling to different parts of the planet, but they haven’t reached ground level yet.

RogueLeader said:

From a fan-editing perspective, I feel like I see two strong directions people tend to lean in.

1. People who want to keep the gist of how TROS played. Just try to improve the movie that is there, even if you don’t agree with every decision.

2. People who liked TLJ tend to hard disagree with TROS’ story decisions more, so they have a stronger inclination to change the film more drastically.

I’m definitely in the second camp myself; but TROS just fails as its own movie, imo, let alone as a followup to TLJ, which I did love. Ret-cons like Rey Palpatine make me angry, to be sure; but there are so many places where the writing just utterly falls apart. Things like the stupid knife with the protractor, or the weird-ass plot point with the secondary navigation tower on Exegol. Why is Keri Russell in the movie? You could have just given the “You’re not alone” speech to Lando (Oh wait, they did do that, didn’t they? They had two different characters give Poe two different “You’re not alone” speeches.). Speaking of Lando, why has he spent the last 30 years hanging out on Pig Planet? Did Luke just abandon him there? Surely he wouldn’t want to stay?

The overaching plot doesn’t make any sense. Why did Palps announce his return rather than using the element of surprise? Why does he give himself an arbitrary 16 hour delay, when he proves that the fleet is ready to deploy whenever he feels like it? Why would Hux betray everything he believes in just because he dislikes a coworker? Why does Palps tell Kylo explicitly to kill Rey, when his whole plan depended on Rey magically finding her way to Exegol un-killed?

Then you add general story structure issues - the breakneck pace of the edit, the MacGuffins on MacGuffins on MacGuffins (“We need to find Ochi’s ship because it contains a clue that will lead to a doohickey that will give us a map that will lead us to Exegol!”), the fact that Kylo destroys the Prime MacGuffin, retroactively making the past hour we just spent looking for it pointless.

I’ve already discussed my issues with the muddled themes and the broken character arcs…

I really can’t think of any level on which this movie actually works. The fact that we’re getting even halfway decent fan edits out of it frankly blows my mind. This community is seriously talented.

Agree with poppasketti - it looks great, but the highlights could probably be tweaked a little more to match the orangey/pinky palette of the rest of the sequence.

Also, I feel like we should still hear the TIEs flying in the new shot. It might also be cool to see just their shadows flying across the landscape, so that we can more effectively convey them descending from atmosphere to high altitude, to castle level, to forest level, to ground. There might be too much contrast there to show the shadows effectively though…

Great work on the shot, both of you! The music sounds really seamless.