shanerjedi

Bingowings said:

I'm surprised Lucas didn't have Palpatine deliver the message in person just so he could add another ship landing sequence (I wouldn't be surprised if we saw Palpatine landing at the Senate to disband it in person in ANH: SE SE too).

LOL. Yes it's the attack of the landing platforms.

Doesn't Ric actually have a line in TPM pointing one out to Annie?

JasonN said:

Darth Venal said:

Written proof that you have no idea what I'm talking about. That sounds like first year film student talk. Let's leave this one right here, shall we?

I do understand what it is you'd like Dooku to be, sincerely I do. But I think you're either being hopelessly optimistic about what the plot can support or what you can achieve as fan editors.

It's kinda hard not to be hopelessly optimistic about achieving such a thing when I already proved that such a plot and character edit can be pulled off effectively!!!

Seriously, dude, you're the one who doesn't know what you're talking about. I'll say it again: go and watch a fanedit first and then decided whether or not the changes/edits works before you say that such edits are garbage, because otherwise you sound like a stubborn, narrow-minded purist.

When was this?

Bingowings said:

I don't think Adywan will not be adding Coruscant to ESB:R.

 

Huh? So he will be adding Coruscant to ESB?!

vaderios said:

Can this conv be on the offtopic forum?

Sure. Sorry but were were just discussing some things. Not much was happening here today anyway.

Anyway, back to the wishlists:

1: Fix the crawl. Make it more urgent and dire for the rebels. This needs to be conveyed in the briefing scene too. Just a bit here and there. That's all.

2: Why is this DS2 a bigger and more powerful threat? Because of it's size? So what? It only blows up ships. The other one blew up planets. Why bother?

Ghost said:

You make a very good point there.  But I'd stick to the normal 4 lightsaber colors.  None of that goldish crap.  It wouldn't be a bad idea to give Dooku a green saber.  In fact, I really like the idea. Anakin had a blue saber in ROTS so it would make some sense if Dooku had one.

Especially if Dooku had a couple of scenes in TPM in the Council or wherever.

 

The one thing I dont like is that we need to focus on the main plot, not Dooku.

Man, if you've figured out teh main plot to that steaming hud then you're better than me.

Ghost said:

Perfect was probably not the right word to use.  I'm saying that a CG shot or picture that isn't possible to tell apart from a real life picture would be IMO, perfected CG.

 

But here's what I'm talking about: Cinema has never been about real life. It's always been a heightened sense of fiction. Even documentaries still posses cinematic, manipulative qualities with viewpoints. They're not reality either.

And really, if you're not talking about CG animation, then the older techniques are just as good at enhancing scenes and making things epic and making you think what you're seeing is really there. Matte paintings and forced perspective miniatures have been doing that for decades.

Think about it:

If you can capture something in-camera or on-set then how is it better to take that and create something months later, with different conditions, in different locations, and trying to match the lighting of what was on set going to get you a better result. it's not. If it's there on set, you should shoot it. if it can be captured in camera you should capture it.

The only things that should be reserved for post are absolutely those things that cannot be captured in camera.

Ghost, have you ever watched Close Encounters of the Third Kind?

Darth Venal said:

Ghost said:

It's a fact that he is.

 I'm talking with more changes. 

So was I. It's a fact that it's happening. The time frame isn't clear yet.

I don't even know what "perfect CG" means. What does that mean? Seriously.

 

When you can't tell the difference between CG and real life.  It sounds like a stretch now, but I think CG will get there someday.

With human CG characters, it will never happen. And I mean that sincerely, not being reactionary. It will never happen that we have CG humans who are totally distinguishable from real humans, for the reasons I already stated.

I was more optimistic a few years ago post Davey Jones that it might happen, but less so now. Partly because of the solid reasons and hurdles Venal outlined but also because of something else(actually he might've mentioned this also):

What is "real" to you may not be "real enough" to me. So when you say "perfect", that's in the eye of the beholder. And to make a person or CG human so real you wouldn't notice it is also, IMHO, nearly impossible now for one other big reason:

The loss of the "magic" factor.

When I was growing up there was one magazine that covered fx, a few shows here and there on PBS that would cover it, and a bit of TV coverage. Today, the behind the scenes stuff is everywhere. It's all over the place. It's very difficult to surprise or get the jump on people. People were already bitching about Jim Cameron's Thundersmurfs months ago.

The magic is gone and that genie is out of the bottle. It might happen to a latter generation that all this info and tech stuff goes away for awhile to re-emerge and knock our socks off but I doubt it.

So as technology has improved, so have people's eyes and knowledge. Even my DAD was complaining about bad bluescreen composites the other day. No, I'm not joking. "That looks like it was shot separately. It was wasn't it?"

"Yes dad. It was."

"I knew it. You could see the blue outlines around the people."

Sigh.

When my dad is picking out bad comps in modern movies, it's over.

Darth Venal said:

Ghost said:

Looking at how far CG has come in the past years, I have no dought it will one day look real.  Look at the jump in CG from TPM to ROTS.  I have a feeling that Lucas is waiting until he can perfect his movies all at one time with perfect CG.  There has got to be another addition coming out.  Blu-ray?

 Depends by what standard you judge real. That's clearly different for you and me. And photo-realistic textures and lighting are only a small part of the process to successful CG characters.

Do you guys think that GL will release another edition of his films? 

 It's a fact that he is.

I don't even know what "perfect CG" means. What does that mean? Seriously.

corellian77 said:

Darth Venal said:

I think Padme's Ruminations is the best scene/new score in Episode III...

Agree with you 100% on that point Darth Venal.  I'd go so far as to say it's the best scene, visually and musically, of the entire PT.  As much as there is that needs fixing in the PT, it's moments like this one that remind me that there are still a good deal of scenes that make the PT worth watching.

Luke: There is still good in those movies... I've felt it.

Ben: They're more special effects, now, than movie... twisted and evil.

I have to say that was one time in my watching the prequels where I was moved emotionally.

Ghost said:

I wouldn't take out CG ships because those are very realistic now.  I would however get rid of the horrible CG backgrounds and shoot in real locations.  That would probably improve the overall acting to.  I like the PT music however.  

 

How about showing a cut scene of Yoda meditating and reacting to Lukes failure at Bespin?

 Also, what are the plans of showing Coruscant in the OT?  I heard that it is a possibility from members on this site.  It would be great to here from Ady on this one.

Which ones are you talking about?

I like red for Dooku if the edit is to keep him as a sith. If it's to establish him as an ambiguous maverick jedi gone native, then yeah, go with a unique colour.

Sith = red

Maverick jedi = yellow or purple.

doubleofive said:

Darth Venal said:

shanerjedi said:

 

 Hehe, man of few words Shaner?

I think he bolded your statement on Avatar.  Either he's surprised so much of the movie is CGI or that you've seen that much of the movie.

Neither.

Sorry. I edited it.

Darth Venal said:

Ithilgore:

Films like Avatar are pushing CG forward and sowing seeds for CG to one day look fully convincing

First of all, I agree with all your post, but one point...

In all honesty, I don't think CG humans will ever work. There is no getting out of Uncanny Valley. I work in this part of the industry, and while some do think it's possible, eventually, I have to say that the majority do not. And nor would they want it to be.

There's an irony in the pursuit of ultimate realism with CG, that being: if your aim is to create a photorealistic human, why not just use a human? Some say "you can get it to do things a real person can't". Fine, then use it for CG doubling, stunts etc, like we already do. What you can't do is nuance a performance in a computer the way a real person behaves. We can probably create photo-realistic still images that could fool nearly anyone. But we are so far away from a realistic moving human, Uncanny Valley isn't the half of it.

Think of what it took just to recreate Yoda in CG. Everything that Frank Oz did live on set back in 1978/9 in a matter of hours and days took many months to replicate in a computer with far more man hours. And it was less convincing. And it was harder to achieve. So what's the point? CG augmentation is one thing, but CG Creation is another.

EyeShotFirst:

I really think that the model ships in the OT minus the garbage mattes, were more convincing than CGI.

I agree completely with that. And now that compositing of live action elements can be done without "traditional" matte lines, it can't look any more real than real. Realistic scale, of course, has to be achieved with models, but as for lighting etc, it cannot ever look more real.

By the way, don't get too excited about the CG in Avatar. I've seen about 40% of the CG for that movie (which equates to about 25% of the whole movie) and yes, it's good. But it's no historical leap forward.

I think Dennis Muren said it best: why not just hire a real good actor to play the role?

"CG augmentation is one thing, but CG Creation is another."

I think that can also be applied here as well when were talking about changes. Creating elements and enhancing existing elements for these edits are two different realms of difficulty.

Darth Chronus said:

shanerjedi said:

Chronus, you are perfectly entitled to enjoy the prequels as is anyone else. I might actually enjoy them too. But the idea is that you don't change things up story-wise or character-wise just so you can have another fx shot.

I mean, these films need all the character they can get. They're not character pieces and as such need the subtle moments, the visual moments(like Luke walking into the palace) that help define character, to get those ideas across.

You lose those subconscious triggers if you just examine the film at face value.

That's why some of today's films with fantastic fx don't work and some with good, but not great, fx do. It's all in how it's put together, under the surface and with story, pace, and dialogue, not just the cool stuff that's cool because it's cool.

I wholeheartedly agree with you. I just meant that it was a missed opportunity for the prequels to have certain elements lost or taken away (that were actually written in their respective novels). It's a rather funny thing, but I felt bags of emotion and coherence in the actual novels - Attack of the ClonesRevenge of the Sith was the best written. The Phantom Menace had some great stuff in it in terms of pacing and dialogue (some that was ommitted from the film), but it is actually the weakest of the film novelisations was actually the most joyous one to read and (although still a good read). And I'm actually talking about the Del Rey teen/adult novels as opposed to the childeren's versions :)

I really don't believe so much in 'the cool stuff that's cool, just because it's cool', because it does seem shallow if that's all one would think about.

Now let's talk about mock-ups! :D

No I agree with you that the novels were better than the films;however, a film can't necessarily be expected to top a novel as they're really two different things. But anyway

back to mock ups!

I think we have a misunderstanding.

Chronus, you are perfectly entitled to enjoy the prequels as is anyone else. I might actually enjoy them too. But the idea is that you don't change things up story-wise or character-wise just so you can have another fx shot.

I mean, these films need all the character they can get. They're not character pieces and as such need the subtle moments, the visual moments(like Luke walking into the palace) that help define character, to get those ideas across.

You lose those subconscious triggers if you just examine the film at face value.

That's why some of today's films with fantastic fx don't work and some with good, but not great, fx do. It's all in how it's put together, under the surface and with story, pace, and dialogue, not just the cool stuff that's cool because it's cool.

Darth Venal said:

ChainsawAsh:

I'm interested to see what he's going to do with them, but I don't really care too much, to be honest.  I don't think they can be made into films worthy of the Star Wars name, no matter who's fixing them.

You said it. I'm sure he'll make as good a stab at it as anyone, but those movies would take more work than I think is possible with available material.

Although, given the time frame we're looking at for Ady to get around to the prequels, the Blu-rays will doubtless be out and probably more deleted footage. Maybe not, but by then it's a possibility.

The idea has been out there for some time for someone to try and do an ONE prequel film together using the three films.

The idea is that TPM with little Annie would essentially be a prologue and montage with then ROTS serving as the true time film with flashbacks to AOTC moments, etc.

Kinda like the old Godfather edit from the '90's where Coppola edited it together.

Bingowings said:

Further to my comments earlier about the briefing, it might make sense to have some of the attendees by holograms (the fleet is big and presumably some of the people needing to be briefed would be also needed on their ships at the same time).

It might be easier to put Doddona Kebab etc in as holograms than to stitch their heads onto other actors bodies (it looked very fake in the PT).

The holotable might be able to project out as well as up so act as the holographic hub for the whole meeting.

There are also some astrodroids around which could project some extra characters in.

It might also be nice to have some ANH style Alderaanian troops around (the end celebrations seemed to make out that they were not specifically Alderaanian uniforms and it would be a nice continuity nod).

I hate the Rebel General outfits but I can't see there being anything that can be done about those.

Anybody want to give this a go as I'm a bit rushed off my feet at the mo (I did manage to tinker a bit with my previous mockup if you flick back a page but it still looks a bit crap).

Are these the blockade runner dudes with the vests and big helmets?

I would say yes as I always liked those dudes, but RotJ is like one big continuity nod. We see almost everything from the previous films thrown up on screen.

Darth Venal said:

Ghost said:

These movies arent just 80's movies anymore, there a part of a saga.  In 20 years, these movies will be considered as a saga, not classic 80's movies. 

I don't know why you guys are so afraid of adding CG to an alredy strong plot.  Cleaning things up would greatly enhance viewing and make them feel new.   

 That's not what I was saying. I was saying that no matter what you do, these movies will always look and feel like they were made when they were. There is absolutely no getting around that, it's beyond the ability of any fan editor, any editor period, to change the feel/style of the movie with the available material. The only way to do that is to totally reshoot it.

As for adding CG to an already strong plot, well, you said you'd like a pretty CG scene of Luke adding. Well, for what? If it doesn't add anything to the plot, it shouldn't be included. If you don't get that, then there's no point discussing it. The point I was making was that CG or any FX are totally pointless if they aren't necessary to the story. Us seeing Luke travelling across a desert might be beautiful, but it has to be necessary to the plot. And it isn't.

Ghost

Do people watch the movies because of the story and characters with cool shit thrown in or for the cool shit with story and characters thrown in?

That's not why these movies are still popular.

Watch an fx reel if you want some fx porn.

coconuts86 said:

I mean, I realize he's editing the OT for them to be both closer to their original showcase, and to fit with the prequel trilogy, but I was wondering if he could edit the prequels at some point in the future. Especially AOTC, which I think could be edited to have a better pace as a story, and also improved in its love story with the insertion of several deleted scenes (like the one with Padme's parents and all).

What do you think?

If I'm not mistaken, adywan has on numerous occasions stated he wants to make the prequels fit more with the OT, not the other way around. And thank God for that!

Bingowings said:

Hopefully someone with a gunner costume would donate themselves to non-recycled camera shots, if not maybe mashing up foregrounds and backgrounds could make something that looks at least a bit different  (both of these images look like Death Star Air guitar):

Yeah there's no need to see the exact same sequence of shots again. We already saw them twice in ANH.

Maybe just switch up the backgrounds? This is supposed to be a larger DS so maybe it should have a different method of firing?

The only thing I think could use some enhancement would be the classic matte of the droids approach. Maybe more dunes around it or something? Other than that, I don't think those scenes need anything extra.

Definitely no birds flying from the rooftops of the palace or circling above.

Darth Venal said:

Shanerjedi:

Add Ben on a speeder and have him give that dragon call and then have him swoop in do a CG backflip off the bike, and then whip out his saber and start taking out Tuskens.

Now you know as well as I do that some people will think that's a fantastic idea.

But you've got me thinking and I'm going to go back and improve some classic movie entrances in a similar fashion...

Remember the brooding, shadowy entrance of Max von Sydow in The Exorcist? Not any more you don't. That old fella is gonna come flying in over the rooftops on a speeder bike up to those gates, grinding that engine and scaring the shit outa that demon. No mysterious entrance for Father Merrin any more, no sir. Now we know he means business.

Mary Poppins? Umbrella? Haha, oh no, no, no, no, no.

Ghost:

Could Luke and Bens conversation be moved to later in the movie somewhere?

 

You can try putting it at various points in the movie, but it has to come sooner than later. Either at the start or roundabout where it is already. If it can be made to work, then the beginning would help sell Luke's plausibility as a Jedi.

Hahaha!

Enigmas said:

I do agree TGI it is a bit odd of Luke, I don't know how I feel about taking it out. Just for clarification; are you suggesting Ady remove or replace it ?

The debate is this: Does Luke figure it out in ESB or when Yoda tells him in RotJ?

In other words, is it important to have that "father" line in ESB because it confirms that. Or is it important to take it out and save it for when Yoda tells him in RotJ?