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msycamore

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Join date
20-Aug-2008
Last activity
1-Nov-2017
Posts
3,166

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Post
#419601
Topic
Info: - Greedo & Jabba subtitles, theatrical placement and fonts -
Time

ChainsawAsh said:

"It's too late.  You should have paid him when you had the chance" seems like it might be just outside the "TV safe" zone.  Same with "...who drop their shipments at the first sign of an Imperial cruiser."

Yeah, those two lines is what makes it problematic, they are dangerously close the "TV safe" zone this time but I checked them against Moth3r's "pwnage" subs on my TV that have irritating large overscan so I didn't went over line, so they should be ok. I really hope they are, otherwise is there any good way to check it to be entirely sure?

ChainsawAsh said:

And I still don't know where I stand on the "two frames" issue ... it still bugs me, but it's how it was originally, right?

Yes, those three lines in my Jedi clip are corrected against the Empire of Dreams footage that I believe to be original but the timings for SW is taken from Moth3r's bootleg telecine and double checked against the 16mm transfer. Like them or not that's how they were in the theater ;) I can still change the Jedi timings if you guys want me to.

 

Post
#419452
Topic
J. Williams &amp; LSO, The EMPIRE STRIKES BACK <em>AUDIOPHILE EDITION</em> - Restored &amp; Remastered Score (Released)
Time

If you guys mean around the 2:40 mark on the Main Title, it's simply the badly remixed SE part that's been spliced in between the better quality sources, maybe that is what you hear. Unfortunately that piece of music is only available on the SE album but I think he did a very good job to blend it as the stereo image especially on that cue is horrible.

Post
#419422
Topic
Info: - Greedo &amp; Jabba subtitles, theatrical placement and fonts -
Time

ChainsawAsh said:

Alright, I just finished watching the test.  It looks very good, but here's 2 critiques for making it better:

The subs definitely need to be blurred slightly to fit with the slightly-blurred GOUT picture.

I definitely agree with you, it doesn't seem to be such a function available in the internal filters though, I'll have to check the Avisynth site and see what kind of subfilters I can use. You also have to keep in mind that the clips I've posted have no filters applied at all, pure Gout quality! only resized to 16:9, so I think it will look slightly better through g-force's script.

ChainsawAsh said:

You tend to have the subs end a couple frames before the shot changes.  I'd keep the subs visible until the last frame of the shot if it's that close - that way, it's a more natural transition, since you're changing the entire image anyway.  That's part of what I don't like about player-generated subtitles - they almost always go a little too far after the cut, or end a little bit earlier, whereas most burned-in subtitles will end ON the cut.

For example, "I told you not to admit him" needs to end 2 frames later, as do "You weak-minded fool," "Your mind powers will not work on me, boy," "There will be no bargain, young Jedi," and "I shall enjoy watching you die."  "He's using an old Jedi mind trick" is perfect, though!

So you did notice them, good eyes! Those timings you didn't like is actually corrected to the authentic theatrical ones, haven't corrected the timings for the others yet. If you look at the Empire of Dreams footage you'll see that they all have two frames free from subs before and after the cuts, I also did the same for the line "I shall enjoy watching you die." If you, dark_jedi or anyone else don't like the timings, I can of course change it back but I just thought it would be nice to make it as close as possible to the real deal. Anyway, thanks for your comments. I'm glad you liked them. :)

The only thing that disturbs me about this font is the letters o, c, e and the slightly bigger dots, and I also had to type in the capital letters Y as a stand alone subtitle to make it closer to the second letter! it left a big space for some reason, a little tiresome but worth it in the end.

Post
#419238
Topic
Info: - Greedo &amp; Jabba subtitles, theatrical placement and fonts -
Time

A video sample, most for demonstrating the font size and width...

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=UD0L9803

I've managed to get an almost exact match in positioning and size this time, have not improved the drop shadow yet, if it's even possible with this method? I think it will look pretty damn good when the possible grain structure is applied.

Let me know what you think.

Post
#419231
Topic
Star Wars OT &amp; 1997 Special Edition - Various Projects Info (Released)
Time

I almost forgot one thing ;) what cropping values for the resizing in the script did g-force use for Return of the Jedi, if he ever did a Jedi specific script that is? If I understand it correctly I must use the same script as you're gonna do, dark_jedi, otherwise the sutitles I do will not be in the same position for you.

Post
#419165
Topic
Info: - Greedo &amp; Jabba subtitles, theatrical placement and fonts -
Time

dark_jedi, on the same old Jedi LD you have, is the line "I want fifty thousand. No less." there or not. Can you also check the other lines I was uncertain of earlier in the thread just for the sake of it. It looks like I have to use the home video timings for all the remaining subs afterall, if you don't have an ace in your pocket, dark_jedi.

Unfortunately the only timings for the subs I have at the moment are Dr. Gonzos DC LD and I don't know how reliable they're. The one line that differ the most in it compared to the Gout is "I like Captain Solo where he is." but one thing is for sure the Gout subtitles cannot be trusted they are among the worst piece of shit I've ever seen on a DVD and that goes for the regular subs too, my plan is to fix them too and remove all the hard of hearing notes.

I'll post some video clips soon...

Post
#419154
Topic
Info: - Greedo &amp; Jabba subtitles, theatrical placement and fonts -
Time

Moth3r said:

The premise is quite simple, although it will take a bit of messing around with AviSynth's Overlay or Layer functions.

The way I see it, there are two approaches you could try:

Starting with the output from the g-force script, run it through a very strong denoiser to completely scrub all grain - but generate a "difference" clip from the source and cleaned video. Apply the subtitles, then overlay the difference clip. This is essentially adding the grain that was removed back in, only this time it will be on top of the subs.

or

Add the subs, then add simulated grain (from a filter such as GrainFactory3) using a transparency mask so that the grain is only applied over the subtitle text.

That is great Moth3r! I'd like to try it out, I really don't know but I think the first method would generate the best results but it seems a little more complicated at least to me, I'll take a look at those options as soon as I've finished the timings and positioning of the subs and see if I can handle it or not, otherwise maybe someone else could help me to implement it to the script.

Post
#418872
Topic
Info: - Greedo &amp; Jabba subtitles, theatrical placement and fonts -
Time

Moth3r said:

Double post, but I've just had another thought.

Thinking about the AviSynth script, and the sample of the Greedo subs that was posted - although the font, drop shadow and positioning are great, don't you think that the subs themselves look a little too "clean" when compared to the rest of the picture?

Yes, indeed. That's one of the reasons why I used the slightly muted white color to make it blend better with the picture, but no matter how you do it, it doesn't seem to look as it is a part of the film. I'm still not entirely satisfied with the font and drop shadow, but it turned out quite good and much better than I initially thought, if you take the rather primitive method I used into consideration. ;) It would be great to make an exact match with self made bitmap subs sometime but it seems to be too much work.

Moth3r said:

For a true simulated theatrical experience, do you think that the subs would look better "dirtied up" with a little added artificial film grain over the text?

It would be great, I don't know how I would do such a thing though as my avisynth knowledge is minimal.

Post
#418866
Topic
Info: - Greedo &amp; Jabba subtitles, theatrical placement and fonts -
Time

Moth3r said:

My old LD to DVD transfer, which had subs based on the 1995 VHS, does have the ellipses at the beginning of the second lines.

I've mentioned this before (see here), but we believe that the UK TV broadcast of ROTJ had the theatrical subtitles. I've lost my tape, and have so far not managed to find anyone who still has a copy to stick around long enough to grab the required scenes.

And it has also been suggested that some versions do not have a subtitle for the line "I want fifty thousand. No less." (Thread here).

Thanks for the links, very interesting... that guy haven't been logged in for a long time :( maybe someone still have that recorded somewhere around here, it would be fantastic.

I'm now pretty sure that the line "You may have been a good smuggler..." were split in two in the cinema as there's a cut from Solo to Jabba in that scene that corresponds to the dialogue, it would be very unusual if they opted to have it as one continous line overlaying the two cuts. I've also noticed that the timings are way of in both the Gout video and the ones g-force and squirrel used when compared to the Empire of Dreams footage especially the line "I shall enjoy watching you die." I don't know if they took their timings from the LD's or Gout but it confirms that the video timings are not the same as the theatrical.

Post
#418797
Topic
Info: - Greedo &amp; Jabba subtitles, theatrical placement and fonts -
Time

Oh, sorry NJM. I must've misunderstood your question. The home video subs cannot be entirely trusted in how those lines appeared in the cinema. I'll need theatrical reference, if not original the SE will do but I still don't know if they appeared on the '97 broadcasted versions or is available on any documentary from that period.

The reason I asked about the word Wookiee is that I thought it could be a possibility that the word was spelled differently back in '83, just like Jabba the Hutt was spelled Hut with one "t" before Return of the Jedi, Wookiee has been spelled with one "e" in the past.

So should I have those four lines centered or not?

Post
#418725
Topic
Info: - Greedo &amp; Jabba subtitles, theatrical placement and fonts -
Time

dark_jedi said:

Well 1 thing is for sure, they will have to be centered in the frame, at least to me they would look terrible on 1 side or the other.

The difference isn't that huge, but if you want it centered you'll get it. I'll post a comparison for you soon... so you can see for yourself.

dark_jedi said:

So are you saying you can make the SW subs look better or no? because if so I have not done the rendering yet with the new subs, that is planned for Monday or Sunday night.

I can make a better match, yes. But then the subtitles will end up outside the safe TV-overscan area, and that is not recommended, if you're watching the movie on a regular TV the subtitles will be cut off at the sides. I don't know the details about overscan on modern TV's though.

Post
#418699
Topic
Info: - Greedo &amp; Jabba subtitles, theatrical placement and fonts -
Time

I've begun to work on the subs for Jedi now and I'm happy to tell you that they will be much closer to the real ones than I was able to do on SW, (that is if you want me to do them differently, dark_jedi?) cause the subs will be a little taller and appear more wide in the frame than the SW subs you have, I'm also wondering how important you think the positioning is? Because if I place them exactly as they appear on the four caps on the first page they will not be centered in the frame (don't know yet if this is a case of image cropping but I strongly believe it is, all four subs have the same positioning). The Gout Jedi has actually a little more picture-information on both sides when compared to those, haven't checked other sources yet. It could be more pleasing to the eye to have them horizontally centered, just a thought, tell me how you want it...

These are the lines I'm not sure about: 

This bounty hunter is my kind of scum... / ...fearless and inventive. Split up in two or not? if split up, should the second line have an ellipsis?

You may have been a good smuggler... / ...but now you’re Bantha fodder. Should the second line have an ellipsis?

Unfortunately I only have four lines as reference of what I strongly believe are the original subtitles. This is probably a long shot but I thought if I could compare the theatrical Greedo subs as they appear in Star Wars SE with the original Greedo subs and see if the line; Jabba's put a price on your head so large every bounty hunter in the galaxy will be looking for you... appear in one frame instead of it being split in two as it is done usually in the many video versions, and if that line match maybe the only thing they changed for the SE subs was the actual font and not the line-breaks. But then you'll need footage from the theatrical SE ;) dark_jedi said he should look if he could find something for me that could help, otherwise any info or knowledge about it is very welcomed.