msycamore

EmpireSB said:

What about the 70mm cut of the film?  Is the quality of the film mix the same at the 70 mm?  I've read that the 35mm cut was rushed which probably explains why the "Departure of Boba Fett" cue was hacked up.  I haven't seen the 70 mm cut of film (with the exception of the Special Edition cuts, which were based on the 70mm cut) and I don't know if copies of the 70mm cut have been officially released.

It is the 70mm cut of the film that was rushed out for the premiere, several effect shots where missing and unfinished, and it had a slightly different editing as well as soundmix with different dialogue in some places.

I don't know if it's true or not, I've not seen the 70mm cut myself but I have also heard that the SE used the 6-track stereo mix as the source for the remix in -97. Can someone who remember, confirm this?

I don't understand what you mean by "if the quality of the film mix is the same on the 70mm?" I presume it was just edited differently to the 70mm version of the film. I actually like the absence of music in the "Departure of Boba Fett" scene in the film. Unfortunately, the 70mm cut has never been made available, but it would be fantastic if a bootleg of it would show up some day as I doubt it will be released officially by Lucasfilm.

ABC said:

msycamore said:

Ok, a serious question, how much of this set do you consider is finished? I can't wait to hear some more...

 Aha. I'm actually in the final selection (for best EQ's) of the tracks for CD3. I think I have all needed for CD1. CD2 is the most difficult: I still have to choose the final versions for tracks from 4 to 7 (and even 8, Darth Vader's Trap), and that's all.

But these last tracks have such a sound that it requires a lot of concentration to catch the subtleties where there are not so many, and I must say this part of the score is a bit exhausting to listen too much... It's like: "how do you want it corrupted ? That way, or the other ?". But I don't want to choose and close the case just to get rid of that. That 's why it takes a lot of time, not mentionning the booklet I fill from time to time.

I'll send you CD3 when ready.

Thanks! As I said before don't hurry, the quality is more important.

Ok, thanks for checking, LexX.

I think it has been some misunderstanding here. He offered me in private some time ago a chance to get a disc in advance for some things I sent to him but I said I could wait til the whole set was finished, but yesterday my desire got to big.

Dark_Jedi if I understand it correctly I believe ABC hasn't completely decided yet if he is going to share it with everyone because of the lack of feedback. And I understand him, he has worked like a horse with this and the only thing he demands from us, is a little feedback, that's not much to ask.

I think it's sad that his work hasn't received more feedback, because I think it could help make the Set become even better. I don't know why it hasn't, but I think many people are negative against this kind of "restoration jobs" and don't believe you can get quality from it if it's not there in the first place, and that is true, but one key to this "restoration" is that ABC has combined different quality sources very sucessfully and that is a difference, he is to the Empire score what the The XØ Project was to the trilogy, the only difference is that he will finish it;)

ABC said:

... But for what is to call me an expert, just know that I'm unable to talk with a sound enginer so my vision for sound is personal. I have - justly - more a visual or aesthetic way to work with the sound, and I had to learn a lot of things for ESB I may forget soon enough ! I'm just working a piece of Art. My most precious skill for that is observation.

And what an observation that is:) Enough with the flattery! When is this set finished?;)

Ok, a serious question, how much of this set do you consider is finished? I can't wait to hear some more...

ABC said:

msycamore said:

To my ears the speed/pitch seems wrong in your latest "The Duel". I'm sorry to say this but I prefer your previous one.

 Possible you ears are too much used to the previous version. I'll check against the movie, it'll be easy to know and to have it back if needed.

 That may actually be the case, if so I'm ashamed ;)

ABC said:

 Yes, it is the exact same transfer, and it is the transfer wich is missed up. Besides we both know that they didn't use any settings (almost) to improve the tracks on the Anthology.

I tryed e.v.e.r.y. thing you can imagine, like layering the SE tracks on the Anthology to borrow some frequencies wich were rendered in an other way. The SE looks to be a little better on a few points from time to time but in the end they have the same blocked sound and potential.

I see, when I read what you're doing I'm glad you don't have given up on this, as long as you enjoy what you're doing and it's not starting to feel like a work for you...

ABC said:

 CD3 is the real gem on this set, and having listened to some classical and world music next to it two days ago, it left nothing to be desired next to them. Actually its sonicality blew them all. I mean: it's more than a salvage ! ;)

...but I guess this is what keeps you going, I can imagine the end results are rewarding :)

ABC said:

As a sidenote, you don't have idea how much tracks from the Anthology are corrupted and clipped ! The "Recording the Star Wars Saga" doc doesn't give the whole statement about ESB.

I'm sure it doesn't, but it is a very interesting and well written document, but you have lived with this score quite some time now, so you are also an expert here;) Have you got any reply from him?

ABC said:

Not mentionning the convertion of the Tomlinson mixes as 2-channel stereo tracks: did you ever notice there's almost all the orchestra sounding on the left with mostly isolated instruments and a far echo of the bunch on the right...? (Looks like it's mainly the left channel wich sounds saturated, wich is clipped and recorded too strong, as it looks to be mostly this one containing the 50hz tone for the film synchro too).

Then I can't sincerely tell if my stereo corrections on the Anthology are a real "restoration", or just a compensation. Anyway, sure it's better and sounds fair.

No, I haven't noticed this. Interesting, there seems to be no end to how many f***ups they've done to this score!

ABC said:

msycamore said:

Yes, I've noticed the problems with that track, this must really be a headache for you! But I think you have done some wonders to it already.

 Thanks. However I only corrected the stereo on "carbon Freeze" and "Departure" on the previous OE versions, I haven't dared touching "Darth Vader's Trap" before as I wasn't aware enough of these problems.

If you listen the comparison sample posted above your left ear will be pleased to discover what is to be heard from this side of the orchestra. It really changes the cue.

... And yes, that's a headache to go back because you realise you missed something that you haven't caught before. You have no idea ! ;) ... I think some tracks have seen more than 30 versions since the beginning !

Ahh, sorry for my sloppy writing;) my comment was directed to the sample above wich I think shows quite an improvement. But you're right, I have not exactly noticed what the real problem with this track actually was before, (just the clipping and dynamic range) I understand that you're working with the best one but do the SE version of this track suffers from exactly the same problems? They're perhaps from the same source, just curious.

30 versions! Well, this shows what an incredible job you are doing to this score and it will be very interesting to hear the difference when you are finished with it. Again, thanks for saving this score! and for the album you sent me. :) 

ABC said:

"Darth Vader's Trap" has its right channel completely f..ked up with over modulation and clipping, and is around 4 to 6db louder than it should on some parts (next to 1 or 2db for other tracks). It also misses medium frequencies on the same channel and I had to re-EQ it isolately. So yes, for this one I had to take it back fom the beginning.

The difference then is that the OE version of this track was equalized segment by segment considering the background hiss difference where in fact the real problem from wich was due these differences was the balance for each of these parts. The new one has been corrected first and equalized as a whole track and there's no more background noise difference... It's sounds the same everywhere.

Yes, I've noticed the problems with that track, this must really be a headache for you! But I think you have done some wonders to it already.

ABC said:

The "recentering" consists in lifting the volume of the lower channel. I don't degrade the quality of the track, nor its sound but indeed most of the time the left and right channels don't give exactly the same results through EQ because of their orchestration. I took back a lot of tracks from the beginning recently thinking I would have better results if I recentered the stereo first and I found out that it was not necessarily the case, so no worries.

A precision on this: I don't work from the OE3 equalized tracks, but most of the time from my first mixings: A basic equalization meant to remove the more obvious abuses or noise. And also I can balance a track and keep my EQ settings as filters that are not definitively applyed on the track.

However if I balance a track that is definitive what is rare, the lifting is generally too low to really affect the final result, or when it does it always gives a better one, as for "The Duel".

... But you're right to ask, one must pay attention to these little details.

 

Oh, now I understand what you mean by "recentering". Sorry, I was a little confused over what this exactly meant, thanks for your detailed explanation. I listenened again to your new samples with higher volume as I couldn't do that earlier or I would have woked up the neighbours, and I can't believe this is actually sourced from the official CD's, it sounds so different! in a really good way. This score is in good hands ;)

LexX said:

The tape had subtitles so I think no one outside this country is interested. :P But I also have a UK version of that rental tape, if I ever get to transfer it. Too bad they are in mono (no, not the mono versions!) even though covers claim that they're in stereo. I also have the first TESB and ROTJ rental tapes but I don't know if they are any different from later releases. I would transfer all of them if I had the devices but I don't.

Ah ok, do you know if the tape contains the original greedo subtitles behind the foreign language? If so, would you care to post a pic of it? I don't know if it's true or not but I believe rental tapes actually was of better quality than the usual tapes, to stand up better against wear and tear. Anyway, they're cool to have. ;)

LexX said:

Indeed it is, no problems at all except the line which goes on the bottom, otherwise it's as good as new. Last summer I copied it on DVD. :)

 Is that DVD something you would be willing to share a copy of?

"The Revelation" and "The Imperial March" sounds very natural and good. Great job, thanks for posting them!

I'm just wondering (maybe a dumb question, as I don't have the knowledge about this sort of thing) but when you say you have recentered the stereo on some tracks don't you degrade the quality of the audiofile if you work with the previous equalized one?

To my ears the speed/pitch seems wrong in your latest "The Duel". I'm sorry to say this but I prefer your previous one.

A few pictures taken inside a theater in '77, posted a few years ago by Belbucus in the The XØ Project thread:

The pictures above where all taken with the same camera settings, which suggests that the scenes in the canyon appeared quite dark.

I see, the bright JSC transfer look similar to the pics above, great to see that the tape seems to be in pretty good condition though after all these years! 

Yeah, the GOUT Jedi has a weird blue cast on the stars, good to know it isn't on that LD:)

Baronlando said:

it's amazing how the movie can look so much shittier and so much better at the same time. It's like a Doc Brown Paradox.

 :) I know what you mean, It's really frustrating but the Doc Brown Paradox is apparent whatever version you watch, every release has some sort of flaw the other doesn't, you have to pick your favorite video-flaw;)

The -83 rental tape! that is an old one:) Thanks for the trouble. It actually comes very close to the bootleg telecine in color from what I can see, it is pretty much the same on the vintage doc The Making of STAR WARS also. Then I strongly believe what zombie84 already said, that it's probably more accurate or closer in color pallette of the original -77 print in just that scene than the THX/GOUT version is.

Thank you guy's for the response, just as I thought the -97 LD looks nothing like it, maybe it looked like that in the cinema -97, but it could also be an untampered with restored original scene from the film as some footage in the doc is not yet altered but very crisp and clear in it's appearence vs the original footage we have (original explosion of the death star from ROTJ is still there etc.)

I agree, the photo from the book is very much desaturated, it looks almost sepia like in tone but I fell in love with the beautiful detail in the picture and started dreaming of how a fully restored original STAR WARS could look if it was treated with respect.

ABC, there seems to be problems with a few links to the new samples:(

zombie84 said:

Also, I have concluded that the 1993 photo is a scan from the film. Its too perfect a replica of the exact framing of the screen. That its a hair's width open in visual information tells me it is a scan as well, an open matte scan of the film itself. Which is interesting. I don't know how much I should read into the coloring, but it conflicts with all the other material I have seen. I mean, if the Japanese LD is overlit by my estimation, that means the true print should have more saturation, and the photo has half the saturation, not more.

Sorry, I don't think I fully understand you here, when you're saying "the 1993 photo" do you mean that the photo in the book is a scan from the film, made in -93? Anyway, I don't have your technical knowledge but I find this very interesting if it's an actual scan of the film itself.

I have checked various Binary Sunset footage I'm aware of for colortiming like an obsessed geek (wich I am;) that I have in my possession, and came across this one from the Fox TV documentary, Star Wars: The Magic & the Mystery from -97 and almost all of the footage in that documentary seems to be taken from the new print made for the SE as the program is about that anniversary, but if I remember correctly, this footage looks very different on the -97 SE video release. As I don't own the SE, can someone confirm this?

EDIT: picture moved to the top of the page.

zombie84 said:

There was a telecine (I think) made in 1977 from a theatrical print that was recorded onto VHS as a street bootleg. I saw it on Demonoid years ago. There was a widescreen and a fullscreen version, I'm not sure if they are two different recordings or not. I think it was made in the projection room. The color and exposure is all wonky because it has been duped on VHS a million times. But it might give indication if the actual release version was close to the photo--and what is shown in the Making of book as well--or if the Japanes or the GOUT (read: more vibrant color) is how the scene looked, if there is any color left on the VHS for that shot.

Ah very interesting, have to check the info about the version I got. It was the widescreen telecine;)

zombie84 said:

I would say that the SE from 1997 might make for a good comparison since it was color-timed to match the 1977 technicolor print, but certain scenes were tweaked to look a bit different, so it's impossible to say if that wasn't another instance. The R2 canyon scene, for example, is colored differently in the SE, and may have been a development based on tweaking from 1993, if in fact it was tweaked in 1993.

Yes, I remember the colors was very good in the cinema in -97 but sadly when released on home video The Special Edition looked so bad especially in this binary sunset scene, it looked like someone had put a sock in front of the lens!:( But memories is just that, memories. I don't know, maybe it looked like that in the cinema as well.

zombie84 said:

Now, the argument here could be made that the Japanese version was based off a foreign print that didn't have the correct coloring in the first place, or that the telecine was done by a foreign company that didn't have access to how it ought to have looked, which the DE corrects. But I'm not sure how much merit that has. I have a 1984 VHS sitting on my shelf beside me, but no VHS player. Since this version pre-dates the 1985 IP that was used for every home video release since, it might be very useful, if only I could run it.

It could very much be the case as many movies on early home video in the eighties looked very bright in similar scenes (shot day for night etc.) as you said. It would be interesting to see how the -84 vhs tape compare, too bad you don't have a player:( Anyway, the scene with artoo in the canyon was shown at the 1978 academy awards when they showed clips from the movie, is there any chance to get a hold of this show in good quality somehow?

I tracked down this comparison from the The XØ Project thread, there really is a huge difference.

I don't know wich bootleg you mean zombie84? but I have Moth3r's widescreen bootleg (I don't know what the source for it is) and from what I can see it's somewhere in between those last pictures I posted, the sky is a little more pink than purple in it.