msycamore

"Red Leader, this is Gold Leader."

The Y-Wings outside his window disappeared on the last frame in the original, corrected in the 2004 transfer.

Thanks to Russ we can now see that the PAL video releases follow a similar pattern to the NTSC - cloudy composite in all except the last digitally mastered release:

1982

1987/1989

1991

1994

The recording Russ have did not contain the credits...

It seems that my 2nd theory is about to be proven wrong as well. ;) I asked russ to post a screenshot of that composite from his '80's UK ITV broadcast, and it contains the "cloudy composite":

I wonder which credit roll is on that telecine, I have asked him to check. IIRC this was a mono print, right?

^ Weird... didn't know that, thanks for the info TServo! And thanks for keeping this thread going!  Keep 'em coming... :)

sigh...

TServo2049 said:

I wonder if this version is the sound mix that was on those clips sent to TV stations/etc. by Fox/Lucasfilm for promotional purposes. TV was still exclusively in mono, so would it be too much of a stretch that the clips sent out used a mono mix?

(I know I've seen a Siskel and Ebert episode from 1980, around the time ESB came out, which showed clips of the first film with the mono mix.)

Yeah, why I referred to Gregaton's comment was that I thought this may perhaps be another clue that this could be another theatrical mix and not just produced exclusively for 16mm prints, but I guess many TV-stations used 16mm back then. I was a little disappointed by the lack of info regarding the original release of ESB in Rinzler's otherwise superb making of book, there's some info about the shots they added at the end of the film in the 35mm version but nothing more. I had hoped it would've gone into more detail regarding the 70mm vs. 35mm differences and the theatrical mixes.

AntcuFaalb said:

msycamore: Is the chroma shift consistent? That is, is it always displaced by the same number of pixels?

Don't know, haven't studied it. But there is indeed both a smear and a shift present. Some of the chroma shift and bleed is there in the actual SW LD but not all of it.

AntcuFaalb said:

Also, is it present in X9 TESB and ROTJ as well?

ESB had the same artifacts seen in SW, so I assume Jedi is affected by the same thing, but you'll have to check to be sure.

AntcuFaalb said:

Does Dark/Sega JSC exhibit chroma smearing as well? No, right?

No idea, don't own it.

You_Too said:

I wonder why the interpositives used for the GOUT was so rough by the way? Shouldn't they look cleaner than the theatrical prints, being two (is this correct?) generations closer to the negative? Just look at all those glue marks between almost each shot shift, especially in ESB. It's like they let some kid cut and glue it together.

They were old and battered from overuse I guess. New IP's should instead have been produced, but they probably thought they were good enough back then. Around the same time a restoration of the films was under way, but we all know how that turned out.

The splice glue you see in ESB is indeed ugly in many places, but it was seen on theatrical prints as well.

Puggo - Jar Jar's Yoda said:

And doesn't C3PO say a very similar line in SW outside the cantina?

Yes he does. After a quick listen to the Spanish audio on the GOUT disc, Threepio's line "Oh dear what now? I don't like the look of this." seems to be present. Maybe someone who knows Spanish can confirm. The French and Spanish tracks also have Chewbacca's added vocalization in place when Boba Fett makes his entrance, in the scene where Lando betrays them.

Also, member Gregaton mentioned earlier this year: http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Hopefully-the-last-70mm-vs-35mm-ESB-audio-differences-thread/post/573758/#TopicPost573758 Yoda's "Ehhhh!" was there at some point before the SE. I have an old VHS tape with a recorded 1980 tv review of the movie, and a clip from that scene shown during the review features the "Ehhhh!"

No, it's Stuart Freeborn. Here he is with his real flesh tone:

Jetrell Fo said: 

I guess I was pulling your chain and didn't even know it.  I am sorry for the confusion.

I SO thought I had something......  :(

No problem, it's easy to fool youself into thinking you've heard something sometimes, that's why I mentioned those other lines spoken by Threepio in case you mistook those lines for that one.

Jetrell Fo said:

It is there...I just watched it before I commented.  Maybe, due to pressing plants at the time, schedules, and mistakes there were different versions of the audio mixes around the globe.

The lines get soft and hard to hear but they are there.  I'm not pulling your chain on this.  This makes one wonder if the GOUT audio mix was played with before their transfer to DVD....filtered somehow maybe?  Adjusted maybe?  I do not know. 

In the 70mm and 35mm Dolby mixes and remastered '93 Stereo, Threepio says; "If only you'd attached my legs, I wouldn't be in this ridiculous position." "Now remember Chewbacca, you have a responsibility to me, so don't do anything foolish."

Right before those lines, the mix on PSB contain this additional line from Threepio; "Oh dear, what now? I don't like the look of this." Are you saying this line is heard on your US Faces LD?

CapableMetal, I did take a quick look at Jedi for you and this is what I came up with:

0 = first frame
712 = STAR WARS title card appear

reel changes

25055 = r2
54317 = r3
84511 = r4
112587 = r5
142918 = r6
172032 = r7

G'Kar appears to lack 9 frames in total around the reel change points.

G'Kar:

-1/-1= -2
-1/-1= -2
-0/-0= -0
-1/-1= -2
-1/-0= -1
-1/-1= -2

TB:

-1/-1= -2
-1/-1= -2
-0/-1= -1
-1/-1= -2
-1/-1= -2
-1/-1= -2

TB lack 11 frames around the reel breaks, and a few more on various points.

Jetrell Fo said:

I can confirm that this line IS in the "Made in Japan for U.S." & the U.S. Faces LD set.  I just checked it as I'd thought I'd heard it before.

:)

The U.S. Faces LD contains the '93 remastered stereo mix which is also on the GOUT and that line is definitely not in that mix.

rsortor said:

Maybe at some point in that short window of time between the 70mm release and all the tweaking for the 35mm versions, this 16mm hybrid got rushed out for a specific venue?  We can only guess...

The audio on Jaxxon's print is most definitely a mix produced after the 35mm cut and 35mm Dolby Stereo mix was completed.

wwdarth said:

 

3PO IN CARBON FREEZING CHAMBER AS THEY'RE ESCORTED IN:

"OH DEAR WHAT NOW? I DON'T LIKE THE LOOK OF THIS"

 

 

Has anyone heard that line before in any other mix? I hadn't seen it in any comparison list.

That line of dialogue is unique to this mix, maybe it also appeared in some foreign language dubs? IMO he talked too much already in that scene as it was in the 70mm and 35mm Dolby mixes.

Darth Mallwalker said:

So conference call begins 75306 ?

Yes, we are aligned. :)

My suggestion is that you should ignore the missing frame and go with complete audio. People who would like to take advantage of your fine work in the future would just need to restore that frame from another source if it's needed.

Han's dance moves must look awesome on a 4K projector.

Molly said:

CapableMetal's encode synchs exactly (as far as my eyes and ears can tell me) to msycamore's m2v.  I made an AC3 in Aften because Mainconcept choked on the FLAC, but it seems to have come out a bit loud relative to a "proper" 5.1 AC3.

Nice to hear it works fine with CapableMetal's audio work, I may upload the source file to usenet if there's desire for it. Some may perhaps want to take advantage of my resizing, frame syncing and NTSC conversion but would like to correct the flaws in this telecine, particularly the pink tint and low gamma, as I didn't try to correct such things for my encode.

CapableMetal said:

I've compared a few sources on this, all missing an occasional frame in different places, but time-lined them so that missing frames are taken into account.

I got exactly the same reel change numbers before comparing to the 2004 DVD with the revised Emperor communication scene removed (it fits perfectly).

So it looks like we're onto a winner with this one. Do you have the reel change numbers for ROTJ?

That's great. So if I should make a similar upload for ESB should I insert a empty frame at that point where both G'Kar and TB is missing one frame (asteroid hitting Stardestroyer) or keep it one frame short. It's most likely a IP-reel splice point, it's gone on the US LD as well. My guess is that you all want the audio complete for future SE projects, if so I'll insert a black frame there so my video will sync with your audio for those who would like to combine our files to enjoy your work. I never did get the broadcasts of ROTJ, maybe I should.

none said:

RotJ reel change frames: http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Reel-lengths/post/422104/#TopicPost422104

Just keep in mind that those are GOUT frame numbers.

Darth Mallwalker said:

Sounds like ROTJ had the same breaks in '97 as in '83

24345 / 24346 -- burping frog outside Jabba's hut
53181 / 53182 -- Emperor arrives at Death Star II
83375 / 83376 -- speeder bike chase
111451 / 111452 - Luke tells Leia about their family ties
141781 / 141782 - Ewok bonks himself with tangled slingshot
170895 / 170896 - Luke drags Vader to docking bay for unmasking

What's wrong with the actual mono mix? do people really need 5.1 or 7.1 audio in order to appreciate a good sounding mix these days? No wonder we so often see original mixes absent on new video releases these days.

AntcuFaalb said:

What's wrong with everyone's face in your GOUT image? In particular, look at Luke's face. My (unmodified) GOUT doesn't look like that at all.

Yeah, I noticed the same thing right away when posting it, might be due to having been resized in the forum or something, I took this example from an old post of mine in the XØ Project thread. Originally taken from: http://aptirrelevance.com/otscreenshots/screenshots.php?shot=36 and I can see it looks a bit better there but still not right, compression artifacts perhaps. Still, my point stands. ;)

Let's say we continued on the same path for ESB.

0 = first frame
711 = STAR WARS title card appear

and the following reel change
30988 = r2
59815 = r3
91134 = r4
122461 = r5
151133 = r6

^ that's my numbers when I've inserted a empty frame where I know one frame is missing (last frame in the shot of the asteroid hitting the Stardestroyer).

Provided the reel changes were not changed for the SE and that no additional frames are gone from TB and G'Kar.