sherlockpotter

Hal 9000 said:

After the interrupted execution scene…

Stormtrooper: “What are you doing down here?”

C-3PO: “I am a highly-trained Resistance spy.”

Stormtrooper: “Right. And I’m Jabba the Hutt."

[PEW!]

Or simply:

Stormtrooper: “Then why ar- wait, what?”

[PEW!]

Honestly, while it is a little naff that 3PO references the Resistance post-mind wipe, it’s hilarious enough that I might be willing to overlook that. And I suppose you could hand-wave it with “Poe told him about the Resistance and the First Order on the way to Kylo’s ship so that he’d be on his guard…but then he mixed up which side he was supposed to be on.”

EDIT: Or just use the clip where he says “It appears I am a highly trained Resistance spy.”

And dzabdehat, fantastic job extracting those clips!

EDIT 2: Oooh, man, there are some audio clips in that folder that could work really, really well with Jannah. I’m going to have a lot of fun playing with the scene tonight.

Hal 9000 said:

And that clip works well, Sherlock! Because it’s so tight, a hilarious 3PO line might actually drown out the rest of the scene. “Is everyday like this for you people” might work best.

If we end up with a clean(ed) line about being a “highly trained resistance spy,” maybe it could replace the lines when he’s chatting with a stormtrooper on the star destroyer.

Oh man, if he said that on the star destroyer, and the Stormtrooper was just like, “Wait…what?” before immediately being shot, that would be hilarious! (Although…would his knowledge of the Resistance have been erased in the memory wipe? Hmm…)

It’s definitely tight; but I tried to cheat and slow/interpolate that shot of Jannah looking directly towards the camera. (That was originally at the end of “He said you were the last hope,” but there were only a few frames to work with after she stops talking.) I wasn’t sure how noticeable it was? I’d be scared to speed it up any more though; I think it would go by so quickly that it would be jarring. I also comped in Rey’s “Please” from earlier in the film, so that it sounds less like a demand, and more like a request. I can try out the “Everyday like this for you people” later tonight.

Oh, and jarbear mentioned using the line “May I say, this is not the way to treat friendly visitors on your planet.” It’s a great line, and I tried to incorporate it; but I don’t think the delivery will work. He says that line while struggling, completely in distress. It didn’t sound right in this scene to me.

Also: CaptainFaraday makes a very good point about “reinforcing” the message for the audience. I was thinking, is there some way to have Rey say something to herself as she’s walking up to the dagger in Kylo’s quarters? Something like “Embrace the Dark Side.” It would remind the audience, and it would help to reinforce what she’s about to do.

And in that case, I almost feel like we should build the 3PO translation backwards from that, so that she’ll end up quoting it. Kind of like how they wrote the other character’s lines around what Carrie Fisher footage they had to work with.

So like, 3PO says something like, “The Wayfinder will only be revealed to those who embrace the Dark Side.” And then later, Rey remembers, “Embrace the Dark Side…” (I suppose we could also have her just remember 3PO’s translation itself, but I feel like that wouldn’t sound right in context.)

Trying out a few different things here. Thoughts?

I think what would really sell it is if we could find some instance of Naomi Ackie saying “Fine.” I also reversed the clip of Horse Man, so that he looks over towards Jannah before she makes her verdict. I think it would be perfect if he looks over when she says “Fine. I can take you there by water.”

https://streamable.com/lyj4eg

I like the idea that the translation sounds kind of cryptic and mysterious, so I personally wouldn’t want to make the instructions too explicit. (“Yo! If you’re evil enough, we’ll give you the location!”) I think my two favorites of Hal’s are:

The Sith fortress on Exegol is hidden from the light. Surrender to the darkness within to find the way. To the wielder’s dark nature, only this blade tells.

and

The Sith fortress on Exegol is hidden from the light. The Wayfinders reveal the path to acolytes of the dark. To those it chooses, only this blade tells.

Tweaked a little further, it could possibly be:

The Sith fortress is hidden from the Light.
Surrender to Darkness to find the way.
To those who embrace it, this blade shall tell.

I don’t think it’s “technically” iambic pentameter, but all of the lines would at least have ten syllables. (Maybe that’s a failure of the translation lol.)

I feel like if the lines are timed a little differently, we won’t even need an ice-breaker. I may try to play around with it tonight. (My hard drive just had to be reformatted, and I lost all of my previous projects (yay); but now I should be back in the game!) I guess it depends on Jannah’s reactions during the scene. If she has a slight smile, or a half-laugh to herself, then I think we need an ice-breaker; if she remains kind of tense and aloof throughout the confrontation, it would be better without.

If we do want a 3PO line, I say keep it simple. Everyone’s eying each other suspiciously, and then 3PO just chimes in with “Hello! I am C-3PO - Human/cyborg relations!” [Awkward pause]

EDIT: Playing off of Hal’s idea, it would work if it played out like:

Jannah: Are you Resistance?
POE: That depends.
C-3PO: What resistance?

I’m just not sure…do we have 3PO audio to support that? Like jarbear said, I think we can get away with recording a new translation, because his voice is supposed to sound different during that part anyway. I’d be worried about recording new lines in his normal voice though.

dgraham414 said:

I feel like we’ve gotten to the point where we’re just changing things for the sake of changing things…

It’s not the most important change to agonize over, true; but I do think it might be worth considering, since we’re already recutting that scene anyway. After all, small changes like that can have a surprisingly large, subconscious effect on the viewer. Besides, you’d typically want your establishing shots near the beginning of a scene, rather than in the middle of them.

Adding a 3PO line could work, but it would have to be done carefully. I feel like anything he says wouldn’t just break the ice, it would break the tension. It’ll probably be very subjective when we want them to end the actual standoff.

Also, could we maybe put that wide/crane shot in before anyone starts talking? It feels like a good establishing shot, and a good way for the audience to hold their breath while we’re trying to figure out what exactly will happen with this new faction. Plus, the heroes look very small in the frame, so it would be a great way to establish a more worried tone for the rest of the conversation.

jarbear said:

3. It would be nice that Finn’s conversation with Jannah works out to be a motivation for Jannah and crew to join up with them. You know, actually have Finn’s origin story of Storm Trooper turn good to help recruit others. Crazy concept, I know!

I didn’t even consider that, if Babu doesn’t reach out to Jannah before they arrive, that Finn would be the primary source of motivation for her to join the cause. Sure, we’d have to deprive Babu of a hero moment, and give it to one of our main characters instead; but it might just be worth it.

RogueLeader, you mad genius, you.

I had another idea for a Post-Location-Reveal/Falcon Scene. Y’all remember this vision? If we can replicate a similar distortion effect, that might be a subtle way of tying back into the other trilogies.

So, picture that effect over, say, a shot of the Throne Room or something. We hear Sith Whispers, and Finn’s voice, kind of echoey, as he says “The Endor System? Are you sure? Rey?” [cut to a brief shot of Rey looking all spaced out] Finn says again, “Rey!” [the panel on the Falcon sparks, Rey looks up at it, snapping out of her daze. She clears the smoke, the scene resumes as normal].

[Cut to the Falcon flying through hyperspace.] Poe says “Landing gear’s busted? How busted?” [Potentially insert a new shot of Chewie reacting, or even 3PO reacting (“Oh my!”), to alleviate the rushed transition that Hal pointed out. Plus, it would help us to pad out the movie a little more and take a breath.]

We get another visual depiction of the new location, Finn learns about it, and we don’t have to copy much footage from later in the scene. Plus, a Prequel tie in!

If we can get that reshuffle to work in the sequence, I really do like the flow of Poe commenting on their landing gear, and then using that scene as a segue into the next. It’s not the biggest deal, but the current progression just feels a little choppy to me.

CaptainFaraday said:

The closest explanation we get is in the novelisation; Kylo can sense where she’s planning to go through the Dyad.

That’s kind of what I was thinking when I suggested cutting the “necklace tracking” scene. I’d rather handwave something away, than over-explain it to the point of ridiculousness. (Not that I’m trying to reopen a past debate, just citing an example.)

I guess my thinking is: Every Star Wars movie is filled with lines that are utterly stupid on close inspection. That’s part of the deal; I get it. But if we’re recutting the movie anyway, and it doesn’t hurt anything to remove them (e.g. Lando’s transmission from Leia, again, just an example), then I probably lean in favor of it.

If the removal actually helps to make the film better, such as this line about Babu “What The” Frik, or the line about 3PO reading the Wayfinder location from the Dagger, then I’m all for the change.

I’ll bet that’s how Kylo tracked them to Endor in the first place! “Wait, did this “Babu Frik” fellow say Rey is going to Endor? Quick, prepare only my ship! I’ve got this though; everyone else can stay put.”

I’m literally cackling at the thought that Supreme Leader Kylo Ren, the Knights of Ren, and the combined resources of the entire First Order were only able to track Rey through this adventure because a pig-child gave her a necklace 90 seconds earlier; and later, because a droid-hacker-frog-monkey sent out a generic tweet that said she was going to Endor.

They’re the most fearsome hunters since Ochi - the man who didn’t realize his target was screaming at him just 200 feet away, and who had to carve a map back to HQ into his own murder weapon in order to find it again.

In all seriousness, we could lift some lines from TLJ so that the dialogue goes:

JANNAH: Rough landing.
POE: I’ve seen worse.
JANNAH: I’ve seen better.
REY: Stop. Please, we have to get to that wreck. There is something inside there we need.

Or else, maybe just repurpose what she says to Zorii earlier in the film? (Did we change that line? I remember discussion about it, but I can’t remember what was decided.)

JANNAH: Rough landing.
POE: I’ve seen worse.
JANNAH: I’ve seen better.
REY: We could really use your help. Please, we have to get to that wreck. There is something inside there we need.

Personally, I still really dislike the idea of a prophecy/chosen one angle for the film. Like I’ve said before in the thread, I don’t like how Rey is special because she’s a Palpatine, and how she’s doubly-special as part of a mythical Force Dyad™; if she’s triply-special because she’s a Chosen One, I may just lose it haha. (Plus, we’d have to rework it again anyway for the Rey Nobody version; so I think we should just come up with one plot thread that can be used in both edits.)

There’s also a problem with that structurally: We’d be trying to introduce a legendary, galaxy-defining prophecy in the eleventh hour of the entire trilogy, let alone the saga. It would have to be set up, explained, and resolved, all in an hour or so. Aside from the massive disconnect it would add in regards to the previous two movies, it would just be unsatisfying storytelling, imo. I see what you’re going for, jarbear; but I have a lot of misgivings about it.

I actually don’t think we need to specify Endor for Jannah to make sense:

JANNAH: Rough landing.
POE: I’ve seen worse.
JANNAH: I’ve seen better. Are you Resistance?
POE: That depends.
JANNAH: We picked up a transmission from someone named Babu Frik.
C-3PO: Babu Frik? Oh, he’s one of my oldest friends.
JANNAH: He said you’d come. He said you were the last hope.
REY: We have to get to that wreck. There is something inside there we need.

We could just recut it to:

JANNAH: Rough landing.
POE: I’ve seen worse.
JANNAH: I’ve seen better.
REY: We have to get to that wreck. There is something inside there we need.

If we really wanted, maybe we could add in a line from someone saying “We’re with the Resistance.” But I think it actually makes more sense if neither side identifies their political affiliations to strangers they’ve just met, brandishing weapons, in the middle of a war, the dumb f*cks.

Maybe we could smooth over the cut with Rey saying something like “Stop, please, we have to get to that wreck”?

I mean, let’s be honest, it’s stupid as hell anyway. Babu decides to send a (apparently non-encrypted) transmission to Ewok Moon, on the off chance that there will just happen to be people there (not just on Endor in general, but within spitting distance of the Death Star II), that those people will be sided against the First Order, and that they’ll want to help the heroes. God, I hope there aren’t any stormtroopers or Sith Cultists or Imperial supporters or bounty hunters or assassins or scavengers at this location that’s apparently still rife with Imperial technology and Voodoo Sith artifacts. Can you imagine random people scavenging Imperial relics?? Unthinkable.

Obviously Babu and Jannah have no prior association. “from someone named Babu Frik.” Babu’s on the black market, and presumably operates in secret. Why would he send a transmission??

Like, God, what was he thinking? Actually though, what was he thinking? Can we cut that out of the film regardless of its implications on the Dagger™ plotline?

I took my own stab at the dagger translation:

To darkened hearts, this blade reveals
The source of where Wayfinder dwells.
Submit to darkness, accept thine fate,
The path to open, as this blade tells.

I wanted it to sound more archaic, so I shuffled the sentence sections around a bit. I removed some articles, added “thine,”…just made it a bit more minimalist, a bit more poetic; and a bit less modern.

Also, the meter flows better to me this way. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I also was thinking, it might not be good to say, “You need to HATE to use the Dagger!!” Just because Daisy’s expression when holding the Dagger is more “fearful” than “hateful.” We can’t change that, so let’s not draw attention to it.

Plus, “submit to darkness, accept thine fate” foreshadows what Palpatine starts bloviating about in the finale.

Regarding RL’s three plans, I kind of favor B myself. I could see C working, but I still think we should actually see the physical Death Star ruins in a vision.

• Film is a visual medium, and I’d like to show rather than tell as much as possible.
• it makes it clearer to the audience if they can actually see the Death Star ruins. (Maybe whisper “Endorrrrrr…” over the clip?) Besides, wouldn’t it be more exciting to see the Death Star, rather than hear about it? A little teaser, as it were.

No matter which version is picked though, I’d love to see/hear Rey’s Throne Room yell from TLJ. I just think it’s great.

I do think that we should definitely hear whispers on Pasaana in the cave. It’s an effective way of establishing that the Dagger is magical. Plus, I like the thought that it starts small with just a few whispers to “tempt” Rey, and then it builds to the full on vision later on. It shows that she’s connecting with it, rather than just “Wait, where are these whispers coming from? Are they in her mind? What’s happening?”

Also, to help differentiate the Cave scene from the Destroyer scene, I already suggested having her eyes go yellow in the latter just before the vision. But we might also have the dagger glow a little bit? Shows that it’s magical, and that it’s activating. We might need an additional sound effect on top of the whispers to sell the glowing though.

CaptainFaraday said:

I don’t remember actually seeing Rey in the throne in the theatrical cut - is that footage from somewhere else?

I measured it at one point. She’s on the throne for exactly 8 frames in the theatrical cut. They really did hinge the entire climax of the Sequel Trilogy on one-third of a second of footage.

Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you: The Rise of Skywalker.

Hal 9000 said:

It seems to me that the shot is already a little dodgy since it’s just a zoomed in clip of what comes a second or two later. I’d rather go for a subtle reprise of the Sith whisper for a moment before Rey responds to Finn’s inserted question. More of a bunt, I guess.

Hmm…I see your point. Less is more, and all of that. Depending on what’s ultimately decided for the Endor Vision, we could structure it like this:

Pryde shoots Hux -> Wipe transition to (part of) the Endor Vision, with Finn’s voice “The Endor System? Are you sure?” over it this time (maybe a bit echo-y?). Then we hear him say “Rey?” (echo-y again) -> Hard cut to the panel exploding -> [Maybe do the added Rey reaction shot? I kind of like the idea that it explodes because she’s zoned out] -> Finn and Rey conversation -> Exterior shot of the Falcon in Hyperspace -> Poe cockpit scene -> Cut to Endor

And I love Burbin’s idea of including a “drop out of hyperspace” sound before they come into frame.

EDIT: I know you’re iffy about swapping the scenes, but I really don’t think we can cut to any sort of “Rey zoning out” scene midway through the sequence. I don’t know how it will flow at all, at least given the footage we have available.

RogueLeader said:

Sherlock, are you working in mono or stereo? Just curious if those Finn lines you moved are separate from the other tracks where you pulled it from. I’m assuming it was, but the music just kind of bleeds into the track with the dialogue sometimes. I do think the lines need to be cleaned up a little.

I don’t necessarily have a preference between the versions. I do see what you mean by Poe’s line about the landing gear leading right into the scene of the ship crashing. I do like the way you’re showing Rey kind of distracted. Though I think it would be better to have it to where she only hears the whispers when she is holding the blade.

(I also appreciate the Inigo Montoya reference! Haha)

I pulled the Finn lines from the center channel, so the only other things left to do would be to try applying some noise reduction to them, and/or masking the music with some other audio.

Yeah, I wasn’t sure if we were going for a physical connection kind of thing, or just the Dark Side calling out to her - a siren call, as it were. (Maybe we could go with the middle ground, and cut to an insert shot of either the Dagger, or else of her Endor vision?) I’m definitely open to other suggestions for padding out the scene; personally though, I’m still worried that V1 is too rushed.

sherlockpotter said:

RogueLeader said:

sherlock, could you see about moving Finn’s line about Endor to the part where Finn and Rey are working on the Falcon? If anything, maybe we could hear the beginning of Finn’s like while the camera is still in the cockpit with Poe and Chewie, like we’re doing a J-cut. The whole line doesn’t have to be used. Just whatever fits and still makes sense.

I am honored to have been chosen for this task! lol I didn’t spend too long on mixing, but here’s a rough test:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/184g4AqJx73cGdEvEOuSMQo7mc1vIJczA/view?usp=sharing

A few thoughts I had while working on this:

• The timing is very tight. Ideally, I’d want to let the scene breathe more; but I think that the added benefit of reworking the dagger concept would probably be worth that price.
• There’s not really enough room in Poe’s scene to begin the dialogue there.
• There’s a slight bit of music still when he says “The Endor System?” Hopefully it just sounds like some equipment humming away?
• It occurred to me that this would be a good opportunity for Finn to sort of call her out a little for using the dagger, to emphasize the “light” side of her inner conflict. The angel on her shoulder, as it were. Plus, it feels like it flows naturally into Rey’s “Shut up, boy. We have work to do.” response. (I never noticed how out of place her response feels in the original cut. Because it does feel like she’s responding to a line that’s not there. Thank you for ruining yet another scene in this movie for me.)
• Ideally, I wanted Finn to say something like “Endor? How do you know?” But neither of Finn’s "How do you know…"s felt like they fit tonally. So I tried popping in a line from earlier in the film - “Are you sure?” How do you feel about that?

Also, this may also be taking the idea too far, but what if, right before submitting to the Dagger and seeing Endor, Rey’s eyes change color to help illustrate that she’s going to the Dark? https://i.imgur.com/WAH1poF.png

That may be stupid. It’s way too late at night for me to be working on this.

Okay, here’s where I’m at, conceptually:

I wanted to try extending the Rey/Finn moment, to give us more time to play with. By doing so, I thought we could also highlight even more how far away from her friends Rey is getting right now.

And then, I started thinking, wouldn’t it make more sense for that scene to swap places with Poe’s scene in the cockpit? For the following reasons:

• It means that Rey’s contemplation (and thus, the audience’s) happens almost immediately after all of that drama that just went down on Kylo’s ship, (admittedly interrupted by the dumb Hux scene)
• The “landing gear busted” scene now serves as the segue into the “Endor Landing” scene, where it’s actually relevant. So rather than going “Rey drama -> Landing gear -> Rey reflection -> Landing”, it would go “Rey drama -> Rey reflecting -> Landing gear -> Landing”. (Seriously, who edited this thing?)
• Poe says that “They’re not following us,” but not a lot of time has passed yet, so maybe they’re still just catching up?
• There’s this awkward beat in the original cut, where the editing implies that Rey and Finn are trying to fix the broken landing gear. But that’s stupid, because:

A) If the landing gear is “busted,” how will fiddling with some random wiring inside the ship fix the exterior landing gear?
B) Finn and Rey give up after a few seconds anyway without fixing the landing gear, so apparently they don’t care if they crash.
C) Assuming the problem is internal, how would the First Order have damaged the landing gear from inside the ship when they were firing on it? Like…what? Or, did they walk in after capturing the Falcon on Pasaana, and deliberately sabotage the landing gear?? (“Bwa ha ha, now that we’ve captured this antiquated ship, if any Resistance operatives secure a Magic Password Medallion and sneak on board our cruiser to steal it back, they’ll have to crash land after they’ve already escaped us! That’ll show them! Ha ha ha!”) F*CK. ME. WHO WROTE THIS???

Like I said: stupid; I don’t think we lose anything by implying that Rey and Finn are just doing some random repair on a ship that was already considered “a load of junk” thirty years ago.

V1: https://drive.google.com/file/d/184g4AqJx73cGdEvEOuSMQo7mc1vIJczA/view?usp=sharing
V2: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1WyXHZZhkVrbW1iEaZi9tS9lGe1nPnLuw/view?usp=sharing

And seriously, if any of our VFX wizards want to add a shot of the First Order shooting the belly of the Falcon as it peels away, followed by some sparks to show the landing gear breaking, that would be amazing.

God, every time I look closely at a scene in this movie, it all falls apart even more. That said, the order of these two scenes is hardly a hill I’m willing to die on.

jarbear said:

sherlockpotter said:

Oh god, haha, yeah. So Rey learns about Endor when she picks up the Dagger again while on Kylo’s ship. Whoops, sorry everyone if I added to the confusion!

Also, to build on Jar Jar’s point, I had an idea super late last night that we could maybe color Rey’s eyes yellow right before she gets the vision, to help visually distinguish between “holding” the Dagger and “giving in” to the Dark Side and unlocking its secrets.

And Hal, my initial pitch was to cut down on the idea that 3PO can “translate” the Dagger, but he can’t say that translation. I was thinking just emphasize that he would just tell them, “Well, I know it’s Sith, but I can’t read it.”

Original line removal: https://streamable.com/snti9d
Bonus Rey line removal: https://streamable.com/g624m1

I think that’s what we’re talking about, in part? I feel like we’re having four different conversations about the dagger, and they all overlap slightly.

Yeah, that direction would work for me either of those two. Even though I spoke my dislike of her like about the bad thing about the dagger (doing bad things when she is wielding the Youngling Slayer 9000) it does give a moment for the scene to breath and her comment get’s everyone’s attention to look at it and see there is writing on it.

Gotcha covered, buddy. I’ve done a bit more tinkering, and this time I moved Poe’s line “What’s that?” from when they discover the speeder, to when they find the Dagger. That way we don’t have to worry about everyone fixating on the bones, while Rey goes off and gets the knife with BB-8.

Regardless of whether people like the line with the dagger, I kind of like removing it from the speeder scene. It all feels less congested now, I think.

So! I’ve mocked up three versions of removing 3PO’s two lines" “The location of the Wayfinder is inscribed on this dagger!” And “I know exactly where the Wayfinder is. Tee hee, tee hee.”

• V1: Cut the lines, and tighten up some of the surrounding footage to still flow naturally.
• V2: Same V1, but with also removing Rey’s line about “This dagger has done horrible things,” allowing her to lose herself in the Dagger, and not be frightened by it.
• V3: Same as V2, but with also moving over Poe’s line “What’s that?”

And Jar Jar, my thinking was that her eyes would turn because she’s had to really access the Dark Side in order to activate the Dagger. Does she have to be angry for it to work? (I mean…I hope not.)

Jar Jar Bricks said:

Who was it that did the sample eye test for Rey? I think having her Sith eyes during the hiss would be a complement to everything described there. I’d also be interested to see it applied to her vision.

I did a quick test last night. I didn’t bother with tracking it or anything, so it’s just a picture, and I will happily hand the reigns to someone with more experience color grading; but this is a rough idea of what I was thinking.

https://i.imgur.com/WAH1poF.png

Oh god, haha, yeah. So Rey learns about Endor when she picks up the Dagger again while on Kylo’s ship. Whoops, sorry everyone if I added to the confusion!

Also, to build on Jar Jar’s point, I had an idea super late last night that we could maybe color Rey’s eyes yellow right before she gets the vision, to help visually distinguish between “holding” the Dagger and “giving in” to the Dark Side and unlocking its secrets.

And Hal, my initial pitch was to cut down on the idea that 3PO can “translate” the Dagger, but he can’t say that translation. I was thinking just emphasize that he would just tell them, “Well, I know it’s Sith, but I can’t read it.”

Original line removal: https://streamable.com/snti9d
Bonus Rey line removal: https://streamable.com/g624m1

I think that’s what we’re talking about, in part? I feel like we’re having four different conversations about the dagger, and they all overlap slightly.

Burbin said:

sherlockpotter said:

Well, here’s the tricky thing actually, with the new angle we’re taking with the Dagger, it doesn’t really say the “Location of the Wayfinder” anyway. Personally, I still think Sith Runes are enough of a giveaway to accept that the Dagger is important.

Besides, Rey senses something fishy about the Dagger, so clearly it means more than Ochi’s special knife. How many artifacts, carved with ancient Sith Runes, imbuded with pure Essence of Dark Side, discovered near a confirmed Sith Cultist, are we reasonably going to find?

I guess my question to you would be what are the odds that this one random artifact filled with scribbles happens to be the one thing holding the key to finding that particular thing they’re looking for? And why would 3PO, who is all about the odds, be so excited and sure that it is the one thing they needed if he doesn’t know what it says? Even if we remove the location of the Wayfinder from the inscription, 3PO’s reaction to seeing it wouldn’t make sense unless he knows for sure it IS the clue they were looking for.

“To those it chooses” could work, implying that it’ll only choose Rey if she’s evil enough.

But my question to you would be: what are the odds that our heroes are looking for a clue that will lead them to a Sith Artifact; and then they find a Sith Cultist, who has a mythical blade carved in ancient, unintelligible runes, and Rey can sense oodles of Dark Side energy coming from it.

The question is, what are the odds that this isn’t what they’re looking for? Balance of probability, and all of that. “Darn it, Rey, you were supposed to grab the other mythical Dark Side weapon that the Sith Cultist was hoarding in the cave that was emanating Dark Side energy! Doh!”

Like, seriously, how many Sith Artifacts do you think Ochi brought with him into this cave? They’re not exactly growing on trees, ya know? You said it yourself, 3PO is all about statistics. Statistically, how many magical Sith Artifacts are they expected to find?

EDIT: Okay, okay, okay, what if we could make 3PO say, “This must be the clue Master Luke was after”? Would that alleviate your concerns?

Hal 9000 said:

I had to skim the last two pages super fast in order to chime in before the avalanche continues!

Here’s what I’d like to try:

Dub 3PO with a compelling enough voice and sound design to captivate audiences the world over as we see our neurotic metal friend light up with red eyes and speak the Devil’s words. I’d like to avoid having it be any sort of “chosen one” angle. I suppose that because 3PO says, “The location of the Wayfinder has been inscribed upon this dagger,” it means we can’t do something quite so vague as suggesting that the dagger would direct the bearer to the Wayfinder no matter where it happened to be. Which, unless I’m mistaken, is too bad because that would allow us to ditch the idea that Ochi or somebody MADE the dagger to point to the DSII.

Would it be fully coherent across the film to nix the dagger as having the specific geographical location (Endor, the shore) on it at all? Could it be something like “listen to the dagger in your evil heart and it will take you to wherever the Wayfinder happens to be at the moment”? (If that were so, it would probably seem even more silly that there is a macguffin to get to the macguffin!)

Yeah, I guess we’d still have to have the blade plant Rey at the site of the DSII, but dubbing 3PO could allow us to make the implication more clear than in V1 that she is using the dagger mystically. All in order to remove the kind of dumb compass moment. lol

Hal, what do you think of my past mockups of removing 3PO reading the specific location on the dagger? Some of us feel that it makes sense still, other people worry that it’s not explicitly clear that this magical dagger, bursting with Dark Side energy, recovered from a Sith cultist, and carved with mythical runes is a significant clue.

But you’re the man in charge. What say you?

Jar Jar Bricks said:

Why didn’t [character] just use [plot device] to [do something] in the first place? [Thing] wasn’t needed, and so [Other Thing] was a waste. It makes the characters seem not that bright.

I can’t be the only one to see how potentially problematic these suggested changes are.

That’s what I’ve been saying to most of your arguments, Jar Jar! Haha.

But to answer your question, the idea is that Rey needs to embrace her inner Dark Side in order for the dagger to work, and she only learns that after getting the instructions that 3PO translates from the dagger. If she just immediately decides “Imma use the Dark Side here,” there goes her inner conflict.

Sade, very good point. If this thing was made exclusively for Rey, that’s a whole new can of worms I’d rather not open up.

DZ-330 said:

Here is why I think this translation could work if we are changing the context of the dagger:

“The path to rebirth begins where our Emperor died. Heir of the Sith, embrace the darkness within. Only to you will this blade tell.”

• “The path to rebirth begins where our Emperor died.” - C-3P0 would/should immediately know this is Death Star II, which remains are on Endor.

• “Heir of the Sith, embrace the darkness within.” - Calls upon Rey to go to the dark and further conflict her in the movie, when she goes into the vault she sees what that darkness would lead to i.e. Dark Rey

• "Only to you will this blade tell.” - The blade will only show the path to the person that is the Heir to the Sith. This could work for Rey Palpatine or Rey Nobody. Rey Palpatine, there is a blood connection to Palpatine. Rey Nobody, only someone who embraces the dark side can use it.

I mean, it sounds nice in the original context of the film, but aren’t we trying to avoid that? It tells Rey exactly where to look, just based on the inscription. Who needs the physical dagger?

Plus, it adds that extra “Chosen One” element, and I’m still not understanding the value of doing that…? Especially when trying to move these changes to the Rey Nobody version. Why give ourselves extra work on that front?

Love the enthusiasm, jarbear, but I think you’re overthinking this a little. The Dagger is a glorified plot device.