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msycamore

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Join date
20-Aug-2008
Last activity
1-Nov-2017
Posts
3,166

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Post
#598958
Topic
Star Wars 1997 DTS CD-ROMs (Released)
Time

CapableMetal said:

The reel changes were perfectly in line with the reel change points Darth Mallwalker posted in the standards thread which means it should should sync to the 2004 NTSC release and the 1997 video source msycamore has uploaded (which I haven't actually seen yet, but numbers correlate so should work).

That's really nice, CapableMetal! If I knew you were doing this I would have sent you a compressed avi of my video source. If nothing is wrong with my frame-syncing this should work for those who have downloaded my file, which is great. Thanks! :)

Post
#598944
Topic
Puggo Strikes Back! (Released)
Time

Puggo - Jar Jar's Yoda said:

The audio on rsortor's print is NOT the 16mm mix.  What is the easiest way for me to determine whether it is a foldown of the 35mm or the 70mm?

The 70mm ESB was a different cut of the film, so it's probably the 35mm stereo if it differs from the 16mm mix.

The differences heard in the 70mm: http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/70mm-6-Track-Dolby-Stereo-mix-differences/post/571575/#TopicPost571575

In June '80, the refined 35mm version with its new audio mix were released.

There's no info out there what the 70mm prints looked like or sounded like when shown in foreign markets or re-releases, if they were the same early cut of the film that was shown in US, this is still a little mystery to me. Could the "16mm mono mix" on PSB be a fold-down of a refined 70mm mix? I don't know, no such info seems to exist.

 

 

Post
#598876
Topic
GOUT Bugs (and DUDSbtEoEE)
Time

AntcuFaalb said:

I know that GOUT's master was prepared for '90s CRTs.

My problem with GOUT is that my primary TV is a 36" GE CRT TV (148lb.!) and GOUT still looks terrible on it while playing.

Yeah, I agree and I found the primitive DVNR distracting even back then, but also many other video transfers looked pretty bad sometimes back then. You are also more used to better looking video transfers these days. You could get away with this in '93 that's what I meant by my comment.

You can also add to your list that the LD's displays more vertical detail compared to the DVD transfers, which is completely ridiculous. Even if the masters were limited and looked like shit they contained more detail than what is seen on the DVD's. This is the case on at least Star Wars and ESB.

A classic example of this:

top: US Definitive Collection LD below: GOUT

I also agree with what Asaki mentioned earlier, what about the rest of the DVNR? the speeder pass by shot and the four-eyed stormtrooper sort of became the poster boys of that problem, but it's far more extensive than just those two shots, overall I have to say that ESB is the worst affected by it, even though the speeder shot in the first film is the single worst one.

Post
#598838
Topic
GOUT Bugs (and DUDSbtEoEE)
Time

AntcuFaalb said:

So the question remains: what the hell did they do?!

Sometimes you need to remind yourself that this was a telecine master prepared for Laserdisc almost 20 years ago, perfectly fine to most consumers back in '93 and '95 but in 2012 on modern displays every limitation of that master gets magnified. It was made for Laserdisc and was intended to be seen on CRT-TV's in the 90's.

Correct me if I'm wrong but NTSC video always had problems with the color red IIRC, many NTSC films I have had over the years on LD and VHS had a quite pinkish-red or magenta look to it for some reason and tended to bleed quite often.

 

The Making of a THX Laser Disc

The THX Laser Disc Program began in 1993 to improve the quality and consistency of laser discs. The motivating force behind the program was the fact that on a properly calibrated Home THX Audio System a tremendous amount of variation in the quality of laser discs was noticed.

Tom Holman, along with Principal Video Engineer Dave Schnuelle, began investigating all of the many steps in the laser disc mastering and manufacturing process. They developed monitoring techniques and quality assurance principles to solve the many problems they found along the way. One technology that was developed was the THX Video Test Signal. The patented THX Video Test Signal is inserted into a video signal's vertical interval (the space leftover between each video field). This allows a computer to continuously monitor the black level, white level, chroma level, chroma noise, phase, frequency response, etc. of the video signal. This ensures that no video signal degradation occurs during duplication.

Here is a brief description of all of the steps that go into making a THX laser disc. Remember that a THX Laser Disc does not use any special surround sound format. THX Laser Discs have soundtracks recorded in Mono, Stereo, Dolby Surround, and/or Dolby Digital.

The first step is to calibrate the video monitor and the audio playback system. THX engineers use a Photo Research Spectra-Radiometer to carefully calibrate the black level, white level, greyscale, and color balance of the video monitor being used in the transfer. The Spectra-Radiometer measures the wavelengths of the light coming from the video screen and can display the actual spectrum on a computer. This gives the engineer valuable information on color and greyscale as well as on the actual purity of the phosphors being used in the monitor. The purpose of this calibration is to ensure that decisions made by the filmmaker on the color of the transfer are done under correct and repeatable conditions. The Photo Research device is calibrated regularly to National Bureau of Standards specifications.

The second step is to calibrate the dubbing machines. The frequency response, phase, azimuth, and level of each channel (2 channels for Dolby Stereo transfers, 6 channels for Dolby Digital) are checked to ensure accurate playback of the soundtrack master tape.

Once the system is calibrated, THX engineers monitor the transfer and answer any technical questions that arise. The transfer of picture and sound are done at the same time to ensure correct synchronization. All decisions about content, colorimetry, etc. are made by the film company, and many times the director, producer, or cinematographer is present. THX engineers are present in an advisory capacity only. Much of the look of a movie transfer is the responsibility of the telecine artist and the studio advisor.

Upon completion of the transfer (usually to a D-1 digital video tape), THX Laser Disc engineers step in to begin supervising the duplication process. The D-1 master tape is digitally transferred to a digital D-2 video tape. At this stage, the patented THX Laser Disc test signal is inserted into the video vertical interval.

On a parallel path to the video transfer, the 2 channel analog print master is transferred to digital audio. If the laser disc contains a Dolby Digital soundtrack, Dolby engineers work along with THX engineers to transfer the 6 track print master and convert it into the 5.1 channel Dolby Digital serial bitstream. One more Digital D-2 video copy is made and it is at this stage the soundtrack is married to the video print. The FM analog tracks are copied, the digital 2 track Dolby Stereo soundtrack is copied, and (if used) the Dolby Digital bitstream is transferred as well.

It is from this final digital D-2 master tape that the laser disc master is made. Since a laser disc contains an analog video signal, the digital video of the D-2 master tape must be converted to analog at this point. Once the laser disc master is made, THX engineers inspect a sample from each stamper to ensure that the quality of the original transfer is maintained. A test disc must go through a computerized test process using the patented THX Video Test Signal. It must also go through a review by a THX Laser Disc QC technician. To ensure the highest quality possible, every transfer and sample disc is looked at and listened to. THX Laser Disc QC technicians have the power to reject entire pressings of laser discs, and they have used that power on occasion.

The goal of the THX Laser Disc Program is to ensure that the look and sound of a movie is preserved through the complicated picture and sound transfer processes. You may notice some picture and sound differences between THX Laser Disc titles, but those differences were decided upon by the movie makers themselves.

The technologies developed by the THX Laser Disc Program become increasingly important when you look at the future of home video. THX engineers are currently working with many digital video formats, including DVD, to ensure that the filmmaker's intentions are preserved for the future.

Post
#598772
Topic
STENDEC's Hybrid SE (part-finished project?)
Time

bkev said:

If DJ can get his personal problems with the guy out of the way for a moment it might be worth looking at the hybrid, video-only disc that msycamore made and has recently offered to post. Even if ends up not to either of your tastes, it could serve (at the least) as a good proof of concept.

I don't know if DJ have any personal issues with me, my comment on the past regarding DJ and me was stupid and unnecessary of me, sorry about that. You_Too have nothing to do with that anyway. And he seems to be on the same page as me regarding the sources.

I also think everyone should approach it in their own way, like with all projects around here, You_Too's goal is an upscale and STENDEC will certainly do it his way. The versions I did are nothing extraordinary. Theirs sounds much more ambitious, and they will have audio. ;) The more the merrier...

Post
#598730
Topic
STENDEC's Hybrid SE (part-finished project?)
Time

You_Too said:

Berserk?

^ A little bit of hyperbole, but not that far from the truth. ;)

After making combinations of both ANH and ESB myself, there's no question in my mind that TB is overall superior to G'Kar for both ANH and ESB. On a closer examination you'll notice that the G'Kar broadcasts have all gone through an additional noise reduction of some sort at some stage, there are many instances where small objects in the picture are completely erased due to this process. TB is the dirtiest out of all broadcasts and that is a good thing. The screenshot comparison example posted doesn't seem to represent what I'm seeing on my TB file but it may be down to that particular frame. The TB broadcasts lack a few frames here and there like all the others but they can be restored by utilizing the other broadcasts.

Good luck with this, STENDEC.

Post
#598720
Topic
The 1997 OT Special Edition Trilogy Preservation Standards Thread (* unfinished *)
Time

Don't know if I should upload my ESB file or not, the thing with that one is that even if all frames were intact in both the 2004 DVD and broadcasts, they will not match due to the further alterations that was made for that version. The same holds true for ROTJ for anyone attempting it. Not that this really matters if you were attempting to sync the real audio to it.

Post
#598573
Topic
Alien subs in theatrical prints of 97 SE
Time

TServo2049 said:

Judging by the EoD clip, the '97SE ROTJ subtitles were actually in the same font as the original '83 version. It's not a pre-SE clip because in that doc, the non-SE clips are softer and have noticeable jaggies.

Those clips are from the original '83 version. And if for some reason they aren't, they must have kept the original ones for the Special Edition as I recall their timings and placements were identical when I compared them.

Why update the font for the first film in '97 but not the last? I guess everything is possible when it comes to Lucasfilm.

TServo2049 said:

When Return of the Pug is finished and released, we'll finally be able to compare the two (or at least, the lines which show up in EoD).

That is something that can be done already, there are two theatrical bootlegs out there. I did this myself way back when creating the subtitles for dark_jedi's V3 DVD.

Post
#598544
Topic
The 1997 OT Special Edition Trilogy Preservation Standards Thread (* unfinished *)
Time

bilditup1 said:

msycamore said:

Ok, I'll post my m2v file to spleen shortly...

Do they even accept a torrent like that? (videofile without audio)

Personally I think you'll be fine. There's nothing explicit in the rules against something like that. If you want you can pm a mod or something...

Ok, it should be seeded now, hopefully it will be useful to some.

Post
#598481
Topic
Complete Comparison of Special Edition Visual Changes
Time

Darth Mallwalker said:

FWIW JSC has a video splice at that point, right after Gringo's last words.
There's two consecutive 3's in JSC's telecine pattern (in GOUT terminology 71933/71934).
Doesn't prove, but suggests JSC's main source could've had subs...

Good point, the different aspect ratio and framing/cropping in the Technidisc master in the Gringo scene I demonstrated in my thread, suggests the main source for that may have had subs as well.

Post
#598479
Topic
Complete Comparison of Special Edition Visual Changes
Time

TServo2049 said:

-The IB Tech prints don't have the "shaky" crawl Mike V was talking about. For the 1981 re-release, Fox's UK division took the IB prints in their inventory and spliced on the Episode IV crawl in Eastmancolor. All of the known surviving IB prints have this alteration, so we don't know which opening crawl they originally had. (The fact that the film was released in the UK in December 1977, so it makes sense that it's the "revised version.")

 

What crawl composite the IB Tech prints had, I guess we'll never find out, but like you said it was probably the more stable version.

TServo2049 said:

-If the IP used for the 80s video masters was from an older source (see: lack of burn marks, lack of Greedo subs, "cloudy" composite), why does it have the revised credits? Were they spliced in at some point? (I'm guessing the cut point would have been at the final group shot...)

Yeah, if this is the case the final group shot would have been the most logical point I guess, but it could have been done pretty much anywhere in that last reel for all we know, this master also have mid-reel splices. There are at least visual evidence of a splice for the crawl but I cannot see something similar for the credits.

TServo2049 said:

-Does anybody here have the old, pre-THX French/German widescreen LDs? They seemingly used a different film source than the JSC master, because while they also have the Greedo scene without the English subs, that one scene is cut in from a clearly inferior print. This suggests that their main source had the burned-in subs, and may not be the same as the JSC, in which case the takeoff composite may be different.

-russs15, could you maybe provide screenshots of this scene from the ITV broadcast? That version seems to be a film-chain from a flat, cropped Academy print (like the ones that used to show up on eBay from time to time). It has the EpIV crawl and lacks the Tantive burn marks, but it has the 1977 flyover instead of the recomposite. Perhaps the Yavin takeoff shot is different there too?

I agree that it would be interesting if people with PAL sources could provide screenshots of the things discussed, don't know if that many will notice our discussion, so maybe better to start a separate thread for these requests?

Post
#598139
Topic
Complete Comparison of Special Edition Visual Changes
Time

msycamore said:

So we might perhaps start to refer to these versions as the Stereo and Mono versions.

Actually, on a second thought it's probably better to refer to this as an opening day vs. wider release variation, sort of like what happened with Empire that had modifications seen a month into its run when it was time for the 35mm versions. As Dolby Stereo prints have these modifications as well, it only gets confusing. ;)

The most likely scenario on the info we have is:

May '77 - Dolby Stereo prints - containing the rare credit roll and cloudy composite, possibly an early more unstable composite of the opening crawl.

June '77 - Wide release with a third Academy Mono mix for a large number of prints, with the above shortcomings corrected from then on.

Post
#598135
Topic
.: The X9 Project :. (Released)
Time

Moth3r said:

I remember seeing a similar chroma lag before; it was caused by a colourspace conversion (YV12 to YUY2) before IVTC. However, in that case the chroma was combed and not like in those screenshots.

It does look like the result of a noise reduction filter.

Interesting, had no idea, there really are a multitude of things that can go wrong in the process if you're not careful. The example frame I posted was indeed IVTC'd but no colorspace conversion took place, the X9-video are being stored in YUY2 in this case, it's unfortunately in the source and I agree that it looks like a result of noise reduction, combined with the bleed and shift of the chroma it becomes pretty nasty looking sometimes. Unfortunate as an X9 cap of these LD's are truly a great gift otherwise.

Arnie.d, thanks for replying, weird... what capture cards are generally recommended, I guess the prices varies pretty much between cards, any good sites or threads for these sort of things?

Post
#597782
Topic
The 1997 OT Special Edition Trilogy Preservation Standards Thread (* unfinished *)
Time

russs15 said:

When it was discovered how bad the 2004 ANH DVD was, a DVD "appeared" with the 1997 Dolby Digital 5.1 synced to the 2004 DVD. (In theory) That track could be muxed in with the msycamore ANH project file.

Does anyone out there have this release??

This DVD includes the sparkling new 16x9 picture transfer made for the 2004 DVDs. It also includes a Dolby Digital 5.1 track, but not the error filled mix found on the current DVD. Instead, this soundtrack is the 1997 remix heard theatrically in 1997 when the film was rereleased for it’s 20th anniversary. It's single layer and the sync is perfect.

That is a brilliant idea, I had forgotten about that track, it must simply be the LD 5.1 synced to the DVD. I don't own it. :(

Post
#597778
Topic
The 1997 OT Special Edition Trilogy Preservation Standards Thread (* unfinished *)
Time

russs15 said:

Your ESB has all but one frame. You have not mentioned how ESB is timed frame for frame with the 2004 DVD (where it is the same scenes) and there is no mention of RotJ.

I do not know how you have done it and know what all the frames are. The fact that you know you have one frame missing in ESB is amazing.

Yeah, this is all a bit much of me saying as I'm not 100% sure, but when assembling it, like I did with ANH, and knowing about all the reel changes it appears my file is one single frame short. The NTSC 2004 DVD transfer lack 3 other frames instead. The frame missing from my file is the last frame of the asteroid hitting the Stardestroyer before we see the hologram of the officers. It's missing from both TB and GKar. Don't own ROTJ.

bilditup1 said:

msycamore said:

I can still upload it of course if there is desire for it, I just want to know if it's really worth my effort?

do you really need to ask???

Sorry, I may misunderstand your question, and your response is simply a "upload it god damn it!" but yes, I need to ask, because if it doesn't really matter if I upload my files or not, why should I keep bother. I don't ask these questions because I think it is fun.

Post
#597764
Topic
STAR WARS - Special Widescreen Edition (Technidisc) (Released)
Time

Chewtobacca said:

I agree, and after you found the problems with the captures I lost interest in doing anything with them, which is why I never bothered to encode SW. 

Sorry, I believe this makes me the devil to those who wanted a Chewie SW-X9 DVD.

Memorex said:

I have you'r raw SWE capture as well, if :)

Have you been into my house when I'm asleep? I don't get the "if" at the end there but this is scary... ;)

Post
#597750
Topic
.: The X9 Project :. (Released)
Time

X9:

V8 DVD:

The chroma smear seen in this example of the X9 cap is mostly seen on fast moving scenes and objects such as laser blasts or other saturated objects, this being when Solo running past the camera, and actually reminds me very much of the artifacts seen in GOUT. It is noticeable throughout the transfers of SW & ESB at least, how this appeared must be down to some form of temporal filtering of some sort in the capture process, maybe a bad 3D comb filter? Sometimes it actually makes some of the static shots less detailed than your old DVD.

This isn't just about me pointing out the flaw in the capture as I am genuinely interested in how these kind of artifacts appear, as I would like to avoid them myself if I ever get the chance of using better capture equipment. There's also other issues with the chroma, such as bleeding and a chroma shift that is not seen in either my LD or D_J's DVD's. (can post examples of this if you are curious) Something must've gone wrong in the capture process.

Hope I don't come off as an a-hole bashing your work.