msycamore

Exactly, I'd be very surprised if those two musical transitions to the Imperial fleet were not tracked in the 70mm version, editing and music assembler on the SE albums, Michael Matessino didn't mention those when he listed some of the differences between the cuts in the Film Score Monthly magazine back in '97, not that I think he is the final answer to it, but I strongly think he would have mentioned it, especially when he points out a different Tie Fighter sound effect in just one of those scenes after the "magic tree scene."

The 35mm Dolby stereo mix for Empire sounds very natural and good IMO. If the mix on the '97SE is anything like the 70mm in the dialogue, the 35mm sound so much more polished and improved to me. Just listen to the small subtleties in the 35mm mix wich gives it a more natural and documentary feel, sfx sound intrude on dialogue in some scenes, volume of the dialogue reflects the distance were the actors are on screen etc.

An odd thing is that the 70mm version of Jedi used the "Main Title" recording from Empire, according to Michael Matessino in that article.

Good idea with the samples ABC, makes for an easy comparison. Have you managed to get some good results from the Murphy remixed Musical journey DVD tracks?

I also believe that the 35mm Dolby stereo was done first, hairy_hen. It makes no sense to remove certain sound effects in it if it was the second mix and then put them back in again in the mono, like the sound in the trench you described and later the exploding Tie Fighter wich is completely silent in the 35mm. ("but the first mix also had the most errors.")

Anyway, your test sample sounds great to me, good job!

hairy_hen said:

Since the 70mm mix featured surround sound, a 5.1 track would probably be the best way to release this, but certainly stereo or 2.1 versions can be made available if desired, as well.

I appreciate your encouragement!  It's definitely closing in on completion . . .

That is great! Thanks for answering my questions, I don't notice that added water noise in the '93 version either.

One thing I've been wondering lately is wich of the theatrical mixes was done first, 70mm six-track stereo or the 35mm Dolby stereo?

From the book "The Making Of Star Wars":

The first mix sent out with the film, at the last possible second, was the six-track Dolby stereo version, but the first mix also had the most errors. Next up was the two-track stereo, wich was derived from the six-track, yet there was still no time at that stage to make any changes. "I asked Steve Katz to do something," Burtt says, "but they were all too afraid to mess with it, 'cause the deadline was so close-the whole system with the Dolby was kind of an experiment, and they didn't want me to tamper with it."

From the '04 SE DVD audio commentary Ben Burtt says:

...the first mix done was a two-channel stereo Dolby mix wich hadn't been done before, it was a new process. That mix was done first because we were actually making prints and testing them out, and getting theaters to tune up their equipments required that mix was done first. After that was done, then a six-track stereo mix was done for the 70mm release of the film and of course going back and mixing the film a second time, one make changes, you take things a little further you've learned from the first mix of the movie and you now go and make all your changes in the next mix wich was the six-track...

This info really confuses me, I always thought the 35mm Dolby mix was done first but the 70mm prints with the six-track was sent out and heard by the public first. Can someone please explain this?

Baronlando said:

I was just assuming the article was accurate (about it being green in 1983).

Yeah, that article should have read '93 not '83 but then their whole SE campaign wouldn't have been so effective. ;)

Baronlando said:

...So this was actually changed but not in 97 or 04, it was done in 83, (maybe for a second wave of prints that summer? Or after it was too late for 70mm?)

I assume this is the scene you're talking about:

But why do you say it was changed back in '83? Is it not just a screwup on the '93 remaster, just like the green lightsaber in SW-SE?

I really like how Lucasfilm describes all the changes done to the trilogy in these comparison pictures ;) like some propaganda for how really good the new cuts are, (nothing wrong with this pic description though) the one who wrote this, do he actually think the films looked like old LD masters in the cinema, and I still cannot understand how these '04 tranfers got so praised in reviews at the time of its release.

:) Classic promo picture! I knew you would love it, if not on the cover, maybe you could place it on the page in the booklet where the "Asteroid Field" track is.

hairy_hen said:

Okay, so far I'm about half done replacing the altered sound effects.  I think the extra TIE fighter blasts during the quad laser battle will be the most difficult, because the whole scene has one continuous and prominent music cue.  I try to keep the 35mm segments as brief as possible, because I want to retain as much dynamic range from the '93 version as I can, but necessarily any replacements will be somewhat compromised in that respect.  I can partially compensate by selectively raising the volume, but it's always going to fall short of the original in that respect.  The sound quality of the 35mm mix has noticeably lower fidelity, too, but that's the price that must be paid for the removal of inauthentic sounds.  Thus far I think I've done pretty well disguising the inserts and making the transitions unnoticeable, so it shouldn't be much of a problem.

Already this far in the process! I'm really excited about how this will turn out, are you undoing the alterations made to the '93 remix by listening to what I think was Belbucus Comparison DVD or the listed alterations of it made in this thread below or by really good knowledge of it?

http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/70mm-mix-to-93-mix-comparison/topic/6501/

The reason why I'm asking this is because I've never heard this disc, and are wondering if the quality is good enough so you can actually hear how the music is mixed on the 70mm in this Tie Fighter attack scene you're describing above, the music sounds so differently mixed in this scene and also in the end credits of the 35mm Dolby Stereo compared to the Mono mix and '93 remix, I don't know how to describe it, almost an echoing sound, just curious. Also, is the dynamic range on the '85 LD remaster any better than the original stereo?

hairy_hen said:

Satanika said he would take care of upmixing when it's done, so a 5.1 version will be available.  I believe he used the ATSurround plugin for Foobar2000, which is probably pretty similar to Prologic II.  I can't wait to hear this thing when it's completed.  :)

And neither can I :) will you also make the 2.0 or 2.1 available? Thanks for doing this!

ABC said:

msycamore said:

Yeah, I like both the SE and your previous effort with it;)

Less than a half was from the SE. But I really compared for this one and indeed a few tracks were better to taken from the SE.

Oh, a little misunderstanding, what I wanted to say is that I'm pretty happy with both the SE and your previous effort with the Star Wars Score in the form of the Sound Salvage. Sorry, I will not derail this thread any further. ;)

hairy_hen said:

Sometimes I almost feel like I'm nitpicking the 1993 version by doing this, because many of the added effects are innocuous or contribute in a positive way to the overall sound.  But at the same time, eliminating the additions brings it more in line with the way I remember it sounding, growing up with the '85 mix on vhs.  And a few of the additions really were unnecessary, so I'm not sorry to see those go.

It's not nitpicking IMO. As you said, the -93 soundeffects really stands out sometimes no matter how good the additions are, just like the added crap in the SE film. If it ain't broke, dont fix it! The three Academy awarded soundmixes from 1977 deserves to be preserved, it's a part of the movie! Most video releases of films doesn't even include the original tracks as an alternative... a really disturbing trend.

Looking forward to hear some more from it, love your dedication.

ABC said:

msycamore said:

The official Album art looks best I think...

... The RSO ? Yeah, I tend to think so.

 Yes, the RSO LP art is very fitting IMO.

... it's inevitable (using Jedi mind trick on you) :)

Oh yeah, but I'll finish it in a few years. But I already did it once, mmmhh ?

Yeah, I like both the SE and your previous effort with it;) I wasn't so serious about it, but with the experience you have now and your recent wonders with Empire it could possibly be even better. But is it really worth it? I don't know... but for the time being, I will enjoy this fantastic Empire restoration!

The official Album art looks best I think, but you should use the Imperial prison of Alderaan artwork for your upcoming STAR WARS restoration album;) you know you will have to do an improved one, it's inevitable (using Jedi mind trick on you) :)

Actually, I'm quite happy with the sound of Star Wars as it is already.

ABC said:

msycamore said:

I must say I love the alternate mix on "The Rebels Escape" with its louder layer, both are very good, but I think this one is the winner, I'm starting to see what you mean by saying CD3 is the real gem ;) Powerful & dynamic! (...)

 Ok, so here's the deal about this track (what withdraws my last thoughts about it)...

CD1 will have "The Rebel Escapes" version without the RSO LP layer.

... (Edit)

CD1 will finally have the lower layered track.

CD3 will provide the version with the louder LP layer as I've been able to render this special mix in all its... "awesomeness" ?

 

... If you didn't get my attention on the sample of this track I may have not noticed I posted a better version than on my actual rough CD3 (a long story...) Indeed I somehow lost the settings of the sample version. lol ! This one allowed me to verify than it could sound more natural. The last EQ's I tried on it may be even better. Let's see.

I've listened to them again, and I must say I love it in both renditions but I agree, CD1 version sounds more natural somehow. But I see you're on it ;)

That's an interesting observation Baronlando, it seems that the THX mastering maybe had a strange effect on the masters, several laser blasts from the TIE's in Empire has very soft almost yellow colors instead of green when chasing the Falcon and is clear blue in the PAL version and the lights on the panel behind C-3PO's oil bath in Star Wars is blue instead of green in some shots or vice versa. A little nitpicking perhaps, but it shows that these video masters also has some color glitches, even if they're overall very good in colors in comparison to other transfers.

Great idea! Would love a recreation of it, sounds pretty good so far!

ABC said:

msycamore said:

I must say I love the alternate mix on "The Rebels Escape" with its louder layer, both are very good, but I think this one is the winner...

 

 The most difficult part of the work is the final step: to choose the versions that fit the most together (and the more natural) in a way your eyes won't pop out from their orbit while listening to the score...

Among the many versions I have for "The Rebels Escape" actually, four of them are the winners and this alternate mix with louder layer, though it sounds quite good (and more !) as an isolated track, doesn't sound as natural as it seems next to the two lower layered mixes I have. It sounds a bit too much like if you listened to it through a huge horn or a seashell, notably because of the extension of the general echo through the RSO mix with its reverb superposed to the different way I found to retrieve/render somehow the "missing informations" on the film mix. All this is a question of tight equilibrium.

So from the samples, this is the most unsure track to be used as this in the set. But I don't know yet...

Oh, I really should compare them again then, maybe I was just fooled by the new powerful layer, but as you know by now, I've listened more to the CD1 version now and you heard what I said about that one;)

Well, the activation link sent to me through email showed up as a high security risk to open on my computer. I don't know, maybe that's nothing to worry about?

I just wanted to thank you for the incredible job you've done on this book. I wanted to post this on your site but the registration link I got seems unsafe, so I chickened out;) Anyway, I've read the book that was available on your site a few years ago and my interest in Star Wars that was starting to fade at that time got in fact new life by it, the book confirmed all the things I've thought and felt all these years but started to doubt on, so thank you for that and a late congratulation for getting it published. I just bought a copy of it:)

I also love your great articles on your site, very cool that you managed to get response from Marcia for your latest one.

Looking good ABC!

Beautiful artwork on that one, it actually exist three variations of it but I understand you want to use the Album version on this, other wise I have the original one sheet in hi-res, if it is to any help. I also love his famous JAWS poster.

I must say I love the alternate mix on "The Rebels Escape" with its louder layer, both are very good, but I think this one is the winner, I'm starting to see what you mean by saying CD3 is the real gem ;) Powerful & dynamic! Somehow I missed that sample before. Thank you.

xhonzi said:

It was the Episode subtitle on the 1978 re-release and all of the home video releases.  Not that that necessarily changes your answers, but the subtitle was around for all but one year of the 33 year history of "that movie."  It's not like George invented it for the Special Editions or for the Prequels.

 

 It was actually added on the 1981 re-release

EmpireSB said:

I've heard some alternate sound clips that were used in the 70mm cut of the film such as the "You're lucky you don't taste very good" line, but I'm sure it captured from a source other than the 70mm cut.

As far as the quality goes for the 70mm... what I was asking was if the same soundtrack masters were used for both the 70mm cut of the film and 35mm cut of the film?  Why was the 35mm version edited differently than the 70mm version?  The only reason I don't like the "Departure of Boba Fett" scene in the 35mm cut is because the music cue was hacked up and it ended abruptly.  That always bothered me, but it is nice to watch the scene without music, at least the latter part of it.

I'm pretty sure they used the same master, I would be very surprised if they did more than one master edit of the score, I'm not an expert on how this things worked but maybe you are being confused by previous posts in this thread for an example: "The 35mm magnetic film mixes". As I understand it, it was common in those days to record the music to 35mm magnetic film as well as tape, some would run tape and film, others were done only on film but I've read that the mag film was a better quality choice. On STAR WARS it was recorded directly to magnetic film during the sessions this was not done on Empire, instead 8-track & 24-track tapes were made, (so I'm not confusing you, the 6-track is derived from the 8-track with track 8 containing a 50Hz tone used for film sync and track 7 empty for avoidance of cross-talk between the tone and music tracks) and once the master edits was done on Empire the 6-channel film mixes was transferred to 35mm magnetic film for conformance with the picture. Sorry but that's all the info I have.

Why the 35mm cut of the film's score was edited differently I don't know. (besides the ending scenes that were recut) I'm not so sure it was until I hear some proof, because I find it strange that those musical differences in the SE was tracked in the 35mm cut when they had much more time to work on that release, but who knows? Lucas has done some bad choices in the years since then ;)

ABC said: 

Also the one I'm using has been used since 1980 (even apart from the SW logo that surrounds it):

 

You're right, now I remember, that's the one used on the old Making of The Empire Strikes Back Journal by Alan Arnold also, and I still think it's looking ugly;) but I agree with your decision on your design of the cover as it doesn't look so good in that way in the pic you posted.

I was just thinking the same thing, I'm really fond of the classic logos. In fact it always bother me to see the badly transformed letters in the Empire logo when they straightened it down, it will maybe be hard to fit it in that angle position with your layout but you can always let it lay down in that position if you know what I mean ;) that's how it was used sometimes in the old days. Just a suggestion.

If you want a hi-res of it, let me know. (it's the original hand made one, not a re-creation)

Looking good so far! I thought you were joking when you said you was working on a 40 page booklet, nice. ;)