msycamore

zombie84 said:

Well, it would be hard to say if it is a TV cut without another source to compare it with, and impossible to say unless there is some sort of commercial tape to compare it with. It is certainly possible that it was edited for both time and content so that it could run on television. I was going to say its a bit unlikely they would have spent the time and money doing all the foreign dubs for the 1978 re-issue, especially since re-issues are mainly on a territory by territory basis. However, the German version that is analyzed on a link posted on this page says that its less than a minute shorter than the UK version. I must assume that the UK VHS compared is based on the 1978 cut, since this is (reportedly, anyway) the only version ever released on home video until the DC.

So, either both the UK VHS and German TV versions are both the 1971 theatrical cut, which is not very likely, or the German version had the extra scenes added sometime in or after 1978. This is complicated by dubbing versus subtitles. It's not said whether the German version was dubbed or subtitled; if it was subtitled, it's no wonder the 1978 cut was ported, since it required extremely little work, unlike dubbing. The Italian version in discussion here is dubbed, so it would require more work on the part of Warners to port over the 1978 cut and thus slightly less likely.

Yes, that UK VHS is the 1978 cut, it was released two times on VHS in UK, both times the same cut. (I own the latest issue) According to IMDB the film didn't have its premiere in Germany until it was shown on TV in West Germany 30 December 1978, they don't state any theatrical debut, the same goes for Finland, in other countries it went directly to video, Japan or film festivals, Portugal. That info may be accurate as THX 1138 wasn't a big hit movie when released, a rather small art-film. So if I understand it correctly, this German cut is like a hybrid of the restored '78 cut and the Italian but is only 45 seconds shorter than the original.

So what we know so far is:

• 1971 US theatrical cut - approx. 81min
• original cut - approx. 86min
• Italian cut - approx. 81min
• German cut - approx. 86min

I think those times reflect your point of view pretty good, zombie.

Thanks for the suggestions, let them come. :)

A new attempt with just the Warner logo with reduced grain

http://www.sendspace.com/file/65f8fu

Edit: and a last one... for a while. ;) Somewhere in between, in terms of grain structure 

http://www.sendspace.com/file/e3e52j 

test-clip 2, with blur applied

http://www.sendspace.com/file/3cytyh

test-clip 3, with slightly increased blur

http://www.sendspace.com/file/uoidvv

any suggestions? it's difficult when you don't have the LD capture at hand to match against but I just thought I would demonstrate it so you have an general idea of how it could be made in avisynth. I don't know, maybe the betamax tape or 16mm will be a better alternative but I'll try to improve this tweaking a little. ;)

Interesting info about the free artistic choices they took in the dubbing stage, if that was the general way the Italian distributors approached this film I guess it also explaines the somewhat weird opening narration.

SilverWook, here's a first test clip of the two opening logos...

http://www.sendspace.com/file/uchu46

...just downsized and resized back with some filmgrain applied, does it look bad enough? too much grain? too little? maybe hard to tell for you at this point but let me know what you think, I will upload the complete opening including the Buck Rogers segment and credits a little later, if you want, just need a starting opinion on this, maybe a little gateweave? must look into that if it's possible... another thing, the opening titles doesn't seem to be a new digital composite, just colored green and the Buck Rogers clip just have a cyan/blue tint where it was just black & white/sepia in the original film, if I just could fix those issues maybe using the whole opening from the DC wouldn't be such a bad idea after all.

Edit: I noticed it was maybe a little too sharp, I'll add some blur to it, more samples to come...

Yeah, I'm quite surprised it was used on a Super 8 cover, it was mostly used in early publicity ads etc, you have the droidless artwork in Rinzler's Making of SW, unfortunately it's too small.

I am also looking for it, but have not had any luck so far. :( It's my personal holy grail in SW-artwork. ;)

What's interesting is that the droids were actually added by comic book artist Nick Cardy, apparently he also added little details to the other characters, the same last minute touch-ups were also made on Jung's half-sheet, don't know if it was from the same uncredited artist on that though, they look quite different, and IMO don't fit with Jung's art at all. The original half-sheet art is on the cover of the 1977 theater-program, I will scan it someday.

The Hildebrandts were also told by Lucas to add the droids on their Tom Jung variant in the last minute, that one I have though.

If you don't find it, maybe a little photoshopping will suffice, but it doesn't feel right. ;)

SilverWook, do you want me to upload the DC opening with the old Warner/Kinney logo for you, maybe degraded with applied grain etc. so that you could see for yourself if it will work out or not? Just let me know.

I'm beginning to believe that your version could be just the regular Italian version that was available on video until the cgi version came along, I found a Italian VHS on this site, according to that site the length is approx. 78 min http://www.vhs-store.it/vhs.html?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage-ask.tpl&product_id=9192&category_id=26 I've seen that runtime on other sites as well, maybe the restored original cut never was released on video in Italy.

Already done, erri_wan. ;)

Love this video, a lesson in the art and craft of great filmmaking

http://vimeo.com/5980198

EDIT: does this clip which is from a pre-'04 version have the same Italian dubbing as your TV-version, erri_wan?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxq_lx1Fdwo

I'm going to check if I can find some torrent for L'uomo che fuggì dal futuro (THX 1138), probably just DVD-versions out there, but you never know.

Pretty nice collection of photos over at moviegoods for those interested

http://www.moviegoods.com/movie_product_static.asp?master_movie_id=3657&sku=189083

zombie84 said:

Msycamore: the only difference between the re-release and the German TV is basically the re-ordering of the arrest, which somehow loses a few seconds, and the extended Donald Pleasance scene. No deleted White Limbo stuff, no humour. Nothing close to 4 or 5 minutes, just 45 seconds or so of less footage. So it's not the 1971 American theatrical that is being sought. It is, however, another variant in itself. Which goes to show that between the three known transfers from Italy, Germany and English-speaking countries there were three different cuts of the film. I wonder how many more there are.

Yes, I got that. It was just that I found it interesting that this TV-airing shared those two editing choices this Italian cut have, and due to my bad german I was interested if it shared more similarities as well. But those two was the only thing common?

But I must say that I agree with your thougts on this, zombie, especially after that helpful "Skywalking"- info. For a while there I thought this Italian cut could be the actual 1971 US Theatrical version, (maybe cause I really wanted it to be ;) and also because of the runtime of this cut that is supposed to match its US counterpart) only that it was dubbed and that the opening narration was just an Italian exclusive. Now the question is, is this the original Italian 1971 release? or is it the only Italian version pre-'04 CGI version? or maybe just an International-cut/TV-cut? It's very interesting anyway.

SilverWook said:

Could have sworn I linked to it at the time...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rt=nc&nma=true&item=270647193771&si=x3ytb%252FEKHv4QDdctJOmbgmnM5AY%253D&viewitem=&sspagename=ADME%3AX%3ARTQ%3AUS%3A1123

I think you did, I just couldn't find it, thanks. ;)

SilverWook said:

Puggo has a lot of work to do already. However, I might be able to borrow a 16mm projector from someone else that's been modified for telecine purposes, and do it the cheap nasty way. (Pointing a camcorder at the screen.) This ought to suffice for capturing the logo if nothing else.

Unless I hear back from the seller, it's all hypothetical anyway. I won't commit to anything until I see what's on the betamax tape.

Yes, you're right.

Oh, that sounds great! keep us updated. :)

SilverWook said:

I sent a message to the seller of that 16mm print I passed on back in October. It's full frame and had fading issues, but it's got the original logo. I'm even more curious as to what cut it is now.

Do you have the link to it? It would be interesting to know but if it has fading issues, is it really worth it? It could also end up being very expensive... buy, buy more now and be happy ;) do we have someone able and willing to help transfer a 16mm print? Puggo, perhaps... someone with more knowledge of 16mm film than me could maybe give some thoughts on this.

Also, thanks djsmokingjam for those links, for those who are curious, I posted the English equivalent to that side-by-side comparison between the original cut and "Director's cut" some time ago on page 3 of this thread.

Darth Mallwalker said:

So far I've checked the end of the first reel (See to it personally, Commander. There'll be no one to stop us this time.) and also the end of the reel (You'll have to sell your speeder.) whose glue is seen in the "Look Ma, no shrinkage" screen cap.
In both of those shots, all GOUT frames are present here. By contrast, JSC is missing some frames from the ends of those reels.

Oh, now I see it. Interesting, then this LD may beat the JSC as a smear-free alternative! The picture quality seems to be equal to the JSC, the frame seems to be cropped on all four sides though. It is hard to tell but the colors seems even better in some instances, this is great. :)

That "blue stripe" is certainly easier on the eyes, it would be nice if that is how the other splices look as those glue marks are all over the place in the JSC, it would also be interesting to know if it misses the many frames the JSC do.

LeeThorogood said:

Does anyone know where I can find high quality, preferably widescreen versions of the original trailers for the '77 '80 and '83 releases (ANH, ESB, ROTJ)? Any and all help is appreciated!

Besides the '04 Bonus DVD, there's a nice collection of trailers on Editdroids Special Features preservation DVD's, they are still available on usenet, it includes several ones that wasn't on the official disc.

Thanks, Mallwalker. That sinister chimp-chick was apparently make-up designer Rick Baker's at the time wife Elaine Baker. ;) 

Anyway, I still cannot understand how those scanlines went dissappearing when the GOUT was produced. Any theories?

Thanks zombie for bringing your thoughts on this to the thread instead, as I had not gotten the time to respond to your message yet, my "Robert Duvall's character narration" in the PM was misleading indeed, I simply forgot to mention one of the most important issues, the dubbing. ;)

My german isn't that good either but that german tv-broadcast seems to match SilverWooks descriptions of reordering of scenes, and it also seems to have the same extended Donald Pleasence scene, hmm... could someone perhaps translate those descriptions, please.

Ok, I should mention that I asked, zombie84, if he could check if the book "Skywalking" by Dale Pollock mention anything about the studio interference on THX 1138 and he was kind enough to look into it, here's what he found, not much but very interesting:

It says on p.97 how Warner turned the film over to in-house editor Rudi Fehr:

"Fehr cut only four minutes from THX, mostly scenes in the White Limbo and some of George's bizarre attempts at humor."

Thoughts?

The cropping in the second landspeeder shot also looks different in the JSC, now I am confused, and excited! :)

Darth Mallwalker said:


Look, there's our old friends! Do you recognize them ?

 I don't think these marks are present on the JSC? or am I wrong.

A nice old visual-effects documentary, including great interviews with John Dykstra, Richard Edlund and matte-artist Harrison Ellenshaw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjqk2NwlOqw&feature=related

Never seen this one before, the quality isn't that good though

LeeThorogood said:

As I have previously mentioned I am doing all this work on my iMac so avisynth is not an option for me. I will address your comments about the picture being murky / dull colours when I get home tonight, at work right now and I gotta go...

Ah, ok didn't know that, sorry. Those jaggies in these '93/'95 transfers are really hopeless, don't know if any filters could fix them by not hurting the picture too much, it's hard to tell what looks best by not seeing it in motion of course but I'm leaning towards unfiltered as the picture is already quite soft to begin with. 

Edit: thanks for the answers and explanation, I look forward to see the results, keep up the good work.

Very sad news, damn!

RIP :(

What filter do you use? maybe the avisynth filter EEDI2 will work, I think that's what g-force used in his scripts for the aliasing, those screen-caps do look a bit murky and dull to my eyes, there also seems to be a lack of color but I guess you're not done tweaking that part yet?

"There is a great disturbance in the force" will do fine. :)

Ok, shield generator shot in DC/GOUT- could be an alternate, to me it looks just fucked up

Vader's screen and the conference call holograms in JSC/'92 pan & scan - could just be an resolution thing or an alternate

I guess we will not get any further with this, I haven't checked if the new making of book share some light on this yet.