msycamore

Russ was kind and uploaded an avi of his 80's ITV-broadcast recording, and I must say this is a very nice transfer with most of the original timing intact, no gamma tweaks like those we're used to be seeing in the jawas-canyon was applied here, it's very film-like in its quality, this along with AntcuFaalb's bootleg is great reference material to the timing on Eastmancolor prints if I may venture an opinion like Threepio would say. Must've been awesome to have this one recorded in the 80's. Anyway, as I mentioned earlier his recording doesn't contain the credit roll, only the first credit card but look what I found:

^^ Instead of the iris, there's a dissolve.

The credit card is not video generated, it is identical to what we see on other prints with the same starfield and everything:

So, what the???

Haven't checked this source in detail yet but the source used is unique among all the transfers that's for sure, I also noticed what appears to be TV-cue dots.

pittrek said:

What about the "R2D2 in the canyon" scene ? Or the "binary sunset" scene ?

It's true that those weren't presented as seen on theatrical prints on early home video versions. But how many home video versions of other films in the 80's and 90's were? We have come a long way since those days when compromises were made due to the medium and the equipment of the day the average person viewed them on. Scenes shot day-for-night were notorious for being presented inaccurately, examples of this are the shark attack in the beginning of Jaws or the Rushmore monument scenes in North By Northwest to just name a few.

pittrek said:

Or the "fighters leaving Yavin 4" scene ? Or of course the closing credits ?

These two subtle tweaks were most likely done for the new batch of prints that was ordered in June '77, that's also when the third audio mix (Academy Mono) first appeared on many prints. Tweaks done early in the films run is not that uncommon. A similar thing happened with ESB, in the first month of its release only the 70mm version with its slightly different editing was the only version that could be seen.

pittrek said:

And you of course forgot the 1985 audio remix, all the colour variations (every release had different colour scheme),all the different cropping ...

Again this is standard home video variations you describe, it's simply up to the telecine operator to decide how to best present the sources given to him, sometimes with the producer. I don't get what you're trying to argue but different cropping and timing of any film that gets a video release are never exactly the same twice, unless they reuse the exact same video master.

If you describe these things as constant tinkering... well, then you can describe every single little variations in cinema presentations as constant tinkering as well. Personally I wouldn't say every release of SW had a different color scheme, every release that came from the same source material had overall the same color scheme with the exception of the Technidisc telecine, they only differ in some cases due to different mastering, nothing too extensive IMO.

NTSC '82 - 92 - same source material, slight variations are seen between releases due to being either from a different telecine or mastering but overall still the same color scheme.

NTSC '92 - 94 - different source material, different color scheme.

NTSC '93 - 95 - same source material as above, a different color scheme.

I'm not saying that there hasn't been a lot of variations over the years but you have to put it in perspective, especially in comparison to how every other film has been or is treated on video. These things shouldn't be confused with the Lucas tinkering '97 and onward.

Davnes007 said:

Of the $4.05 billion: If Lucas gave $4 billion to education/charity, and $0.05 billion to the OUT, I'd give him the "Nobel Prize for Awesomeness".

He would've been able to donate even more if he had also restored and made the original films available throughout the decade and a half they've been suppressed. ;)

Harmy said:

Well, the worst thing about that is that unlike most of the misguided and misspelled posts of SE supporters his arguments must seem perfectly reasonable and solid to anyone without deeper knowledge of the issue or interest in art preservation. They could of course be disproved much in the same way he tries to disprove Michael's but it wouldn't be quite as easy as saying "see, the colars weren't fixxed."

Yeah, that's what make these weirdos so creepy, this is sect-like behaviour goddammit. It's quite obvious this guy have a personal vendetta or something with Kaminski but I'm just disturbed that this kind of thinking exists at all. And I'm sure that in their little twisted world we are the sect, damn... didn't know how brainwashed some "fans" could be.

Zombie, it seems you have a fanclub of incredibly creepy SW-fans or whatever you call these weirdos: http://acertainpointofview.net/ - see under the headline "Unstable Entities" if you dare. Apparently according to this guy there's a war going on between fans. :) I truly regret I stumbled upon that site, some f***ing people...

Yeah, it's very noble of him. IMO it doesn't legitimize his actions in the film preservation area, but he has always been incredibly generous with his fortunes, going all the way back to day one. So here's to George Lucas for this fine act!

AntcuFaalb said:

If you're not a purist (and there's no reason to be when you consider the constant pre-97 tinkering), then check out Harmy's work.

What was done pre-97 is very far from constant tinkering though, a revised opening crawl/shot for the '81 re-release, that's it. The few print variations seen and mostly heard in cinemas back in '77 is hardly anything unique to Star Wars, different and alternative audio mixes prepared for different formats and theaters was very common back then. An additional audio re-mix was of course done for the '93 home video release but that has pretty much become the standard nowadays whenever a new video release is made.

cbaka said:

We all owe to George lucas the love of Star wars he IS the maker, he changes cinema for ever, he will be always "the Chosen one" who makes us dream, some of us (many) don't like what become to star wars..but it's his creation after all..George lucas is and always be a genius.

kevin smith, ben affleck, edgar wright, Duncan jones, one of these gentlemen should direct the next Star wars.

Don't forget Uwe Boll.

Mike O said:

"And not just on this site." It mostly is just this site, I think. People on Internet forums aren't representative of the average person.

Ultimately it has never been about if there's money to make on it or not, you know this. It would be stupid to think there's not a market or demand for the original films. They would probably do astronomical numbers if they were restored and released, especially after all this time. Everything hinges on one douchebag who refuse to let it happen.

Bingowings said:

I was in a supermarket yesterday and they had Star Wars figures based on the deleted scenes of Return Of The Jedi in there.

This is a supermarket in a small town in central Scotland but nowhere in the world can I buy a HD copy of the OUT.

It's just nuts.

That is so bizarre. Also, that the deleted scenes are available in higher resolution than the actual films is even more nuts.

Oldfan said:

I disagree. Tons of people bought the blu-ray set. Why would they possibly want to purchase them again if not for something really special? Would anybody in here actually buy another blu-ray set just for maybe a couple new extras or different packaging?

Yet how many just on this site would buy the originals on blu-ray on day one? And not just this site. While probably the majority of people are mostly unaware that there have been so many drastic changes over the years to the films, a very large number of people are both aware and bitter about it, which is obvious from reading this news all over the web. That's a lot of people, all who would likely buy the originals if they were made available.

 

You forget that there's always something you could bait hungry fans with when it comes to Star Wars, what about the movies in 3D, more deleted scenes and outtakes, documentaries etc. the possibilities of extra material are endless when it comes to SW.

I'd love to be proven wrong but you basically see these false hopes year after year, in 2004 "when the 30th anniversary comes around there's simply no way they could miss an opportunity like that to cash in on the originals." in 2006 "they cannot possibly release 13 year old non-anamorpic transfers could they? that cannot be true, there's no way they would get away with a release of that kind" or 2010 "This time I don't think they have any choice but to include the originals, fool me once...", 2011 "the collars Will  be fixed" 2012....

Mike O said:

zombie84 said:

That's like saying "with all the money they make at the box office ($billion+) why bother making toys?"

The OOT is a niche as it is, the BR sales of the SEs prove it enough. They have no reason to go back to the OOT.

Yeah, they are definitely in no hurry to get them out there that's for sure, the updated versions has repeatedly proven to be a huge success, it worked in '97 and it worked in 2004 and it also worked last year. Even on this site where the majority is supposed to be mostly interested in the original trilogy, I'm sure about 90% bought the recent release. There's a market and a demand for the originals, yes, but it's nothing that's on a priority list especially when its creator doesn't want it to happen.

Moth3r said:

I still have my taped recording (it was used as the source for the mono mix restoration project), it was actually from Central but it doesn't contain any idents or ads anyway.

Does your recording contain the end credits? if so, which ones?

Any updates on this Jonno?

SilverWook said:

I think the George Lucas of 1979/80 was a bit more unfiltered and less guarded than he is now. The whole book is an largely unvarnished look at ESB's production and where Lucas thought the saga was going. Even Carrie Fisher's drug problems are hinted at. For those reasons, I think it will remain forever out of print.

The new making of is actually even more unfiltered than Alan Arnold's superb book, I recommend Rinzler's book even if you own the old making of due to the great additional material. Rinzler got access to Alan Arnold's original tape recordings and his stories and interviews are more straightforward in some cases than what was allowed in print back then.

LexX said:

Would you guys think that Fox could/would want to release the OOT before losing the rights to make money off from them one last time? Or do you think that we should wait till 2020 to see where we at?

I'm sure they would want to but like what's been said Fox only owns the distribution rights, Lucasfilm owns these films, that's why we are in this situation. Lucas is hell-bent on not getting his old films restored - everything is as usual in regards to the classics for now...

The recent event is great if you like to see new Star Wars films and merchandise, something I have completely zero interest in.

Was able to get a capture of that color bar signal, and calibrated it by using the excellent method Moth3r came up with here: http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Moth3rs-guide-to-LD-capture-colour-correction-using-AviSynth-emphasis-on-correction/topic/14582/

So here's a sample of the beginning of side 2 again, calibrated: http://www.sendspace.com/file/a0spf9 just so you can see for yourself what it looks like and what I'm working with.

I have since fine tuned the settings with a much needed gamma correction: http://www.sendspace.com/file/pwakx4

Think I will go with that setting for this particular reel, if you don't want to bother downloading the sample, this comparison will tell you what's been done:

calibrated:

DVD:

^^ the horror! see the incorrect aspect ratio as well. Alan Smithee was the guy responsible for this DVD.

previous sample:

latest sample:

Subtle but ultimately makes a big difference. You could definitely get a lot better results going scene-by-scene but with a source like this, I definitely won't. This shot of Luke is obviously something that can be improved upon as well but doing so will negatively affect other scenes, so I'm only trying to find a middle ground here.

You_Too said:

Though I think the technicolor prints must have been made from a different interpositive than the GOUT. (Remember that the GOUT doesn't even have the theatrical subs.)

The suddenly correct aspect ratio and severe cropping in the Greedo sequence in the Technidisc transfer suggests that the theatrical subtitles are present on the main source - a theatrical IP. It looks like the subtitle free material spliced in is of inferior quality, don't know how the THX/GOUT transfer compare, there's a lot of DVNR present there, so it may be hard seeing any difference to adjacent footage, but I recall it's a lot better treated in the THX master except for the DVNR, no extensive cropping like in the Technidisc transfer.

THX Technical Supervisor Dave Schnuelle about the process of making the Definitive Collection;

"One small difference from the original films is that in letterbox transfers we prefer to put any subtitles in the black border beneath the actual picture area. Thus we didn't use the same interpositive as the theatrical one, because that one contains subtitling already. In tracking down the elements, we found that the only ones in the vault were ones with subtitles- these clearly weren't the first generation off the camera neg because they had to have the subtitles burned in. So a massive search was undertaken and the first generation IP's were found in a special vault having only opticals in Los Angeles."

This comment doesn't seem accurate since it was possible to have your cut negative on A and B rolls and the subs on a C roll. Anyway, reading these words again, it seems to me that the first generation IP's he describe they found was only used for the subtitle segments of the films, at least on the first film. If that was the case why not use it as the source for the entire film? Beats me.

Also, the IP used for creating the SWE (Technidisc) and THX video releases seems to share certain damage/dirt spots with the IB Technicolor prints based on screenshots and footage I've seen, so it's not impossible that they were made from the same IP, but then they would need to include the infamous damage in the Tantive-corridor, would be interesting to know if it was present on those prints as well.

This is fucking brilliant! Thank you Moth3r! :)

Yeah, that's why I said true words spoken -1. This is going to be the version.

negative1 said:

so look forward to what is becoming the best, and

definitive version of star wars released in the near

future. we know we are going to be setting the standard

for preservations from here on out. we are confident

that this version will be the only one you will need

to own, and with our team, references and adherence

to detail and quality. we know you won't be

disappointed, and star wars will be preserved the

way it always should have been from the start.

That's some big words from you, but true words spoken. :) Looking forward to your new blog, great to hear that none is aboard.

It seems like some of the audio and music segments of this elusive documentary is what also appeared in the BBC documentary Star Wars - Music by John Williams.

msycamore said:

What exactly is the '94 UK Digitally Remastered tape, I assumed this was the PAL regions first THX mastered release but no such info on the case, it says new PAL masters were used on the back of the covers. What's the story, did this transfer go through any DVNR? And is there any differences between the individual '95 tape and the one in the Executor box set?

Talking to myself... the '94 UK Digitally Remastered seems very much to be DVNR'd just like the '95 release. What's really poor is that the individual UK '95 "last time available" THX tape lack subtitles for Greedo. It seems you only got them if you bought the Executor set.

AntcuFaalb said:

If so, then why does he have so many usernames?!

May have lost the passwords over the years.

Darth Mallwalker said:

The last frame of the hangar shot (PAL 144053) is present in first edition.
You said in Post_29 you deleted it.

How did 133160 get deleted?
How did 144053 not get deleted ?

Maybe they're two sides of the same coin?

Maybe a fuckwit was responsible for the first edition. :) Seriously though, what you discovered cannot just be a coincidence, how the heck I could delete the wrong frame and with such big gaps apart, I simply don't get but I guess that must be it, embarrassing. I would suggest you toss that edition in the trash anyway... kick it, hit it, crap on it or burn it. Such mistakes will not be repeated, that along with the poor white balance and my discovery of the wrong aspect ratio in parts of this LD makes doing a 2nd version even more worthwhile.

g-force, thanks for the suggestion! Will check it out.

Chewtobacca said:

Why don't you convert to RGB to perform your color correction and then back for encoding? The quality loss is minor, in my opinion, and more than worth it.

Yeah, some parts might be in need for it.

Thanks for all the comments! Will try to make it more presentable then. The battle against the red continues in the Jundland Wastes: http://www.sendspace.com/file/a5fnir

Anyone got any theory what could have caused a frame to go missing like that in my previous encode, a bug in HC Enc? it still baffles me.

poita said:

Isn't there a colorbar signal at the end of the JSC and SWE laserdiscs?

Couldn't you just calibrate to that, or is it off somehow?

Yes, there is. Unfortunately the guy who did this one for me didn't capture the colorbar signal. The thing is, even if you set the levels properly you'll still end up with red faces in parts of this transfer. So I'm a little torn, make a true preservation of the LD or try to make this transfer to look as good as possible. I can try to post some examples from raw, DVD, corrected and sample...

Darth Mallwalker said:

 

Han said:

Hey don't forget me next time!
I'm GOUT 133160 and I'm missing from your first edition.

 

WTF, you're right it is missing from my first edition, just double checked my DVD. How the hell that happened I cannot understand as it is in my capture, the same source files I'm working with now. Must have been an encoding error of some sort, a missing frame at that point doesn't make any sense, but I don't know if the encoder jumping a frame makes any sense either, fucking weird. Thanks for pointing it out!