shanerjedi

Lemonstein said:

 

I agree. But given that Vader's reveal at the end of Empire, and the conversation that he and Luke have in Jedi, it would be rather difficult to write the prequels without it spoiling the reveal. You would still have to establish Anakin as a character, in order for the reveal to mean anything. It might have worked had it been written that way, but personally I agree with what Lucas did, which was write it for an audience that already knew what happens later. It wouldn't have made sense to do it any other way.

A few decades down the line if people come to them totally new, it might have worked better had they been written how you suggest, but you can't write things in that way. You have to write for the people who are going to see it on release. And we all knew who Anakin Skywalker was.

Dude, when we watched the OT it meant something because this was Luke's father, not because it was Anakin Skywalker. It was because we gave a damn about Luke and we were surprised about who his father was as well as Luke.

And when Yoda tells Luke the truth in RotJ it's because we're concerned LUKE will follow the same path as his father, not because we care about Anakin.

Keeping the reveal a secret is a brilliant idea and can be done.

edit: Just make Darth Maul Darth Vader from the get go and be done with it. Keep him through all three prequels. Then have it established that a sith student takes the name of his teacher/rival when he kills him and takes over. To the victor go the spoils or something like that. So Anakin does really become Darth Vader.

It also drives home the idea that individuals lose themselves when they turn to the dark side. They become slaves literally in how they function and figuratively in the idea their real name is gone.

It would also add weight to Luke's line in RotJ: I know that you were once Anakin Skywalker, my father.

And why Vader snaps back that that name no longer has any meaning for him. They lose themselves to the dark side all the way.

It's who he becomes after that matters to the OT. And it still makes the PT interesting enough on its own. It also gives some depth to the Sith and how they do stuff(which we barely got in RotS).

edit2:

So here's what you do:

You make the name Darth a title and Vader the name of an ancient sith lord. Like Darth would be like Duke, Lord, President, etc.

But Vader. Everyone was wanting to know where the name Vader came from. But Lucas just had Palppy pull it out of thin air in RotS with no explanation.

Well it's simple: Darth Vader is the name of the sith lord formerly known as Darth Maul.

You just make that guy Vader. Then people would see him come back as Grievous in RotS. So that by the time we get to Vader people would think "Damn Palppy's saving Vader again", not knowing it was Anakin. This would be the folks watching it 1-6 for the first time.

But even for those who have seen the films and know the secrets, they still get the full effect.

Listen man, anything is better than that "I shouldn't have done that!" What have I done?!" crap Lucas gave us from Whinykin in RotS.

TheBoost said:

Amazing clip. I'm not even sure exactly what you did to Yoda, he looks great.

I will offer my opinion that the blinks specifically don't work for me. I think they worked well on Greedo in ANH:R because the Greedo mask didn't have much of a performance in the first place.

But with Yoda the blinks feel unnessesary. All joking aside, look at any Michael Caine perofrmance. The man never blinks. Neither did Yoda. While it might have been a limitation of the puppet, it was also a strength of the performance.

That's of course just my thought, and the blinks look great technically, regardless of my opinion on their effectiveness.

 

I would agree with you except to say the blinks didn't take away from his performance. What did Yoda *not* blinking add to his performance or character?

Blinking makes him feel more alive; and yet, I can't specifically point out blinks and say "aha! obviously enhanced". Terrific work once again adywan.

The terrific thing about the Yoda enhancements is they don't look enhanced but everything looks right.

It looks like the mouth movements come right from that puppet.

Bravo adywan.

Vaderios  I remember that Dagobah mockup you did with Luke and Yoda in the background as the X-Wing floats up. Still love t.

Ady, that new shot of the transports is terrific.

God, we've become so spoiled. Take a step back guys, take a breath, and then maybe you'll realize how lucky we are to have artists dedicated enough to undertake this endeavor......for the love of it.

Not every moment of a film can be a wow moment or it's all the same.

Like a Michael Bay movie.

"You fought in the clone wars?"

"Yes. I was once a jedi knight the same as your father."

*cue rising score*

WOW!

How did my father die?

*cue ominous rising score*

quick zoom in on Obi-Wan

*cue sharp rise in musical score*

WOW!

The other problem I have with geonosis is there are moments in the cutting of AOTC where it could be either Tatooine or Geonosis. There's not enough distinction.

And Geonosis even shows sand dunes....blah. Enough. Make it more distinct. The coloring goes a long way.

Oh that and taking out the dunes.

Has anyone went over some of the ideas Lucas had in the Episode One revised rough draft?

It's full of lotsa goodies.

Jar Jar fights bravely during the end battle, overcoming his fear.

Maul has a bigger role.

And tons of bits that help explain certain things left open for debate in the finished film.

mrbenja0618 said:

No offense, but anyone who uses footage from that abomination should be ashamed.

Well it does have an underwater battle. And they even use lasers and futuristic subs.

Bingowings said:

You wouldn't necessarily have to show Dooku on the Gungan world.

Though a few AOTC shots of Lee in the Gungan city would go some way to establish his presence there and maybe the footage could be adjusted to suggest the place is under attack forcing them up onto the surface to fight.

There are plenty of rather silly looking Jedi Council members that could possibly be replaced by an actor delivering a very. very short piece of vocal exposition instead as an easier option.

Joined with a holographic message created from combining adjusted AOTC footage (and possibly a body double) with digital interference due to the transmission being partially jammed could do make it work.

You would need at least one clear shot of Dooku at the end.

Perhaps the Gungan sub could be replaced by the Queen's ship (I don't have a problem with elected monarchies as they have existed on this planet and it's an alien planet).

Luke's fighter didn't seem to like being under water but that doesn't rule out the possibility of a space craft doubling as a submarine (though the model work could be really tricky with such a shiny ship) there are plenty of cockpit shots which could be adjusted to show underwater action instead of space or cityscapes but it would be hard enough to sell without an establishing exterior shot.

It's a real shame that instead of the pointless fish fight we didn't see the droid armies invading the Gungan city and underwater battles (Star Wars meets James Bond via Jules Verne). That would have been a first for a Star Wars film But in the realms of the more possible I think the bulk of the underwater sequences are probably not salvageable (unless someone can come up with another really neat idea).

Has anyone seen G.I. Joe the Movie?

Yes any audio would be great. I always wanted to see Lee describe who and what the sith were at some point to either Obi-Wan or Anakin.

But no, nothing.

He's barely a character.

Bingo Master Dooku is sent to investigate the invasion of the Gungan homeworld by a droid army (instigated possibly by another future Separatist member state other than the Trade Feds) which ends in defeat and surrender."

The one main obstacle to this would be footage. Not only that but is Dooku to be a central figure in this edit? It's too bad Saruman doesnt look more like Dooku.

Bingo Amidala is on Coruscant when she hears of a similar attack planned on Naboo which she can not prove she pushes for a vote for a new Chancellor (with some prompting from Palpatine and a re-dubbed delegate Binks).

By making her a senator you would be avoiding all the hubub over the elected queen.

Bingo She sets off to prevent the same thing happening to her planet.

Cool. I'm imagining youre putting the footage of "my fate will be no different than that of our people senator" into this timeline. Is that right?

Bingo Qui-Gon senses the Sith have returned as does Dooku via a hololink but the Council refuse to believe it (Chosen One prophecy optional).

So existing JC scenes with holo-Dooku. Okay, but the footage would have to be available. Does anyone know how to do a digital haircut?

Bingo Does the sound like an improved arrangement?

One of the things you've done is move the second act to the first and gotten all the political stuff out of the way. As for improvement, that depends on how it plays together.

Bingo Could it be done?

I dont see why not.

Bingo What would be the key obstacles?

Footage of Chris Lee for an expanded Dooku character plain and simple.

Bingo Any thoughts on how it could be improved?

As with many of these things, it depends on how it flows together. The one concern i would have is the idea that Amidala hears about an invasion of her planet. I think it would be better for her to experience it and pull the audience in with her.

Maybe you put Jar Jar and the gungans living underwater on Kamino and save them for AOTC?

Or what if the underwater journey was the only way to get into Theed after the TF has occupied it? Maybe it takes place in the third act, not the first. It would certainly speed things up in the first act.

Maybe the speeder footage is swapped and that's put into the film at the first as how the jedi and the Queen get into the hangar to escape? They have to fight their way too it?

Of course some little Annie digital removal would be in order for these scenes but okay.

Then you put the underwater stuff at the beginning of the third act(the road back) as the way the heroes get into an occupied Theed. Now what would be missing is Amidala.

Ziz said:

Bingowings said:

A quick stab composing the shot more like the original mockup :

 

 

Looks good but lose the pink tones.  Keep it in the blues and grays.  We're in the snow AND underground, remember? 

Why does Joe Johnston look like he is about to be attacked by The Blob or the ooze from Ghostbusters 2? :p

Mithrandir said:

This scene seems to be one of the post production made-in-hurry make ups. Or maybe it's a case of " what can I do with this awesome matte painting for which I've paid and I don't wanna leave unused". I mean, this isn't exactly the best example of ILM's work during its Gold Age

Well seeing how it's full of ILMers I would assume it was added late and shot at ILM, not at Elstree.

So maybe Lucas just thought the audience needed that little extra bit of info to show the transports that will be used and the dialogue about said transports.

it's a small bit but it does fill a gap in that we see a glimpse of the transports that are later referenced and it also adds some details about the evacuation underway.

I mean Luke knows his own last name is Skywalker. He doesn't hide it.

BUT.....does that mean people think Anakin = Vader. No. I always thought the general populace was probably told a lie by the emperor and the media(like our own) swallowed it as gospel and ran with it.

Something like: Headline: "Tragic death to Clone Wars Hero" etc, etc

I also think the timeline is a bit screwed up. The clone wars should happen sooner in the timeline of the PT and then be finished by ep. 3 to have some space.

By the time of ANH the jedi are almost talked about in mythical ways.

fishmanlee said:

but then why wouldnt he say: "the force is strong with my son" instead of "the force is strong with this one" during the yavin battle?

For the simple reason that at the time of the release of SW, Vader did not = Luke's father.

I'm liking the idea that Vader actually knows about Luke, or at least knows he's alive somewhere and that destiny will eventually lead Luke to confront his father. But Vader wants this so he can try and lure Luke to the darkside ala ESB.

But Vader shields Luke from Palpious so he can use his son against the emps at some later time.

It explains why Luke is on Tatooine and Vader never bothered to look into a Tatooine phone book under Skywalker.

He already knew he was there. But was waiting until the right time when his son would confront him and then he could try and lure him to the darkside in ESB. Then he would be powerful and also capable of helping defeat the emperor. Then they could rule the galaxy as father and son.

And if you look at the existing films, there is a point where Vader says Obi-Wan was hiding Leia. But at no point does he say the same about Luke. In fact, Vader seems to know a bit about his upbringing.

It also plays deeper into Vader's own desire for power and control that he mentions in the PT.

So maybe Vader was actually shielding his son from the emperor until post-ANH when the secret was out in the open. That's when the emperor says he have a "new" enemy.

I love the control room alternative if nothing else works.

But I hope ady can make this a stellar shot while still maintaining its original essence and small plotting point(dialogue about transports with said transports in background).

Bingowings said:

The idea I had was that by having Qui-Gon announce he has found the chosen one it sets self doubt and panic within the Jedi council.

For a thousand years they have assumed the Sith to be extinct but if the chosen one exists they must still exist for him to destroy and what does bringing balance to the Force mean?

Two Sith and thousands of Jedi, where once there were thousands of Sith and no Jedi...oh dear (you can see why this chosen one would not be a welcomed savior).

Well those are all questions that were not answered until RotS, if at all.

There were many points of story that Lucas ditched and didn't seem to follow through on.

An explanation of what the chosen one is, what balance means, and who the sith are and why they want revenge would certainly make the story better, especially the sith.

They need more back story and motivation.

Those are some great mockups. I love the background folks added in.

This thread is the prequel trilogy.

Bingowings said:

He didn't presume it was the other Jedi who seemed certain of it.

No Yoda knows with certainty about the rule of two. "Only two there are. No more no less."

Yet how does he even know this if the sith were extinct or even hiding for a millenium?

Did he get an anonymous email from a "thard eban"?.

I mean really how the hell does he figure it out?

edit: bingo, that expository scene in the temple would've been so much better. Actually, you could also do it with Jake's "excuse me Qui-Gon what are midis" speech too.

Imagine your temple master played by the one and only Chris Lee as Dooku.

theslime said:

Yoda works as an illustration of what's wrong with the prequels: No story should begin at the beginning. We need inferred past. What was so cool about the OT was all the past that was alluded to - the Clone Wars mention and the Ben/Vader relationship in ep.4; Lando/Han and Yoda/Ben (among other things) in ep.5 - it opened up a space for projecting our ideas and images onto the story.

The PT, on the other hand, ran out of past at once. There is no pull, no space for our imagination, in such a scenario.

The only way the PT could have worked would be if they made up new inferred past. One way this could have happened would have been using Yoda for something interesting, like tying him to the original overthrowing of the last Sith empire. Since that happened thousand generations ago, Yoda isn't old enough, but it could have happened in some other way. If he'd been some kind of war hero who started using the Force against mind controlling Sith (and won, making the Sith go underground), that would have given Yoda a past that was interesting, and a history of the Force type of thing without actually showing everything onscreen.

That way it could have been established that now he's old and almost without powers - which is more interesting than showing a muppet working at the peak of his swashbuckling powers. He fails to see the dangers of the dark side because he's old and weak (giving some much-needed poignancy to the "Failed, I have" line).

Yoda is probably the biggest missed opportunity of the prequels. There were two options: (1) either he should only be mentioned by others as a benign presence (though being physically absent), or (2) he can be a true character, but then he needs a worthwhile story with some inkling of what he's been up to for the last 800 years except being the Republic's lapdog. Both ways could have worked. Instead Lucas thought the third option, the fanservice of just being there and looking stupid (like the Boba Fett of RoTJ), and the belief that this fanservice of using a beloved supporting character as a main character would trump the need for an actual Yoda storyline with actual character motivation.

You mentioned an "inferred past" being crucial to the prequels success. I agree and not having Yoda physically present adds to that past and mythical quality.

All Yoda in the prequels accomplished was establishing him as this great lightsaber warrior(hmm...he seemed to be almost against that crap in ESB) and that ILM could create Yoda in CG, albeit not as well as the muppet makers.

EDIT:

Your suggestion of a Yoda history or past for the prequels reminds me of discussions on message boards many of us had about Sidious. I actually thought(hoped actually) Sidious would be some ancient nemesis of Yoda who had resurfaced during the time of the prequels to exact "revenge" against Yoda and the jedi.

I mean the duel between Palpious and Yoda in RotS would then have some deeper meaning. it would be an ancient rematch.

And then there's the "sith have been extinct for a millenium".

Maybe Yoda was a part of that. He sure as hell knew about the rule of two pretty well at the end of TPM and how the hell did he know that if the sith were extinct?

I can't wait for this project to finish.

One because it looks great.

Two because I'm looking forward to what Adywan can do with RotJ. :D

TV's Frink said:

Stop motion action figures.

LOL

Yes, bonkers but cool.

But I have no idea how you'd even begin to pull that off for a edit.

I remember Venal's shot for that and loved it. It is a great idea. It also gives some distinction to Jabba's surroundings.

We need to discuss a BIG action sequence in the film:

The Podrace.

It's a cool looking sequence. But, there's no real danger as we know Anakin will live. He's racing for parts to a ship when he's been shown to build an entire droid and pod  from......parts.

Shouldn't there be a more compelling reason for little Annie to race?

What if the race, or I should say the footage, was used for two separate races?

What if Anakin was introduced during the tail end of a podrace in which Sebulba cheats and Anakin crashes? The heroes dont interact with Anakin at that time but they witness it. Maybe even Obi-Wan witnesses it?

Then later the heroes interact with Anakin back at Watto's hovel.