msycamore

walking_carpet said:

and thats why lucas screamed when the book was released and continues to insist it was full of lies.  the personality cult was still in its infancy back in those days and lucas could not afford to be exposed.

Can you provide any examples/sources, I always heard about this but never read what he actually thought and said about Pollock's book. I'm curious.

Think I've successfully tamed the reds... here's a sample of the beginning of Side 2: http://www.sendspace.com/file/z3e41g

Please let me know what you think. I have corrected the aspect ratio and tried to get as good color balance as I can, no derainbowing yet though, might apply that selectively to avoid artifacting. Easily one of the toughest parts due to being extremely red and also quite yellow at the same time, very unstable colors here. Working in YUV with tinting it is a bitch. The blue are still too yellow for my taste.

Had a similar problem in THX where the white void is yellow and red/pink at the same time, in RGB colorspace I believe it would've been an easy match but in YUV colorspace it's nearly impossible to correct. How the hell do you guys do it. :(

Constructive criticism welcome.

1990osu said:

msycamore said:

1990osu said:

Could somebody show me evidence that he actually said it wasn't very good?  Thanks

Lucas complained about it in 1983's Skywalking:

"It was just a lot better than I wanted to make it."

Wow....

This explains a lot.  I'm shocked he would actually say that.

It's the words from a businessman's perspective, it's a weird choice of words, but it basically translates to; "You could have gotten it made with much less dollars spent, and it would've been equally successful." That's how I read it.

Sorry to hear there was such a lack of feedback on this. I recently listened to your SW LP preservation and like ESB the result is superb. I've never heard these albums in this great clear audio quality before, (again this is both a plus and a minus sometimes, due to the source material) but this is preservation and not restoration attempted by digital equalization. I really doubt you can get any better results out of these. I'm truly thankful that you shared this great work of yours 7FN, such beautifully made transfers done on such fine equipment is a true gift. Thanks! :)

BUMP

Because I think it's important and deserves to be on the first page, in fact I suggest it becomes a sticky.

Doesn't seem to be anything unusual about this SWE though as far as I know, the familiar blobs and splice glue is all present.

AntcuFaalb said:

By high-quality, I meant (for example) going through PuggoGrande's credits and removing the barrel distortion, crushing the blacks, doing noise reduction (and other cleanup), color correcting, etc. That is, making a version of the 1977 opening day credits that would fit right in with something like DJ & You_Too's project.

I think this is a great idea AntcuFaalb, and something that should be attempted seriously along with the X-Wing composite which is probably connected to this. At the moment very few sources have surfaced with these opening day credits, the Puggo Grande source is obviously in the highest quality of these despite being severely cropped. Puggo have stated that he might do a 2nd transfer of his print at a later point. So it might be a good idea to bring this up to him. Maybe treat the credits separately to get the best results out of it...

These '77 print variations may be minor, trivial and uninteresting to most people but I doubt we will see them officially preserved in the nearest future so I like the idea.

Darth Mallwalker said:

Which SWE is it?

Pioneer, USA
Pioneer, Japan
Mitsubishi, Japan

All shrink, but there might be other differences between them for all we know.
Maybe some have blobs and some not, or some other anomaly we haven't even imagined yet...

True. I don't own any shrinking ratio SWE myself. These screenshots are from a capture Nerfherder on these boards sent me, I guess I could ask him if he knows which pressing it is.

A few examples where the shrinking ratio actually displays more than the Special Collection, a little too much as the rounded corners are visible.

SC

SWE (ISR)

SC

SWE (ISR)

Not visible with TV-overscan though.

Darth Mallwalker said:

Maybe the X-wings are subtitles! Or rather subpictures
which aren't on the 1000ft reels, but were overlayed when the two 1000ft reels were copied onto a 2000ft roll ?

That's a possibility, is 1000ft reels the standard for IP's? Also, the frequent changes in pulldown pattern throughout this telecine, is that telling us something? You almost get the sense it was cobbled together from various sources MacGyver-style.

Aren't those examples bad enough? I don't own these LD's myself so unfortunately I cannot give you any other examples of scenes to compare with. But I do remember seeing motion smear in ESB in scenes on Dagobah and Cloud City; Artoo gettin swallowed, Luke's training (running) before the cave and Luke's duel with Vader in the carbon freeze chamber.

AntcuFaalb said:

What do you think about the davisdvd.com info I posted?

Like I said earlier, I believe this isn't the case as they are two separate telecines but made from the same master.

Thanks Russ! And you recently directed me to that thread. :/ The info that was provided on the old davisdvd.com site regarding the pan & scan transfers is simply wrong, I thought David C. Fein might have confused the HBO with the ITV broadcast transfer somehow.

AntcuFaalb said:

Which composite is seen on the CED?

The "cloudy". Listed as NTSC home video release in the first post.

'82 CED / LD / HBO broadcast - time compressed

'82 Betamax / VHS (also '85 Standard Play LD)

^ two different pan & scan transfers but same filmsource we're now discussing.

http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/HBO-Star-Wars-preservations/post/543307/#TopicPost543307

davisdvd.com said:

What You Didn't Know: Despite popular belief, this was not the only transfer made of Star Wars. At some point, a second fullscreen video transfer was created from a 16mm flat print source. Since an anamorphic (2.35:1) 35mm print had been reduced down to a flat (1.33:1) 16mm print, this 16mm source featured different pan & scan decisions made during the print reduction. One main difference in this transfer was that Luke's macrobinocular POV shot of the Banthas was squeezed to actually show the Tusken Raider walking to the side of the frame. This video transfer was only shown on HBO and was never offered for sale or rent [ Special Thanks to David C. Fein ]

When I now read that ^ info again, doesn't the '82 UK ITV broadcast fit that description? Don't know how it handled that binocular shot though. Need to ask Russ... 

Darth Mallwalker said:

If I understood you correctly, that's also a 1000-foot reel change (12676)
just like the other shrinks (70632 & 128032) are 1000-ft changeovers.

 

No, this minor shrink actually occurs in the middle of the actual wipe to Tatooine. The bottom border creeps up during the wipe. Not the same thing as the SWE issue though.

1990osu said:

Could somebody show me evidence that he actually said it wasn't very good?  Thanks

Lucas complained about it in 1983's Skywalking:

"It was just a lot better than I wanted to make it."

_,,,^..^,,,_ said:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eYB6h6bYl0

It seems that smearing is not present, but a comment from a more experience user is highly appreciated.

Check the blockade runner shootout I gave examples of in the other thread, the DVNR-smear isn't necessarily constant in these transfers, I don't think there's any significant smear visible in the detention block shootout in the US LD either.

Jetrell Fo said:

What are the frame numbers of those 97 SE LD shots?  I'm wanting to check my Japan 2nd pressing to see how they compare.

Thanks

I don't have the numbers, even if I had I'm not sure if it would be of any help to you, as your Japanese pressing might not correspond with the numbers of the US set. Try to compare against these by visual cues instead. It's when the troopers comes through the door and starts shooting.

TServo2049 said:

Russ and I have been corresponding about the 1991 PAL widescreen VHS, and I've viewed some video clips of it. It does seem to be transferred to PAL from NTSC, and it has the exact same "shrinking ratio" problem as the U.S. SWE LD - and I mean "exact", I can see the black bars get bigger at the reel changes, and the before/after difference seems *identical*. HOWEVER...it doesn't have the weird blobs or the splice glue marks from the JSC/SWE!

Same shrunken ratio, no glue marks. What is going on here? Is it a different film source that happens to have the same variations as the JSC/SWE one (no Tantive burn marks, cloudy X-wing takeoff composite), but none of the weird blobs or glue marks? Is it the same source but with something like Filmguard applied?

Yeah, I've seen those clips from Russ myself now. And it's really, really weird. The only thing I can think of is that the source was cleaned up in a last attempt to make this old master presentable. It had been in use for 10 years at that point, with new fancy packaging in order to sell basically the same thing over and over again. When they finally dug up that first generation source as the base for new video releases, we really had a winner on our hands. Star Wars have been treated like shit on video right from the beginning.

TServo2049 said:

If it was a new transfer, why was it sourced from NTSC instead of being native PAL? If was an existing transfer, why was it never used on any NTSC release? In either case, why does it have the shrinking ratio problem? I thought that was due to a problem covering up the JSC's Japanese subtitles and repositioning the up-shifted image to the center. If this is a different master, it means that the same framing mistake was repeated.

Why do two different video masters have the same issue, and why do the film sources look identical except for the presence or lack of certain damage?

What is this, I don't even...

I don't believe the "shrinking ratio" is a problem caused by covering up Japanese subs. I strongly suspect this was intentionally done in order to covering up damage on the master. The SC and SWE uses the same film elements yes, but they are different telecines, the same with the sequels.

You can actually see some small amount of shrinking in the SC telecine as well, see the first wipe in the film to Tatooine for example, the bottom border gets a little larger as it progress. Another thing to watch unrelated to this is the last shootout scene right before Vader makes his entrance on the blockade runner, it actually looks like they spliced in a different source for that short sequence.

I know this is The Phantom Menace but Solo's fantastic dance number needs to be included in this set somewhere somehow.

Please!!!

And a proud note/foreword from Lucas were he describes the process in detail in how he didn't provide The National Film Registry with original SW/ESB prints for future preservation. Those films are crap.

And finally, he needs to reinsert the Emperors scream from Jedi when Luke sacrifices himself in ESB for future releases, why was this crucial detail taken out of the film? It doesn't make any sense.

That's fucking awesome, thanks for the story, none. Must've almost been surreal.

_,,,^..^,,,_ said:

msycamore, sorry I'm a bit lost now... let me understand, there is still need for LD captures of the 1997 Special Edition Trilogy (NTSC and/or PAL)? Because following this thread I suspected that the DVB sources are worse than LD, isn't true?

I'm not the person to ask, but I guess there is always need for preservations of SW-LD's even if other sources have advantages over them. The DVB sources are obviously in a higher resolution and doesn't have the shortcomings of the LD-format. The US LD set I checked had pretty nasty artifacts and DVNR-smear that was worse than what is seen in the DVB sources, see some examples here: http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/DVNR-smearing-in-GOUT-not-in-the-master-Or-is-the-1995-release-a-different-master-altogether/post/543328/#TopicPost543328

I guess you'll have to check your discs and see which ones are best suited for preservations, it's possible the Japanese or the PAL lasers are better. The DVB sources (except G'kar) includes the theatrical end credits, the LD's do not. See here: http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Credits-Leaders-Thread/post/593739/#TopicPost593739

Just for the sake of it, SWE "Shrinking Ratio" LD:

TServo2049 said:

Very very interesting. I had also assumed it was sourced from the JSC/SWE transfer, since it seemed to be converted from NTSC. Back in 2005, Russ Dawson and another user both noted that the '91 releases ran longer than the other PAL versions, and the '91 LBX release of Empire definitely looks to be a straight copy of the JSC/SWE transfer. If they were new transfers for PAL, why wouldn't they be 4% faster like the other releases?

I'm also noticing that the bottom of the pylon is cut off compared to the JSC, and the widescreen image has an AR of about 2.55:1. That suggests that this '91 UK widescreen release was sourced from the SWE "shrinking ratio" version.

That doesn't make sense with what you just said - didn't the "shrinking ratio" SWE still have the glue? One of Mallwalker's JSC/SWE comparisons clearly showed splice glue in both versions. I thought the SWE was just the JSC version modified to remove the Japanese hardsubs - wasn't that the cause of the "shrinking ratio" in the first place?

Can someone check the "shrinking ratio" version and see if it also has the blobs on reel 3? Also, it'd be nice to see a screenshot of the X-wing takeoff scene, to compare the framing to the '91 UK widescreen VHS.

Good eye, the '91 UK SWE VHS seems to match the "shrinking ratio" SWE LD. And yes, the "shrinking ratio" LD is the same source as the JSC, glue marks and damage is all present on that one as well. So I thought Russ maybe gave me wrong information and maybe checked his '94 tape instead when I read your post, but he had given me yet another PM where he clearly says that the liquid damage isn't visible on his '91 tape... weird. He said he is going to post screenshots from it.

What exactly is the '94 UK Digitally Remastered tape, I assumed this was the PAL regions first THX mastered release but no such info on the case, it says new PAL masters were used on the back of the covers. What's the story, did this transfer go through any DVNR? And is there any differences between the individual '95 tape and the one in the Executor box set?

Another interesting discovery is that the source used for the UK '91 or '92 SWE tapes appears not to be that glue party of a 80's home video master.

^ Based on that shot I would've thought it was the PAL equivalent of the JSC/SWE but Russ confirmed it doesn't have the dirty frames seen on that source:

In reel three in the 80's home video master, there is some dirty frames that appears to be caused by some kind of liquid.

"Sorry about the mess."

Docking Bay 94

"...but I've never seen anything to make me believe there's one all-powerful source..."

Also clearly seen in Luke's lightsaber practice scenes after he puts on the helmet. Ejaculation perhaps? ;)

Not in the 80's ITV-broadcast print either. Maybe it was cleaned up for that UK video release but I doubt it.