Thanks for the reply, zombie84.
I think you're right about that photo and I also believe the colortiming is pretty accurate on the GOUT maybe a little saturated in some scenes.
Colortiming comparison:
Bootleg telecine (updated and corrected with the original source)
Japanese Special Collection LD
THX LD/"GOUT"
Special Edition '97
From the documentary The Magic & the Mystery - 1997
Perhaps an unfinished Special Edition sunset or maybe this is how it really looked like in the cinema '97?
Knightmessenger said:
Yeah, the book you're referring to. Isn't that the picture that's missing one of the sun's. It otherwise looks just like the Special Collection screenshot.
It has been discussed that the scene is definitely darker in those areas you mentioned than on pre THX releases. But it was supposed to be shot day for night. I have a good screenshot comparison on another computer but ever since the new software, I haven't been able to properly embed any screenshots into the forum.
A very late reply, I must have missed your post and completely forgot about this ;) Anyway, this was the picture I was talking about:
And you're right, now when I've seen the Japanese Special Collection transfer recently it is more close to it in color than the "GOUT." But I don't know if this picture is any true representation of it's original cinematography and colortiming, I just got very nostalgic when I saw this photo and thought to myself, this is how it's supposed to look. But I guess we'll never know...
also the Canyon scene with Artoo being captured is very bright compared to the "GOUT" release.
captainsolo said:
That's what I've always wondered. The THX95 versions always seemed somewhat superior to the 93 editions but it may just be a marginal difference. Some have claimed that there is no difference at all. Who knows?
I remember reading a review that compared both the Definitive Collection and Faces LD's of the trilogy just before the "GOUT-release", and according to that review, some of the worst DVNR artifacts on the DC set were fixed for the Faces release, It pointed out that, Luke's training with the remote aboard the Millennium Falcon in STAR WARS was badly affected from the digital noise reduction on the Definitive Collection and corrected for the Faces release, I don't know if it's true or not, maybe it was referring to the first press of the DC as it has many documented problems.
One really weird glitch is on every THX95 PAL-VHS I've seen of The Empire Strikes Back, in the chase through the asteroid field every TIE Fighter's laser blasts is suddenly blue instead of green, is it like that on the PAL LD's?
ABC said:
BUNCH OF SAMPLES ADDED. (See list)
Beware, the "Rebel Fleet / End Title" is the old one (it misses the first harp notes announced).
New samples!:) Good to see you add those harps, this is Perfection ;)
ABC said:
Perhaps it's right but what I was trying to say is they have both the same film version parts on 20 to 30 sec, excepted the intro (about ten sec) ... to make it clear: they made three different versions: the Album, the Anthology, the film version.
Ok...I see, I misunderstood you there. That's an Interesting find you did! Still learning new things about this fantastic score :)
There's no reason to hurry. If you do it, it's just a great bonus. The important thing is the music, and if the few samples I've heard of it is any indication, it's looking very promising. So take your time :)
Great idea with the third Disc! Can't wait for the end result. I Hope it's going well for you with the artwork and presentation of the disc's, like the new title of it ;)
ABC said:
I played with the idea once, but these tracks have too different dynamic range.
I don't like so much crossfaded cues, and I even separated "Darth Vader's Trap" from "Departure of Boba Fett" for the same reason , taking the risk to have a bit a rough end for the first one (though I've been able to extend the last note and echo through editing).
The reading of the score is more convenient with separated cues, and I like not to have the movie running into my head when listening if you see what I mean ;)
I understand your reasoning, that's one of the great things with the Anthology, many cues with complete and clean endings...
I'm afraid I haven't edited them together as in the film. However it's easy to fix for yourself, even with the default magnetophone on your computer ! (That's what I used for the 77 SW "soundtrack salvage") :)
...but I prefer some of them crossfaded, I should try it ;)
ABC, are you going to crossfade Rescue From Cloud City/Hyperspace, or do you point me to your film version edit? Just curious.
ABC said:
Btw, the new "Duel" version (I'll change the sample soon), has been accurately pitch corrected with the Anthology, what makes the intro really fit. For info, this means I sped up the track to 0,8%.
I didn't noticed that pitch issue with it, and I still don't hear your edit between them (it's beautifully done), but the pitch correction will make it even better I'm sure :)
... I can see the new "Mynock Cave" still haven't caught your attention, hehe ;)
Have you posted an even newer one...? Your last one sounded fantastic, and I liked your editing choices in it. It really is a warmer feel to the sound in it, just great.
ABC said:
Question: The SW musical journey dvd has "The Asteroid Field" newly remixed from the 24-tracks master tapes by Shawn Murphy.
I know someone who has this dvd but never watched it myself. Is there sfx's or dialogues on that track ?... And even though (perhaps a cool edit in the kind of the concert version can be made), how to rip the PCM track ?
I'm pretty sure it contains some fx and dialogue, but I remember someone on this board made a good dialogue free disc of it with pcm audio a few years ago. If I remember correctly, Goodmusician made good use of it for his Empire score.
ABC said:
:) Thanks, but once again you're wrong ! lol... I haven't uploaded anything new from CD 2 now, and I can't tell myself on wich OE version I used the actual sample as I have (now) three mixes for this cue. It's a difficult one to adapt to the set as it's the cue wich has the more depht.
No I am not, it's new to me ;) I haven't gone through your version 3. completely yet.
Thanks for the upload!
ABC said:
And for what is about compression and reverb, here's surely what I tend to compensate with my EQ as far as I don't use such processes. Always trying to get what is the more natural of course.
Hoping it makes all clear ;)
And I'm glad you don't, I absolutely love your subtle approach to the EQ on these tracks. You're a perfectionist and it shows, I gave your latest "The Duel" a listen and it have never sounded this good before, perfect!!
ABCsaid:
As you can read in my notes, the SE track for "Mynock Cave" have each channel isolated from the other: the instruments from the left sound only on the left and the right ones on the right, what the RSO surely doesn't do. If you sit in a concert hall it would be weird that a wall separe the musicians and so you can't hear the instruments sound melting...
Sorry for the late reply. You're right! forgive my ignorance. I can't believe I've never noticed that, its sounds very artificial, weird...
ABC said:
According to the listing you've posted it's funny to notice how much is left from his work on the OE:
- Ice planet bits: about 20 sec
- Jedi Master Revealed (layered!): 2 min
- ... And perhaps the missing bits from Mynock Cave: about 10 sec
... Tomlinson rules by K.O. in the first round !
Yes, but two of them you cannot get anywhere else ;) and you've done some great improvements on them.
ABC said:
Do you think he's responsible of both the Sountrack and Film versions? Well, that's something I don't quite well unserstand... (If there's a difference I mean)
What I observe is that...
- the original RSO soundtrack gives a strong relief to some instruments that are unheard or spoiled on the Anthology. (ringing instruments, percussions, flutes etc...) and a completely different touch to the sound... So are they still to be called "Tomlinson mixes" on the Anthology ?
- That the SE uses the exact same mixes from the Anthology for the non-Risner tracks (Lucasfilm politics (?): the sheapest, the best).
But I haven't listened the film mixes too carefuly to compare I must say, excepted perhaps the End Titles, wich sounds quite close to the Anthology track (I mean CD2 version, wich sounds different from the other tracks... ).
Conclusion (imo): the RSO version rules.
Well, Tomlinson was the recording engineer for the score, and the original recording of the orchestra is what I think is the blueprint of its sound, so "film mixes" is perhaps a bad description of what I meant, (when all film scores is recorded for a film), when released on album they are of course adjusted for home equipment and Tomlinson's recording mix is the basis for it, no matter how you transfer (remix) it. It just wasn't transfered correctly -96 when they had the opportunity, (Star Wars was great imo.) -93 they hadn't and -80 they released one of the most sophisticated scores ever made at that time. But like the most things related to Star Wars lately it's easier to make $$ instead of showing it proper respect like you do :)
ABC said:
Ok, Risner made something really weird with those tracks... But he's not the only one responsible of the catastrophic SE:
All the Tomlinson mixes are f**ked up by the processing of the remastering: the equalization, possibly compression and many stereo modifications have brought this set to a painful and poor experience.
As you can read in my notes, the SE track for "Mynock Cave" have each channel isolated from the other: the instruments from the left sound only on the left and the right ones on the right, what the RSO surely doesn't do. If you sit in a concert hall it would be weird that a wall separe the musicians and so you can't hear the instruments sound melting... !!! You probably noticed that in my "Ice Planet" edit besides. EDIT: concerning "Mynock Cave", the statement made here looks to be finally true only for the parts that were missing on the RSO recording... Coincidence ?
Then, if Bryan Risner missed the multitracks mixing, Dan Hersh achieved to slaughter the set with his way to handle digital processing !
Nice team !
Yes, Brian Risner's remixes is not the only problem, I just posted it for a good example for one of the issues with it, I'm not saying that Tomlinson's tracks is free from problems, but his original filmmixes are imo. but you're right, that has nothing to do with how they sound on records. But as you know, Risner remixed the 24-track tapes very badly with instruments located in the opposite direction etc. and many of them can never sound great, no matter what you do with them.
OK... I must give Mynock Cave a listen again, I don't remember that.
Switch on your PM
ABC, turn on your PM
ABC said:
msycamore said: by the way, City In The Clouds v.3 are sounding damn good!! Thank you again for your hard work.
I'm glad. "City In The Clouds" v4 sounds as powerful, and is a bit clearer, and is completed with the layers. Anyway, v.4 blows my previous work, what I didn't dare saying when I released v.3 if you remember. ;)
And guess what is the last track I'm currently re-editing ?... The very very first one I made and posted here !!! Lol
Duel, Main Title perhaps? anyway I'm looking forward to it;)
ABC said:
- The real problem with the SE version is that the high frequencies are too short, so lifted with abuse. That's how I see the matter. There are a bunch of good things in the SE, but they are always spoiled being to short and so, virtually extended. For comparison the "Aboard The Executor" track is incredibly superior to the whole set, you don't have idea. It has quite the same potential than "The Battle in the Snow" from the RSO wich is the best on it considering the thousand ways you can make it sound. I really calmed them down on the OE so rich they were.
I agree with you, "Aboard The Executor" is wonderful and really powerful next to the other tracks on that album (one of my favorites, it's sad it isn't in the movie itself). I understand it must be very hard if you have to tone down the great sounding tracks to better match the inferior ones, if you look at this chart of the remixed cues on the SE for example, it's not hard to see why the SE is so inconsistent.
The Empire Strikes Back Remixes
Disc Track Cue Title Notes
1 1 20th Century Fox Fanfare Brian Risner remix
1 2a Main Title Brian Risner remix
1 2b The Ice Planet Hoth Brian Risner remix
1 3a The Wampa's Lair Eric Tomlinson film mix
1 3b Vision of Obi-Wan Eric Tomlinson film mix
1 3c Snow Speeders Take Flight Eric Tomlinson film mix
1 4a The Imperial Probe Eric Tomlinson film mix
1 4b Aboard the Executor Eric Tomlinson film mix
1 5a Ion Cannon Brian Risner remix
1 5b Imperial Walkers Brian Risner remix
1 5c Beneath the AT-AT Brian Risner remix
1 5d Escape in the Millennium Falcon Brian Risner remix
1 6 The Asteroid Field Brian Risner remix
1 7 Arrival on Dagobah Eric Tomlinson film mix
1 8 Luke's Nocturnal Visitor Brian Risner remix
1 9a Han Solo and the Princess (Start - 2:22) Brian Risner remix
1 9b Vader and the Emperor (2:22 - End) Eric Tomlinson film mix
1 10a Jedi Master Revealed Brian Risner remix
1 10b Mynock Cave Eric Tomlinson film mix
1 11a The Training of a Jedi Knight Brian Risner remix
1 11b The Magic Tree Brian Risner remix
2 1 The Imperial March Brian Risner remix
2 2 Yoda's Theme Brian Risner remix
2 3 Attacking a Star Destroyer Eric Tomlinson film mix
2 4 Yoda and the Force Brian Risner remix
2 5a Imperial Starfleet Deployed Eric Tomlinson film mix
2 5b City in the Clouds Brian Risner remix
2 6 Lando's Palace Brian Risner remix
2 7 Betrayal at Bespin Eric Tomlinson film mix
2 8 Deal with the Dark Lord Eric Tomlinson film mix
2 9a Carbon Freeze Eric Tomlinson film mix
2 9b Darth Vader's Trap Eric Tomlinson film mix
2 9c Departure of Boba Fett Eric Tomlinson film mix
2 10 The Clash of Lightsabers Brian Risner remix
2 11a Rescue from Cloud City Eric Tomlinson film mix
2 11b Hyperspace Brian Risner remix
2 12a The Rebel Fleet Brian Risner remix
2 12b End Title Brian Risner remix
ABC said:
...and to finish what I said in my notes: "Jedi Master Revealed" has been obviously composed to match the beginning of "Mynock Cave". Surely a safety from J. Williams who put in reserve a lot of his music on this score to allow re-cuts. This was particularly obvious to me when I worked on the film version edit.
Yes, I never doubted you here, I'm with you on this one, they both blend very good with each other. Both ways are fine to me:)
ABC said:
The first reason is the sound, indeed I tried to get rid of the harshness of the cue before and each time I tried to low that, the sound was dying (refer to the OE). The only way I found to improve this track was to make it shine (the "Salvage" version). Now I've done another mix for the bonus track of it and as it was better I wondered if it may be edited with the RSO version... After listening both my answer is: no way.
The second and third reasons are that the first rush in "Mynock Cave" breaks the flow (it breaks the surprise of the second rush, what always bothered me)
Fair enough, your version of it will be a very good alternative for me, if it doesn't sound to rude;) anyway, thanks for the reply.
ABC said:
msycamore,
To end that confusion once for all, I just noticed the Anthology album (CD2) End Title has not the tracked Imperial March bit, but is made of the Alt March beginning of the original album + the film version Alt March...
Crazy !
Yeah, both the film and album version seems to share about 9sec of the concert arrangement.
You have convinced me with the Jedi Master Revealed, its sounds pretty good;) Mynock Cave was one of the few tracks on the SE album I thought sounded quite impressive, a little harch, but it had the original rich and balanced Tomlinson mix. The editing in this one is professionally done and it actually works without the march before the cave but I don't understand your omission later on, can you please explain why you think it's a wrong ad, (maybe you have already) I know you have worked hard on this one and that you are finished with it, I just want to know your reason behind it. Overall very good:) by the way, City In The Clouds v.3 are sounding damn good!! Thank you again for your hard work.
ABC said:
msycamore said:
Can I ask you why you choose to work with "Jedi Master Revealed" from the SE? to me it sound much better on the Anthology's track "City In The Clouds"...
"Jedi Master Revealed" looks better on the Anthology at first glance, but after re-EQ of both, seeing what they were made of, the SE was better quality, had more substance and a better depht. Here again the Antho is more "shiny" but it's only a "package", and is also far much noisy than the SE once the highs were cut on both.
one more thing, will you include the 20TH Century Fox fanfare? (John Williams & LSO recorded the new version for this film after all) just curious.
I recently borrowed the first print of the SE to my brother and so I rode indeed the fanfare has been especially re-recorded by the LSO on ESB... So I guess it should be included. I always skip that track when listening a SW score which has it ! :)
... I can see Mynock Cave didn't strike your ears that much... Wel, well.
Oh, I missed one of your new samples, I was just going through your notes on the first page, I see your reason now behind your choice of Jedi Master Revealed, downloading it right now;) If you include the Fox Fanfare may I suggest the Anthology one (the SE one is missing one second, if I remember correctly and is badly remixed).
Main Title/The Ice Planet Hoth, as before this track sounds so powerful when you compare it with the SE it's not even funny, great editing and I think you have improved the SE portion so it blends better with the other sources.
The Wampa's Lair, very good! This one is flawless, love your subtle approach with the LP layers, when looking at your notes, what you have done must be a pain!!
The Rebels Escape Again, This one really comes to life and gets better dynamic with your equalization and LP layer and I think it shows the most improvement of your new samples, beautifully done with the missing bit of music restored.
Can I ask you why you choose to work with "Jedi Master Revealed" from the SE? to me it sound much better on the Anthology's track "City In The Clouds", one more thing, will you include the 20TH Century Fox fanfare? (John Williams & LSO recorded the new version for this film after all) just curious. Anyway, can't wait to listen to the complete score with your treatment done to it, great job!)