msycamore

dark_jedi said:

funny how people switch faces so fast around here.

I think I'll have to agree on that. If you had read my post more carefully, you wouldn't have needed to respond like an asshole.

dark_jedi said:

Don't you have your hands full with thx at the moment?

No, even if I had what does that have to do with anything?

dark_jedi said:

invaluable to a ESB restoration, what are you doing or is it top secret?

Well, I said it would be invaluable to future restoration projects, not that I'm working on some top secret project.

dark_jedi said:

and I am not worried about competition, people can make what they want, and share what they want, I have all my favorite versions of the SW Trilogies I will ever need, and when the Blu's come out next October, that will be the frosting on the cake, I just hope they are packaged in a HUGE Millenium Falcon.

My statement regarding competition had nothing to do about me working on some top secret thing, it was more of a funny silly question on my part that you would rather wait to post your copy of the broadcast until you're finished with your custom made version so that the TB version not end up competing with it, but I guess you took that as an assault on you.

dark_jedi said:

I have stated to you and others that KEEP asking for these DV broadcasts that I will NOT upload them until I am finished with what I am currently doing, so if that is not soon enough for you then so be it, friend.

I actually didn't know that, this is the first time you're telling me that, so thanks for the answer then.

ChainsawAsh said:

What the hell is this 95-minute, X-rated version released in the UK in 1971?  Could that have included trailers or something?

That is strange, the only explanation I can think of is that they have simply listed the runtime wrong in this case.

Darth Mallwalker said:

I hope y'all can see this

http://hotfile.com/dl/85328353/6108903/

codec is FFVH (ffdshow's Huff)
It contains the first forty-nine frames from PVI pressing 1425-84
(which might or might not be same as GOUT's first forty-nine)

I suspect it was always a grid pattern (i.e. scanlines in both dimensions)
We just don't have enough horizontal resolution to see the vertical lines in the wide LD caps.

Remember in the best-case scenario (if you had a HLD-X0 that wasn't twenty years old, or maybe aleksbmw's Hercules) you'd only get ~425 lines of horizontal resolution.
What would happen if you shrunk the SE image to ~425 width, then blew it up again. Would the vertical lines still be distinguishable?

GOUT might have shown them . . . if DVNR hadn't smeared them away already.

Perhaps dark_jedi's pan/scan cap should have shown the vertical lines, but maybe his old player was a hunk of junk or otherwise under-performing, and that's why he upgraded to CLD-79 Elite....

Thanks for going through the trouble and posting a clip. I agree with you, the bad vertical resolution of the GOUT combined with the bad horizontal resolution of the '86/'92 LD's rips could very much be the reason of the things we're seeing. It was me who started this whole mystery that could easily be just an video resolution-thing, so sorry about that. But... ;) it could of course still be an alternative print as Zombie said of course, I haven't checked yet if this could possible be an alternative going by info from the making of book. Just to be geeky enough, could we have more footage from you, Mallwalker? The Emperor holo from the DC LD and the Vader "dot-screen"?

Ok, I got what I needed, my friend. That's what I wanted to know. :)

Could someone please be kind and repost The Empire Strikes Back '97SE TB-version and perhaps the Gkar-version, these broadcasts are invaluable to possible future restoration efforts of both original and '97SE projects. dark_jedi I'm looking at you or are you afraid it's going to compete with your custom made version. ;) Anyway, it would be great if someone did, many people on this board have been anxious to get them.

Ah, now I see it. ;) apparently it was rated X in UK originally, so it's probably a lobby card made for UK cinemas, yeah it's weird but we're talking about the country who put Sam Raimi in court for The Evil Dead in the eighties so it's not that hard to believe, 15 is the UK video rating, erri_wan.

ChainsawAsh-- the lobby card we're talking about is linked in his post.

Noticed some text was cut out from it :( the other page I had was just the cover. Nothing special but a nice little read, click & save.

SilverWook said:

The Japanese LD is the same print source, but it's hard to say for sure it's better than the U.S. release. It's a little disheartening I can see more fine detail in what erri_wan sent me.

I'm still waiting on that Betamax tape to show up.

I probably won't be able to send anything out to msycamore until next week. After Thanksgiving and the first weekend of holiday madness here has passed. Wish I could play "Buy More! Buy More Now!" over the P.A. system at the mall. ;) 

I guess we will need a side by side comparison of the LD transfers to know for sure. No problem, SilverWook, take your time and buy more, buy more now. ;)

SilverWook said:

Interesting things keep popping up on ebay.

Some nice sets of stills

http://cgi.ebay.com/Thx-1138-23-Stills-George-Lucas-Star-Wars-Set-/130459132058?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1e5ff8609a

http://cgi.ebay.com/Thx-1138-28-Stills-George-Lucas-Star-Wars-Set-B-/130459132244?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1e5ff86154

The original pressbook. I've been intrigued by these things ever since Criterion put one on the Robinson Crusoe on Mars Laserdisc.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Original-1971-THX-1138-Pressbook-10-pages-no-cut-outs-/400176306652?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5d2c5dd9dc

And this one just made me crack up. I'll let you figure out why. ;)

http://cgi.ebay.com/George-Lucas-THX-1138-Vintage-1971-/390260122272?pt=FR_SK_dvd_Photo&hash=item5add50e2a0

Nice finds. I have that Pressbook scanned, unfortunately only three pages of it but it's the most relevant part, the small interviews with the cast. I can post them later, so you all can read them. Either I'm blind or stupid but I cannot see what is funny about the last one?

Nice one, zeppelinrox.

LexX, there was also an similar International Six Sheet version of it:

True words spoken, erri_wan, sometimes I forget that it's an fairly unpopular and obscure film.

No words from that youtube-guy?

ray_afraid said:

Hey guys. I was looking to see if anyone was working on a preservation on THX 1138 and just found this thread. Sounds like you guys are on it! I've read through most of this but maybe we can have a recap on the sources that are available and what is to be done with it. I mean, taking whats best of each source or picking the best one ect. Just wondering where we're at here.

Where we're at...

...at the moment I am waiting to recieve the files from, SilverWook so I can begin work on the subs that we need for the alternate cut. On the project as a whole, I actually don't know yet. Do we want the Italian Cut (theatrical cut;) that erri_wan so kindly shared, on a DVD just as it is with an additional English sub-stream? maybe converted to NTSC? --I would be perfectly happy with that.

SilverWook own two Laserdiscs of the Original Cut on Laserdisc, one which he has kindly already captured, to make use for in a preservation attempt and the other (Japanese) one which he hasn't yet compared with the US LD in minutia. --Do we want a combination of the two transfers for best results? maybe upscaled to 16:9 with additional clean up a'la g-force? -- I don't know, I would be perfectly fine with just a straight transfer of one of the LD's in 4:3, I've heard the new TV-equipments is much better at resizing than the avisynth-scripts anyway. (IIRC the THX 1138 transfer looks overall much better than the DC LD of SW? no DVNR-smear and aliasing am I right?)

That's the easy way out ;) my dream would be to have a nice preservation set of these two cuts on a double DVD-set with all extras we have in our possession, the only problem is, neither I or SilverWook are good in this field, sorry if I talk on your behalf, SilverWook. ;) and this George Lucas debut doesn't seems to be that important in many eyes these days? erri_wan may have the theatrical cut here for f**ks sake, to me it's like a holy grail!!

Anyway, there you have my recap, ray_afraid, thanks for showing interest in this project.

I just wanted to bump this thread to again say thank you so much g-force for the hard work you have poured into these scripts, one of the unsung heroes of these boards, you made the GOUT a lot easier on the eyes! :)

It is the original 1980 International Three Sheet. As the name suggests the three sheets are normally approximately 3 times the size of the most common used poster, called a one sheet.

LexX said:

Does anyone know what font was used for credits in SW posters (Style A, C, half sheet...)? msycamore? :P And if anyone has a high res version of the double bill, let me know.

The font is SerifGothic, but unfortunately it doesn't look exactly the same anymore, the old alternative versions of some letters didn't make it when they digitized it. Below is a chart of all the different versions of the letters.

The new digital version doesn't include any alternatives, the tilted e for example. The GOUT DVD-covers used the new version, IMO some of the old alternatives looked much better.

I thought the double bill was included in the package I sent you? I am almost sure I have it, I'll take a look. Nice covers BTW.

EDIT: I actually like your first one better as it uses Tom Jung's classic artwork for both films, so don't trash it yet. ;) 

zombie84 said:

In the caps where you can see the dot pattern--you can also see how it creates the optical illusion of horizontal scanlines. Look at the left side of the screen, near Ozzel. Very clearly looks like horizontal lines. But it's just an optical illusion, because in most of the rest of the frame you can see its actually grid-pattern dots.

This does of course make one re-evaluate the shots where its fully scanlines with no trace of dots. It really does look like an alternate version of the shot without dots, but based on the optical illusion seen in the shot with dots, this is in severe doubt.

The Emperor hologram...maybe same thing. It's all a bit difficult to say now. There are other instances of the poor verticle resolution of the GOUT--one that comes to mind is that in Moth3r's transfer of the LD, the final shot of the film you can see extra details on R2's pannelling that in the GOUT is just a solid blob (I think this is on the stickied screenshot page in the forums).

 

I agree about these other shots, it's hard to now for sure but trust me on this, the Emperor hologram have scanlines, that's no optical illusion on my part, they are clearly defined in every transfer minus the GOUT. Yes we do know the PAL LD's show better vertical detail/resolution in some shots, like R2's panneling in the end ceremony but this is an NTSC LD rip coming from the same master that have better detail in this shot than the GOUT, how the hell is that even possible, George Walton Lucas, Jr.?! The GOUT transfers never ceases to amaze me in their quality.

ChainsawAsh, it have recently been posted on usenet.

I do have the Moth3r widescreen telecine bootleg, it's divided into two xvid files, I thought I had already offered you a copy, zombie? just give me a PM, I also think it's still available on usenet.

danny_boy said:

 

This is interesting:

If you go to the end of Fox's 75thanniv. promotion:

http://www.fox75th.com/

 

...you get this:

 

Looks like the 1997 edition.

Are you going by memory when you say this? The reason I'm asking is because it didn't look that way when the '97SE was released on home video. The Binary Sunset footage in that promotion is identical in its appearence in FOX's documentary The Magic and the Mystery from '97 and it's much closer to the original colortiming if not the original.

hairy_hen said:

I wonder exactly where the 1993 mix came from.  SW came from the 70mm mix and had extra sounds put in on top of it, RotJ was reassembled from thirteen-track stems, while ESB is said to have come from an early generation four-track master.  But what master would this have been?  It is nearly identical to the 35mm version, but not entirely, and while its dynamic range probably reflects similarity to the 70mm, its content does not.  It is possible the 70mm mix may not have had the snowspeeder crash sound either, but that's only speculation on my part.  Furthermore the 70 seems to have had at least some of the dialogue differences of the SE, but not all of them, and possibly some that appear in no other version--but without a recording, it's impossible to know for sure.  I find this rather confusing to think about!

Yes, more specific info would be great to have on this matter. As I understand it the '93 DC mix is basically the 35mm Dolby Stereo mix but remastered from the unlimited four-track master mix, resulting in better bass and dynamic range than its original optical track, but what I don't get is why that four-track master mix is missing that whining snowspeeder sound fx that is on the earlier Laserdiscs and supposedly was present in the original 35mm Dolby, so that single sound effect was the only thing added to the final print-master? I don't know, it's weird. It's more likely IMO that it was a fault in the '93 remastering stage.

The only 70mm differences I trust are those Michael Matessino listed way back in Film Score Monthly magazine:

* After the probot lands on Hoth and moves frame left, there is an optical wipe to the overhead shot of Luke on his tauntaun, instead of a straight cut.
* After Luke wanders through the snow and falls face down, there is an optical wipe to Han instead of a straight cut.
* The bacta tank scene starts on a close-up of Two-One-Bee and pans right to a closeup of Luke in the tank. It then cuts to FX-7 extending it's arm to the tank. There is no cut to Leia, Han and Threepio observing.
* In the snow battle scene, when Luke drops into the snow after throwing a charge into the Imperial walker, the AT-ST in the background has no atmospheric depth. It looks to close and small.
* In the Emperor scene, the hologram of the Emperor is already present in the first shot-it does not "tune in" gradually.
* The Imperial fleet establishing shot after the magic tree scene has a different TIE fighter sound effect.
* When Luke falls from Cloud City into the Millennium Falcon, the Falcon's radar dish is not added to the shot.
* The telepathy between Luke and Vader during the "Hyperspace" cue has straight cuts instead of quick dissolves.
* In the final scene, there is no tracked music from "Yoda and the Force". The scene begins with the first establishing shot of the rebel fleet, then cuts inside the Falcon for Lando to say, "Luke, we're ready for take-off" (but a different take of this was used). After Luke says (voice over), "Good luck, Lando" the scene cuts to inside the rebel cruiser where Luke says, "I'll meet you at the rendezvous, " etc. Not in this version are two more establishing shots of the fleet and an interim effects shot over which Lando says, "When we find Jabba the Hutt and that bounty hunter we'll contact you."

The Emperor and Falcon's radar dish have since been confirmed and the films final have been known for a long time, there's probably other differences in the mix as well but in terms of music-editing there's no chance IMO that the two transitional Imperial March cues that are present in the SE could have been part of the 70mm cut that I've heard rumored. First, why would Matessino mention such a minor difference as the different TIE -sound but not the musical difference in the same scene, secondly why would the 70mm cut have a more complete soundtrack when it was the first one out. I think the same goes for the Boba Fett departure music editing (I know you did it for your personal satisfaction;) All these rumors started when the SE audiotrack was so different, some may be true but as you have said I also think the 70mm mix is closer to the '93 remaster than what most people think. It would have been fantastic to get a hold of that guy on the other forum, who said he owned a copy of it. 

Darth Mallwalker said:

Oh but it does matter to me. Thank you geeky friend for wasting the time to do it :-)

So subtract 15 from all my numbers: the frame I captured was 34124.
Apologies if I asplode anyone's brain

This is why I said it didn't matter, as you captured the correct frames anyway.

I have no problem being your geeky friend. ;)

Darth Mallwalker said:

Using my 'new math', I reckon that would translate to
The 25th frame of that camera shot
Perhaps that could be a better nomenclature to specify them as 'the Nth frame of the shot' What do you think?

That would be correct, but that frame is still just my guess by going of the minor visual cues going on in that scene, trying to match my earlier cap on this thread.

Darth Mallwalker said:

Oh carp, here I've used GOUT 34139

For the visual cues to locate it, I've used red & blue indicator lamps on the panel.

At GOUT frame:
00688 - STAR WARS title card appears
34133 - only one red light beyond Ozzel's nose
34134 - 2nd red light turns on
34138 - blue light is clearly visible between nose & mustache
34139 - blue light is mostly obscured by mustache, barely seen - this is the frame shown below

I'm using DGIndex/AviSynth/VirtualDub combo to see the frame numbers

Not that it really matters but I did check my GOUT frame counts again and this is what I get in HCenc:

00688 - STAR WARS title card appears

34118 - only one red light beyond Ozzel's nose

34119 - 2nd red light turns on

34123 - blue light is clearly visible between nose & mustache

34124 - blue light is mostly obscured by mustache, barely seen

so why does it differ for you? or for me. ;)

No it wouldn't but I don't know how many who would really like it. ;)

I went through the Laserdisc audio track for Empire again recently (which is believed to be the original 35mm Dolby Stereo track) to see if I could find any differences in terms of content between that and the '93 DC audio track and to my ears they are exactly the same, minus the sound effect of the crashing snowspeeder. I think the different sounding explosions and lasers etc. in the beginning of the battle of Hoth for example, sounds different due to the different levels this track was mixed at combined with the limiting applied. At first I was fooled into thinkin several sounds were unique to this mix but when I went back and listened carefully to the DC track they were present but more subdued in many cases, I also checked the '86 JSC LD audio and to me it sounds identical to the earlier "35mm - mix". So maybe that one is a better alternative for preservation.

I'm curious to hear your thoughts about this, hairy_hen, and if you have find out any differences between these?

One more thing, according to Matessino's 70mm difference notes, The Imperial fleet establishing shot after the magic tree scene has a different TIE fighter sound effect. Have you guys listened to the french and spanish audio tracks on the GOUT in this sequence, notice how much better it sounds, could be an actual 70mm-cut sound effect. ;)

LexX said:

Is there even a separate 70mm mix for ROTJ? I'd say that just recreating the original mix in 5.1 would do it so then we would only miss TESB 70mm mix in 5.1.

Yes, there is. According to album editing and assembly supervisor, Michael Matessino:

Unlike Empire, there was only one difference between the 35mm and 70mm versions of Jedi: the 70mm version used the "Main Title" from Empire (referring to the music recording, not the visuals), but no one has been able to determine why.

'92 US pan & scan LD (5652-80)

Darth Mallwalker said:

Oh carp, here I've used GOUT 34139

For the visual cues to locate it, I've used red & blue indicator lamps on the panel.

At GOUT frame:
00688 - STAR WARS title card appears
34133 - only one red light beyond Ozzel's nose
34134 - 2nd red light turns on
34138 - blue light is clearly visible between nose & mustache
34139 - blue light is mostly obscured by mustache, barely seen - this is the frame shown below

I'm using DGIndex/AviSynth/VirtualDub combo to see the frame numbers

Hmm... weird, I guess I'll have to recheck my numbers then. ;)

Darth Mallwalker said:
How about those pan/scans 'eh ? They look more dotty than liney!
Was 5652-80 that way too?

I remember it looked more in line with the JSC, but I will check again and post it.

It's very interesting to see how much better the JSC transfer looks compared to its later US release. I always heard that was the case but this is actually the first time I've seen it for myself.

doubleofive said:

It looks to me that maybe its ALWAYS been dots, just bad laserdisc transfers before.

I agree, looks like it. Somehow the vertical lines are not that pronounced in the JSC transfer...

doubleofive said:
We seem to be eliminating a lot of these change/change backs. The only one that is obvious is the direction of the scanlines in the Conference, which still blows my mind.

...and I suspect that may also be the case with these holograms, if you look at them in motion there seems to be both vertical and horizontal ones in there, maybe Mallwalker's caps will prove it right or wrong.

Thanks for the trouble, Mallwalker.