ABC said:
So in a way you're right, this old sample is the new version ! :)
Yeah, I've taken a little break from this score, but now my appetite for this legendary score is starting to come back again;) I will give your three new samples a comment later...
ABC said:
You know, I'm not a specialist of this score and I don't mean to be. I only made the work that was obvious to me had to be done. I'm about to forget this entirely... I leave the final word to the specialists ! ;)
I do think you can call yourself a specialist on this score;) you're the one who has listened and worked with this score a very long time!, so don't be shy;). I love what you're doing, keep up the good work!
msycamore said: The Rebel Fleet/End Title can be a confusing one;)
ABC said:
From my point of view there's no alternate Rebel Fleet. There's the complete one and the incomplete (film and Anthology). For the End Tiltle there's the album version as Williams choosed to present with the tracked "march" bit but with an alternate beginning on a few seconds, and the film version (SE) wich was the more complete before an innocent guy who wanted to hear the ESB score with a descent sound replaced the short cuts from both film and SE, reediting the RSO in both versions ;) . No matter the tracked "Yoda and the Force" bit, though I love this add.
The only confusion comes from speaking and the launch of words like "alternate". Now for anyone who read us there should be no more.
My comment above was a self-parody of the same comment I'd made earlier in this thread, the only thing confusing here is me;). Now I finally agree with you about "The Rebel Fleet," the bad quality in the mix and the problems with the volume in that one is what probably made me think it was a different take, thank you! you have at last solved this mystery for me;) That's what happens when you read about it and don't listen to it for yourself. Your new sample of it sounds sooo goood!
ABC said:
You may find out that the Alt March is a bit over satured (as on my edit), that is not the case of the Yoda's theme just before. For me it is obviously an insert, not mentioning the many cuts hardly hearable before it goes back to the love theme. The last note is an awful cut too, wich doesn't prove or mean the album version is a one stroke take, I think it's just better edited.
You'll also find out an awful cut between the two Yoda's theme parts that is not on the album version (or perhaps on the SE). Anyway, there are cuts everywhere, some that you can guess with my remixing details, and some that are a little different on the film version. The End Title beginning (explosion) though has not suffered of over-saturation has the cue I choosed to work with has. It doesn't mean it is a different take however as I guess the soundtrack album has been prepared by some people (I believe John Williams for the editing as I think I rode somewhere), and the score cut for the film by an other team.
Anyway, both versions has been a bit roughly edited. Fortunately the RSO album one offered enough space to re-edit it the best way. So I consider you have THE version one must have on the OE.
... Thanks for the reply ;)
Maybe you're right, I have not listened to your latest edits yet, I sure will. However, I have never said or believed the album version of "End Title" is a one stroke take (I know about the many edits in it) I just said the Imperial march section has been tracked from the concert suite on the RSODLP/CD. Well, "The Rebel Fleet" (aka Finale, sourced from the edited film mix) on disc 2 on the anthology sounds so different from the beginning of the track to the album version with its clear strings coupled with the info I posted earlier that I thought it was another recording and I'm still not entirely sure about it, (maybe because of the different quality in the mix). I remember reading somewhere that the album version is now heard in the SE film in a somewhat edited form, can someone confirm this?
The Rebel Fleet/End Title can be a confusing one;)
According to this article, Michael Matessino saw both versions around 70 times (once for each millimeter) in 1980. Here he describes the closing scene from the 70mm version in the same issue:
In the final scene, there is no tracked music from "Yoda and the Force." The scene begins with the first establishing shot of the rebel fleet, then cuts inside the Falcon for Lando to say "Luke, we're ready for take-off" (but a different take of this is used). After Luke says (voice over), "Good luck, Lando," scene cuts to inside the Rebel cruiser where Luke says "I'll meet you at the rendezvous," etc. Not in this version are two more establishing shots of the fleet and an interim effects shot over wich Lando says, "When we find Jabba the Hutt and that bounty hunter we'll contact you."
I've always thought they were different takes, now I'm not sure anymore (I must compare them). Have not seen the 70mm version myself but this is what Michael Matessino (editing and assembly supervisor on the Special Edition CD's) wrote about the track in Film Score Monthly Vol. 2, No.1 January/February 1997:
Track 12, The Rebel Fleet/End Title: In 70mm versions of the film, the final scene began with this cue. Preperations of these prints began before the film was "locked," so the 35mm version contains several differences. The most prominent is the inclusion of extra dialogue and a few additional effect shots to the closing scene. The re-edited sequence required the tracking of a section of "Yoda and the Force" to precede "The Rebel Fleet." For both prints, a few bars of "The Rebel Fleet" were eliminated. This track was called "Finale" on the original album and the Gerhardt recording and "Finale/End Credits" on the anthology set.
I'm sure there is some pitch issues between the Albums but you can never compare the RSO finale with the film and expect it to match (except if you have the 70mm film version to look at) because it's another film version. The one that should match is oddly attached to "Ewok Celebration" on the 4th disc of the Anthology and that one is the 35mm film version of "finale" we all have on our precious "GOUT";)
Maybe I'm misunderstanding your last post, you probably know, but I just wanted you to know, so you don't work with that one in vain. The Finale/End Title can be a confusing one on that score.
Thank you for the great work on this, this restoration was wonderful and beatifully done! I felt very nostalgic when I saw this version, it feels more cinematic somehow in this crude form than the "GOUT" does.
Has someone managed to find out the exact Font used for Greedo's subtitles? I believe this to be the best source for it yet, Franklin Gothic Demi Cond is very close, but if you look close at the letter "g" it's not an exact match (It's at the same height as the letter "n" in the film for example). I'm starting to believe this is an old font not in use anymore.
That documentary is really great! and I agree with you, that alternate is a good fitting one and I think it works to have it both ways.
zee944 said:
msycamore said:
What I meant was I think you can blend "color corrected" footage from the Japanese Special Collection LD with the GOUT better than the SE because of the difference in resolution between the GOUT & SE, the JSC doesn't have DVNR applied to it.
Oh, I see, it makes sense now. But why on earth would you do that, when you already have the fixed GOUT? OK, not totally free of smearing, true. But making a HD version is more useful nowadays.
I understand what you mean, but the footage we all have of the Original films in the form of the GOUT isn't even DVD resolution. Of course we want a HD version but you can never make the HD footage blend with the GOUT footage even with g-force's superb script to look any good. We don't even have the trilogy in laserdisc quality without flaws.
I'm glad my suggestions have been to some help ABC:) I am going to download your latest one but I think my ears needs some rest from this score for a while, I don't want to get tired of it. You if anyone should know;)
zee944 said:
msycamore said:
I think the best way would be to use footage from the Japanese Special Collection LD where the DVNR is worst because of the resolution differences.
Huh? :o What would be the Japanese SC LD good for, then?
What I meant was I think you can blend "color corrected" footage from the Japanese Special Collection LD with the GOUT better than the SE because of the difference in resolution between the GOUT & SE, the JSC doesn't have DVNR applied to it.
Chewtobacca said:
One thing I am curious about is that when people try to restore the GOUT they never use SE footage. It seems to me that over 90% of the OT is untouched by alterations, so why not use footage from that - color-corrected of course - and just work on restoring the scenes that do differ as much as possible - rather than the whole film.
I think the best way would be to use footage from the Japanese Special Collection LD where the DVNR is worst because of the resolution differences.
I really looking forward to see the results of this, I hope you find some time to finish this great project.
:)
ABC said:
Ok, you'll have this version. Now I'm wondering where it is going because I don't think I'll replace the first one for now, and having the end titles two times on the CD may be a little too heavy... Or if I'm going to put it in a special file for you with an alternate backcover (if needed). What do you think? (everyone is invited of course).
That is very kind of you, an alternate backcover is not necessary. I'm glad to just get the track, in wich way that suits you best;) I know I'm a little late with the suggestions but I noticed you were going to post an improved set so... Thanks in advance:)
"The Rebel Fleet/End Title" is one of my favorite tracks on this score especially the slightly longer 70mm film version located on the SE CD, it was the first time this version was available in its complete form on album that I'm aware of (RSO LP & CD had instead the Concert Suit of "The Imperial March" inserted in the End Title) but unfortunatly it was one of the badly remixed tracks on the SE.
The 35mm film version of Rebel Fleet is combined with a great sounding "70mm End Title" on the Anthology, If you could manage to recreate the complete version with "The Rebel Fleet" from the RSO with the "End Title" from Anthology it would make me really happy;)
Your edit is already a great improvement, It's just the Imperial March bit... Just my wish. Again, thank you for the great job you have done on this.
ABC, when I told you that the "Carbon Freeze" cue's placement on the SE CD is correct, it's both right and wrong.
The music was written for the scene, yes. But was dropped, so it's still an Alternate for the music that follows. So on the SE CD you have two parts of music describing the same scene after each other, it's nothing wrong to have it that way, but I would prefer to have one of them on an alternate version.
Just a thought, sorry for not describing it better.
ABC said:
ABC said:
msycamore said:
You seem to know your Empire score, I just like to point out that "The Rebels Escape" has a minor edit in the end on the Anthology if you have not noticed it. (I'm sure you have)
I think I noticed that one (at the place of a percussion).
Woop !!! I didn't notice at all there was a part missing on the Anthology, my friend ! The force is with me, but I am not a Jedi yet.
But I'm not sure anymore we talk about the same thing... Anyway, it is now complete ! :)
Oh sorry, forgot about that one. Yes that's the edit I was talking about (as I can see in your mixing notes on page 1), I'm glad you fixed it:) also good to see you have included the RSO bit on Training of a Jedi Knight;)
Its placement on the SE is correct, you can even see when he conducted this part to the scene on the BBC documentary "STAR WARS - Music by John Williams". (a very good one, recommend it if you have not seen it)
Good to see you have began work on CD2:)
ABC you have done an amazing job on this! you should be proud of yourself.
Many tracks have never sounded this good in their complete form. I'm really impressed with your editing skill, especially on tracks like "Main Title/The Ice Planet Hoth", "Luke's Nocturnal Visitor" and "City In The Clouds". I don't know how you managed to layer in the LP in some tracks but it sounds beautiful;)
Is the Rebel Base insert in "Vision Of Obi-Wan" really it's correct placement? Its sound natural in your edit, but I've read that it was a transitional cue written for Han's entrance into the Rebel Base when it was decided to drop much of the music of "The Ice Planet Hoth" from the movie. But in the finished movie it was finally tracked with a part from Arrival At Dagobah. So maybe it doesn't have any "correct" placement, I just wondered.
I really recommend you to download this, if you only have listened to The Empire Strikes Back on the SE you haven't heard the score at all.
Thanks for doing this ABC.
ABC said
But I prefer not to think about this restoration for now.
Take your time;)
Thanks! give you feedback later.
The link to the new "City In The Clouds" sample doesn't work:(
"The Asteroid Field" from the RSO CD sounds great! (have not listened to your remix yet)
I'm looking forward to see what you can do with "The Rebel Fleet" ("Finale") on the RSO CD, it's not the best sounding track on the CD, but it's the 70mm film version and it has the original mix unlike the SE. Good luck and keep up the good job!)
Sorry for being confusing, what I meant is that I think those two tracks represents what I think is really great on the SE, it also have the album-takes for most of the tracks (with a more prominent synthesizer etc.) wich I prefer instead of the filmedits that was on the Anthology. So it's really sad that most of it was so badly remixed.
I agree, Anthology version of "Cloud City" is great, the only thing I miss with that one is the choral piece. But that's fixed now with your skill:) About the "Training Of A Jedi Knight" I've listened to it now (had to look for my original SE to compare) I think you have improved it as much that is possible with the source material. I'm not very fond of that album because of the many remixed tracks, it's interesting to hear what you can pull out of it though. If every track had the sound mix of "Mynock Cave" and "The Imperial Probe/Aboard The Executor" on that cd we wouldn't be here;)
By the way, "The Duel" is fantastic!