msycamore

SilverWook said:

I noticed that too, but thought maybe it was a side effect of shooting off a monitor. Any info on where it's from yet?

The clip is apparently from someone he is in contact with who owns the Italian home video version, I recently got another mail from him where he said the extended SEN scenes are present in this cut as well.

Didn't think about it the first time I watched that clip of the Italian video, but the opening titles are white just like the 90's video master...

AntcuFaalb said:

I think most of the crosstalk will be eliminated by the comb filter in my Panasonic DMR-ES10

The kind of crosstalk I'm referring to in this case is what appears to be a mastering defect, see here: http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/STAR-WARS-Special-Widescreen-Edition-Technidisc/post/582702/#TopicPost582702

TServo2049 said:

So in short, no, there is absolutely no truth to that statement. Myth busted, case closed.

Yeah, I very much assumed that statement was false, but figured I might as well bring it up when we have that bootleg source available. ;)

AntcuFaalb said:

I know this may sound crazy, but considering all of the glue marks on the JSC (at the end of almost every shot (not scene) change) and the differences in certain shots in our oldest known sources, is it possible that early generations of the film were kept as many separate pieces and reassembled to strike new masters?

Why the '82 IP whatever it is, was given such a quick and dirty glue job is anyone's guess. One things for sure, it doesn't represent what's seen on the theatrical prints in terms of splice glue.

We have this statement, taken from Kaminski's article http://secrethistoryofstarwars.com/savingstarwars.html (believe the source is American Cinematographer);  "Star Wars was a popular film, and over the years so many theatrical prints were made that the IPs/INs got worn out, and new ones had to be made. The last one made was in 1985, intended to be a master copy for home video releases."

I guess they simply meant the last one was made in 1982. In '92 for the widescreen video releases they suddenly decided to dig up a worn out early generation IP (Technidisc / Definitive Collection / Faces). I don't get why the IP's were so worn out, isn't it mostly the IN's that gets worn out for making new prints? IP's are rarely touched the way I understand it.

^ which reminds me... http://www.cedmagic.com/featured/star-wars-lost-footage.html

Floating around the black market limbo of sci-fi conventions and
fanboy heaven is a forgotten bootleg of "Star Wars," a film transfer
of the original 1977 theatrical release. It's interesting mainly as a
curiosity, because the transfer is awful, the image is cropped poorly,
and I'm sure that we all have much better, legal copies lying around.
Nevertheless, as an account of the minor changes made to "Star Wars"
over the years, it's priceless.

*Video differences:

First, the tape isn't really panned and scanned. It's panned all
right, but not scanned--the picture just sits on the center of the
widescreen frame. The only video difference I could find was in the
opening scroll. Not only was the "Episode IV: A New Hope" tag missing,
but the lines were formatted differently.

ely2b@aol.com adds:

Oddly enough, there is ONE visual difference. As the stormtroopers
are distracted by the duel between Vader and Kenobi, Threepio turns
and says, "Come on, Artoo. We're going." CUT to Han who says, "Now's
our chance, go!" In the version with the mono mix, these two shots are
reversed!

Can there be any truth to that statement? and is the bootleg discussed there the same source as Starkiller / MeBeJedi / TWC326 ?

Jetrell Fo said:

Are you going to do the ESB & ROTJ for the project as well?  I know the m2v you uploaded is certainly cleaner than my LD caps are and your work with them would probably be the better of the sources to go with. 

ESB has been done already, I just need to push the encode button. ;) I recently downloaded Jedi to help Capable spot the reel changes, but after seeing some of it I don't know if it's worth it to be honest, ANH & ESB is quite badly smeared but they are still watchable, the Jedi broadcasts are really bad.

Jetrell Fo said:

I did a sync with your video and the ANH FLAC audio that Capable did with MKVmerge and it looked and sounded nice.

Good to hear my encode was of some use. :)

Nice to hear that you got a copy of your own, that went fast. :) Looking forward to see what quality you can get out of it, and if it suffers from the crosstalk seen on my copy.

Thanks TServo! Added.

Interesting, even if I live in the PAL-region I'm not familiar with what the sources was that they used for PAL video releases over the years. This French LD would be nice to get preserved even if the transfer/master itself was subpar, must be the only widescreen transfer of SW that hasn't been preserved around here yet.

Wasn't there someone on this forum who owned the German pre-THX LD?

TServo2049 said:

Andrea also told me that the French Pyramid LD doesn't have the Tantive burn marks. So apparently, this film source had no burn marks AND no clouds, as well as having the Greedo subtitles (since they had to switch to a different, vastly inferior print for the clean Greedo scene - go figure, the JSC already had it clean and it didn't look like a dark, purple-tinted mess).

It just gets more confusing...

Yeah, we now have basically all the combinations possible with these masters, seems like they did get it right for this master though, as the early composite with clouds was probably meant to be replaced for good when new prints were made in '77. I don't really get why they dropped the cloud element if they redid the shot? It is very likely the one with clouds were on opening day prints but perhaps it was actually done by ILM after the other one. I don't know, seems more natural to add elements to the fx-shot than to remove them, the X-wing elements disappeared for one frame on the cloudless composite but other than that it was fine, it's nothing you see in motion anyway. I find it quite amazing that both this shot and the credit roll were updated at all, such minor things...

BDgeek said:

msycamore,

having gone through the whole thread, I still have one doubt regarding this PCM track. If you don't mind me asking, is it a bit perfect rip or is it a capture?

If it's indeed the former, then it must be a real gem and must sound incredible. I'm a huge fan of Laserdisc audio and I'm very much interested in preservation projects that tie their PCM tracks with BD video.

Hi BDgeek, welcome to the forum!

What's been made available by me so far is only a capture of the PCM track, a bitperfect rip of the PCM and AC-3 is the plan. Would be nice to have a rip of the 35mm Dolby track as well.

none said:

What we've figured out in the changes thread...

Yeah, those numbers are quite telling. Are they based on 005's current list? I have pointed out quite a few that's not yet been added. EDIT: noticed that it's based on your spreadsheet.

Harmy said:

Though I doubt the actual number of altered shots would be more than SW.

 Trust me. It's the comparison freak you're talking to.

Give me a PM Harmy if there's any composites you wish to restore where you feel the GOUT or Puggo's 16mm isn't enough, the LD-caps I have might be useful with some clean up in some shots, you never know.

And I really need to get off my ass and watch your Star Wars, a friend of mine came to me a few days ago and told me he had found this fantastic recreation of SW on the web and I wondered what he talked about. ;) Keep up the great work Harmy! :)

Mavimao said:

But Empire was pretty good already. I guess it helps that it was the most untouched of the three films.

It's actually the most tinkered with film of the bunch in terms of how many altered shots there are, it just happens to be much more subtle tweaks than the other two.

And in terms of technical aspects of the 2004 transfers, the ESB is definitely even more problematic than Star Wars.

Bradhenry said:

I know when any one birthday is come is not explain own thoughts.

 I don't know when birthday is come explain thoughts is own.

So what do you guys think of this mix when you've now heard it? I'm curious to hear your thoughts on it. Personally I'm very fond of the polished 35mm but absolutely love the dynamic range, bass, clarity and some of the more subtle variations heard in this mix. I can tell you that the discrete version is not that huge of a difference from the 2.0 version, some fx are awesome with more clearly defined surrounds (the sound of the chains before Harry Dean Kitty Crap Stanton gets killed for example) but it's still a quite front heavy mix like many mixes were at the time (just the way I like it, too many films nowadays keep the surrounds too busy) 

Some of the more obvious differences in content compared to the 35mm Dolby Stereo mix (will try to make a complete documentation at some point) you'll probaly notice right away in this mix if you're familiar with the 35mm:

• Jerry Goldsmith's score on the title sequence and opening is a little bit different, pay attention when we first enter the corridors of the ship, the 35mm is scored right away.
• What appears to be a distant horn emanating from Nostromo when we first see the ship is absent.
• Dallas line "Good morning, Mother." is an alternate take.
• Kane's line "Roll 92 degrees port yaw." is absent.
• Lambert has an additional line of dialogue heard when they prepare to land on the planet, "900 meters and dropping." (subtitled on the 20th anniversary DVD)
• From the moment when Nostromo is approaching the planet until they enter the atmosphere, the sound editing is very rough with a few alternate cues heard. (Deep bass from the engines)
• Right before the Space Jockey scene, Kane's lines "Come on down here. Something different down here..." are absent.
• When the crew discusses Brett's death, Ash's response "Kane's son." is absent.

Also, you might have noticed something odd with this track which is noticeable right before they land on the planet, the score in particular sounds like it's played in the wrong pitch/speed for a moment. Perhaps the sound elements used was in bad shape or something? Anyway, not my doing.

Good to hear it was my imagination. :)

I have no access to the file at the moment so I cannot give you any timecode but I recall hearing a edit exactly when we go from opening titles to the opening shot of the digits. Maybe just my imagination.

I know as little about it as you guys, I'm sure thxita will chime in and tell us the full story soon. Seems weird with that audible edit, if I heard it correctly that is. Don't know how usual it is with original English titles in Italy. I hope it is a different cut and not just a custom edit done with audio taken from the original dub synced to the English version.

Hmm, is it an audible edit I hear in the narration when we go from titles to the opening shot of the film?

Discussion started on this page: http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Complete-Comparison-of-Special-Edition-Visual-Changes/topic/11927/page/45/ decided to move it to this thread, so we don't fill that thread with these '77 print variations.

TServo2049 said:

Since the ITV version looks to be an in-house transfer, the film print they received was most likely Academy flat (i.e., the film was unsqueezed and cropped using an optical printer, so the print itself was P&S), but who knows what element it might have been derived from?

If only someone could track down one of those flat 16mm prints that used to appear on eBay, that might answer some of the questions.

Actually, now that I think about it, the presence of the clouds on the ITV print actually makes some sense - remember, it also lacks the Tantive burn marks, which means that the picture might have been derived from the same, or at least a similar, film source as the official video masters of the era. (I wonder if it has some of the same damage, like maybe those dark blobs during the saber training...)

If it was a cropped print, the presence of the mono mix isn't really an enigma, Fox or Lucasfilm or whoever likely just combined the mono soundtrack with the cropped picture element.

One key difference is that, though I believe it has the Episode IV crawl, it has the 1977 flyover, meaning the edit point is right after the crawl instead of at the end of the flyover as it usually is.

 

All good points, will need to check with Russ if he can provide more examples from that ITV recording. I keep forgetting it didn't have the Tantive corridor marks. It's also a damn weird place to splice in the '81 crawl, maybe there was damage involved.

TServo2049 said:

Here's what Catnap looks like:

It has the clouds. Not surprising, it shares a lot of printed-in damage and splices with the Puggo Grande print, so both 16mm prints must have been made off the same internegative.

EDIT: Here's Starkiller/MeBeJedi, or at least this is the version I could find on Usenet. I did some hue/saturation correction, but this is the best I could get out of the who-knows-what'th-generation quality:

Well, that's just great. Due to the generation loss and the digital macroblocking (not really visible in this frame), I can't TELL whether or not the clouds are there! My instincts say they aren't, but it's so degraded that the planet just looks like a big blob of color.

Does anybody at least have a copy of this bootleg without the macroblocking, or is this it?

Yes, the Catnap had already been checked, I posted my find some time ago in the other thread. Mallwalker sent me a clip from the Starkiller boot some time ago, even with his IVTC on it, it was impossible to tell for sure but just like you, my instincts tells me it's the cloudless. Another that cannot be determined is Puggo's Swedish 16mm, blown out highlights.

I decided to move our discussion that started in the comparison thread to a separate thread. The topic at hand is a very subtle print variation I discovered in the original film, see here: http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Complete-Comparison-of-Special-Edition-Visual-Changes/post/594949/#TopicPost594949

Comparison...

first frame of the shot:

The most obvious sign that they are two different versions is the timing of the ships as seen by their different positions.

fourth frame:

In the version shown at the top, an additional optical oddly appears on the fourth frame - wisps of clouds.

The "cloudy composite" version can be seen in:

• 35mm Widescreen bootleg (Moth3r)
• 35mm Widescreen bootleg (AntcuFaalb)
• 16mm (PuggoGrande)
• 16mm (Catnap)
• Super 8 Derann
• NTSC home video versions '82 - '92
• PAL home video versions '82 - '91
• UK ITV Broadcast version (1982)

The 35mm & 16mm sources above shares another trait, a different end credits roll, see here: http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Credits-Leaders-Thread/topic/12960/

These bootleg sources with the "cloudy composite" and more rarely seen credit roll are Dolby Stereo prints, no bootleg with mono mix and these variations have appeared as of yet. Why this "cloudy composite" reappeared on the early home video releases is a question mark but with more than one Interpositive around and with such a subtle variation it probably just went through by mistake.

The "cloudless composite" version can be seen in:

• IB Technicolor prints
• Starkiller / MeBeJedi / TWC326 Fullscreen bootlegs
• US Special Letterbox Collector's Edition VHS '92 / SWE LD (Technidisc)
• DC LD / Faces / 2006 Bonus DVD
• French "Pyramid" LD ('94 pressing) '89 source?
• UK PAL Digitally Remastered Widescreen VHS '94
• PAL Digitally THX Mastered LD & VHS '95

The most logical conclusion based on the sources that's been examined so far, is that it's a difference that can be traced to the initial batch of prints vs. later batch of prints shipped out in June '77, (sort of what happened with 70mm vs. 35mm versions of ESB, where several tweaks was made to the film a few weeks after its premiere) the expanded release began June 15 and that is also the time when prints with the Mono mix started to appear. But everything is possible of course and we cannot nail it down yet, hence this thread. Will continue to update the list when we find out more from other versions and if more subtle tweaks are discovered.

Update:

Another subtle print variation but this time in reel 5. As I suspected, the credit roll and X-Wing matte shot were not the only things revised.

The extremely subtle difference is in the matte shot of the rebel base - while the live-action footage utilized for the shot is exactly the same, the timing of it is slightly different, causing us to see five frames less of it from the beginning and five more frames of it at the end in the Special Collection print.

Top: Special Collection LD Below: '06 Bonus DVD

First frame:

See the different position of the rebel trooper in the middle of the frame.

Last frame:

So why the heck did they bother to revisit this shot? that's a good question but the reason for it may have been the blue streaks that appear across the frame at the end of the shot:

As with the X-Wing matte shot, the same pattern follows...

Blue streaks:

• 35mm Widescreen bootleg (Moth3r)
• 35mm Widescreen bootleg (AntcuFaalb)
• 16mm (PuggoGrande)
• 16mm (Catnap)
• Super 8 Derann
• NTSC home video versions '82 - '92
• PAL home video versions '82 - '91
• UK ITV Broadcast version (1982)

No blue streaks:

• IB Technicolor prints
• Puggo Krig (Swedish 16mm print)
• Starkiller / MeBeJedi / TWC326 Fullscreen bootlegs
• US Special Letterbox Collector's Edition VHS '92 / SWE LD (Technidisc)
• DC LD / Faces / 2006 Bonus DVD
• French "Pyramid" LD ('94 pressing) '89 source?
• UK PAL Digitally Remastered Widescreen VHS '94
• PAL Digitally THX Mastered LD & VHS '95

2nd Update:

Another print variation can be seen in reel 3 - in the shot where the Stardestroyer is chasing the Falcon before it goes into lightspeed. Special Collection LD at the top and the 2006 Bonus Feature DVD (GOUT) at the bottom.

GOUT-Frame 77593:

In the Special Collection print there are several of these crude marks which appears to be intended for laser impacts, they are absent in the GOUT print. You could almost mistake them for dirt.

GOUT-Frame 77604:

The left laserbolt are drawn all the way to the end of the screen in the Special Collection print, in the GOUT it disappears behind the ship.

GOUT-Frame 77607:

As you can see there is a clearly defined matteline where the laserbolt meets the Destroyer in the GOUT print. The laser fire throughout the sequence have been changed so that it appears to come from above or straight from the front of the ship instead. Or more accurately described, the Destroyer was layered on top of the laserbolts instead of vice versa.

The timing and intensity of the flash frames differs, the flash frames are quite muted in the Special Collection print where the ship is still visible whereas in the GOUT print there's a solid white one in all cases except one.

GOUT-Frame 77594:

GOUT-Frame 77601:

GOUT-Frame 77610:

GOUT-Frame 77614:

GOUT-Frame 77615:

GOUT-Frame 77640:

GOUT-Frame 77641:

GOUT-Frame 77649:

I've only checked Moth3r's 35mm bootleg so far but I'm pretty sure the same pattern follows as for the previous differences.

TServo, I'll start a separate thread for this...

I have now seen what thxita sent me, and it's the same dub on at least the intro, which is what the clip is:

This version starts with the American Zoetrope logo and have exactly the same editing we are all used to from the original. It is the regular american cut for at least the first few minutes.

But here's what's interesting; the narration and car chase that opened the other Italian cut, is present. But only in audio obviously over the titles. The same prologue narration, it just continue over all the extra footage montages that was cut from the previous Italian version and ends at the same time perfectly with THX. There's an 80's home video logo at the start - the blue and white one. This is most likely the version that's on the tape I bought, sorry haven't been able to check what's on it yet but hopes to do that sometime next week.

I'm about to upload this clip for you Leo and Silver as I type so you can see and hear it for yourself.

For anyone else interested in the clip, give me a PM.

bigrob said:

wouldn't the star fields have to be redone as they were corrected for the 2003 re-release and subsequent HD releases

If you refer to the two shots without a starfield, they were restored to their original state for the Blu-ray. There's actually a few re-composites in the 2003 re-release as well, not sure how they treated those for the Blu.

I have not forgotten about this project, I'll just need to find the time to do it.

Jetrell, Jonno might still have the links, I don't know.

Yes like Adywan said, the ITV broadcast contains the genuine mono mix and not a stereo fold-down. One of those early ITV broadcasts was actually what was utilized when doing the mono restoration project. This is what destroys my theory...

I thought this early print variation could be traced to a difference between the early batch of Dolby prints vs. later batch of '77 prints. Prints with the mono mix didn't get out until June '77, that's when I thought this change occurred. But the ITV-broadcast contains the cloudy composite and mono mix - the first source encountered with that trait.

Could the audio and video be from separate sources? Mystery... ;)