msycamore

zombie84 said:

This is an obvious question...

...but do we know that the 16mm version Puggo transfered has the same subs as the 35mm version? I assume they just did a straight dupe from the 35mm source, but since this was actually made for commercial sale and was re-edited, there is always the distant possibility that they re-burned the subs for this version, just as they did for the VHS versions. Was Puggo's 16mm dupe ever checked against the 1977 telecine bootleg? I just assume someone did, but I never actually saw this mentioned anywhere.

I've checked them against the telecine and they're a perfect match in positioning, you cannot make it out if it uses exactly the same font as the quality of the transfer is very bad on it but it looks very much like it and I would be suprised if they just changed the font on the 16mm, so I'm 99% sure it's authentic but it's a very valid question though. You can see caps of the telecine if you follow the link I posted on top of this page.

zombie84 said:

msycamore said:

zombie84 said:

The improvements aren't necessary but they aren't unnecessary either IMO. The way I see is that it's just different flourishes and accents but the song remains the same. Burtt used to say that because a lot of the mix was actually done "live", each time they did a pass it was its own performance, and that's sort of the attitude I take towards the mono vs stereo. It's like when you see a band perform live, each concert you go to the songs will be technically different than the last time and with little improvs and modifications and even some mistakes, and some you like and others you miss from last time.

That is what is said everytime the film is changed basically. And I can appreciate that, if we always have an alternative. (in this case the mono mix have ironically been restored by a fan;) that's one of the reason why I went to see it in the cinema '97. Don't take this wrong, I love the mono mix of SW and I appreciate a well made mono mix far more than a flashy modern made 5.1 mix made for just the sake of it as many films are made today. I just think it wasn't necessary when I compare it with the stereo mix. IMO. it was already perfect.

I think it's scary when movie enthusiast are very concerned about authentic color-timing, picture-quality etc. and forget that the sound of the film is half of the experience. Just look at every blu-ray on the market today and you can count the original mixes that went with them on one hand, compare that with regular music CD's. You would have an uproar if it were the same.

Very true, although I'm not sure how that relates to the mono-stereo mix issue since they are both original sound mixes from the original theatrical release and are therefore equally important from the standpoint of posterity.

It doesn't, it was just my thoughts wandering at the moment. Maybe it was a little unfair of me to say that the Mono mix wasn't necessary, I think it has some moments but overall I prefer the stereo mixes, I also think it has to do which mix you were able to hear first. Like you said, every moment there's a different sound it sticks out.

The funny thing is that Dolby Stereo was designed to be Mono-compatible. So in a way it was unnecessary if you doesn't care about the actual audio content.

Yeah, I posted some caps in Mielr's thread a while back:

http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Has-anyone-done-a-pure-04-DVD-GOUT-hybrid-OT-project/topic/8548/page/2/

but I thought it deserved it's own thread.

zombie84 said:

The improvements aren't necessary but they aren't unnecessary either IMO. The way I see is that it's just different flourishes and accents but the song remains the same. Burtt used to say that because a lot of the mix was actually done "live", each time they did a pass it was its own performance, and that's sort of the attitude I take towards the mono vs stereo. It's like when you see a band perform live, each concert you go to the songs will be technically different than the last time and with little improvs and modifications and even some mistakes, and some you like and others you miss from last time.

That is what is said everytime the film is changed basically. And I can appreciate that, if we always have an alternative. (in this case the mono mix have ironically been restored by a fan;) that's one of the reason why I went to see it in the cinema '97. Don't take this wrong, I love the mono mix of SW and I appreciate a well made mono mix far more than a flashy modern made 5.1 mix made for just the sake of it as many films are made today. I just think it wasn't necessary when I compare it with the stereo mix. IMO. it was already perfect.

I think it's scary when movie enthusiast are very concerned about authentic color-timing, picture-quality etc. and forget that the sound of the film is half of the experience. Just look at every blu-ray on the market today and you can count the original mixes that went with them on one hand, compare that with regular music CD's. You would have an uproar if it were the same.

Bellboy said:

Umm...I saw it on opening weekend (and MANY subsequent viewings) in 1977 as a 15-yr old.  

I'm very jealous of you.

Bellboy said:

I'm old, so sue me...but that footage is somewhere.  I need to look through my video collection, but it might have been shown in a documentary as well.  I was just hoping that you vidiots would know every frame in existence.  :)

I checked the bootleg telecine Zombie spoke of and also Puggo's 16mm restoration and the scene you speaking of is not to be seen unfortunately.

SilverWook said:

If Dolby Stereo had not caught on,  the mono mix would have been very necessary.

Very true. But what I really meant was that I think the so called improvements made in it was unnecessary, everything fell in place the first time, something the creator of it still don't understand.

Thanks for sharing this, Zombie.

If the source is Gout the different audio tracks available will not be hard to sync up. I also often read or hear people believing the mono mix to be the first original mix done and especially the remark of the Beru voice to be the original one when it was in fact the last made mix to the american release, I believe it was available to the public in June or July '77. A very polished audio track but I've never fallen in love with it. Unnecessary imo.

This project sounds great! Hope you find the time to finish it though, I also think these broadcasted versions is the final key to make a good looking fan restoration of the original films. Very important project even for the original cuts. I hope you continue with it.

The only movie I have with 2.1 sound is The Terminator DVD which has the original 2.1 mono track and that works great on my receiver, so I think I'll try such an encode. It would be great to compare it with the 5.1 track and see which sounds most natural, I'll let you know what I think.

Fantastic! Very well put together guideline, hairy_hen! It may be very useful for some people. I didn't know some receivers had problems with 2.1 tracks, interesting... must check that with my receiver. Thanks for the info and upload, this will be great!

Moth3r said:

No; I'm still eagerly awaiting Max_Rebo's AviSynth filter!

 Ah, I see. Do you hear that, Max_Rebo!? ;)

Moth3r said:

It's a real picture, but I guess we'll never know whether it came from a real video or not. Zion alluded to the fact it was from a clean up of the JSC LD, but his promised article never appeared and x0project.com is now gone.

Yes, I should have asked if someone knew it was from a real video or not. ;) It's beautifully done anyway.

Harmy said:

Well the HD Alien is the Director's Cut so maybe that's why it's different. Also what do you mean, the original logo?

The original Alien had the same Fox logo as SW and Empire, that's why I found it strange that Alien used the logo from the eighties, even more strange if it was attached to the Director's Cut. Both are original logos of course, what I meant was that my DVD used the "correct" one.

I don't want to be an asshole but that Fox logo wasn't used on Empire, that one is actually the slightly newer one used on Jedi. Adywan already had the correct one in place. Strange that HD Alien using it, my DVD has the original logo on it.

Love the original Emperor on the reworked poster. :)

Harmy said:

Yeah, I'm totally serious, it's dubbed in Czech, I could post a clip of it later but my CPU is totaly occupied reeincoding my HD ESB Partly Despecialized at the moment.

Edit: I added a link to the clip to my signature.

 :) Hilarious!

captainsolo said:

Yeah, I meant things like the G'kar and TB broadcast versions (how are these?). I went back and took a look at the Reivax version which is the best source I have for the 97 SE ANH. ANH largely has all of the pink tint gone in this version. It's actually strange to see the updated Mos Eisley sequence without it.

Ok, I had a look at the Reivax version and to my eyes it has the same dull colors and contrast issues as every other video version of the '97SE I've seen. The video actually looked quite good in some scenes when I changed the brightness and contrast etc. on my setup. Even though I hate the SE, I was quite pleased to see it in true anamorphic for the first time but unfortunately it was in Pal format and the picture was slightly streched and had some very bad motion smearing in some places, even with these flaws it looked imo. much better than the '04 DVD version will ever look.

I haven't seen the "G'kar" and "TB" broadcast versions, but if you take a look at Max Reebo's preservation thread they seems to be from the same master and the "Flunk" seems to have the best overall picture quality.

These broadcasted versions of the SE may also be a very good source for a potential fan-restoration of the original films.

Sorry for bumping this old thread but did you ever get anywhere with this, Moth3r? I'm so sick and tired of the Gout smearing!

Also do someone know if this picture is fake or real? it looks too good to be true actually. But if that is real that is some major achievement!

Lord__Vader said:

I'm not sure about that, the broadcast versions are anamorphic and the quality seems to be too good to be from the same transfer the 1997 laserdiscs and VHS used but I don't know.

 Ok, didn't know they were anamorphic, maybe worth tracking down.

Lord__Vader said:

The dubbing is pretty funny. When Luke ask 3PO to tell him about the rebelion, 3PO says something like: "I'm not very good at telling stories, I don't know how to put them, I'm not Spielberg."

Are you serious! If you are, that is priceless! :) What language do they speak? It needs to be preserved just for that line. :) Thanks for posting.

From now on I think I'm gonna start using that quote. ;)

Thanks!

dark_jedi asked me the same question, I had no plans to do Jedi but if you're happy with the result of these maybe I should try it out. It will be a little harder though, I don't have the dirty work done already that Moth3r did with Pwnage, and I don't know the actual timings and line-breaks of all the subs in it and some of the lines do not appear horizontally centered in the frame as with SW but otherwise it should be very easy. It would be great with more actual footage from it as a reference though as the LD captures may not have the correct timings and line-breaks in them.

:(

A little desperate but maybe you can make a reply comment in the article, maybe he will catch it.

I think captainsolo means the '97 SE not the '04, I'm not entirely sure but I would be surprised if they didn't have the same colors, they should be from the same problematic telecine. But the binary sunset scene looking to much different to be just a video telecine screwup.

EDIT: moved the script to first post.

Ah, ok. Thanks anyway, the pictures you posted answered some of my thoughts I had.

Thanks for posting!

Very interesting, I think that's clear evidence of how the binary sunset really looked in the cinema back in '97, no surprise that the colortiming of that scene somehow felt familiar to me when I first saw that photo. Some good pictures there, you can even see the stars clearly in some of the Falcon caps;)

Would you mind posting a little bigger picture of the binary sunset, if it's possible and the close up of the two suns if it isn't too much trouble? that's also a shot that's been very inconsistent in color between various video releases.

Yes, it's really sad, all the presence of the original films being completely wiped out...

It is still interesting that it doesn't match the appearance in the '97 homevideo releases at all.

Oh... so that is what it was! Now when you say it, I think it resembles the footage in the doc: Magic & the mystery pretty much although that is more saturated. How did you find out?